In Defense of Elite Missions/Alliance Control
Zehnchu
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Originally Posted by SeanHeartstone
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My point with the HoH example was not that it was just as easy to find people to do it, but that the incentive for winning it made it more desirable to attain and more fulfilling when you do win. The same can be said for any system which has a reward for those who do the best.|
It's the same way with the HoH/elite missions: if you have to struggle to attain it, then it becomes all the more satisfying when you get it.
Again you shouldn’t compare the two, one HoH is base on skill so the satisfying enjoyment come from you having to use your brain to you reach the end knowing that you won against real people. Comparing the two “communities”, of alliances who own towns to the other 98.8% who don’t which aren’t happy and are not “enriched”. With each post you make in trying to defend why farming should be rewarded in such way and the imbalance of the new favor system only strengthens the resolve for Anet to change it. If there was a new mission yes it would be improved. Jamski
Suggestions:
1.) Make controlling access to the elite mission actually cost your alliance faction - i.e. your alliance "buys" control of the town for 12 hours or whatever and then loses (spends) the faction they saved up to do so. This lets more guilds have a go at controlling the town. After all, if your alliance is playing the elite mission, they can't be out farming faction, right? Make winning an elite mission give some faction to slightly off-set the cost of buying access. 2.) Add more elite missions to the other controllable towns/outposts to increase access. This could be the same mission for all the non-capital towns, and use existing maps with new creatures/items/objectives to make the whole creation of content much simpler for ANet, or... 3.) Allow all alliances that control a city have access to that faction's elite mission. 4.) Allow Luxon alliances to "buy" access to Kurzick outposts at double the faction cost and then be able to play the Kurzick mission there. And the other way round, of course. 5.) Add Turtle and Mantid pets that can only be charmed during the elite missions attached to the capital cities to maintain their exlcusiveness.
Stockholm
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Originally Posted by trevok
I find it interesting that the same people who complain about not being able to access the Elite missions and that if they pay $50 they should be able to access everything, are the same ones who purposely don't play a huge part of the game, PvP. If you were really concerned about getting your money's worth, why do you intentionally avoid such a huge and crucial aspect of the game? Shouldn't you be playing every aspect of PvP as well? Bit of a contradiction there.
I bought the game for the PvE part, and it says on the box Quote "Enter an epic adventure where EVERY Mission is created for YOU. Play as a stand-alone game, or combine with the original Prophecies campaign for even more ROLEPLAYING options" end quote
PvP is a totally other part of the game, elit missions have nothing to do with PvP, it's PvE and as stated above by A-Net "every mission is created for you". NO NEED TO SAY ANY MORE!!!!!!! Dove_Song
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Originally Posted by trevok
I find it interesting that the same people who complain about not being able to access the Elite missions and that if they pay $50 they should be able to access everything, are the same ones who purposely don't play a huge part of the game, PvP. If you were really concerned about getting your money's worth, why do you intentionally avoid such a huge and crucial aspect of the game? Shouldn't you be playing every aspect of PvP as well? Bit of a contradiction there.
the point is they COULD play PvP if they wanted too....as it is right now the eilite missions are all about faction farms...which IMO is one of the things Anet had going for it...you didn't have to farm to experaince the game in full.
I feel confident this will change soon. Anet is pretty good at listening to their player base. Are we whining because we can't get in ? YES OF COURSE! LOL... fb2000
its really a two-sided dispute, each side has right..
personally i like it this way, there are rare items for the maniac grinders to get.. theres a goal toward which someone might strive (control of capital)and there are (or were, not sure if anet did feck it already) nice drops/chests for the regular players to enjoy.. this is the only way to get at least a portion of players to continue playing pve..........sorry, but if you do this mission on a regular basis, ull grow bored in less than a week... there is not anything to be crafted there, so it cant really be compared to uw/fow... my viewpoint SeanHeartstone
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Originally Posted by Banebow
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It's like tariffs on imported goods. A huge portion of the population pays a small bit for a large benefit to a few. It is a bad idea in economics, and it is a bad idea here. The difference is, here you have people standing up for themselves.
I take this to be an interesting point, but I disagree with it for a few reasons. Firstly, why is it anything like a tariff? The impression I have of tariffs is that the cost of imported goods goes up so as to help local producers be sustainable. I fail to see how this is any way comparable to the GW situation. So on this basis your argument seems a little off.
But to be charitable perhaps you mean that it is wrong for the group of Guild Wars players to pay for an aspect of the game which only a few get to enjoy. Again my response is that this will be true for any sort of reward you introduce into the game. Those who win will necessarily be better off than those who lose. And honestly, I don't find anything wrong with this.
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Originally Posted by Zehnchu
Again you shouldn’t compare the two, one HoH is base on skill so the satisfying enjoyment come from you having to use your brain to you reach the end knowing that you won against real people.
Again I agree with you and think the HoH system is great in terms of rewarding skill. But this doesn't necessarily mean that the elite missions system is bad. In fact, as I mentioned in earlier posts, rewarding farming has always been, imho, a good part of the Guild Wars system and further that much of what goes into having a good alliance is more than having 1000 people just grinding away at farming. But to be charitable perhaps you mean that it is wrong for the group of Guild Wars players to pay for an aspect of the game which only a few get to enjoy. Again my response is that this will be true for any sort of reward you introduce into the game. Those who win will necessarily be better off than those who lose. And honestly, I don't find anything wrong with this.
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Again perhaps I was unclear as to why I was using the HoH example. The only point of using it was to show that having a reward in place for things necessarily implies that some will win and some will lose, i.e. some will benefit and some will be harmed. This will be true of any system based on reward. I wasn't trying to say anything like PvP players shouldn't be rewarded. |
Originally Posted by Banebow
I'd say that there is a big difference between locking me out of "any old mission" and locking me out of "the hardest PvE mission in the game." Now obviously, making the elite missions accessible to anyone without replacing them with something for people to strive for in the control of a town would never work. Huge numbers of ideas abound for a different reward, one possibility would be a weapon crafter who makes perfect weapons/offhands with rare skin X. Being able to craft your own perfect celestial sword is going to be a heck of a lot cheaper than buying one, and don't doubt that you couldn't make a pretty penny crafting and selling them. That's something to strive for, and unlike the current setup, does not cost players without the capital a good portion of the PvE content. A huge number of other ideas (and usually better than this example) exist, just read a few of the threads about it.
