Inspired Hex (and similar) not workin as intended.

misthero

misthero

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2005

I Falchi Bianchi [Puck]

E/Mo

Inspired Hex should have 3 effects: remove 1 hex, give some energy, give u 20 seconds to use that hex. (doesn't matter if you want to use it or not)

Now, since Factions comed out it is not workin at 100% for Chapter 1 owners only. That's becouse if you remove a factions hex you will not be able to use it.

I think this is a bug or a big mistake, if I don't buy Factions I can't move in Chanta, and I agree with this. I can't create or use As and Rit. professions, and that's ok. I can't make a build with Factions skill, perfect!

But this should'nt limit the functionality of my old GW skills.

Inspired Hex - Spell
Remove a Hex from target ally and gain 3-13 Energy. For 20 seconds, Inspired Hex is replaced by the Hex that was removed.


I have to say I own both chapters, and I have noticed this only when a guildie without Factions told me. And I don't like it.

Think about this, more chapters will come out, more and more skills too, but nothing, if i don't buy some of next chapters, should change the funcionality of my owned skill.

I can't see how having for 20 seconds a factions skill on my skilbar can harm any Factions owner.

Inspired Hex is usually there on my monk just to remove 1 hex and have some energy back, I never use the hex, but this is not the question. There are more skills that replace itself with an enemy skills, I can't see why the usefullness of those skills should be limeted to ppl who legally purchased it and want to use it.

So please A-Net let those skills work as intended becouse if I can replace my inspired hex with an locked skill or a different profession skill and still can use it, can't see why not if it'is a Factions locked skill.

Arcane Mimicry - Spell
For 20 seconds, Arcane Mimicry becomes the elite spell from target other ally.

what about this?

Lasareth

Lasareth

Aquarius

Join Date: Jun 2005

Somewhere between Boardwalk and Park Place

I've got to ask you, though, how often these skills are actually useful to begin with for skill substitiution. Do enough people use these to actually merit consideration of change? There may be... a few builds that make clever use of the skills, but I really cannot see any situation in which it would be important for a prophecies only character to mimic a Factions elite skill.

You should be knowing your skills' uses, correct? If you know your ally has a Factions elite, then you should know that as a prophecies character, you cannot have access to that elite. So the practicality of the idea diminishes further.

In essence, the question can be rephrased: "why can't I use my skill to cheat the system and use a factions skill"

This is the only way I see it as even remotely practical. And the answer to that question, in my opinion, is because you cannot use faction skills unless you have factions.

misthero

misthero

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2005

I Falchi Bianchi [Puck]

E/Mo

those skills are just an example, there are skills that casually copy 1 skill on the enemy skillbar.

How I told you "I HAVE FACTIONS", it's more I own 2 copies of it, 1 of is the CE. That's not the problem here. And I can see no cheat in using your own "purchased with your own money" skills how intented to.

If you have in the description "it replace with that skill or hex unless it belongs to another chapter" than ok. Do it, change the description. But actually I can't read this anywhere. So actually those skills are not working 100% how intended.

Problem is when more and more chapters comes out, and more and more skills will be around I ask myself : how many skills will stop working correctly due to chapter conflict?

I neither can see any commercial issue in this.

swiftygem

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2005

IMO they're wasting a good opportunity for a 20s Factions demo for someone who doesn't have it.

generik

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

What would happen if you are unable to use that skill? Does inspired hex become available instantly? If that's the case I actually see it as an advantage.

Stabber

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

Plane of Oblivion

Sigilum Sanguis [keep]

Me/W

Well, it is inconsistent is what's the problem. A perfectly consistent system would be that the inspired/stolen skill would not be usable unless you have unlocked it on your account, regardless of whether it is in a campaign you have purchased for your account or not. That would make a modicum of sense. Having it arbitrarily restricted based on campaign makes no sense.

NatalieD

NatalieD

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

To generik: I believe you copy the skill, but can't cast it. You get to see the icon, but it's crossed out or some such. I dunno, I have a merged account, but that's what I've been told by someone who doesn't.

I agree with the OP. Even though having a copy of the skill is rarely a significant thing, it still ought to work properly. It is not cheating the system, because you have to copy the skill in a way that is designed to be used to copy skills.

Not having one or the other chapter is supposed to give you a smaller pool of skills to choose from. It's not supposed to make skills from the chapter you do have less effective. Even if only slightly.

misthero

misthero

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2005

I Falchi Bianchi [Puck]

E/Mo

[QUOTE=NatalieD]To generik: I believe you copy the skill, but can't cast it. You get to see the icon, but it's crossed out or some such. I dunno, I have a merged account, but that's what I've been told by someone who doesn't.
/[QUOTE]

Can confirm, that's how it is atm.

Swampgirl Inez

Swampgirl Inez

"I love reading trash!"

Join Date: May 2005

Home Again

Just a reminder that we have an official bug thread:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=142817


And we also have a skill discussion forum:
Arcane Repository

generik

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Well no surprised.. the new spell is Anet's *gasp* Intellectual Property!! CONTENT!! Not paid for!!

