MM.... why all the hate
Carinae
Quote:
Originally Posted by xenoranger
[list][*]MINION NUMBER ADJUSTMENT
Now.. a single MM could easily have 63 minions (usage of horrors and fiends) pre-adjustement. They could also be maintained for quite a while. (some say 6 min, I had them running a bit longer in some cases) Cutting the number of minions you can manage at once was a nerf. Otherwise you could use the Offering of Blood + Vampiric horrors + verata's sacrifice to be an invinci-necro. Just think about an alliance battle. You have an MM killing and making new minions with every kill.All you need is arcane echo, and you can make new VHorrors pretty quick. Plus, keeping them alive woudln't have been too hard. So, a warrior attacks you and does 28 damage (I think that's max). You have 2 Vhorrors doing 18 damage. That's 36 energy regained. The warrior would have to seriously be using skills and degen to keep you down b/c the average MM (pre adjustment) would carry 16+ minions. If you casted mainly VHorrors, you'd own without ever going down. Just, Offering of Blood, and you get teh boost to recast. I have been an outspoken critic of the nerfing, apparently that makes me a wannbe.
Was 40-50 minions too much? Maybe. Probably.
But invincible? Come on! We were certainly killable. There is an enitre (rarely used) skill line for hurting MMs. There are tactics availabe both offensively and defensively against MM's.
But you had to know HOW to go about attacking a MM. The strategies for dealing with MMs were very different from people were used to dealing with. Sure, we could wipe Warriors and Assassains all day if they played Rambo.
I still resent the fact that time wasn't alottted for the community to learn how to play AGAINST a minion master....and then make adjustments, as necessary.
Now.. a single MM could easily have 63 minions (usage of horrors and fiends) pre-adjustement. They could also be maintained for quite a while. (some say 6 min, I had them running a bit longer in some cases) Cutting the number of minions you can manage at once was a nerf. Otherwise you could use the Offering of Blood + Vampiric horrors + verata's sacrifice to be an invinci-necro. Just think about an alliance battle. You have an MM killing and making new minions with every kill.All you need is arcane echo, and you can make new VHorrors pretty quick. Plus, keeping them alive woudln't have been too hard. So, a warrior attacks you and does 28 damage (I think that's max). You have 2 Vhorrors doing 18 damage. That's 36 energy regained. The warrior would have to seriously be using skills and degen to keep you down b/c the average MM (pre adjustment) would carry 16+ minions. If you casted mainly VHorrors, you'd own without ever going down. Just, Offering of Blood, and you get teh boost to recast. I have been an outspoken critic of the nerfing, apparently that makes me a wannbe.
Was 40-50 minions too much? Maybe. Probably.
But invincible? Come on! We were certainly killable. There is an enitre (rarely used) skill line for hurting MMs. There are tactics availabe both offensively and defensively against MM's.
But you had to know HOW to go about attacking a MM. The strategies for dealing with MMs were very different from people were used to dealing with. Sure, we could wipe Warriors and Assassains all day if they played Rambo.
I still resent the fact that time wasn't alottted for the community to learn how to play AGAINST a minion master....and then make adjustments, as necessary.
Nitradamus
Do you recomend buying the minion master armour?
Another question: Is it posible to cap Flesh Golem on a Tyrian Necromancer? I have gotten my
necro to Cantha, but the map is different from the map on my canthan characters.
Another question: Is it posible to cap Flesh Golem on a Tyrian Necromancer? I have gotten my
necro to Cantha, but the map is different from the map on my canthan characters.
Hemophiliac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitradamus
Do you recomend buying the minion master armour?
Another question: Is it posible to cap Flesh Golem on a Tyrian Necromancer? I have gotten my
necro to Cantha, but the map is different from the map on my canthan characters. yup you can cap it with a Tyrian Necro, the map is really the same expect for you either get Vizunah Square (local) for a Canta character or Vizunah Square (Foreign) for a Tyrian character. Either way 'Rhial The Bone Dancer' is in the same spot, which can be a pain to get to......
Another question: Is it posible to cap Flesh Golem on a Tyrian Necromancer? I have gotten my
necro to Cantha, but the map is different from the map on my canthan characters. yup you can cap it with a Tyrian Necro, the map is really the same expect for you either get Vizunah Square (local) for a Canta character or Vizunah Square (Foreign) for a Tyrian character. Either way 'Rhial The Bone Dancer' is in the same spot, which can be a pain to get to......
xenoranger
Meh.. I find revenant armor is better than MM armor. Just preference.
Iwouldn't use MM armor b/c even though you can get a +15 to AL with 5+ minions, it doesn't do a whole lot for your defense in the long run.
And.. BTW, Yes, 56 minions. I was never touched. I managed 25 minions in a GvG (Animate Minions) and we won b/c I kept using them to clog respawn points. Again, never touched in that battle.
The reduction of minions seperates the wannabes. If you can't make the new system work, then you just wannabe an MM. Once you can get it to work, then you are an MM.
Iwouldn't use MM armor b/c even though you can get a +15 to AL with 5+ minions, it doesn't do a whole lot for your defense in the long run.
And.. BTW, Yes, 56 minions. I was never touched. I managed 25 minions in a GvG (Animate Minions) and we won b/c I kept using them to clog respawn points. Again, never touched in that battle.
The reduction of minions seperates the wannabes. If you can't make the new system work, then you just wannabe an MM. Once you can get it to work, then you are an MM.
Kijik Oni Hanryuu
nice way to say it xeno, well uh time for my two cents. Ok I think that the best minions combo is golem,VHorr, and horr for full body block, when I had a full regimen of minions up the monks didnt get touched except by those darned teleporting assassins>.< they are definitely anti-mm (tele behind minions party proceed shanking MM), also the MMs also got a new strength,damage dealing, well here is my build
Death Magic:16(12+1+3)
Soul Reaping:14(12+2)
Deathly Swarm
Deathly Chill
Bitter Chill
BoTM
Horror
Vhorror
Golem
Res(or Verat's AUra for PvP)
I find one enemy spam bitter chill until he has lower health than me, use deathly chill, then deathly swarm rinse and repeat, then raise golem, do this to the next few guys make minions build momentum and begin plowage.
I find that I can manage energy fairly well by going Vhorr, then two horrs then Vhorr again, and when there are no corpses I make my own
Well gl to all ye MMs.
Death Magic:16(12+1+3)
Soul Reaping:14(12+2)
Deathly Swarm
Deathly Chill
Bitter Chill
BoTM
Horror
Vhorror
Golem
Res(or Verat's AUra for PvP)
I find one enemy spam bitter chill until he has lower health than me, use deathly chill, then deathly swarm rinse and repeat, then raise golem, do this to the next few guys make minions build momentum and begin plowage.
I find that I can manage energy fairly well by going Vhorr, then two horrs then Vhorr again, and when there are no corpses I make my own
Well gl to all ye MMs.
xenoranger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kijik Oni Hanryuu
nice way to say it xeno, well uh time for my two cents. Ok I think that the best minions combo is golem,VHorr, and horr for full body block, when I had a full regimen of minions up the monks didnt get touched except by those darned teleporting assassins>.< they are definitely anti-mm (tele behind minions party proceed shanking MM), also the MMs also got a new strength,damage dealing, well here is my build
Death Magic:16(12+1+3)
Soul Reaping:14(12+2)
Deathly Swarm
Deathly Chill
Bitter Chill
BoTM
Horror
Vhorror
Golem
Res(or Verat's AUra for PvP)
I find one enemy spam bitter chill until he has lower health than me, use deathly chill, then deathly swarm rinse and repeat, then raise golem, do this to the next few guys make minions build momentum and begin plowage.
