Improvements on the Assasin
Phades
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Originally Posted by lord_shar
My warrior using standard gladiators (80AL) + shield (AL16) gets vs 96AL vs. all attacks, and 116 vs. physical attacks. Then there's Watch-Yourself (+20AL) and Dolyak Signet(~+38) for +58AL on top of the above. Now factor in Ascalon/Knight's armor piece (-2 damage reduction), superior absorbtion rune (-3), and a dual-DR shield (-2 stance/-2 enchant), and you get -9 consistent DR per attack. This translates into a lot of zero-dmg hits whenever my warrior tanks <= L20 mobs.
Assassins, even with a +10 to +15 armor upgrade, will never approach the armor levels and sheer damage mitigation warriors are capable of. Add +5 for the defensive mod and you have the same numbers i was working with. The difference is 11 AL and -7 damage reduction against all sources, but physical. Watch yourself is a flat 20, regardless of who uses it, but dolyak has some play to it. The point is, the assassin setup that way is only 11 AL less and should only be in combat long enough to deliver the combo before bowing out to avoid attracting hate. The things that willl smoke the assasssin, will also smoke just about every other character out there due to the damage buffing to the unique/boss monsters.
The assassin is not a warrior and should not tank. Just use standard tactics employed before factions and treat the assassin like a caster. The difference is that, the assassin is not a dot character like a warrior or a ranger, it is a spike character. Thats it really. Just try running around with the AL90 and use the single tank strategy, just dont do it on a mission where you are trying to hold out against waves of monsters from 3 different directions or getting popped with dark chain lightning and come back and say that it doesn't work out good enough. In all likelyhood you will take some hits, but it wont be as bad as wearing the +energy armor, or the +hp armor, or whatever was the preference before realize that the assassin is a "soft" target.
Assassins, even with a +10 to +15 armor upgrade, will never approach the armor levels and sheer damage mitigation warriors are capable of. Add +5 for the defensive mod and you have the same numbers i was working with. The difference is 11 AL and -7 damage reduction against all sources, but physical. Watch yourself is a flat 20, regardless of who uses it, but dolyak has some play to it. The point is, the assassin setup that way is only 11 AL less and should only be in combat long enough to deliver the combo before bowing out to avoid attracting hate. The things that willl smoke the assasssin, will also smoke just about every other character out there due to the damage buffing to the unique/boss monsters.
The assassin is not a warrior and should not tank. Just use standard tactics employed before factions and treat the assassin like a caster. The difference is that, the assassin is not a dot character like a warrior or a ranger, it is a spike character. Thats it really. Just try running around with the AL90 and use the single tank strategy, just dont do it on a mission where you are trying to hold out against waves of monsters from 3 different directions or getting popped with dark chain lightning and come back and say that it doesn't work out good enough. In all likelyhood you will take some hits, but it wont be as bad as wearing the +energy armor, or the +hp armor, or whatever was the preference before realize that the assassin is a "soft" target.
lord_shar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phades
Rangers are soft targets as well, but they have conditional +30AL vs. elements, and this can go an additional +15AL higher depending on the chosen ranger armor. My ranger has never sustained damage at the same pace as my assassin despite going into point-blank range to body-block for agroed monks.
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Originally Posted by Phades
The assassin is not a warrior and should not tank. Just use standard tactics employed before factions and treat the assassin like a caster. The difference is that, the assassin is not a dot character like a warrior or a ranger, it is a spike character. Thats it really. Just try running around with the AL90 and use the single tank strategy, just dont do it on a mission where you are trying to hold out against waves of monsters from 3 different directions or getting popped with dark chain lightning and come back and say that it doesn't work out good enough. In all likelyhood you will take some hits, but it wont be as bad as wearing the +energy armor, or the +hp armor, or whatever was the preference before realize that the assassin is a "soft" target.