If you want to cast that spell you gotta pay for it!

Sunai

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2006

It's working as intended.

Note:
Quote:
Inspired Hex - Spell
Remove a Hex from target ally and gain 3-13 Energy. For 20 seconds, Inspired Hex is replaced by the Hex that was removed.
Inspired Hex is replaced by that hex on the skill bar. You get that hex spell on your bar. That's all it says. It mentions nothing about if you can cast it or not.

It's vaguely similar to using Arcane Mimicry to get an Axe skill elite you can't use because you don't have an axe on you.
Do both of them say that the original spell is replaced by the new skill? Yes, and that's what happens.
Do either of them mention anything about being able to use it? No.

Maxiemonster

Maxiemonster

There is no spoon.

Join Date: Jun 2005

Netherlands

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasareth
I've got to ask you, though, how often these skills are actually useful to begin with for skill substitiution. Do enough people use these to actually merit consideration of change? There may be... a few builds that make clever use of the skills, but I really cannot see any situation in which it would be important for a prophecies only character to mimic a Factions elite skill.
There's more then enough reason to cast use Inspired Hex on a Mesmer. Why? Faster casting makes the 1 second cast less scary to cast, and especially Monks get interupted alot, and a Mesmer also can get lucky with the captured skill, getting of Migraine off a Monk for example, can help you alot, and if you can't use it after capping it, it might suck

But my advice: Just buy Factions It rocks anyway!

misthero

misthero

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2005

I Falchi Bianchi [Puck]

E/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunai
It's working as intended.

Note:

Inspired Hex is replaced by that hex on the skill bar. You get that hex spell on your bar. That's all it says. It mentions nothing about if you can cast it or not.

It's vaguely similar to using Arcane Mimicry to get an Axe skill elite you can't use because you don't have an axe on you.
Do both of them say that the original spell is replaced by the new skill? Yes, and that's what happens.
Do either of them mention anything about being able to use it? No.
Oh, sorry for being so dumb, it's not replaced to use it, it's just replaced for fun...

Maxiemonster

Maxiemonster

There is no spoon.

Join Date: Jun 2005

Netherlands

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by misthero
Oh, sorry for being so dumb, it's not replaced to use it, it's just replaced for fun...
Jep, you have a point there

A second reason is that +XX% recharge doesn't work on this, to make it less powerful on Monks, but that's obviously not the main reason.

Sunai

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by misthero
Oh, sorry for being so dumb, it's not replaced to use it, it's just replaced for fun...
Part of the balancing is that it could be beneficial (especially if it's from an attribute line you have some points in), or it could be totally worthless. Really, how many times do you turn around on your monk to cast your new 0 water magic 25 energy Deep Freeze?

Red Locust

Red Locust

Site Contributor

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by generik
Well no surprised.. the new spell is Anet's *gasp* Intellectual Property!! CONTENT!! Not paid for!!

If you want to cast that spell you gotta pay for it!
Well, that's what it is, essentially. ANet understandably don't give you direct access to factions skills without paying for them, so why would they let you circumvent the system by using arcane mimicry (or inspired hex) on an ally and indirectly getting access to those skills without purchasing the content? It's nothing shocking that ANet want to limit access of factions skills to prophecies characters.

Mandy Memory

Mandy Memory

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2005

USA

Xen of Sigils [XoO]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Locust
Well, that's what it is, essentially. ANet understandably don't give you direct access to factions skills without paying for them, so why would they let you circumvent the system by using arcane mimicry (or inspired hex) on an ally and indirectly getting access to those skills without purchasing the content? It's nothing shocking that ANet want to limit access of factions skills to prophecies characters.
Then they should remove the skills that are not working properly from the game. inspired hex, inspired enchant, arcane theivery, arcane mimicry and all copies of them. Right now they are bugged and not working...so they should be fixed...or removed.

Omnidragon42

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2005

Pantheon of Shadows [dei]

W/A

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxiemonster
Jep, you have a point there

A second reason is that +XX% recharge doesn't work on this, to make it less powerful on Monks, but that's obviously not the main reason.
Recharge mods dont work in Ihex because it doesn't have a recharge, it just goes away for 20 seconds.

I think it's kinda stupid that you can't use the Inspired factions skill if you dont have factions, with all of Anets "you dont need both games to be competitive" talk. Plus like swiftygem said, that 20second demo of factions skills could be a selling point for some people .

Mercury Angel

Mercury Angel

Avatar of Gwen

Join Date: Apr 2005

Wandering my own road.

I tend to think it was an oversight nobody really cared about, due to the extreme infrequency of Inspired Hex ever pulling up something you'd use.


Guild Wars is often compared to Magic the Gathering in terms of balance, in terms of expansion style, and just the general flavour of the skill sets. If you used a card to steal a card from another player in Magic temporarily, to the best of my knowledge, you can use it if you can use it. (That is, if you can't pay for it, you can't, but otherwise, it's available to you normally.) Something like that. I have a working knowledge of MtG, but I don't play.