I find that I can manage energy fairly well by going Vhorr, then two horrs then Vhorr again, and when there are no corpses I make my own
Well gl to all ye MMs.
Hmm.....
Honestly, I hate MM's that use fiends and Vhorrors. It's stupid if you have a golem b/c you can't use Offering of Blood to help with the energy cost.
I use a Blood Death Mix.. but if I go pure death (like you are) I use different skills.
Have you tried Taste of Pain? Excellent HP management when you have VHorrors. Just find an enemy that's getting swarmed, adn as soon as he's below 50% HP, hit taste of pain.
I also bring Soul Feast. Sure it kills a corpse, but it also heals me when monks are too lazy or AI is failing.
Another helpful hint is Well of Suffering. If you have that active and your minions have an enemy trapped in the well, even Lassie can't save them.
Rotting Flesh is a nice openning move for PvE, but not PvP.
I'll have to post my Dual MM Build sometime. I have a nice build that supports 2 golems and makes a near invincible horde.
BTW, Kijik Oni Hanryuu...
I will have to say that Death Swarm isn't that useful. The problem is that it does nice damage but a 3 sec casting time is too long. I usually just spam BotM. That keeps minions killing for a while. Plus I try to make my horde Vhorror heavy. 9 Vhorrors damaging enemies is some nice HP recovery. Even monks cant' keep up with that (generally speaking). And Pickles (my golem's name) is a really nice tank.
Death Magic:16(12+1+3)
Soul Reaping:14(12+2)
Deathly Swarm
Deathly Chill
Bitter Chill
BoTM
Horror
Vhorror
Golem
Res(or Verat's AUra for PvP)
I find one enemy spam bitter chill until he has lower health than me, use deathly chill, then deathly swarm rinse and repeat, then raise golem, do this to the next few guys make minions build momentum and begin plowage.
I find that I can manage energy fairly well by going Vhorr, then two horrs then Vhorr again, and when there are no corpses I make my own
Well gl to all ye MMs.
Hmm.....
Honestly, I hate MM's that use fiends and Vhorrors. It's stupid if you have a golem b/c you can't use Offering of Blood to help with the energy cost.
I use a Blood Death Mix.. but if I go pure death (like you are) I use different skills.
Have you tried Taste of Pain? Excellent HP management when you have VHorrors. Just find an enemy that's getting swarmed, adn as soon as he's below 50% HP, hit taste of pain.
I also bring Soul Feast. Sure it kills a corpse, but it also heals me when monks are too lazy or AI is failing.
Another helpful hint is Well of Suffering. If you have that active and your minions have an enemy trapped in the well, even Lassie can't save them.
Rotting Flesh is a nice openning move for PvE, but not PvP.
I'll have to post my Dual MM Build sometime. I have a nice build that supports 2 golems and makes a near invincible horde.
BTW, Kijik Oni Hanryuu...
I will have to say that Death Swarm isn't that useful. The problem is that it does nice damage but a 3 sec casting time is too long. I usually just spam BotM. That keeps minions killing for a while. Plus I try to make my horde Vhorror heavy. 9 Vhorrors damaging enemies is some nice HP recovery. Even monks cant' keep up with that (generally speaking). And Pickles (my golem's name) is a really nice tank.
Nitradamus
Im having a hard time capping Flesh golem. Does anyone have advice?
Carinae
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitradamus
Im having a hard time capping Flesh golem. Does anyone have advice?
Leave Senji's north exit
Turn right
Cross bridge (hard battle here with a Rit boss)
Go straight north about 4 inches on the map
There is a big brown square when the FG boss is.
The boss is on the West side of the square.
Turn right
Cross bridge (hard battle here with a Rit boss)
Go straight north about 4 inches on the map
There is a big brown square when the FG boss is.
The boss is on the West side of the square.
BanaXX
For all you people who are still asking about the bone spiral rod and bleached skull 20/20.
They are found in VasBurg Armory. You can buy it from there. Also the bleached skull also exists as a collector's item in House of Zu Heltzer.
Thx,
BanaXX
They are found in VasBurg Armory. You can buy it from there. Also the bleached skull also exists as a collector's item in House of Zu Heltzer.
Thx,
BanaXX
Shinigami God
I personally think the update was a buff and a nerf at the same time, but really it just made the MM a fair build. Before the nerf, if you have 80 minons, you're not gonna get touched, and if you do you may wanna get checked for mental damage. But the addition of golems increased MM proficiency a lot, because they are invincible (to an extent, just make a new one when the old one dies 
) and are really better than a pet, doing 50 damage a hit on average (unless you focus your build on pet attacks, but then you yourself are much less useful.) I don't like vamp horrors simply because of the 25 energy, I like my fiendys very much and I find the range helps them stay alive while I BotM them. My build is as follows:
1. Bone Horrors
2. Bone Fiends
3. BotM
4. Verata's Sacrifice
5. Flesh Golem
6. Death Nova
7. Taste of Death or Heal Area
8. Res (PvE) or Verata's Aura (PvP)
But usually in pvp I go mass degen, but this is a different story. Anyway, not a nerf people, it'd be cool to have 80 golems out but guess what? The Necro would be more common than the W/Mo.
) and are really better than a pet, doing 50 damage a hit on average (unless you focus your build on pet attacks, but then you yourself are much less useful.) I don't like vamp horrors simply because of the 25 energy, I like my fiendys very much and I find the range helps them stay alive while I BotM them. My build is as follows:1. Bone Horrors
2. Bone Fiends
3. BotM
4. Verata's Sacrifice
5. Flesh Golem
6. Death Nova
7. Taste of Death or Heal Area
8. Res (PvE) or Verata's Aura (PvP)
But usually in pvp I go mass degen, but this is a different story. Anyway, not a nerf people, it'd be cool to have 80 golems out but guess what? The Necro would be more common than the W/Mo.
BaseKid
I personally like the update...and you dont need offering of blood in a build to help with energy cost. Of course, it was fun controlling a ton of minions instead of ten, but hey, it was right of Anet to do. (OMFG i just said it =/)
First off, if you dont have golems, this is the build i use:
N/E, 16 death 13 soul
Glyph of Renewal [E]
Veratas Sacrafice
BotM
Bone Fiends
Bone Horrors (dont like Vamp horrors because 25 energy to heal me and not the minion? nty)
Glyph of lesser energy
death nova/rotting flesh
Rez
^this makes the nerf of veratas sacrafice more bearable, and minions can last quite a long time in comparison to most builds floating around without golems.
With Golems:
well...here there is a couple options. You can go to a risky MM build where you control more than one flesh golem:
N/Mo
16 death, 13 soul
Bone Fiends
Bone Horrors
BotM
Veratas sac
Flesh Golem
Veratas Aura
Contemplation of Purity
Rebirth/rez
...this in my opinion is really risky, and suspectable to enchantment removal at the wrong time (if you get what i mean...cop is the key to this build)
or just make a plain MM (16 death, 13 soul- a common pattern isn't it?)
Flesh Golem (recyclable, just for u)
Bone Horror
Bone Fiend
Veratas Sac
BotM
Death Nova
Rotting Flesh
Rez
of course, these are what i like to play, and change skills depending on where i want to and who I'm facing.