I agree here that it is "the hardest PvE mission in the game." And, perhaps, on that basis that will make it a more enjoyable one. (I might say that THK was the hardest mission and many, many people complained that it should be made easier.) But even so this is more of a reason for ANET to make another endgame mission comparable to FoW and UW than for them to make the elite missions accessible to all.
Regarding all the additions/changes suggested I don't atm think anything like having a crafter/the alliance getting money, etc. would be nearly as fulfilling. I cannot speak for the rest of my alliance, but I certainly know that I would stop farming/caring much if that were the case.
JoDiamonds
My only real concern is that a style of play is sort of forced onto players if they want to access "Elite" content. By merely calling it elite, they more or less condone the thought that the style of play required is the right style of play.
I don't want to farm faction. I don't want to be forced to join a huge alliance of gigantic guilds. As far as I can tell, those two things are largely required. I suppose there's some chance I could avoid farming personally by being a freeloaded in a huge alliance of gigantic guilds, but that seems particulalry lame. If the game is meant to be skill based at all, why not reward the guilds that generate the most faction in the smallest amount of playing time. For instance, record scores for some missions (ala Dragon's Throat) and use that as the basis. As is, the goal of the game (if you want to be Elite, which people almost want by definition) seems to be forming gigantic groups of people. I guess I can see why ArenaNet thought this was a good idea (force people into communities which will make the game thrive) but it certainly punishes other kinds of people and gameplay. Personally, I hate the idea of farming in general, and this clearly requires a kind of farming. Finally, I still think that everyone should have access to the so-called elite content some of the time. Allow "better" players (however ANet chooses to define "better") access more often, but let even the lowliest player access that content at least once a month (preferably much more often, like once a week). SeanHeartstone
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Originally Posted by Zehnchu
You really shouldn’t compare the two, but since you did allow me to shoot it down, one there’s no requirement stopping them from getting to HoH. And all players have a chance to make it there, and they are not locked out of HA like the majority of people who are locked out of elite missions. And to add there’s no insane amount of points they have to farm in order to gain access, see the difference? |
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Said reward does not mean much when the only people who get to compete are a tiny fraction of the player base. To continue with the HoH example, winning doesn't mean much when you are the only team fighting, no matter the reward. You have more than one "team" in this case, but not by much, and very few people will ever get to even make an attempt at going for this "reward." HoH, GvG, TA, FoW, UW, RA, all the areas that people tried to be better at than other people, or tried to complete faster than other people, could be entered easily. Not so here. It does not matter how large the incentive to win is when only a tiny portion ever get to compete. Those who win in the face of competition deserve rewards. They should be better off than the people they defeated. But they should have to deal with anyone who decides to make a bid for the reward, not a tiny fraction of people.|
Originally Posted by Zehnchu
Comparing the two “communities”, of alliances who own towns to the other 98.8% who don’t which aren’t happy and are not “enriched”. With each post you make in trying to defend why farming should be rewarded in such way and the imbalance of the new favor system only strengthens the resolve for Anet to change it. If there was a new mission yes it would be improved.
Again this 98.8% statistic. First of all, I sincerely doubt that 98.8% of the community is unhappy with the game because of the way it's set up. Secondly, I mentioned before how I think the community and comraderie which goes on in a significant portion of the game community is quantitative higher than the benefit that would be recieved by opening the mission up. As I mentioned before it is a problem that there is no "end-game" mission accessible to all like UW or FoW, but that does not mean we should sacrifice the elite missions and all their existence creates for that.
Banebow
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Originally Posted by SeanHeartstone
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0.2% get a tangible benefit.
7.8% get the enrichment benefit you mention.
That adds up to 8% total benefit.
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I take this to be an interesting point, but I disagree with it for a few reasons. Firstly, why is it anything like a tariff? The impression I have of tariffs is that the cost of imported goods goes up so as to help local producers be sustainable. I fail to see how this is any way comparable to the GW situation. So on this basis your argument seems a little off.
But to be charitable perhaps you mean that it is wrong for the group of Guild Wars players to pay for an aspect of the game which only a few get to enjoy. Again my response is that this will be true for any sort of reward you introduce into the game. Those who win will necessarily be better off than those who lose. And honestly, I don't find anything wrong with this. I was taking the reason why a tariff is bad and applying it to the current situation. 92% of the guild wars community pays (does NOT get access to the elite missions---tariff equivalent of paying a high price for item X) so that 8% can benefit (gets access/has that sense of community etc---tariff equivalent of staying in business). The loss to each individual player in that 92% is relatively small compared to the gain of each individual in that other 8%. However, access for everyone to elite missions would be a gain to 92% of the community and a loss to 8%. It would, however, be a small loss, since as has been said, the elite mission can be replaced with something that matters less. Yes, it matters less. No, you won't work towards it as hard, some alliances may not work towards it at all. But the overall enjoyment that the average player gets in guild wars will be up, even though a fraction (that 8%) does suffer. You can't make everyone happy, but when you try and make people happy you try and make as many as possible, not a small minority.
Yes, those who win will be better off. Read the first part of this post as to why the current system hardly passes as competition. And then consider why game content should be treated as a coveted prize, rather than as game content.
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But to be charitable perhaps you mean that it is wrong for the group of Guild Wars players to pay for an aspect of the game which only a few get to enjoy. Again my response is that this will be true for any sort of reward you introduce into the game. Those who win will necessarily be better off than those who lose. And honestly, I don't find anything wrong with this. I was taking the reason why a tariff is bad and applying it to the current situation. 92% of the guild wars community pays (does NOT get access to the elite missions---tariff equivalent of paying a high price for item X) so that 8% can benefit (gets access/has that sense of community etc---tariff equivalent of staying in business). The loss to each individual player in that 92% is relatively small compared to the gain of each individual in that other 8%. However, access for everyone to elite missions would be a gain to 92% of the community and a loss to 8%. It would, however, be a small loss, since as has been said, the elite mission can be replaced with something that matters less. Yes, it matters less. No, you won't work towards it as hard, some alliances may not work towards it at all. But the overall enjoyment that the average player gets in guild wars will be up, even though a fraction (that 8%) does suffer. You can't make everyone happy, but when you try and make people happy you try and make as many as possible, not a small minority.