There're a few attribute-linked hexes and enchantments that would be nice to have a copy of, but also quite a few non-attribute hexes and enchantments that can be used by anyone who can snag a copy.

And the same goes for Arcane Thievery. If I use it on a mesmer, I do so because I want both the shutdown, and often, an additional mesmer skill at my disposal that may or may not be useful.


Inspired Hex, Inspired Enchantment, Arcane Thievery, Arcane Mimicry, Echo, and Arcane Echo were all broken before the release of the game. They never could, and NEVER DID get their recharge times to function properly. (What they've done is thrown on a patch-up job by giving the skill its normal recharge time, and then throwing on a "When [blank] ends, it is disabled for X seconds", where X = the skill's recharge. You can tell this because faster recharges of ALL types, ranging from Mantra of Recovery to Glyph of Renewal have NO effect on the second recharge, while they do on the first.)

Another related matter is that none of the copy skills can take Monster skills. They just recharge instantly while still giving the energy bonus when applicable, and pull up the 'Target has no spells to steal' when applicable.


This is just another issue that compounds the imabalance of owning only a single chapter of Guild Wars, albeit a generally unimportant one. It cuts down the utility of certain skills in a way that would never happen in its TCG cousin, Magic.

Still, even if Anet does decide that it's something not working as intended, instead of a 'feature', then I doubt it's going to be anywhere near the top of the priority list.


In any case, no matter how many times I visualize it, I can't stop thinking how funny it would be if this kind of thing happened in a card game >_>

*Referee walks up to Player 1, who just stole Player 2's card from an expansion he doesn't own using a spell*
Referee: I'm sorry, but you do not own this expansion, and can not use that card.
*Referee smacks the card out of Player 1's hand*

<_<

Lugosi

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasareth
You should be knowing your skills' uses, correct? If you know your ally has a Factions elite, then you should know that as a prophecies character, you cannot have access to that elite. So the practicality of the idea diminishes further.
Right...and as somebody who has only unlocked for example Mesmer and Monk skills on your account you should know that you don't have access to other profession's elites, unless you cap them on your account...
/sarcasm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasareth
In essence, the question can be rephrased: "why can't I use my skill to cheat the system and use a factions skill"
Cheating the system? By wanting a skill to work the way it's supposed to work? You're funny.
If using the skill would actually *unlock* factions-skills for your account, or if you could *permanently* keep the stolen skill, then yes, you'd have a point. But the way these skills work you only have the stolen skills for a couple of seconds, after that they're gone again - no unlock for your account either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasareth
This is the only way I see it as even remotely practical. And the answer to that question, in my opinion, is because you cannot use faction skills unless you have factions.
And if this is the way it is and will remain (which I highly doubt), there should be separate PvP arenas for Prophecies *only* and Factions *only* characters - nicely divided to ensure that every player can actually use every skill they might eventually steal from another player.

Adrienne

Site Contributor

Join Date: Jan 2006

Quote:
Then they should remove the skills that are not working properly from the game. inspired hex, inspired enchant, arcane theivery, arcane mimicry and all copies of them. Right now they are bugged and not working...so they should be fixed...or removed.
Quote:
If you have in the description "it replace with that skill or hex unless it belongs to another chapter" than ok. Do it, change the description. But actually I can't read this anywhere. So actually those skills are not working 100% how intended.

Problem is when more and more chapters comes out, and more and more skills will be around I ask myself : how many skills will stop working correctly due to chapter conflict?
Quote:
Cheating the system? By wanting a skill to work the way it's supposed to work? You're funny.
I'd like to know what you guys are using as a basis for saying the skill isn't working as intended. It does exactly what it says... it is replaced with the other skill. It doesn't say that it's able to be used. Please quote me a source in-game that supports your points, not "well it should be this way" or "well since it doesn't work this way it's broken."

Quote:
Right...and as somebody who has only unlocked for example Mesmer and Monk skills on your account you should know that you don't have access to other profession's elites, unless you cap them on your account...
Your comparison is not on the same basis. Having a skill unlocked on your account and having an entirely seperate, stand-alone chapter active are two seperate things. They can't be compared because they don't work in the same manner, barring ambiguous analogies. Arena Net has made it clear in the past that unless you have Factions, you can't use Factions skills. I see no variation from their precedence here.

Siren

Siren

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

I'm surprised there's any debate over this. The OP's case is completely reasonable here. The Inspired Hexes of the game will not function properly if by some chance they copy a Factions skill. The owner's access or lack thereof to Factions is completely incidental here...almost to the point of being irrelevant. Because the fact of the matter is, Inspired Hex and the skills like it were always understood to capture other skills for use, if only temporarily.

Yes, the description itself uses "replace."

But honestly, realistically, and seriously...how many of us ever understood those skills to only be replacing and not allowing us to use a Migraine on the opposing Mesmer?

That's what I thought.