Based on recent observations, assassins are now the least-desired party member (outpacing the mesmer as most-hated-in-pve from what I've seen) due to their incredibily high mortality rates. The reputation has been earned. Even using shadow-stepping abilities with a 4-second AoD delivery window, why is my assassin with end-game L70 armor, 521 life, and critical-defenses active (72% block) returning at <= 50% life after every teleport-sortie? I can't attribute this to lack-of-skill... not with a 4-second teleport trip. Watch-Yourself cannot be activated without initial adrenelin, so it won't be up during the initial attack. Yes, I've tried a +5 defensive pommel, and the 12.5% damage mitigation doesn't help enough to be effective.
Ring of Fire was quite an eye opener. Another friend of mine gave up on using the assassin since no one will accept the character in groups anymore. The average assassin has very slim chances of joining PUG elite mission groups. Need I go on? PS: Prior to the Shadow Refuge nerf, the assassin was self-sustaining and feasible. Post-SR brings us today's present scenario. Chikara
they nerfed temple strike
they nerfed shadow refuge they nerfed Aura of displacement they nerfed Golden phoenix.. next? We are not going to be useful just because Palm strike can do 80damage or because sometimes we can heal ourselves 110life or because we can use more often deadly arts skill... come on Anet... wake up They HAVE TO compare sins with other classes... look at others skills, they can break us down so easly i mean...
Karmaniac
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There is no conspiracy. Nobody is in charge. It's a headless blunder operating under the illusion of a master plan.
From one of my favourite movies if you can name from which more kudos to you. |
As was pointed out by Phades assassin is in essence a caster. But moreover it has some resemblance to warrior too. Therefore it has the weaknesses of both but only limited ways to cope with them. For example if you're using 4 skills to deliver your combo you're left with 4 slots. One for rez/cap and you're down to 3. These 3 slots are to ensure your safety: healing, evasion, teleporting, running, hex/condition removal, energy management etc. ATM self-healing is flawed. Way of perfection is less effective than the recently buffed vigorous spirit. The other choices are no better working erratically at best. Same goes for critical defenses. It's quite impossible to keep it up reliably for any amount of time without wild blow. But the thing I feel needs fixing badly is combo system. Would it really throw the game off-balance if you could still hit your target even if your lead/off-hand was evaded/blocked? Come on we're already getting out skinny asses handed out to us. Summa summarum: 1. Better self-heal/damage mitigation (crit defenses at 7 secs for example) 2. More reliable spike
Phades
Quote:
Originally Posted by lord_shar
Rangers are soft targets as well, but they have conditional +30AL vs. elements, and this can go an additional +15AL higher depending on the chosen ranger armor. My ranger has never sustained damage at the same pace as my assassin despite going into point-blank range to body-block for agroed monks. |
Quote: Originally Posted by TheMosesPHD Even using shadow-stepping abilities with a 4-second AoD delivery window, why is my assassin with end-game L70 armor, 521 life, and critical-defenses active (72% block) returning at <= 50% life after every teleport-sortie? At AL 90 you reduce that damage by another 40%. Use it and love it, you will not be as ripped up as before. Its just like how warriors in full suits of knights and ascalon armor were critized or the choice of bringing full platemail.
Also, depending on the teleport location, the warrior can activate watch yourself on your arrival. Yeah, that requires teamwork, but it is a team game.
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No defensive stances were being used by my ranger during previously listed scenario. It occured in Tomb of Primeval Kings PvE, where Chaos Fingers renders all dodge/evasion useless.|
Originally Posted by TheMosesPHD
I can't attribute this to lack-of-skill
I am not accusing you of anything, just suggesting you try it before you dissmiss it.
lord_shar
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Originally Posted by Phades
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EDIT: Yes, I've tried Watch-Yourself... it's not enough...
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The problem with the above suggestion:|
Originally Posted by Phades
Also, depending on the teleport location, the warrior can activate watch yourself on your arrival. Yeah, that requires teamwork, but it is a team game.