Yes, those who win will be better off. Read the first part of this post as to why the current system hardly passes as competition. And then consider why game content should be treated as a coveted prize, rather than as game content.
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Originally Posted by trevok
Would love to join an Alliance with MATURE player's but do not have TIME TO FARM 24/7|
Originally Posted by SeanHeartstone
Regarding all the additions/changes suggested I don't atm think anything like having a crafter/the alliance getting money, etc. would be nearly as fulfilling. I cannot speak for the rest of my alliance, but I certainly know that I would stop farming/caring much if that were the case.
Yes, you probably would. So would many of the 8% currently getting a benefit. And 92% of the community would get more fulfillment from the game. Is that 8% more important than that 92%?
yuna of spira
Firstly, Banebow and Sean are getting way too far into specifics that have no way of being proved and are getting way way too overworked....just slow down a bit, think, then type.
Secondly, no one has responded to my orginal post about this being PvE's form of GWFC. PvP has an "elite" reward for those who can prove their worth in PvP. Much of what makes up these top guilds is the fact that they gvg a lot together, playing with each other, getting used to each others abilities. Maybe there are some better players out there, who if they got together and played more, could beat Evil or Te or Rifts anyday, but its the way it is, and no one in PvP is really complaining about it. PvE is now getting introduced to something that pits them against others indirectly, whereas before they only had to work against Npc's and what Anet originally designed. If you would stop to realize that maybe you have to work a little harder for "the abslolute best" PvE rewards, just as Evil and Te do, then it can happen. Just because I want a perfect Zodiac monk staff or a Kunnavang or go to the GWFC in Germany just because I bought the game doesnt mean it has to happen. Just take a look at how the PvP game has been with rewards, and then maybe youll realize that this is the way a game is.
JoeKnowMo
This Elite mission junk is an extremely poor idea. If even Gaile is avoiding talking about it, you know it is really backfiring.
People didn't like the idea of favor, so let's make things even worse by limiting access even more Hmm, should I play Fort Aspenwood or Jade Quarry, OR farm Duel of the Houses (Kurz side) or Run the Stuff quest (on Luxon side)? If I want to be elite, I guess that means farm till I die. I want my Skill over Grinding game back. I liked the idea suggested by someone of gaining access to the Elite missions once you've completed all the missions with a Master's reward. Hell, if it also required that you finish every single quest, I'd be up for it too. However, grinding away ad nauseum is not my idea of fun. And I take it the majority of players who prefer GW over other grindfest MMORPGs agree with me. It's bad enough that we were told we'd get as much content as the original game and then we find that Cantha is < 1/3 of Tyria. Now we're told that there is someplace we haven't seen but we have to go braindead farming ad infinitum (Latin is awesome
Racthoh
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Originally Posted by fb2000
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I went to UW and FoW because they were a lot harder than any other area. I could care less about making some pretty armour, it was the challenge I was interested in. I hear 'elite mission' and think "this will be fun" not "ooo pretty new weapons".
People didn't like the idea of favor, so let's make things even worse by limiting access even more
Very. I don't think I know of any PvE player that enjoyed the favor system, and then they introduce this gem. How about we restrict UW and FoW to the alliance that is holding halls as well. 
lennymon
Elite missions are cool, owning towns? cool if a little pointless except for prestige - but still very cool. The comlete limitation of access to the mission - I dont think its cool - perhaps just have a fee (like the 1k to enter UW/FoW) unless you are part of the controlling faction.
Banebow
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Originally Posted by yuna of spira
Secondly, no one has responded to my orginal post about this being PvE's form of GWFC.
I'll take a crack at it, sorry for missing it.
The GWFC has very low "barriers of entry." That is, it is easy to enter the competition for a place in the event. Simply find 7 friends, gather approximately 15k for a guild hall, and you can take a shot at winning. Some players have a higher chance to win than others, and it will likely be mostly the same teams going each time, but everyone had a chance, no one was excluded (barring the guilds that have ANet members in them). I doubt I'll ever compete in one, but at least every season I give my all in an attempt to get in, and I don't feel like I am throwing my time away because someday the team I run with very well may get that high. Access to an elite mission is based on control of a capital. The "barriers of entry" for competition over the control of a town are amazingly high, requiring 200+ people in a group that has farming requirements for every guild in that group. Unlike the GWFC, I know, with a total certainty, that I will never see the inside of an elite mission unless I bribe one of the guild members who controls the town. And not for a lack of skill, but for a lack of simple numbers. In its most basic form competition requires other people, and high "barriers of entry" exclude other people, limiting this competition to the few people in massive alliances. Who knows, tomorrow we may see an upset at the top of the ladder that replaces half the guilds who thought they would be going to the GWFC, but that won't happen with alliance capital control because no one is around to take it from the controller. Actions speak louder than words, and ANet's actions say they believe PvE = farming. If that is true, then the system is perfect, for it rewards farming. But if ANet likes farming, they may as well un-nerf the 55 monk, return griffons to what they used to be, and stop making enemies walk out of aoe's. If ANet believes skill should be the determining factor in both PvP and PvE, then the current system for elite mission control does not support that. This is the point where total silence on the company's part is so utterly frustrating. This is an important thing now, not just because the missions would be fun to enter (you say in your original post that the missions are boring, and they very well may be to everyone) but because future chapters may implement a similar system if no one expresses doubts about the current one.
Thallandor
To the OP, the sense of community is indeed very cool when you are in an alliance that control one of the key towns with access to Elite missions, until you realise that that 10k of factions you farm for the guild that day alone contributes to the a small fraction of the 10% amount thats being deleted when the Faction requirements reached millions as other Alliances starts stepping up the competition and once control is lost, droves of used to be community members start heading off to greener pastures. Unless of course the quota has been raised again per day..... Alliances can be a very fragile glass bowl in this context when the heat starts brewing. Have fun at it while it last.