And that's exactly why I don't see some of these rebuttals as having much intelligence or logical reasoning behind them. Because we all know what Inspired Hex is supposed to do. Because we all know what it does. And most importantly, because we all have either used it or seen it used at some point or another and know exactly what's going to happen after that: the copied skill is going to get rocked around on the battlefield.

Is the OP's request a desire to cheat? Absolutely not. He's not looking to cheat the system at all. All he's asking is for a handful of skills to be revised so that they can function correctly in the new game environment.

And that's not such an absurd request. Grabbing something like Conjure Nightmare or a random Rit hex isn't going to pose a huge threat, because, like the problems we see presently with Inspired Hex-ish skills, the copied skill usually has a crap performance due to the player not even having the attribute spread to support it, and that's if they happen to be of the skill's original profession, which sometimes isn't the case at all.

Giving players the ability to use Factions skills when they manage to grab one when using Inspired Hex-ish skills would be cheating?

The Inspired Hex skills themselves can be considered cheat skills. I mean, hell...we've got Arcane Thievery/Larceny for crying out loud.

From a philosophical standpoint...it makes more sense for Inspired Hexers (and their ilk) to be able to use any skill they copy with Inspired Hex, etc. Because they're using a thief skill to begin with that bypasses profession limitations.

And if that's not an option, then the description itself needs to be changed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftygem
IMO they're wasting a good opportunity for a 20s Factions demo for someone who doesn't have it.
QFT

generik

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrienne
I'd like to know what you guys are using as a basis for saying the skill isn't working as intended. It does exactly what it says... it is replaced with the other skill. It doesn't say that it's able to be used. Please quote me a source in-game that supports your points, not "well it should be this way" or "well since it doesn't work this way it's broken."
Wow.. what's this? Playing the wordsmith aren't we?

So tell me, where in the spell description does it say "and only usable if you have paid for the campaign the spell is from"?

It doesn't affect me, since I neither play mesmer and paid for Factions, but hey, this is YET another example of Anet's anal small minded thinking.

Argen

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2005

Shadow Nation [SN]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrienne
I'd like to know what you guys are using as a basis for saying the skill isn't working as intended. It does exactly what it says... it is replaced with the other skill. It doesn't say that it's able to be used. Please quote me a source in-game that supports your points, not "well it should be this way" or "well since it doesn't work this way it's broken."
I would like to point out the supreme stupidity that comes around from this line of thinking...

Arcane Echo Core 15 2 30
Enchantment Spell. If you cast a "spell" in the next 20 seconds, Arcane Echo is replaced with that spell for 20 seconds. Arcane Echo ends prematurely if you use a non-spell skill.

I'll see if I can put this into your perspective... "Hmmm... so I cast Meteor Shower, Arcane Echo... and get to stare at my pretty 'locked' icon of Meteor Shower??? Yes, yes I do... because it replaced Arcane Echo, and replaced doesn't mean I can use it???"

No, I think the idea behind the Inspired and Revealed Hex and Enchantments is like Arcane Echo; you use the skill than can cast it as if it was on your skill bar. The probable reason that they didn't get revamped for this is because they are relatively limited in their use; as a monk I've sometimes used them for energy management, but not for throwing around enchantments and hexes. So, I doubt the folks at ArenaNet have even noticed.

Zui

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2006

The Benecia Renovatio [RenO]

Mo/

There is no valid argument here as to why Inspired Hex shouldn't be able to use the replaced hex.

Look at the skill descriptions for Echo and Arcane Echo. Even Arcane Mimicry(which says "becomes" instead of "replaced" it's that's still the exact same concept).

Either fix the usage of this skill, and any other skills such as Revealed Hex, Inspired Hex, and Arcane Mimicry, or change the description of the skills.

However if the description is changed, it's essentialy giving the owners of multiple chapters an unfair advantage, by allowing them to potentialy gain more from the usage of one spell.

Mandy Memory

Mandy Memory

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2005

USA

Xen of Sigils [XoO]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrienne
I'd like to know what you guys are using as a basis for saying the skill isn't working as intended. It does exactly what it says... it is replaced with the other skill. It doesn't say that it's able to be used. Please quote me a source in-game that supports your points, not "well it should be this way" or "well since it doesn't work this way it's broken."
Simple:

Remove a Hex from target ally and gain 3-13 Energy. For 20 seconds, Inspired Hex is replaced by the Hex that was removed.

Right now it isnt replaced by the Hex that was removed if you do not own the chapter it is from...Its replaced with the icon because the actual hex is nonexistant.

Sunai

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
Yes, the description itself uses "replace."

But honestly, realistically, and seriously...how many of us ever understood those skills to only be replacing and not allowing us to use a Migraine on the opposing Mesmer?
"Yeah, yeah, it technically says x. But we've always thought it meant y, so if it isn't y then it's broken!"?

Really, where were there locked skills like this before Factions? New things sometimes let you see others in a new light.