MM is one of those things that are easy to run, and can vary in skills. However, OoB in my opinion is a waste of time. Especially when u get 10 minions..u can recycle minions and gain energy that way. These are mainly pve builds...in pvp i use similar to the post above
First off, if you dont have golems, this is the build i use:
N/E, 16 death 13 soul
Glyph of Renewal [E]
Veratas Sacrafice
BotM
Bone Fiends
Bone Horrors (dont like Vamp horrors because 25 energy to heal me and not the minion? nty)
Glyph of lesser energy
death nova/rotting flesh
Rez
^this makes the nerf of veratas sacrafice more bearable, and minions can last quite a long time in comparison to most builds floating around without golems.
With Golems:
well...here there is a couple options. You can go to a risky MM build where you control more than one flesh golem:
N/Mo
16 death, 13 soul
Bone Fiends
Bone Horrors
BotM
Veratas sac
Flesh Golem
Veratas Aura
Contemplation of Purity
Rebirth/rez
...this in my opinion is really risky, and suspectable to enchantment removal at the wrong time (if you get what i mean...cop is the key to this build)
or just make a plain MM (16 death, 13 soul- a common pattern isn't it?)
Flesh Golem (recyclable, just for u)
Bone Horror
Bone Fiend
Veratas Sac
BotM
Death Nova
Rotting Flesh
Rez
of course, these are what i like to play, and change skills depending on where i want to and who I'm facing.
MM is one of those things that are easy to run, and can vary in skills. However, OoB in my opinion is a waste of time. Especially when u get 10 minions..u can recycle minions and gain energy that way. These are mainly pve builds...in pvp i use similar to the post above
ajmorgan25
Hey, I was thinking about making an MM myself. I just want to know something. When you have a bunch of minions out, how hard is it to keep them all healed? Because I started one, but in the beginning of the game since they were so low of levels it was hard to keep them healed. Does it get easier later on in the game??
Manic Smile
Quote:
Originally Posted by xenoranger
Meh.. I find revenant armor is better than MM armor. Just preference.
Iwouldn't use MM armor b/c even though you can get a +15 to AL with 5+ minions, it doesn't do a whole lot for your defense in the long run.
And.. BTW, Yes, 56 minions. I was never touched. I managed 25 minions in a GvG (Animate Minions) and we won b/c I kept using them to clog respawn points. Again, never touched in that battle.
The reduction of minions seperates the wannabes. If you can't make the new system work, then you just wannabe an MM. Once you can get it to work, then you are an MM. so your apponent was unpreparied...one case does not prove your point...not to mention your were more exploiting a map design flaw then anything camping is always a problem. Having played MM for a long time I can tell you right now there are many weaknesses.
The new MM build is so easy to use it's laughable...I mean it's on the level of bonder in a keg party...rense and reuse all day.
And VS is still teh broken...
Iwouldn't use MM armor b/c even though you can get a +15 to AL with 5+ minions, it doesn't do a whole lot for your defense in the long run.
And.. BTW, Yes, 56 minions. I was never touched. I managed 25 minions in a GvG (Animate Minions) and we won b/c I kept using them to clog respawn points. Again, never touched in that battle.
The reduction of minions seperates the wannabes. If you can't make the new system work, then you just wannabe an MM. Once you can get it to work, then you are an MM. so your apponent was unpreparied...one case does not prove your point...not to mention your were more exploiting a map design flaw then anything camping is always a problem. Having played MM for a long time I can tell you right now there are many weaknesses.
The new MM build is so easy to use it's laughable...I mean it's on the level of bonder in a keg party...rense and reuse all day.
And VS is still teh broken...
.defekt
I find N/E is really good for MM. I use all the regular MM skills, and Glyph of Lesser Energy (for Golem) and Ward vs Melee. Works out quite well.
xenoranger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manic Smile
so your apponent was unpreparied...one case does not prove your point...not to mention your were more exploiting a map design flaw then anything camping is always a problem. Having played MM for a long time I can tell you right now there are many weaknesses.
The new MM build is so easy to use it's laughable...I mean it's on the level of bonder in a keg party...rense and reuse all day.
And VS is still teh broken...
There are too many weaknesses to an MM, so yes, you can easily defeat one. That's why I refer to MM as the lowest form of Necromancing. Although I've prided myself for long in using MM, I've always found that it's a pretty weak build.
As far as that one instance, that's 1 out of a few. Dragging a zerg of minions into a spawn point really hurts the enemy's ability to fight back. They rez, then are forced into a fight. It was quite an effective strat. Then the MM Adjustement made it so minions are more expected in GvG and PvP. Now, everyone brings atleast 1 anti-MM skill.
The adjustment did improve MMing, but it also made MM's easier to take down.
The new MM build is so easy to use it's laughable...I mean it's on the level of bonder in a keg party...rense and reuse all day.
And VS is still teh broken...
There are too many weaknesses to an MM, so yes, you can easily defeat one. That's why I refer to MM as the lowest form of Necromancing. Although I've prided myself for long in using MM, I've always found that it's a pretty weak build.
As far as that one instance, that's 1 out of a few. Dragging a zerg of minions into a spawn point really hurts the enemy's ability to fight back. They rez, then are forced into a fight. It was quite an effective strat. Then the MM Adjustement made it so minions are more expected in GvG and PvP. Now, everyone brings atleast 1 anti-MM skill.
The adjustment did improve MMing, but it also made MM's easier to take down.
Carinae
Pre-nerfage, a MM had to run multiple minion/self heals, run around to deliver those heals, manage energy in a HIGHLY efficient manner, and pull off long series of spell chains perfectly.
Post-nerfage: spam BotM.
So we went from a situation where it actually took skill to raise and maintain a large army, to one where you can just stand flat-footed and keep hitting BotM until everything dies (or you do)
Everyone's trying to ignore the elephant in the living room because nothing can be done about it. We all know Anet isn't going to roll back the changes, I can accept that, but I'll never like it.
What they did was panic and slap a band-aid on the problem in the least elegant manner possible. Instead of allowing the other 12v12 players to adapt, they slapped a cap on us AND obliterated Verata's Sacrifice, but then turned around and boosted Blood of the Master to INSANE levels.
Seriously, this looks very much like a decision made in haste when patience should have ruled. They are normally very good at rebalancing skills/classes but in this case....
Where was their patience in letting the community even attempt to develop counter responses to minion masters? Remember, most players had only played WITH minion masters up to that point. So we were a new beast on the PvP field, bringing an entirely new dimension to the game.
We were the Turtles. We'd hurt bad if you'd rambo us, but we could be beaten still.
They should have let it alone for at least a month to see what the community's response was and only then taken a look at any changes that needed to be implemented (on either side)
Post-nerfage: spam BotM.
So we went from a situation where it actually took skill to raise and maintain a large army, to one where you can just stand flat-footed and keep hitting BotM until everything dies (or you do)
Everyone's trying to ignore the elephant in the living room because nothing can be done about it. We all know Anet isn't going to roll back the changes, I can accept that, but I'll never like it.
What they did was panic and slap a band-aid on the problem in the least elegant manner possible. Instead of allowing the other 12v12 players to adapt, they slapped a cap on us AND obliterated Verata's Sacrifice, but then turned around and boosted Blood of the Master to INSANE levels.
Seriously, this looks very much like a decision made in haste when patience should have ruled. They are normally very good at rebalancing skills/classes but in this case....
Where was their patience in letting the community even attempt to develop counter responses to minion masters? Remember, most players had only played WITH minion masters up to that point. So we were a new beast on the PvP field, bringing an entirely new dimension to the game.
We were the Turtles. We'd hurt bad if you'd rambo us, but we could be beaten still.