I am not accusing you of anything, just suggesting you try it before you dissmiss it. 1) Assassin players cannot force other warriors to carry Watch-Yourself just because the assassin class' personal armor levels are deficient 2) Assassins are treated as high-priority targets like monks, so they immediately draw agro the moment the tanking player moves. 3) Assassin self healing is insufficient for any high level pve encounter, thereby inherently over-taxing healing monks the moment the assassin gains agro. I'm not denying that +20AL via Watch-Yourself isn't useful. However, the +5 defense dagger grips and Watch-Yourself are not enough to overcome the assassin class's present mortality problems. If you don't believe me, try finding a non-guild group with your assassin in the Deep or Warrens. If you don't have access to those zones, try completing the Ring of Fire missions if you haven't already done so. You might start understanding some of my listed concerns... Maellus
Assassins do not need exta armor for their defenses. What they need is more ways to avoid or reduce damage through skills. Maybe even throw on a perk for shadowstepping into a mob that reduces or negates the damage from the next attack. Give it a max duration of 5 or so seconds and we're in business (if you need an explanation, put it up to suprise or some remaining ethereal vapors obscuring the target).
Not to mention the range of shadow stepping to a target is within normal spell range, which means that if the monks you're going for are where they're supposed to be (just within spell range of the frontliners) you would actually have to deal with the melee fighters (perhaps taking a few hits when going in for the step). Come on! You can return to a point using a shadow step from the whole radar's distance away, yet you can't move farther towards an opponent than the aggro circle? It's not like anything is blocking your path! I also find it strange that a caster's weapon does 3-5 more damage than that of an assassins, even if the wand/staff attacks slower. Casters hardly rely on their weapon's damage, azn's do. Not to mention a sword attacks at the same speed and does somewhere between 5-8 more damage on average. Assassins should attack either attack faster or get 9-19 as max. Attacking faster would increase the number of critical hits in a fixed period of time, meaning a higher effectiveness of skills that rely on crits. Also increasing the damage or speed of daggers would help to improve the damage down time between combos. Maybe instead of altering the daggers themselves, the devs could increase the critical rate or double strike rate (maybe perhaps both). Maybe crit chance increasing it by 1.25-1.5% per rank of critcals could help balance the level differences in PvE (as messing with the game engine for assassins alone is kinda messy not to mention stupid). That would yield a bonus of 20-31.5% at rank 16 rather than just 16%. Or maybe they could increase the rate of double strike chance increase per rank to 2.5, which would yield at most a 40% to double strike (60% with locust's fury), which would technically increase the attack speed to .95 per strike (without locust's fury, .83 with). Either of these I would take over straight damage because there is still the chance your opponent can luck out and take less damage (or run out of luck and take more) than usual.
lord_shar
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Originally Posted by Maellus
...<SNIP>... |
1) lots of extra coding required
2) more skill slots consumed for damage reduction. Assassins already need 4+ attack skills to perform most dagger combinations, leaving fewer buttons for other utility functions like healing, condition delivery, etc...
Extra armor, whether standard or conditional, is the easiest solution to implement without the coding overhead.
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Originally Posted by Maellus
I also find it strange that a caster's weapon does 3-5 more damage than that of an assassins, even if the wand/staff attacks slower. Casters hardly rely on their weapon's damage, azn's do. Not to mention a sword attacks at the same speed and does somewhere between 5-8 more damage on average. Assassins should attack either attack faster or get 9-19 as max. Attacking faster would increase the number of critical hits in a fixed period of time, meaning a higher effectiveness of skills that rely on crits. Also increasing the damage or speed of daggers would help to improve the damage down time between combos.
...<SNIP>... I agree here. Dagger damage should have been at least near wand damage, just to keep weapon types in perspective. If the extra damage output due to doublestriking was ANET's primary concern, then why bother with the randomness of doublestriking percentages at all? Why not just give daggers a faster attack rate to offset their lower base damage? Sometimes, the best solution is the least complicated option.