Skill descriptions are very strict in their definitions. Not being able to use a skill when you don't have the campaign it's in is not within the realm of the Inspired Hex skill. If Inspired Hex successfully removes a hex, then it gives you energy. The skillbar is really just a bunch of shortcuts, so it removes the link to Inspired Hex and replaces it with a link to the hex spell it removed. It then waits 20 seconds, and reverts it.

The hex is actually there. It isn't "nonexistant". It has to give it to the content owners somehow. But along with the "are you wielding the right weapon?" type checks, comes the "do you own the right campaign?" check. But this is done when you try to use a skill. Inspired Hex doesn't try to use it for you; it doesn't even say you can use it. Just that it's replaced by it. And, really, the link to Inspired Hex was indeed replaced by a link to the hex you removed. This is why it isn't broken. It does exactly what it says. Telling us that you interpreted it differently is a poor reason to call it "broken".

Now, whether it should grant special access is a bit different. It doesn't matter to me either way as I own both expansions, but I'm not against it.

robrobrob

Banned

Join Date: May 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasareth
In essence, the question can be rephrased: "why can't I use my skill to cheat the system and use a factions skill"

This is the only way I see it as even remotely practical. And the answer to that question, in my opinion, is because you cannot use faction skills unless you have factions.
I can see and understand your argument and reasoning, but it isn't cheating the system really.

"Why can't I use my skill to cheat the system and use two elites?" Arcane Mimicry lets you.

"Why can't I use a Protection Prayers spell I haven't unlocked?" Arcane Thievery/Larceny lets you.

That's how Mesmer skills work. They do give you loopholes.

Siren

Siren

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunai
"Yeah, yeah, it technically says x. But we've always thought it meant y, so if it isn't y then it's broken!"?
It's not a matter of thinking a description meant Y. It's a matter of knowing a description meant Y. And in these cases, all players who have ever used the Inspired Hex-type skills know precisely what those skill descriptions are going to mean. New chapters should not change that at all. Pay attention to the word "think" versus the word "know" here, because it's a very important distinction here. The players KNOW what Inspired Hex is supposed to do. Because it does it with Prophecies skills. And like I just said...new chapters should not change how that process works. Read robrobrob's post above me. "That's how Mesmer skills work. They do give you loopholes." He is absolutely correct.

Quote:
Really, where were there locked skills like this before Factions? New things sometimes let you see others in a new light.

Skill descriptions are very strict in their definitions. Not being able to use a skill when you don't have the campaign it's in is not within the realm of the Inspired Hex skill. If Inspired Hex successfully removes a hex, then it gives you energy. The skillbar is really just a bunch of shortcuts, so it removes the link to Inspired Hex and replaces it with a link to the hex spell it removed. It then waits 20 seconds, and reverts it.

The hex is actually there. It isn't "nonexistant". It has to give it to the content owners somehow. But along with the "are you wielding the right weapon?" type checks, comes the "do you own the right campaign?" check. But this is done when you try to use a skill. Inspired Hex doesn't try to use it for you; it doesn't even say you can use it. Just that it's replaced by it. And, really, the link to Inspired Hex was indeed replaced by a link to the hex you removed. This is why it isn't broken. It does exactly what it says. Telling us that you interpreted it differently is a poor reason to call it "broken".
You're making this far too complicated than it should ever be. And your above paragraphs might as well be considered spam, because they're not even addressing the issue at hand. If I were so inclined, I'd say you were trying to dodge the issue here by fudging out a response. But you aren't a spin-doctor...so please...don't try to be. lol

In fact...I re-read your above paragraphs, and you aren't saying anything important. In fact, you aren't even making a point. You're crapping out some vague, meandering response that haphazardly jumbles together some bizarre tangents about "links" in skills. You're bordering on lame philosophical discourse and it just doesn't work for you.

Magda

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
It's not a matter of thinking a description meant Y. It's a matter of knowing a description meant Y. And in these cases, all players who have ever used the Inspired Hex-type skills know precisely what those skill descriptions are going to mean. New chapters should not change that at all. Pay attention to the word "think" versus the word "know" here, because it's a very important distinction here. The players KNOW what Inspired Hex is supposed to do. Because it does it with Prophecies skills. And like I just said...new chapters should not change how that process works. Read robrobrob's post above me. "That's how Mesmer skills work. They do give you loopholes." He is absolutely correct.
No- Inspired hex does exactly what it's description says and means. It removes a hex and is replaced by that hex for 20 seconds. It says nothing at all about whether or not you can actually use that hex in any way. As for "all players who have ever used the Inspired Hex-type skills know precisely what those skill descriptions are going to mean, I've been using inspired hex since the beta weekends before prophecies release, and I don't expect it to allow me to cast skills in a chapter I don't own.

Being able to use the hex that replaces Inspired Hex is an occasional benefit of the skill, it's not part of the function of the skill. The inability to cast a spell you don't own is completely unrelated to whether or not some other effect(inspired hex, etc) can give you that skill temporarily on your skill bar.