No Elite missions? 15K armour anyone? I will still be looking forward to those and if Anet choose to make another "expansion" like this one at least we all have this bit of fair warning to go on and can choose to exercise our freedom of choice in consumerism (Rule of consumerism: The customer is always right but the problem is you are not the only one). C3? Northern African terrain,blocky buildings, castles in the sky...rhino like mosters? lol sounds like i wont be looking forward to C3 after all. Edit for spelling
Iori Shozu
Guild wars was supposed to be a game where you could enjoy the community and make friends but could also enjoy spending time going through the game by yourself. Thus they had bots to help the loners. The major draw on the favor system was that there were gamers out there who simply wanted their country to hold favor, if for no other reason than to piss off the other countries who wanted in uw or fow. There were always groups fighting and as groups played more they got better and what do you know started winning favor. If people were that interested in going to uw or fow they would go group at heros and attempt to gain favor, creating more of a chance, the ones who didnt care so much would go off and farm something else. Thus linking the 2.
When factions was announced the ideas that were quickly thrown into our heads would be you choose a side of 2 battleing armies and fight to gain control of those territories. Now in my mind I envisioned guilds owning areas across the board and control changing as to who was on and fighting for control of a territory. If you conqured and moved into a new territory you left one open to be battled for by anyone, and the strongholds would be given to the most dedicated to their side guilds. I also envisioned that you didnt have to be in an owning guild to see benefits as that in your controling areas you would get discounts and have natural strengths against the enemies that spawned in a controled territory if you were alligned with that side, making it easier to travel your own side and harder to travel the opposing. Instead I find a lackluster game based more on charging mobs and "ELITE" missions which are based on :alliance of 1000 members has x members who farm x hours of the day to keep control of main town for elite mission. Allying luxon or kurzick doesnt actually hold any benefit other than free access to that sides traders(otherwise you have to pay the priest at the shrines outside to use that merchant) so a-net basically turned a I farm to get money to get cool items game into a here have our good stuff and instead farm for faction which dont mean crap unless you want that sides armor type game. Why does everyone need to have a perfect 15>50 req9 with whatever on it, shouldnt the better stuff be saved for the people who want to put the effort in to get it. It doesnt really take away from the game if you only have a 11-21 req 12 fiery dragon sword. Perfect mods were out there so the people who put the time and effort in would have something to brag about and show for it. I remember when I started playing I spent 5 hours in pre-searing then left at lvl 7 went outside of ascalon by myself and got owned repeatedly by shatter golems, now they are a joke and I cap mineral springs before I turn lvl 5 occasionally, I hate when games dummy everything down for the less than average players who whine its too hard. P.S. If the elite missions are so hard no pug can get through why not open them up to everyone and at least let them have fun trying? What is anet afraid they might have created another farmable place that people just have to find the right build for? I mean seriously you all have seen that most pugs dont make it through the first areas of uw and fow!!
Zehnchu
SeanHeartstone
Ture, but the still have the chance of getting to the end, the point is they can come and go as freely as they want to. And even if they don’t make it to the end they still get a reword for their work, Fame, Rank and Points for Unlocking upgrades, Rune’s, and skills. So even for them not making it to the end they still have something to show for it even if they don’t win HoH they don’t lose either. With the Region Favor system it rewards player’s who have really nothing to do and want something challenging with HoH being won in which ever Region you are in you can gain access to two elite areas FoW/UW, SoF was some what another reward for players. This was a major complaint before, during, and after the FPE. They even said want at see, I’ve waited and I see that what everyone didn’t like about the system was far worse then what they thought. There is nothing that rewards player who have nothing to challenge them after the end game completed the all missions. What’s even worse is the insane amount of points alliance have to farm for just to get something new and rewarding. So where’s the reward for them? They worked just as hard as everyone else. Let me add to the remark about GW is about rewarding farmers, first off in interview they have said time and time again it’s geared towards the casual gamer. Second they have a strict stance on farming and often ban people who are legit farmers for the own gain, yes it’s more common then you think. So if it’s about rewarding farmers then why take the stance on anti-farming? They have also stated they don’t want to force nor make people feel they have to do something. So can you show me the reward for the casual player who has worked just as hard as other players? Titles are not a reward why because everyone has them. And the casual player is now forced to log countless hours ignoring the “you have been playing for one hour take a break” message just so they can play an elite mission. I don’t think anyone’s going to quit their job just so they can waste hours to get the reward of an elite mission. The comment made about more people have gained access to elite mission more then what people think is either them trying to justify it by trying to blow sun shine where the it’s not supposed to shine. Or you mean to tell me that there’s only five thousand people who play factions and the four thousand where able to get these mission while it’s the screw you to the others you haven’t worked hard enough because you refuse to not to have a life. Don’t get me wrong I think owning a town is cool, and would be fun for a day and a big accomplishment just to have the Guild Emblem and name displayed. And I would still say that the current favor system to the elite missions is the worst idea to ever be implemented. The harm done is that they do not want to reward the casual player. btw I am not a casual player... hasse
1. Ive seen arguments that guildwars is all about skill and not time spent on a certain task, well how do you think you get skilfull? How do guilds accomplish great advancement in guildranks? Why do people claim the favour of the gods im HA? Doesent that mean certain obligations towards your guild / Friends if you want to be a part of it? Nothing new under the sky?
2. Guilds and Alliances have to focus and get really good at what they are doing. Guilds who aim for GvG-ladder play simply now recruit members for that purpouse. Guilds who aim for HA recruit high ranked people for HA-advancement. And Finally those who is really intrested in PvE form high end PvE guilds that join togeather to Monsterous Alliances for this purpouse. 3. The message that is sent is..... its simply impossible for a guild to be best at all 3 points at the same time cause lots of time and effort have to be spent individaully in all three different areas. 4. I think of it as a type of favour (as in ToA) yet its not bounded to a specific server.... Naturally because Alliances would have to invite many friends to form as many parties as possible just because every guildmember / alliancemember would love to participate in theese Missions simply because they all did contribute to the total amount of fractionfarming. Those of us who are in the average guild / alliance we have to settle with ocassional claimage of ex. claim House zu Heltser for a short period of time or participate through friends when a spot is free Ps. Wouldnt it be a great feeling to partisipate in a Elite mission when you know its not a wery common thing? Ds. frickaline
I really think there is no valid defense for the exclusion of others from these 2 special areas. I creates the "E-bayers" environment that seems utterly contrary to the original mission and mentality of Guild Wars.
Welcome back to Diablo II. Engel the Fallen
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Originally Posted by yuna of spira
Secondly, no one has responded to my orginal post about this being PvE's form of GWFC.