They should have let it alone for at least a month to see what the community's response was and only then taken a look at any changes that needed to be implemented (on either side)
xenoranger
Have you considered what the adjustement did?
THink about it.
1 MM with loads of VHorrors would be invincible. Just keep spamming VSacrifice and let the VHorrors zerg and heal you. Yes, it took skill to keep them alive before, but now it takes more skill to manage them while considering the next move. Also, notice what happenned to parties when those minions died? I think it's a far cry better to deal withonly 10 masterless than 50 (like some had before).
People always say "well, you could limit the number of VHorrors". True, but then you'd also be making them pointless. Consider what the adjustment did. Stop looking at just the minion cap of 10 and look at the adjustment as a whole.
It leveled the playing field
MM's can't super Zerg now and have serious repreccussions for mismanaging minions
Buffed Blood of the Master
All Allied Minions are healed. YOu can even heal another necro's minions easily
Super Minion (Golem)
Nuff Said
No Invinci-Minion Master
Vhorrors are nice, but if they were to make it so you could have unlimited, the incessant damage dealing capabilities would make the master impossible to take down.
Cost Effective "Minions"
Animate Minions dropped to 15 instead of 25 for cost. You get 2 at roughly half the level of a single horror. There are many applications for Animate Minions
Minion Bar
Now you know how many you're managing. It's nice because before, Minions would get all mixed up and it'd be difficult to tell whose is whose.
Dual MM is possible and productive
You can have more than 1 MM in a group without having to worry about corpse control.
MM = Useful in PvP
Before, it was near impossible to be an MM in PvP matches. Now, it's possible.
Other Questionable CHanges include:Verata's Sacrifice
Improved and Reduced at the same time. It does recharge instantly with 3 or less (which is nice), but the 10 sec max duration and the 60 sec recharge time are nerfs (hands down).
I was an opponent of the adjustement, but again, to continue calling it a nerf means you shouldn't be playing an MM. Try another form of necro if you can't get the new MM to work.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again.
"If you can't get the new system to work, then you're a wannabe. Once you have the new system down, you're a Minion Master."
At this point, it's not going to be changed, so either adapt or choose another build, but complaining about it is pointless.
THink about it.
1 MM with loads of VHorrors would be invincible. Just keep spamming VSacrifice and let the VHorrors zerg and heal you. Yes, it took skill to keep them alive before, but now it takes more skill to manage them while considering the next move. Also, notice what happenned to parties when those minions died? I think it's a far cry better to deal withonly 10 masterless than 50 (like some had before).
People always say "well, you could limit the number of VHorrors". True, but then you'd also be making them pointless. Consider what the adjustment did. Stop looking at just the minion cap of 10 and look at the adjustment as a whole.
It leveled the playing field
MM's can't super Zerg now and have serious repreccussions for mismanaging minions
Buffed Blood of the Master
All Allied Minions are healed. YOu can even heal another necro's minions easily
Super Minion (Golem)
Nuff Said
No Invinci-Minion Master
Vhorrors are nice, but if they were to make it so you could have unlimited, the incessant damage dealing capabilities would make the master impossible to take down.
Cost Effective "Minions"
Animate Minions dropped to 15 instead of 25 for cost. You get 2 at roughly half the level of a single horror. There are many applications for Animate Minions
Minion Bar
Now you know how many you're managing. It's nice because before, Minions would get all mixed up and it'd be difficult to tell whose is whose.
Dual MM is possible and productive
You can have more than 1 MM in a group without having to worry about corpse control.
Before, it was near impossible to be an MM in PvP matches. Now, it's possible.
Other Questionable CHanges include:Verata's Sacrifice
Improved and Reduced at the same time. It does recharge instantly with 3 or less (which is nice), but the 10 sec max duration and the 60 sec recharge time are nerfs (hands down).
I was an opponent of the adjustement, but again, to continue calling it a nerf means you shouldn't be playing an MM. Try another form of necro if you can't get the new MM to work.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again.
"If you can't get the new system to work, then you're a wannabe. Once you have the new system down, you're a Minion Master."
At this point, it's not going to be changed, so either adapt or choose another build, but complaining about it is pointless.
Ensign
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Originally Posted by Undead Preacher
my question is this.... besides the Flesh Golem are Bone Fiends still the minions of choice or are the new vampric horrors better...
Honestly I like bone fiends better than the flesh golem - they deal more damage, after all. Flesh golem is nice because you can keep bringing him back, and if you can get aggro on him instead of the fiends it's pretty good. If you're playing on a team with a real tank though I don't think he's worth it. If you're not getting milage out of his health and armor he's just worse than a fiend. I do like him as a startup minion. Bet, hell, if there was a good minion master skill to put in that slot I'd do it.
The only reason I'd use a non-Fiend skill is because Fiend is recharging, or too expensive. Vampiric Horror fails on the energy count, though the recharge part really doesn't matter. I'd just take Bone Horror, it's cheap and your melee guys are just chaff anyway.
Peace,
-CxE
The only reason I'd use a non-Fiend skill is because Fiend is recharging, or too expensive. Vampiric Horror fails on the energy count, though the recharge part really doesn't matter. I'd just take Bone Horror, it's cheap and your melee guys are just chaff anyway.
Peace,
-CxE
Manic Smile
With VS gone and the annoyance of having to use BotM over and over to transport minnions I like FG solely for the transportation factor and, like you said, minnion army start up. You let him die and just recast and then keep him healed while he starts a new army for you and if he dies you recast.
Manic Smile
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Originally Posted by xenoranger
THink about it.
1 MM with loads of VHorrors would be invincible. Just keep spamming VSacrifice and let the VHorrors zerg and heal you. Yes, it took skill to keep them alive before, but now it takes more skill to manage them while considering the next move. Also, notice what happenned to parties when those minions died? I think it's a far cry better to deal withonly 10 masterless than 50 (like some had before). .
Quote: Originally Posted by xenoranger People always say "well, you could limit the number of VHorrors". True, but then you'd also be making them pointless. Consider what the adjustment did. Stop looking at just the minion cap of 10 and look at the adjustment as a whole. Broken VS
Overpowered BotM
Minnion Cap
Loss of Skill
Two HA skills
yea...like Carinae said...hasetful move on A.nets part
Quote: Originally Posted by xenoranger [list][*]It leveled the playing field
MM's can't super Zerg now and have serious repreccussions for mismanaging minions This isn't new...you said it yourself 50 masterless minnions...and a MM would not have been immortal in ABs...PvE maybe but come on we still have 55s why not nerf that if that was A.nets reasoning.
Quote: Originally Posted by xenoranger [*]Buffed Blood of the Master
All Allied Minions are healed. YOu can even heal another necro's minions easily mixed feelings here so I'll just leave it alone
Quote: Originally Posted by xenoranger [*]Super Minion (Golem)
Nuff Said One Golem
Elite
Can't Recast before death and keep body
lower dps then fiends
has nothing to do with what we are talking about(VS and minnion cap) even if it is 'part of the whole adjustment'
Quote: Originally Posted by xenoranger [*]No Invinci-Minion Master
Vhorrors are nice, but if they were to make it so you could have unlimited, the incessant damage dealing capabilities would make the master impossible to take down. Even if I could have 50 VHorros I wouldn't waste my time, I never needed them. They really are not worth the mana cast.
Quote: Originally Posted by xenoranger [*]Cost Effective "Minions"
Animate Minions dropped to 15 instead of 25 for cost. You get 2 at roughly half the level of a single horror. There are many applications for Animate Minions. Nice enough I agree but who used that spell in a non bomber type MM build so really I could care less until A.net gives us a Minnion party window.