You bring up that mesmer skills "break the rules". Yes- they break the rules in exactly the way that the skill description says. Arcane mimicry reads " For 20 seconds, Arcane Mimicry becomes the elite spell from target other ally." So, for 20 seconds, Arcane Mimicry becomes a second elite skill on your bar, because the skill description says so. I see nowhere in the skill description for inspired hex saying "For 20 seconds, you can cast that hex", instead it says "for 20 seconds, Inspired Hex is replaced by that spell".

As for comparing skills from other chapters to skills that you don't have unlocked, there is a significant difference. If I own prophecies, and steal Migraine with inspired hex, even if I don't have Migraine unlocked, I have the possibility of unlocking/having that skill. Conversely, I only have Factions and steal it with Revealed hex, there is no way that I could have Migraine without owning Prophecies.

In any case, what any of us think makes no difference. Everything discussed here is based off of people's interpretations of the intent and descriptions of the skills. The only interpretation that really matters is the interpretation given by ArenaNet- which quite obviously seems to be "you cannot use skills from a chapter that you do not own".

Quote:
Originally Posted by generik
So tell me, where in the spell description does it say "and only usable if you have paid for the campaign the spell is from"?

It doesn't affect me, since I neither play mesmer and paid for Factions, but hey, this is YET another example of Anet's anal small minded thinking.
Where in the description does it say "that skill is useable, regardless of if you own the campaign the spell is from"? The fact of the matter is, the description says nothing about whether you are able to use the skill. If I use Arcane Mimicry to copy Eviscerate from an ally, and I have no axe on my character, I am unable to use that skill because I don't meet the requirement of having an axe. If I use Inspired Hex to steal Shadow Shroud and don't have access to Factions, I am unable to use that skill because I don't meet the requirement of having Factions...

generik

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magda

Where in the description does it say "that skill is useable, regardless of if you own the campaign the spell is from"? The fact of the matter is, the description says nothing about whether you are able to use the skill. If I use Arcane Mimicry to copy Eviscerate from an ally, and I have no axe on my character, I am unable to use that skill because I don't meet the requirement of having an axe. If I use Inspired Hex to steal Shadow Shroud and don't have access to Factions, I am unable to use that skill because I don't meet the requirement of having Factions...
Well since you want to play the wordsmith then perhaps I should turn the tables on you and counter by asking where does it say it is not usable? Likewise is a skill defined by Anet in any literature that came with the game as "can be not usable"?

What the hell, so Inspired Hex becomes the skill, when's the last time you've seen an equiped skill that is not usable? Oh right, none, it never happens. Please don't use the axe skill while wielding sword example, it is not even a valid analogy. By the way I took a look at the skill trader in Kaineng at the new Factions only skills, and none of them say that something to the effect of "this skill is only usable for faction account holders". Nope, doesn't happen. It never says that. And hence for all intents and purposes the "skill" you cloned using inspired hex is a valid skill, and currently it is broken when players cannot cast it.

I've made my point, I've heard all you've got to make. If anything yours was really weak.

Lastly in retort to all your BS spindoctor arguments, you cannot deny then that the mere existence of factions put GW:P users of inspired hex at a disadvantage?

Why?

Solely for the reason that when said mesmer is playing against another mesmer who've unlocked subsequent chapters, previously he can not only remove the hex from his ally, gain energy (blah blah and all that bullshit), but he can also foist it back to his opponent, returning the good favor where it came from.

Now you can't. Along with many strategic limitations

Whether you've "unlocked" it or not is of no major consequence, this "loophole" is so extremely situational that only a nutjob will make a build solely for the express purpose of swindling a few dollars out of Anet.

What it all boils down to?

Pretty much the same with the stupid walkways and the recurring round after round after round of nerf bats, Anet's anal smallmindedness.

And that is something you cannot refute in face of current evidence.

Sunai

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
You're making this far too complicated than it should ever be. And your above paragraphs might as well be considered spam, because they're not even addressing the issue at hand. If I were so inclined, I'd say you were trying to dodge the issue here by fudging out a response. But you aren't a spin-doctor...so please...don't try to be. lol
How is how the spell works off-topic and "far too complicated"?

Oh, right. It's not a "Well, I thought it was this, so that's how it should be." response.

Everyone "knew" that it worked that way until Factions was released because there were no locked skills. Now there are - oh no, something new! Inspired Hex isn't broken, you just have something else to think about. I'm sure the "players" also "know", though, that this hasn't even been thought up in a skill balancing session. Because they're good at just "knowing" these types of things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by generik
Well since you want to play the wordsmith then perhaps I should turn the tables on you and counter by asking where does it say it is not usable?
Calling people "wordsmiths" when they explain how a spell works to you doesn't help either. It doesn't need to say it isn't useable. You know that some skills are restricted by campaign, so it doesn't need to spell it out for you. The popup is to tell you how the spell itself works, not the game. It's like adding "If you have no energy, then you can't cast it" or "If the target is resistant to cold, it will do less damage" to the descriptions.