I will respond
The problem I see is that this is not like GWFC. According to Gaile the guys in our guild and others are not LEET enough for this mission. According to many our team could not finish this as a guild group. Most already know this is BS. It is not the mission that is the problem but the means of access. In PvP it is pure skill to make it. Anyone can grind enough for 8 skill points to get a PvP build but build means so little. If we took any player and added him to the MEAT core even with a build he would be so totally lost that odds are after a weeks he still would not understand the stuff our core does in PvP. Now take that same random player put him in one of the big alliances and tell him he needs to do x mission 13 times a day and he can easily figure out how to do it. Grinding a mission really does not take much skill at all. Just time. People can hold records for the competitive missions, which would mean they are the best PvE players in that area, yet still not be considered good enough to get into elite missions. The main issue is not that these mission do not require some skill, but skill means nothing to access. By simple logic of ANET now, the most leet players are the bot farmers from China, as they could easily out grind any human playing running a handful of bots in a sweatshop. So through ANET logic bots deserve access to this area more than human players. Which brings the arguement back to what people been saying. This is a matter of time > skill. In PvP time does not equal skill at all, but now for PvE it does. There is no challenge for PvE guys who farm faction, nor will they get any better since PvE is for the most far unchanging and the same stuff over and over again. I can see ANET reward farmers, but don't farmers already get good rewards for there work in perfect rare items that come with the turf?
Yanman.be
My humble opinion:
What if the elite missions were never in the game? No one would have minded , except a few that wanted an equivalent of FoW/UW...just go explore then..you can good drops there too.... Elite missions are a BONUS...A.Net never ever ever stated that Elite missions is what you are paying for. You are paying for GW:Factions, not Elite Missions and GW:F as a bonus. You CAN access the elite missions, all you need to do is WORK FOR IT... I know some of you can't join guilds, have small friend guilds , not enough time etc. That's why I would like to remove the max guilds cap of 10 on alliances...let the smaller ones create 1 big one. Or even better: put a max on faction...let's say you have gathered 10 million, then you're allowed in there. You would still need plenty faction, but now everyone can access it even more. Do I care about elite missions? Not at the moment. Why? I'm having a good time with the rest: AB, GvG, Tombs, Missions, Quests, CA, TA, Titles etc. There's so much to do..go do that instead, and leave Elite Missions for those that want to work for it. ( grind  )
Effendi Westland
questions:
Do any of you know any people who did not want to buy factions and bought it because of the alliance access to elite missions? I know none. Do any of you know any people who wanted to buy factions but decided against it after finding out how the alliance/elite mission system works? I know at least 3. trevok
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Originally Posted by Banebow
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Your analogy is completely flawed.
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The GWFC has very low "barriers of entry." That is, it is easy to enter the competition for a place in the event. Simply find 7 friends, gather approximately 15k for a guild hall, and you can take a shot at winning.
Playing in the GWFC is analogous to doing the elite missions. Playing GvGs all season and trying to win and get better to work your way up the ladder so you can get into the top 20 or whatever so you can have a chance to play in the championship is analogous to stockpiling alliance faction. Any guild can play GvGs and try to finish high in the ladder, not every guild gets rewarded by getting to play in the championship. Any alliance can accumulate faction and try to control a town, not every alliance gets rewarded by getting to play the elite missions. Essentially to transcribe your argument fully, you'd be demanding that every guild should be allowed to go to Leipzig and play in the championships. This would be silly and proves the contradiction in your argument. Why should the guilds who have the most faction not get some kind of high quality exclusive reward? The only argument I've seen is the "I pay $50 I should have access to everything" argument which I've shown to be a contradiction becuase many people choose to avoid playing half the game willingly anyway so they're obviously not concerned about playing every single part of the game to get their money's worth. That being said I don't really like how you get faction right now. I think the idea of doing the same boring quest over and over is ridiculous, and you should only get the faction reward once per quest. Most of your faction should come from doing the challenge missions and alliance battles, or from obtaining titles or something. By the way I'm in an alliance that only has about 60,000 faction so I'm not arguing in favour of my own privilege or anything. SirShadowrunner
FYI:
Another day has gone by and not one faction point added to the Alliance, I predict in about 10 days we will be at zero points and will be at zero for ever. roger out......... p.s. buying all unwanted amber 1k.........
Ate of DK
Sorry for being sarcastic, no harm no anyone... but I couldn't let this go
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lfg "Elite" Player according A-net!!! http://i75.imagethrust.com/images/1X...farming-1.html http://i75.imagethrust.com/images/1X...farming-2.html Can I get into a group now? I'm farming faction with 2 skills. I'm "Elite"  PS. Wanna bet what all these others do there on pic1? Ty, Ate
striderkaaru
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Originally Posted by trevok
Your analogy is completely flawed.
Playing in the GWFC is analogous to doing the elite missions. Playing GvGs all season and trying to win and get better to work your way up the ladder so you can get into the top 20 or whatever so you can have a chance to play in the championship is analogous to stockpiling alliance faction. Any guild can play GvGs and try to finish high in the ladder, not every guild gets rewarded by getting to play in the championship. Any alliance can accumulate faction and try to control a town, not every alliance gets rewarded by getting to play the elite missions. your analogy is flawed as well. as it stands right now, it doesn't matter how big your guild is or how often you play gvg. if you're not any good, you won't make it to the gwfc. you need to be good. you will still need to play often and put in some hard work. but skill is still what determines the reward. it's exactly what anet advertised as skill > grind. the way the elite missions are currently held, you don't have to be any good. you just have to be in a huge guild/alliance that farms tons of faction every day. i'm not saying that the holding alliances aren't any good, but skill isn't the determining factor here. it's time, strength in numbers, and willingness to grind. hence, the elite missions reward grind over skill, which is NOT what anet keeps saying. i somewhat agree to limiting access to the elite missions. however, anet really needs to change the way they are held and stay true to their philosophy of skill > grind.
Banebow
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Originally Posted by trevok
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Any alliance can accumulate faction and try to control a town, not every alliance gets rewarded by getting to play the elite missions.
Dead wrong. Any faction that I put towards my alliance's rating is wasted faction because we don't have the numbers to control a town. We don't compete because we don't have the numbers to compete. We are barred from entry in the competition to control an elite mission town for not being in a thousand-man alliance made up of faction grinders. Is it harder to get one thousand players together than it is to get eight together? I think so, and that is a barrier to entry for control of the capital.