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Originally Posted by xenoranger
[*]Minion Bar
No argument there. I wish they would've done that. But when having multiple MM's (or stolen minions) before, I'd try to heal them which'd make my sacrifice pointless. It's as useful as Blood is Power when solo farming. Knowing you have minions is an asset (IMO). ALthough, an actual window would be much better.Now you know how many you're managing. It's nice because before, Minions would get all mixed up and it'd be difficult to tell whose is whose. pointless/useless I mean if the can do this just give us a damn minnion window Quote:
I find the initial energy cost to get a full group of VHorrors up just not worth the life steal, as well as what you have to trade off going with VHorrors > Fiends. I mean I haven't crunched the numbers but just to give a general idea: VHorrors which cost 25 and behave as Horrors which means they die more often vs. HA for 10 and fiends that last longer and do more damage?
Quote: HOPE YOU'RE READING THIS ANET . |
Quote: Originally Posted by xenoranger Not useless, but just less effective.
60 sec recharge (4 or more)= Nerf
Instance Recharge (3 or less) = Buff
10 Sec Healing = Nerf
Removes all conditions = Same
Yeah, more of a nerf than a buff, but I still find it a useful skill.
. It's not so much the stats of the skill but the fact that it no longer serves the purpose for which we used it: to keep stale minnions up longer. At the time mostly for transportation but now with BotM the old VS would even help in battle.
Quote: Originally Posted by xenoranger Yeah, it comes off as pretentious, but you have no clue how many times I hear people saying "oh, it's nerfed.. whoa the nerf." The point is they never try the new system. Sounds like you've tried it and actually have a right to complain, so I apologize for sounding harsh. I agree with stuff changes people tend to just get upset by the idea before they try to see what was really done...but the change to VS alone is enough imo to say this nerf was at best a bit silly.
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Recently, I've been branching out and I find that MM is the lowest form of Necromancing there is. It's effects may be visable, but it actually serves as a pretty weak way to increase your DPS or general effectiveness in battle. Since I've been playing SS, Vampiric Spirit, and other builds, I find that i'm able to kill much quicker than using an MM Build (even a WoSuffering MM Build).
The power of MM is not pure damage though at 9 fiends and a golem it does do pretty good damage. Minnions provied damage diversion as well as squishy protection. To give a good example I just beat Raisu Palace in 17ish minutes with my MM build and henches and no one died once.
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Originally Posted by Ensign
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Strongly agreed...|
Originally Posted by xenoranger
Yeah, yeah... off topic, but still....
I think most MMs would happily take a nerf to BotM for a VS that lasted long enough to get to the next mob.
MM's are only good to differ the focus of enemies from a single target. They honestly help more in providing confusion for enemy AI. Even in PvP...well ABs...that can be a big deal. Quote:
Even then run Dark Bond or Infuse Condition...or even Death Nova.
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I would like to know what you're doing that outperforms 160 focused DPS on a target, plus enough chaff on the battlefield that your monks can play with one hand. I've found Spiteful Spirit to situationally kill faster, but not in a focused fashion, and it certainly doesn't mow through the trash anywhere near as quickly.
With just 10 minnions as it is now and the larger high lvl mobs in factions, imo, I have to say I somewhat agree that MM is no longer the damage provider it once was. With only 10 how often do more then 5 or 6 ever overlap on a single enemy. If we had some form of control, i.e. follow and attack my target there would be a huge difference.
Blood of the Master is 122 healing per minion per 5 energy per 3 seconds, coming out to 24.4 health per energy, and a bit better than 40 health per second. Verata's Sacrifice, for three or less minions, is 200 healing per 10 energy per 10 seconds, for 20 health per energy and 20 health per second. The difference in the skills is the time spent casting - Blood of the Master used maximally is 1.75 seconds casting out of every 3 (58.3-% of the time) while Verata's Sacrifice is 2.75 out of every 10 (27.5% of the time).
However, to get the same HPS out of BotM as Verata's Sacrifice, you only have to cast it once every 6.1 seconds. At that rate, BotM only requires you to be casting 1.75 seconds out of every 6.1, for 28.7% of the time casting. The energy cost of doing so is only 82% of what Verata's Sacrifice does. Hence for maintaining 3 or less minions, Blood of the Master has virtually the same time investment as Verata's Sacrifice, and around 4/5ths the energy cost.
The only reason to ever use Verata's Sacrifice is alongside Blood of the Master, to increase combat health regeneration. Alternating Veratas followed by 3 Blood of the Master and repeating, you can get around 54 health per second per minion. Of course stopping to raise more minions keeps you from ever getting that efficient. As far as which heal you should be casting mid-combat to maintain your minions, the two are virtually identical - BotM returning ~70 health per second spent casting, Verata's returning ~73.
I guess another way of putting it is that if Verata's Sacrifice never had a recharge for any number of minions, it still wouldn't be better than Blood of the Master.
The old Verata's Sacrifice, BTW, had stats of 42 health per energy and 13 health per second. The advantage was the time investment of around 8.6%. I think it was weaker than the new Blood of the Master, but fairly balanced with it due to the convenience - I think most people would run both if given the opportunity.
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Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
Restore Verata's Sacrifice to its previous functionality, but make it easily interruptable.Quote:
Just to put the numbers out there from a balance standpoint.|
Originally Posted by Ensign
I agree with that feeling. I like the minion cap, it's a no-nonsense way of dealing with ridiculous hordes, and the playstyle of less minions with the cap is kinda nice too - I particularly like how your energy gets smoothed out once you hit the cap. I think they still need some tweaking (melee minion attack rate, BotM getting toned down a little, Verata's Sacrifice getting a boost) but they're fine as is.
I'm fine with the cap but give us more control and better choices in return instead of just BotM. Minnion menu and some simple group minnion controls I think would shut up any apponent of the minnion cap. Less is fine if we are allowed to use them effectively. As for the skills...the overall effect of a MM might be fine but I really can't see where VS could ever be called ok.
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Manic brings up a good point here. We may be dealing 160hp/s of damage, but that's spread out over the whole mob. Sure, you can usually get them focused on the initial target, but after that....
It's not even equivalent to AoE, because that does X damage to each target, not X damage total spread out across each target. Minion control would be nice or, alternatively, bump the cap to 16.
Ensign
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Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
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Blood of the Master is 122 healing per minion per 5 energy per 3 seconds, coming out to 24.4 health per energy, and a bit better than 40 health per second. Verata's Sacrifice, for three or less minions, is 200 healing per 10 energy per 10 seconds, for 20 health per energy and 20 health per second. The difference in the skills is the time spent casting - Blood of the Master used maximally is 1.75 seconds casting out of every 3 (58.3-% of the time) while Verata's Sacrifice is 2.75 out of every 10 (27.5% of the time).
However, to get the same HPS out of BotM as Verata's Sacrifice, you only have to cast it once every 6.1 seconds. At that rate, BotM only requires you to be casting 1.75 seconds out of every 6.1, for 28.7% of the time casting. The energy cost of doing so is only 82% of what Verata's Sacrifice does. Hence for maintaining 3 or less minions, Blood of the Master has virtually the same time investment as Verata's Sacrifice, and around 4/5ths the energy cost.