That said, I believe that it tells you that you need Factions if you get a skill that belongs to it. But not Inspired Hex, because it's not even dealing with using any skills.

Siren

Siren

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magda
No- Inspired hex does exactly what it's description says and means. It removes a hex and is replaced by that hex for 20 seconds. It says nothing at all about whether or not you can actually use that hex in any way. As for "all players who have ever used the Inspired Hex-type skills know precisely what those skill descriptions are going to mean, I've been using inspired hex since the beta weekends before prophecies release, and I don't expect it to allow me to cast skills in a chapter I don't own.

Being able to use the hex that replaces Inspired Hex is an occasional benefit of the skill, it's not part of the function of the skill. The inability to cast a spell you don't own is completely unrelated to whether or not some other effect(inspired hex, etc) can give you that skill temporarily on your skill bar.

You bring up that mesmer skills "break the rules". Yes- they break the rules in exactly the way that the skill description says. Arcane mimicry reads " For 20 seconds, Arcane Mimicry becomes the elite spell from target other ally." So, for 20 seconds, Arcane Mimicry becomes a second elite skill on your bar, because the skill description says so. I see nowhere in the skill description for inspired hex saying "For 20 seconds, you can cast that hex", instead it says "for 20 seconds, Inspired Hex is replaced by that spell".

As for comparing skills from other chapters to skills that you don't have unlocked, there is a significant difference. If I own prophecies, and steal Migraine with inspired hex, even if I don't have Migraine unlocked, I have the possibility of unlocking/having that skill. Conversely, I only have Factions and steal it with Revealed hex, there is no way that I could have Migraine without owning Prophecies.

In any case, what any of us think makes no difference. Everything discussed here is based off of people's interpretations of the intent and descriptions of the skills. The only interpretation that really matters is the interpretation given by ArenaNet- which quite obviously seems to be "you cannot use skills from a chapter that you do not own".

Where in the description does it say "that skill is useable, regardless of if you own the campaign the spell is from"? The fact of the matter is, the description says nothing about whether you are able to use the skill. If I use Arcane Mimicry to copy Eviscerate from an ally, and I have no axe on my character, I am unable to use that skill because I don't meet the requirement of having an axe. If I use Inspired Hex to steal Shadow Shroud and don't have access to Factions, I am unable to use that skill because I don't meet the requirement of having Factions...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunai
How is how the spell works off-topic and "far too complicated"?

Oh, right. It's not a "Well, I thought it was this, so that's how it should be." response.

Everyone "knew" that it worked that way until Factions was released because there were no locked skills. Now there are - oh no, something new! Inspired Hex isn't broken, you just have something else to think about. I'm sure the "players" also "know", though, that this hasn't even been thought up in a skill balancing session. Because they're good at just "knowing" these types of things.

Calling people "wordsmiths" when they explain how a spell works to you doesn't help either. It doesn't need to say it isn't useable. You know that some skills are restricted by campaign, so it doesn't need to spell it out for you. The popup is to tell you how the spell itself works, not the game. It's like adding "If you have no energy, then you can't cast it" or "If the target is resistant to cold, it will do less damage" to the descriptions.

That said, I believe that it tells you that you need Factions if you get a skill that belongs to it. But not Inspired Hex, because it's not even dealing with using any skills.
For the both of you, I'm going to ask one question so your bullshit can end:

What has Inspired Hex always done?

You want to talk about the intent of the skill? Talk about what Inspired Hex has always done.

If you give me a meandering response again that doesn't come anywhere close to actually addressing the point, instead trying to pull some craptacular spin-doctoring, I'm going to request that your posts be deleted, because as far as I'm concerned...they're not contributing to the thread, because they're not saying anything meaningful. "The skill description doesn't say those copied skills would be useable" is not a valid response, because the Inspired Hexes of the game give us the ability to use those copied skills. That's their effect.

misthero

misthero

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2005

I Falchi Bianchi [Puck]

E/Mo

Quote:
It doesn't need to say it isn't useable.
So are you telling me there are "chapter close skills"? So we have some skills that only work "correctly" (oh sorry read this: "work one way") interacting only with his own chapter skills, and incorrectly (oh, sorry again, read this: "work a different way") interacting with other chapter skills.

Ok great, and what about balance?

Inspired Hex is just 1 example about what this can become past some years.
If Guild Wars survive 10 years ( I hope this) we are going to see like 12-14 chapters more.
Do we have to expect sometime to see skills only interruptable using the "right chapter skills" (hahaha you nOOb can't interrupt me, you don't purchased last chapter)?
Are we going to see unremovable kind of hexes becouse we don't own the right campaign?
(Poor monk your convert Hexes is not going to work with my Chapter 7 Super-Hex!!)

Ye, I know those are fantastic stupid example, but is only to show what I fear with the example of "inspired hex".