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Originally Posted by Beat_Go_Stick
Complaining that you don't want to play the game and join an alliance with lots of people but should have all the perks of doing so anyway is silly. They made Factions with a bonus for those who DO want to join an active Alliance of a healthy size so that people actually would do so. If you don't want to take part in the game that they have made, then continue to do what you were doing in Prophecies and A.Net will see that their idea of creating this type of system failed.
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PLZ read post #83|
Originally Posted by trevok
Essentially to transcribe your argument fully, you'd be demanding that every guild should be allowed to go to Leipzig and play in the championships.
No. I'm saying that anyone can get a chance to compete for the right to go, and will go if they are skillful enough. Not so with elite missions.
As I said in the original post, if ANet thinks PvE = farming, fine. This system is one of the best for that sort of setup, as it rewards the people who farm a lot. But if ANet does not think PvE is the same thing as grind, then the system is flawed.
Beat_Go_Stick
From what I can tell, the only thing that's really great about these Elite MIssions is the fact that they are hard and have unique skinns that drop, right?
Why is everyone so obsessed with being able to do them? It seems that people are just looking for something to want. If you are looking for something to prove your skill, GvG until you are top10 (which everyone agrees is a matter of skill, not farming) and then join an alliance that would happily accept a top10 Guild (I would bet the OP's Alliance would happily accept you at that point). The fact is, the Elite Missions require more dedication than you may be used to for PvE in Prophecies. It requires playing te game to it's fullest extent (ie. taking part in the new Alliance feature). Complaining that you don't want to play the game and join an alliance with lots of people but should have all the perks of doing so anyway is silly. They made Factions with a bonus for those who DO want to join an active Alliance of a healthy size so that people actually would do so. If you don't want to take part in the game that they have made, then continue to do what you were doing in Prophecies and A.Net will see that their idea of creating this type of system failed. Honestly, the only reason I can see that people want in to these missions is to either play through them once (after which, who knows what they would do) or farm the Elite areas (but they don't want to farm to get there). Consider these missions like FoW armor. There is absolutely NO REASON that requires you to go there and, should you want to do so, you need to go above and beyond just casually playing the game. Now there are Special activites for both PvP and PvE; Championships for PvP/GvG and the Elite Missions for PvE. Saying you don't want to put in the effort to find a healthy alliance with people in it but want to do the Elite Missions is like me saying I don't want to farm gold, ectos, or shards but I want FoW armor. Personally, I will probably never see these missions because I don't want to take the time and commit to getting there any more than I wanted to obtain FoW armor...and that's ok. I am glad people who want to play differently and more hardcore than I do have a little something extra to shoot for. If you play as casually as I do, you probably haven't even found all that the game has to offer yet anyway. I'll probably get flamed for saying this but the whole argument rubs me the same way as seeing a classmate get an extra 2 points on his exam because he talks to the professor and works his situation. He got the points so I should get the points, right? Well they are there for the taking if you want them but they require special effort and a certain dedication to get. Claiming you can't get in for this reason or that reason is an excuse. It's not that you can't, it's that you won't because you don't want to for reasons of your own.
Stockholm
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Originally Posted by Beat_Go_Stick
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Originally Posted by Beat_Go_Stick
Honestly, the only reason I can see that people want in to these missions is to either play through them once (after which, who knows what they would do) or farm the Elite areas (but they don't want to farm to get there). Consider these missions like FoW armor. There is absolutely NO REASON that requires you to go there and, should you want to do so, you need to go above and beyond just casually playing the game.
A-Net have time after time stated that this is not a GRIND GAME
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Honestly, the only reason I can see that people want in to these missions is to either play through them once (after which, who knows what they would do) or farm the Elite areas (but they don't want to farm to get there). Consider these missions like FoW armor. There is absolutely NO REASON that requires you to go there and, should you want to do so, you need to go above and beyond just casually playing the game.
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From what I've read, insane numbers of high level mobs you can't find elsewhere. Sounds like a nice challenge that I would love to take a stab at. Drops? Meh, the consistancy of finding perfect items/upgrades has been increased so it's easier to find a high-end item and make a big sale. |
Originally Posted by Beat_Go_Stick
Claiming you can't get in for this reason or that reason is an excuse. It's not that you can't, it's that you won't because you don't want to for reasons of your own.
I bought this game for enjoyment AND ON THE BOX IT CLEARLY STATES THAT "EVERY MISSIONS IS CREATED FOR YOU" A-NET'S OWN WORDS.
Racthoh
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From what I can tell, the only thing that's really great about these Elite MIssions is the fact that they are hard and have unique skinns that drop, right?
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Then once we actually obtain a town, we have to grind even more since 10% of our faction is taken away at 6 PM~ as is my understanding.
Titles are like FoW armour, you can casually work at them you aren't in competition with anyone in order to keep it.
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First off, there's no need to yell.|
Claiming you can't get in for this reason or that reason is an excuse. It's not that you can't, it's that you won't because you don't want to for reasons of your own.
Some people in my guild have better things to do than farm faction all day, especially since some of them have no interest in the elite missions given the current system. I'm not going to kick them out or join a different guild because the people I have been playing with for months don't like one aspect of the game. Apparently you're not allowed to have a close group of friends and still enjoy the game, you have to have hundreds of able bodies doing the same miserable task hour after hour.
NoHomework
This crap is obviously broken. There have been a number of acceptable fixes suggested by players, all I'm interested in now is seeing what Anets response is. I am also VERY interested in what they were thinking when they created this system. Somebody link me to a statement or something about controlling towns... this is freaking guild wars! From the blurbs on the box and guildwars.com about controlling towns I would never have expected this trash.
Where was the foresight? This is like somebody from the everquest development team came over and wrote up the town control system for anet.