The only reason to ever use Verata's Sacrifice is alongside Blood of the Master, to increase combat health regeneration. Alternating Veratas followed by 3 Blood of the Master and repeating, you can get around 54 health per second per minion. Of course stopping to raise more minions keeps you from ever getting that efficient. As far as which heal you should be casting mid-combat to maintain your minions, the two are virtually identical - BotM returning ~70 health per second spent casting, Verata's returning ~73.
I guess another way of putting it is that if Verata's Sacrifice never had a recharge for any number of minions, it still wouldn't be better than Blood of the Master.
The old Verata's Sacrifice, BTW, had stats of 42 health per energy and 13 health per second. The advantage was the time investment of around 8.6%. I think it was weaker than the new Blood of the Master, but fairly balanced with it due to the convenience - I think most people would run both if given the opportunity.
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Quote: Originally Posted by Manic Smile Even then run Dark Bond or Infuse Condition...or even Death Nova. I like Rot and Swarm on death guys, they serve the same functionality in low minion situations. I'm also a fan of Taste of Death - especially with the Golem - though it's hardly essential. Toss in a couple minion skills and BotM, and your res. Plus you have a secondary, and other attributes, that you can play with since you have the points. You really don't have such a barren bar that you're going to throw on random crap like Verata's, the skill needs to actually do something to justify being there. It's just that you do have space for good skills if they happen to come along, you don't have to sacrifice core functionality (which in my mind is just Fiend + BotM) to get it on there.
Quote: Originally Posted by Manic Smile With just 10 minnions as it is now and the larger high lvl mobs in factions, imo, I have to say I somewhat agree that MM is no longer the damage provider it once was. The value of the minions is not simply in that raw 160 DPS. It's that it's coming from a character that provides more defense to a team than a monk. All the damage that would otherwise go onto players goes onto expendable minions that are getting *incredibly* efficient heals from BotM instead. The monk can basically put a brick on his Signet of Devotion key and go AFK without ill consequences. Sure, Barrage/Spiteful/Triple Chop deal more damage in AoE situations, but none of those characters are providing such a strong passive defense.
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Originally Posted by Manic Smile
kinda takes any of the skill out of playing a MM...
I honestly don't understand this whole 'skill of the MM' argument. The character never took any appreciable amount of skill. I guess there were some competitions between MMs over who could get a bigger army through microing Heal Area and BotM, but who cares? You'd get 30-40 without even really trying, and an army of that size didn't even need a team to complete just about anything without even trying. I'd rather blow things up quickly and finish my objectives faster than try and micro another dozen meaningless minions into the horde.
I like Rot and Swarm on death guys, they serve the same functionality in low minion situations. I'm also a fan of Taste of Death - especially with the Golem - though it's hardly essential. Toss in a couple minion skills and BotM, and your res. Plus you have a secondary, and other attributes, that you can play with since you have the points. You really don't have such a barren bar that you're going to throw on random crap like Verata's, the skill needs to actually do something to justify being there. It's just that you do have space for good skills if they happen to come along, you don't have to sacrifice core functionality (which in my mind is just Fiend + BotM) to get it on there.
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Why does it need to be less efficient, honestly? I also think Carinae suggested it just to appeas A.net some because I'm sure he'd be fine with just having VS back to what it was.
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Quote: Originally Posted by Ensign The value of the minions is not simply in that raw 160 DPS. It's that it's coming from a character that provides more defense to a team than a monk. All the damage that would otherwise go onto players goes onto expendable minions that are getting *incredibly* efficient heals from BotM instead. That was pretty much my point. Over all MM is still very useful.
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Swarm is easy to pass on, you have to spam it to really get milage and that only happens in disaster time when you don't have any minions. Rot on the other hand is awesome. You're looking at 208 damage over its lifespan to each target it infects, and it's not terribly difficult to get an entire mob with that one cast. It rarely bounces back in PvE, making it so attractive it hurts. I like having at least one skill to toss out there at the beginning of the fight as well, not only does it make things go faster, but it doesn't even cost you anything because you're going to get the energy back on the first kill.|
Originally Posted by Ensign
I honestly don't understand this whole 'skill of the MM' argument. The character never took any appreciable amount of skill. I guess there were some competitions between MMs over who could get a bigger army through microing Heal Area and BotM, but who cares? You'd get 30-40 without even really trying, and an army of that size didn't even need a team to complete just about anything without even trying. I'd rather blow things up quickly and finish my objectives faster than try and micro another dozen meaningless minions into the horde.
In a game of button mashing, time and energy management with some situational responses are about the only challenge. What's harder...bonder monk with a keg warrior or active protect without the keg warrior. That's really all it is. I only argued over the sub class because people were posting things I felt were loads of crap. And to assume I'd sit there trying to raise that one last minnion up instead of moving on to the next battle is wrong. Carrying 50ish minnions provided some application of time, energy and situation management and hence made it enjoyable for me. Now all we do is spam BotM...
I also felt that the extra damage provided by Rot/Swarm in a PvE situation really wasn't all that needed with 50ish minnioins up...granted now with 10 that extra damage would make a difference and I haven't tried out the skills since.
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It doesn't, as I said, but if for whatever reason the skill needed a nerf you'd want to affect that efficiency. Adding random conditions that either don't matter (easily interrupted) or crush the skill entirely aren't going to get you where you want. Verata's Sacrifice always had an easy to understand, solid effect, there has never been a reason to make it needlessly complicated.
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Quote: Originally Posted by Manic Smile
With a minnion window I would be all for ToD but without the ability to accurately choose which minnion to consume and the difficutly with Death Nova I'd rather just stick with HA for self healing. Anywhere where 120-130 life can't save me, 420(I think?) probably won't either...and your giving up on damage and a body.
Taste is an awesome panic button, especially with a golem (that you can keep targeted for the most part) - Taste won't even kill it if it's near full, and even if it does you don't care because you get it right back. It's a convenient skill to have for resetting your golem as well, as golems tend to actually live long enough to get old and hit that permanent -10 degen. I'll use it to pick out horrors or other startup minions to replace with fiends - being able to selectively kill minions has become much more useful with the cap. It's hardly essential, but the combination of ultimate emergency heal plus the tricks you can pull with it give it a place on a bar that isn't pressed for space.
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Originally Posted by Ensign
They very likely did do some research into where the character starts to become insane, and implemented the cap where it is in order to get a good, round, scaling set of numbers that landed close to that boundary.Quote:
ToD is useful for Golem but I have no idea why A.net made it so that the golem doesn't leave a corpse when you recast it before it dies? This would remove the need all together? I find Dark Bond in conjunction with HA prevent my need to worry for the most part...encht remove aside. Being able to selectively choose a minnion for ToD is most needed where it is most difficult to actually do...in battle. |
Originally Posted by Manic Smile
What's the point of having it at 10? You gonna tell me that isn't arbitrary...that A.net researched all the differect number combonations to see what would be the best choice...or did they just pick a nice round number?
They very likely did do some research into where the character starts to become insane, and implemented the cap where it is in order to get a good, round, scaling set of numbers that landed close to that boundary.
Taste is an awesome panic button, especially with a golem (that you can keep targeted for the most part) - Taste won't even kill it if it's near full, and even if it does you don't care because you get it right back. It's a convenient skill to have for resetting your golem as well, as golems tend to actually live long enough to get old and hit that permanent -10 degen. I'll use it to pick out horrors or other startup minions to replace with fiends - being able to selectively kill minions has become much more useful with the cap. It's hardly essential, but the combination of ultimate emergency heal plus the tricks you can pull with it give it a place on a bar that isn't pressed for space.