Anoyone really imagine I can make a viable build with the idea of "replacing" different chapters casual skills?
If someone doesn't own Factions is not going to be an Assassin or Ritualist primary or secondary profession, so having for 20 seconds an Assassin or Ritualist skill is pretty no use for him.

I'm not sayin "I don't wanna buy Factions but I wanna copy Factions skill to own in pvp!", becouse "I have Factions" and becouse "none would own in pvp that way".

Actually I can play every skill in every chapter (hey, I paid for that).
But is the idea behind what my guildy discovered, that I don't like.

And this idea is what I wanna discuss here, not the REAL obscure meaning hidden behind the Insperd Hex skill description.

I really think this is a bug or a mistake and would be no harm for them to make those unuseful stealed skill "clickable".

thrashbasket

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2005

[cape]

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by generik
Please don't use the axe skill while wielding sword example, it is not even a valid analogy.
yes it is. eviscerate requires axe equipped is analogous to images of remorse requires factions key added to account.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
the Inspired Hexes of the game give us the ability to use those copied skills. That's their effect.
no. their effect is to put the hex on your skillbar. THAT'S ALL.

Siren

Siren

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

Quote:
Originally Posted by thrashbasket
no. their effect is to put the hex on your skillbar. THAT'S ALL.
Bull. The effect is putting the hex on your skillbar so you can use it against the enemy. Try it. We have guild scrimmages now so you can try it, so you'll be able to stop talking out of your ass. lol

thrashbasket

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2005

[cape]

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
The effect is putting the hex on your skillbar so you can use it against the enemy.
of course! how could i have missed that?[/sarcasm] still doesn't change that if you haven't paid for factions, you don't get to use factions content.

Zui

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2006

The Benecia Renovatio [RenO]

Mo/

This is pathetic...

Ok so you have a skill on your skillbar. It is not recharging, and you have sufficient energy to use it. Why should you not be able to use it? The entire point of your skillbar is you should be able to use skills, assuming you can meet the required cost for said skills, and said skills are not recharging.



Not being able to use the "replaced" hex if you don't own the chapter that hex is from is a serious balance issue. ANET has even said that you won't be at a disadvantage if you don't purchase multiple chapters, the way this skill currently works goes against that.

I own both Factions and Prophicies, however lets say I only own prophicies:

I use Inspired Hex on a hex from Factions. That hex is then placed on my skillbar. I have diversion on me, and there is no hex removals left available on my team. I need to cast. If I owned both chapters, I could burn the hex that I recently removed, but since I don't I'm at an inherent strategic disadvantage, one that I would not be in if I owned both chapters.



If Inspired Hex wasn't meant to let you use the hexes you remove, then why can people use hexes from chapters they own with it? I mean the skill description only says "replaced" it never said you can use them. Of course, it does let you use them. So your entire 'point' is invalid.

misthero

misthero

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2005

I Falchi Bianchi [Puck]

E/Mo

To ppls yelling: "the skill is replaced but this doesn't mean you can use it"

I give you these examples:

RULES of the game: You can't use or equip in your skillbar any LOCKED SKILL in your account, doesn't matter PvP or PvE.

FACT: if you steal 1 LOCKED SKILL (in your account) with Inspered Hex (or any similar) you can USE it.

RULES of the game: you can't use or equip in your skillbar any skill of any profession different from your first 2 professions.

FACT: If you have a Monk/Mesmer and steal a necro hex you can use it(with poor or none effect but you can).

Don't give me the example of axes or sword skills, becouse my monk uses a sword as secondary weapon so I possibly can use a stealed sword skill. AND if your warrior hasn't an axe he can't use an axe skill either, but that's how axe skills works!!

Why if I'm mesmer secondary I can't use a mesmer hex (factions) that DON'T require axes or sword or wathever?

This is GAMEPLAY. Nothing to do with money you paid.

Sunai

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
Bull. The effect is putting the hex on your skillbar so you can use it against the enemy.
Skill descriptions have never stated or implied a purpose. They tell you strictly what it does, and allow you to think up it's purpose instead.

It tells you what it does, and does it just fine. What it's "supposed" to be used for is up to you. I don't see skills like Parasitic Bond telling me that "this skill is only for a quick heal when your target is close to death".

To answer your big question, I've been telling you practically every post now. Including that one you labelled off-topic.

So, stay on topic please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misthero
Don't give me the example of axes or sword skills, becouse my monk uses a sword as secondary weapon so I possibly can use a stealed sword skill. AND if your warrior hasn't an axe he can't use an axe skill either, but that's how axe skills works!!
So because you possess a sword, that means you can use a sword skill.
And if my warrior does not possess an axe, he can't use an axe skill.
And if you do not possess a Factions enabled account, you can't use Factions-specific skills. Why does the first two make the third unjustifiable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by misthero
Why if I'm mesmer secondary I can't use a mesmer hex (factions) that DON'T require axes or sword or wathever?

This is GAMEPLAY. Nothing to do with money you paid.
While it may not require a specific weapon, it does require a specific campaign.

Content is linked to the money you've paid, so it is far from irrelevant.