Beat_Go_Stick
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Originally Posted by Stockholm
Would love to join an Alliance with MATURE player's but do not have TIME TO FARM 24/7 A-Net have time after time stated that this is not a GRIND GAME I bought this game for enjoyment AND ON THE BOX IT CLEARLY STATES THAT "EVERY MISSIONS IS CREATED FOR YOU" A-NET'S OWN WORDS. |
Ok. Post #83 agrees with me. Not to mention I think that, a couple months down the line, I highly doubt the farming will be as competitive as it is now and entrance to the Elite Missions will either be more reachable or A.Net will adjust the requirements for entrance. You want access now now now? You are going to have the same problem I had with Runes (ie. competing with people willing to do a lot more than I am to get what they want in this game). Fact of the matter is I play casually and it shows since I have yet to do the other things in this game. If you complain about not having time to grind yet still want to get into these missions now now now, I don't see how you consider yourself a casual player.
You don't want to grind? I don't either. The difference is I don't care to do the things that have an blatent enforced grind imposed on them. The "grind" that A.Net refers to is the grind that comes with most MMO's requiring you to play endlessly in order to be PvP compatable. The lack of this "grind" is the ability to create a lvl 20 character of any class using any skill you have unlocked and play competitively on an equal level with those who play the game 24/7. In other games, the "grind" is being able to PvP. In GW, the "grind" is optional.
As for the whole "every mission is created for you!" thing, the first thing that comes to my mind when you say that is 'this game is instanced', not 'wow! they tailored every mission for me!
' Maybe just a difference in our viewpoints. Maybe a poor choice of wording on their part. Who knows? Regardless, I would ask you this: If you bought this game for enjoyment, do you really think this one mission is going to make or break your fun? Are you having fun now? If not, after only 1-2 weeks of play, will one mission supply the fun you are currently unable to have? Is this one mission your reason for buying this game?Quote:
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Originally Posted by Racthoh
From what I've read, insane numbers of high level mobs you can't find elsewhere. Sounds like a nice challenge that I would love to take a stab at. Drops? Meh, the consistancy of finding perfect items/upgrades has been increased so it's easier to find a high-end item and make a big sale.
In no way is an elite mission like FoW armour. Elite missions are basically competitive farming, where the most efficient are the only ones who will prosper. Players could happily takes months and months of casual gameplay to eventually get their FoW armour. Now unless my alliance's grinding is better than your alliance's grinding, we're just wasting our time. Then once we actually obtain a town, we have to grind even more since 10% of our faction is taken away at 6 PM~ as is my understanding. Titles are like FoW armour, you can casually work at them you aren't in competition with anyone in order to keep it. Some people in my guild have better things to do than farm faction all day, especially since some of them have no interest in the elite missions given the current system. I'm not going to kick them out or join a different guild because the people I have been playing with for months don't like one aspect of the game. Apparently you're not allowed to have a close group of friends and still enjoy the game, you have to have hundreds of able bodies doing the same miserable task hour after hour. I agree that it sounds like a great challenge, Racthoh, and I would love to join you in challenging myself with it. The drops would not be my motivation to do it either as I pretty much already have everything I need or want in this game. I did not mean to say the Elite Missions are like FoW armor, perse, more like FoW armor is to Prophecies as Elite Missions are to Factions (SAT's, gotta love 'em). *shrug* Maybe it was a bad analogy...I'm not too attached to it. All your logic is sound and only time will tell how this ends up working out but I do see that A.Net intentionally created motivation to combine small groups of friends into Allied groups of groups of friends. I don't think you should have to kick anyone from your group but I also have a hard time believing that you would have a rough time finding a full sized Alliance to join with if you wanted to do so. That's the kicker, right there. You keep talking about kicking people out of your Guild or leaving your Guild, but it's not supposed to be as much about Guilds anymore. It's supposed to be about Alliances. Now it may be that they need to rethink how the Alliance maximums are calculated and how quickly their Faction score depletes itself daily depending on circumstances they did not take into account before release, but that doesn't necessrily make the whole thing such a bad idea. *shrug* I guess what I am trying to say is that it's very possible that in 1 months time, you will have found an alliance of good people, some of who PvE obsessively, some who PvP madly, and some who play casually. With a motivated Leader Guild, you may have 8-10 Guilds together and about 150-300 people total (maybe? My Guild isn't huge but we have about 20-30 active members, from casual to hardcore), and if each person saves up their faction over the course of a couple weeks you would have a very potent faction spike. Give it time, branch out like you did when the game first started and meet some new good people who aren't in your Guild and, rather than inviting them to defect to your side, propose an alliance between your two guilds and see what happens. Try the system out a little before deciding it needs to be instantly changed back to something we recognize and is in our current "safety zone". I have the misfortune of having had the guild I am a member of (and have enjoyed being a member of) being sold to some dude recently. I don't know why our leader did that but, as a result, the guild is dying. It's a shame and, for that reason, I'm not expecting to be able to find a new Guild AND a new Alliance anytime soon but I really do think this system could work if people give it a chance instead of just focussing on the fact that they have to do things differently now for it to work. EDIT: ps - I've been posting while working here so forgive and derailed thoughts you may find
Ruby Lightheart
I think the elite missions should be available to everyone whom has fully completed the game by doing every single mission available to them and collected all the elite skills for their primary profession. That to me is truely elite.
I am against any system that allows only two guilds to do elite missions. This game is supposed to be about skill..not who can farm the most faction to get ontop.
Ohtar Nimloth
My primary issue is a common theme among those of us that are not currently owning a town and that is that people believe that thier small guild/alliance should have the same opportunities as larger guilds/alliances.
im not going to complain about the current state of the game, the mechanics, the grind or any other thing i have no controll over, but what i am going to do is asses the things we do have control over. we do have control over the size of our guilds and the alliances we join or create. The alliances that own the towns do so because they choose to do what it takes to own the town. The fact that a small guild/alliance will have to work very hard to own a town can be overcome...just dont have a small guild/alliance....everyone who complains about the system claims that they are in a good smaller guild and say that thier chances have been taken away. Why dont all of us smaller guilds who claim to be good just put aside our differneces and work for the common good. This forum has a strong community if we put forth the effort to take a town that we do in critisizing and debating we wouldnt even be discussing this. as far as people with access to "elite" areas actually being "Elite"...all i can say is im sure many of us consider ourselves elite enough to have access, but actions speek louder than words...so lets stop wasting time discussing these issues and do something about it...anyone interested in setting up a guild or alliance just give me a tell... Illusion Air
it not hard to setup a large guild but large guild is not suitable b/c there will be alot of drama. Pvp/gvg guild will never have alot of people b/c the fight for time to play will rift the guild apart.