I'm not going to sit here and say that 10 is the perfect, balanced number for minions (though in fairness it is likely what I would have chosen as well). What I will say is given that the cap exists where it is, arguments for changing the cap need to carry their own reasoning. There very well may be good arguments for giving a MM more minions, but arguments that make no sense, or come down to 'the minion cap should be higher because I want more minions' aren't terribly productive. Quote:
The reasoning behind Carinae's suggestion if I understand it right is that, he as do I believe, that A.net nerfed VS soley for it's believed impact on pvp battle situations...most likely ABs. Perhaps were wrong but I dont' think A.net cares if we use VS to coast a group of minnions around a whole PvE map...we can do that now with BotM, granted there is more hassel but it's still the same effect over all. The bing impact I think would be to cast VS prior to a battle, regen your mana till only a bit of VS is left, then go into battle with both VS and BotM...two 'army' effecting spells. I feel BotM needed that buff as it was pretty sad to have a healing line be of more benefit to my minnions then the purposely crafted death spell but A.net needed to prevent VS from being effective in battle without making the skill useless...or less useful...in the situation where we most need it, minnion transportation/down time. I just don't see the need to alter the cast time or the mana cost if we can directly alter it's combat effectiveness. Perhaps easily interuptable woudln't pan out in real play but I think Carinae has the right idea. *edit* how about adding in for the duration of this spell minnions do 3/4th damage or something of that nature.
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I'm not going to sit here and say that 10 is the perfect, balanced number for minions (though in fairness it is likely what I would have chosen as well). What I will say is given that the cap exists where it is, arguments for changing the cap need to carry their own reasoning. There very well may be good arguments for giving a MM more minions, but arguments that make no sense, or come down to 'the minion cap should be higher because I want more minions' aren't terribly productive. Not that I disbelieve you but I know you are skilled at crunching the numbers and I'd love to see some kind of imperical test...even if it has to be extrapolated...on minnion number vs single target dps.
I like the idea of 16 solely because it's one for each lvl of death but that's purely an OCD thing. 10 is fine by me but it still seems kind arbitrary. Is 11 gonna be so much more? 12? Where does one more minnion break an apposing army?
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Yeah that's the deal. I still have to wonder about the change, though - as far as I can remember, this is the first time in the history of the retail game that a skill has been nerfed into uselessness, for reasons other than it being used in some exploitative build.|
Originally Posted by Ensign
It doesn't exist due to engine constraints. I'm sure they have enough talent coding the game that they could change it if they wanted to, but that just hasn't been something they desired to do apparently.
I would pay for this kinda thing, and some minnion control, Hench AI/Customization, improved trade system, reconnect options, improved storage system before I'd pay for another chapter. I mean really I'm gonna pay 20 bucks to buy more slots...I'd pay another 20 to be able to use a tradeing post of some kind. Smarter > Harder. Yeah, I can see that argument but I really can't accept it. If anything the minion cap took care of that, much the same way that it took care of ridiculous PvE necros.Quote:
I meant interruptable per minion, similar to Healing Spring.
EDIT: and, yes, I suggested the interruptability to appease the Anet gods. Quote:
My gut feeling is that VS got nerfed as hard as it did because they wanted Blood of the Master to be the minion heal of choice - since it was going to be a core skill, and they didn't want to have to make a new minion heal for every chapter. So they put that where it needed to be, and I guess were unhappy with the results of new BotM plus Verata's on the same bar. So Verata's got hammered. I wouldn't know how bad the combination was, I never got to play with it - but the nerf to Verata's seems a *little* over the top. Quote: Originally Posted by Manic Smile regen your mana till only a bit of VS is left, then go into battle with both VS and BotM...two 'army' effecting spells. |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Manic Smile Not that I disbelieve you but I know you are skilled at crunching the numbers and I'd love to see some kind of imperical test...even if it has to be extrapolated...on minnion number vs single target dps. The single target DPS is just going to be number of minions times the damage per minion, no? Of course that will be spread around once things get chaotic but I honestly odn't worry too much about that.
The raw numbers are roughly 16 DPS per Fiend, 14 from the Golem, 9 per Horror, and 3.5 per Minion, at 16 death, vs. 60 AL. You can thank an old buddy of mine, Pharalon, for running the empirical tests on that.
Quote: Originally Posted by Manic Smile I like the idea of 16 solely because it's one for each lvl of death but that's purely an OCD thing. 10 is fine by me but it still seems kind arbitrary. Is 11 gonna be so much more? 12? Where does one more minnion break an apposing army? 16 would give you 0 minions at 0 death, which isn't acceptable when you give a minion skill to level 1 characters in pre-sear, and when there's an expectation of your skills working at any attribute level unless it says otherwise. Animate Bone Minions gives two minions, so the minimum number at 0 needs to be 2. If you add one per level after that, you get 18 at 16 death. I think from past experience, and from seeing how strong 10 minions is, that 18 is arbitrarily close to wrecking ball levels. Next best is 2 + attribute/2, or 10. The character is still extremely strong at that level but doesn't overrun things, so they probably stopped tweaking at that point. Is 12 a better number? How about 8? Who knows, things generally aren't balanced that finely. 10 is acceptable, and it's the best elegant number, so it stuck.
Quote: Originally Posted by Manic Smile even if it is just putting VS back...I MISS that skill. Agreed. Even if the skill was really strong, it took a significant hit just from the minion cap - 10 minions regenerating is weaker than 40 - and it going away made playing the class more tedious - not harder. After 10 minutes or so of playing the template I kinda unconsciously get into a rhythm of hitting BotM all the time, but really, that isn't exactly exciting gameplay. What I think hurt was having to adjust to the minion cap, while at the same time eating the nerf to VS that made maintaining the new, smaller number of minions much more tedious.
Minion cap plus BotM buff gives you less minions that are easier to maintain, which is a clear gameplay change that I wouldn't mind adjusting to. Minion cap plus a bigger pain to maintain? That just seems to be overdoing it.
Quote: Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
Well, that's just great. How many endless debates were there about Cleave/Eviscerate or Healing comparisons? Good Warriors can try to eek out that last 2dps, but not MM's?
The thing that had the biggest effect on MM DPS was not the number of minions but the time spent running between mobs. From my experience, both playing with and as a death necro, is that effort spent keeping minions at -10 pips up only served to slow the group down. Now maybe you were an uber minion player, who managed to maintain 90 minions while never slowing down the group to get those extra 50. I'm open to that possibility. But the relevant gameplay concern to me was always speed. Everyone else on the team moved faster, and the concern wasn't whether a horde had 40 or 60 guys in it, but how soon it would show up and blow up a mob in less than 10 seconds - then how much time would be spent, and lost, while the minion master raised more guys from those corpses.
Animate Bone Horror was a key part of a minion build, because those corpses on the ground at the end of a battle are not worth 8 seconds of your time. After a point, they stop being worth the 3 second cast time of Horror as well. I'd rather just slam my horde into the next pack 4 seconds sooner than add another meaningless horror. I would rather get to the next mob 6-7 seconds sooner, than kill it half a second faster once I'm there. That math seemed obvious to me. I would cap out around 30-40 dudes while running at maximum speed, and that had a negligible, if any, effect on my killing power.
Again, maybe you were such an awesome minion army builder that you could maintain close to a hundred guys without sacrificing any speed. I never saw that, usually the people who obsessed over their minion armies were slow as hell. If you really were that good, I would hope that you would be willing to write yourself off as an exception that can't be used for balance judgements. PvE, unlike PvP, gets balanced around standard expected output of characters, not what a very narrow subset of the population can do.
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Originally Posted by Ensign
The raw numbers are roughly 16 DPS per Fiend, 14 from the Golem, 9 per Horror, and 3.5 per Minion, at 16 death, vs. 60 AL. You can thank an old buddy of mine, Pharalon, for running the empirical tests on that.
Is there a whole link/thread on this? If so, can you point me in the direction, I'd like to read more.Animate Bone Horror was a key part of a minion build, because those corpses on the ground at the end of a battle are not worth 8 seconds of your time. After a point, they stop being worth the 3 second cast time of Horror as well. I'd rather just slam my horde into the next pack 4 seconds sooner than add another meaningless horror. I would rather get to the next mob 6-7 seconds sooner, than kill it half a second faster once I'm there. That math seemed obvious to me. I would cap out around 30-40 dudes while running at maximum speed, and that had a negligible, if any, effect on my killing power.
Again, maybe you were such an awesome minion army builder that you could maintain close to a hundred guys without sacrificing any speed. I never saw that, usually the people who obsessed over their minion armies were slow as hell. If you really were that good, I would hope that you would be willing to write yourself off as an exception that can't be used for balance judgements. PvE, unlike PvP, gets balanced around standard expected output of characters, not what a very narrow subset of the population can do.
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That's just my point, some probability on one versus group size versus minnion size but tbh if I thought it was worth the effort I'd do it myself.|
Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
So unless we are dealing the damage directly, or individually selling minions/party to heal it's a skillless build?
It's not like I've never played the build. Maintaining moderate (30-40) armies of minions, that absolutely wrecked everything, was one of the most mindless things I've done in GW PvE. You got into a Verata's rhythm, aimed a BotM / Heal Area in combat, and just demolished everything. I'm sure things got more interesting if you tried to maximize the armies and keep every guy alive, but again, I don't feel that was optimal gameplay at all. The only thing that compared in simplicity was maintaining seven enchantments on a stance tank with a gear. That could put me to sleep with a quickness.
The single target DPS is just going to be number of minions times the damage per minion, no? Of course that will be spread around once things get chaotic but I honestly odn't worry too much about that.
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You're likely right but it makes using Golem, quite tendious sometimes. And the worse part is I don't think we can expect to see it changed with the list of other much bigger problems that need to be addressed as well as Ch. 3.
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Quote: Originally Posted by Ensign 16 would give you 0 minions at 0 death, which isn't acceptable when you give a minion skill to level 1 characters in pre-sear, and when there's an expectation of your skills working at any attribute level unless it says otherwise. Animate Bone Minions gives two minions, so the minimum number at 0 needs to be 2. If you add one per level after that, you get 18 at 16 death. I think from past experience, and from seeing how strong 10 minions is, that 18 is arbitrarily close to wrecking ball levels. Next best is 2 + attribute/2, or 10. The character is still extremely strong at that level but doesn't overrun things, so they probably stopped tweaking at that point. Is 12 a better number? How about 8? Who knows, things generally aren't balanced that finely. 10 is acceptable, and it's the best elegant number, so it stuck. I wish there was a way to try all this out, hindsight and all that, if I knew how there were gonna nerf the MM, I would have tried all the different minnion numbers just so I could say for myself the difference between say 10 and 16/18 or 30+.
Quote: Originally Posted by Ensign Even if the skill was really strong, it took a significant hit just from the minion cap - 10 minions regenerating is weaker than 40 - and it going away made playing the class more tedious - not harder. After 10 minutes or so of playing the template I kinda unconsciously get into a rhythm of hitting BotM all the time, but really, that isn't exactly exciting gameplay.
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Minion cap plus BotM buff gives you less minions that are easier to maintain, which is a clear gameplay change that I wouldn't mind adjusting to. Minion cap plus a bigger pain to maintain? That just seems to be overdoing it. yep
Quote: Originally Posted by Ensign The thing that had the biggest effect on MM DPS was not the number of minions but the time spent running between mobs. From my experience, both playing with and as a death necro, is that effort spent keeping minions at -10 pips up only served to slow the group down. Now maybe you were an uber minion player, who managed to maintain 90 minions while never slowing down the group to get those extra 50. I'm open to that possibility. But the relevant gameplay concern to me was always speed. Everyone else on the team moved faster, and the concern wasn't whether a horde had 40 or 60 guys in it, but how soon it would show up and blow up a mob in less than 10 seconds - then how much time would be spent, and lost, while the minion master raised more guys from those corpses. This really is only a concern on the first mob or so when you are first building up the steam roller. Once you have 30ish, i ono, minnions you don't pick up every corpse before you move on to the next mob. You summon as they die and then move on. You might arrive 10 seconds after the warrior to the next mob because you were raising a last corpse and the delay in the travel as you heal your army but you didn't need to be grabbig aggro anyway. Rarely did the rest of the party drop even the first enemy of the next mob before my army arrived to help out. 90 is as intended a bit extreme in this reguard but 50 was not.
To give cases I've duoed Thirsty, there are time limits there and AoE mobs...things that I would think require skill. I think I could almost solo it cept rockshoot are the most annoying %^&* in numbers. Or Raisu Palace, another mission with a time limit I gotten master at 17min and some with henches and a MM. That's with only 10 minnions and I must not have stopped too much.
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Originally Posted by Ensign
Animate Bone Horror was a key part of a minion build, because those corpses on the ground at the end of a battle are not worth 8 seconds of your time. After a point, they stop being worth the 3 second cast time of Horror as well. I'd rather just slam my horde into the next pack 4 seconds sooner than add another meaningless horror. I would rather get to the next mob 6-7 seconds sooner, than kill it half a second faster once I'm there. That math seemed obvious to me. I would cap out around 30-40 dudes while running at maximum speed, and that had a negligible, if any, effect on my killing power.
Agreed but we are not argueing that. There was rarely much delat at all between mobs...the biggist slow down was rechasting VS/BotM then HA during transit. With MM i never felt faster recharge to be all that useful as even if the raise skills were back up I'd have to worry about my energy costs. Not having it helped steady out the rythm in reguards to VS and mana consumption anyway. So with either 30% fast cast or 40% fast cast%(weapon value) minnions would sometimes even insta cast...now with bloodstained finally working summoning in general is pretty quick. The trick was to keep your army alive with well placed HAs and up close BotMs(think front lines) while keeping VS up at all times and trying to keep a rythm to mana intake through SR. The idea is to keep enough minnions alive so that as you add minnions 'during battle' you come out the other end with more then you entered. I might leave 3 or 4 corpses behind after a battle in order to move on to the next but I raised 3 more then the 2 I lost during it. There was no more down time then a monk might need...that is none on a small to decent battle and more when the battle gets extended and my energy starts to run down preventing me from casting BotM/HA as much. Quote:
I think the difference is from Heal Area. Before you wanted to make good use of that skill for good heals mid-battle - getting your fiends to bunch up for Heal Area while attacking was huge, and it got you a lot of healing in transit. Now that tactic really isn't neccessary, so all the interesting Heal Area positioning became obsolete in favor of BotM spam.
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Originally Posted by Manic Smile
| And moving my army around to postition them into attacking the single mob I want, or it's area at least, without aggroing anything else first, with no real game skill for it does take player skill.
Yeah that's a thing that crushes minions at times, their perfect willingness to fire into a rock over and over again, unwilling to break aggro until their target has died. Lost some nice armies back in the day to that. You really want to know where to engage from in certain areas to avoid those problems. Not the most difficult thing in the world, but experience certainly helps. =) Quote:
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