for the alliance system atm you can make any alliance and ask every random people to join your alliance with them offer 10k faction per person and max out your alliance with 1000 member allthough you wont know anyone and dont care about anyone in it just that you get enough faction to hold the capital. 10k faction per person and with max out alliance that 1 mill faction that just to show shear number > skills
Racthoh
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Originally Posted by Beat_Go_Stick
All your logic is sound and only time will tell how this ends up working out but I do see that A.Net intentionally created motivation to combine small groups of friends into Allied groups of groups of friends. I don't think you should have to kick anyone from your group but I also have a hard time believing that you would have a rough time finding a full sized Alliance to join with if you wanted to do so. That's the kicker, right there. You keep talking about kicking people out of your Guild or leaving your Guild, but it's not supposed to be as much about Guilds anymore. It's supposed to be about Alliances. Now it may be that they need to rethink how the Alliance maximums are calculated and how quickly their Faction score depletes itself daily depending on circumstances they did not take into account before release, but that doesn't necessrily make the whole thing such a bad idea.
*shrug* I guess what I am trying to say is that it's very possible that in 1 months time, you will have found an alliance of good people, some of who PvE obsessively, some who PvP madly, and some who play casually. With a motivated Leader Guild, you may have 8-10 Guilds together and about 150-300 people total (maybe? My Guild isn't huge but we have about 20-30 active members, from casual to hardcore), and if each person saves up their faction over the course of a couple weeks you would have a very potent faction spike. Give it time, branch out like you did when the game first started and meet some new good people who aren't in your Guild and, rather than inviting them to defect to your side, propose an alliance between your two guilds and see what happens. Then they shouldn't have linked the games if the concepts from the first chapter mean nothing in the second. I don't think Anet considered the fundamental's of a close-knit community when they introduced these elite missions as they are geared towards larger guilds. Perhaps the challenge missions are for the smaller guilds, but I don't see why larger guilds should get one extra thing just because they have a different backbone in their guild structure. Regardless of guild size (to an extent, you needed 8 for GvG) you could reap all of the benefits of Chapter 1, why this was changed for Chapter 2 is again beyond logic. Seems like Alliances are a bigger deal than Factions, which is kinda funny when you consider the alliance system wasn't even working when the game was released. Maybe if faction gained was relative to the guild size, it would cater to all forms of play. But, there would be some problems as with every system but it would show Anet does favor any sized guild.
Iori Shozu
I'm suddenly reminded of the uber clans in many other mmos where you barely knew anybody and cries for help in areas were often overlooked do to excessive banther being spouted across the chat from shittalkers. Anyways the beauty of guildwars was you could have a small guild of friends who worked together and not worry about missing out on content because you didnt have enough people to enter certain areas. Ive noticed the tighter knit a guild the better they play together anyways so if the elite missions seem hard maybe its because of lack of communication, they need another player and pick up an idiot whammo ettin farmer cuz he is free and really wants to go then he screws the whole mission for the group and gets kicked from the guild for being an idiot.
People dont complete alot of the game cuz it is simple grinding and not needed for their main focus they like to do, everyone has their own interest some like to complete everything they can run across, some like the challenge of harder areas like uw, while others like ot play with groups and make friends. Now why should these people be held back from enjoying certain aspects of the game just because they dont grind like the 1000 people in your guild. Why make them do daunting task that they will find no pleasure in doing to be able to do something they want to do( like say making them uncover ever spot on the map or cap every skill?? I like to find difficult areas and try to solo them different ways there was no reason for me to cover the entire jungle cuz it wasnt prosperous and if I could take out the first few groups well chances are I could take out alot more, and I usually grind the hell out of games I mean I had 2 max knights of the round tables on ff7 if thats not grind nothing is. However I think the biggest reason alot of people want high level content and not to scour every hole in gw is because the lack of charachter building. I mean once you reach level 20 there is no more charachter building other than new items and skills which 90% of them are rarely ever used. Simple fact is nothing in pve really requires skill well accept keeping retard groups alive, other than that everything can become second nature with repetition as ai only thinks in certain paterns. Raulence
Well, if factions is the only thing to control a town, i guess we will never have a chance to control the capital and do the elite mission.
The factions of black blade is increasing so fast at a speed of 1 million per day. I dount any guild will have the chance to speed so fast to catch up with them. If the system will never refresh or reset the factions. There is only one alliance can play the etile mission. Guild wars: factions should be renamed like "The Black Blade factions" I don't say The black blade is bad or somthing else, ii am sure that they play very hard to maintain their previledge to control the capital. They play hard, work hard on factions. They have the right to do elite missions. Hoever, the fact is if this situation goes on, no long, there will be only 2 alliance who can do elites in the whole game forever. If Anet will not do anything about the system, i dount seriouly about how far is the game going on? How many players will feel bored about the game? How many people will buy chapter 3?
Stockholm
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Originally Posted by Beat_Go_Stick
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Quote: Originally Posted by Beat_Go_Stick As for the whole "every mission is created for you!" thing, the first thing that comes to my mind when you say that is 'this game is instanced', not 'wow! they tailored every mission for me! No I take that as every mission is acceseble to every player.
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Originally Posted by Beat_Go_Stick
If you bought this game for enjoyment, do you really think this one mission is going to make or break your fun? Are you having fun now? If not, after only 1-2 weeks of play, will one mission supply the fun you are currently unable to have? Is this one mission your reason for buying this game?
I think it affects the game play, yes. The missions on both sides after the capitols are very empty and hard to find groups in, while the outposts where faction quests are, are full of ppl, seams like ppl are too busy farming factions, just like Warcamp if you try to get a group for SF quest's.
And farming has allways been condemd by A-Net before and now it is being promoted. In my opinion the whole system with factions has backfired. But perhaps I can go back and finish the SF quest's now when greens no longer is being farmd. And sorry for yelling but sometimes a little yelling is needed. frickaline
I don't understand how you can buy a game, pay real money, and not be allowed to play a very special portion of it. You know that significant development time was invested in the creation of "The Deep" for example. And the vast majority of players will never, ever see it.
Is that where my factions payment went? To pay for an area of the game I MAY NEVER SEE?!?! I can tell you this: a lot of people would love to have the ability to donate all their faction to an alliance that just opened up this area to everyone. |