Miakoda
"Sometimes, the best solution is the least complicated option."
Simplicity in all things.
Phades
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Originally Posted by lord_shar
If you don't have access to those zones, try completing the Ring of Fire missions if you haven't already done so. You might start understanding some of my listed concerns...
I would not begin to ask for change based solely on the assumption that assassins should survive monsters designed to defeat stock warrior AL. Also, alot of damage is derived from AL ignoring sources, such as degen, deep wound, physical attack bonuses, shadow damage, etc.
Posessing the armor and grip i described raises your 4s health problem from below 50% to below 70%. Should you teleport in when the warrior used watch yourself and possessed the armor i described, your health problem goes from below 50% to below 80%. As far as healing is concerned, you can always opt for using healing from the secondary profession. Rarely do i see good wars, or any other profession for that matter, bring self heals and know what they are doing. The fallback argument of incompotent monks in pugs really isnt a argument for their effects either, its just a sign that some people stink at the game. Kick the person, find another one, then try again. The pve is not that hard and the AL suggestion makes a evasive and fast profession in pvp a hard target like warriors(read nearly unkillable).
Sidra
I'm actually dying to get on and use palm strike now because it is the staple of my build (i havent been on in 2 months, stupid school) but other than that, the update was mediocre to me. It's sort of like runescape, where i remember the promise ofplayer owned houses and other things within the year, and now 3 years later we got it. I think we just need to wait.
Also- having critical strikes ratios ignore levels/armor seems like it would solve a big hunk of the problem. That and some skill boosts would be OK. Armor is fine for me the way it is. What I want to know is, why arenanet hasn't considered any of these seemingly so far. It's like they wanted to commit suicide in Factions. they stopped at the concepts and decided that was enough, but it wasnot and now we're screwed. bah. oh, and if this post seems to make no sense, blame this laptop's keyboard. it's screwed.
lord_shar
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Originally Posted by Phades
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Armor ignoring damage treats all classes equally since such attacks remove health at a fixed rate and doesn't scale upward with lower armor values. Most classes have only ~521 to 590 health assuming no temporary skill boosts nor major/superior runes.
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Originally Posted by Phades
Posessing the armor and grip i described raises your 4s health problem from below 50% to below 70%. Should you teleport in when the warrior used watch yourself and possessed the armor i described, your health problem goes from below 50% to below 80%. As far as healing is concerned, you can always opt for using healing from the secondary profession. Rarely do i see good wars, or any other profession for that matter, bring self heals and know what they are doing. The fallback argument of incompotent monks in pugs really isnt a argument for their effects either, its just a sign that some people stink at the game. Kick the person, find another one, then try again. The pve is not that hard and the AL suggestion makes a evasive and fast profession in pvp a hard target like warriors(read nearly unkillable).
Three comments:
1) In Hell's Precipice, I noticed that the +5 armor grip didn't help significantly (previously mentioned). Watch Yourself did make a bigger impact, but it isn't usable until 4 adrenelin is gained. By the time that happened, my assassin was already below 50% health and had to retreat for healing. 2) Warriors in PUG's didn't always have Watch-Yourself. 3) My assassin never took the lead charge... that's the warrior's job. Teleport in, combo, teleport out. <= 50% life meant using heal sig (yes, tried it) + Shadow refuge. This forced my assassin to sit out of combat about 8-12 seconds before going back in for 4 seconds, then retreating another 8-12 seconds to self heal. See the problem here? 33% actual combat time, 66% recovery time = hardly optimum as a party member. I understand you are trying to help, but please believe me when I mention that I've already tried your suggestions with little success. Rephrasing the same suggestions repeatedly accross multiple posts won't improve their effectiveness. My toons have done most of the end game content except for Urgoz due to Luxon faction. I've finished the game with a warrior, necro, ranger, and assassin -- none of them has had any survival issues except for the assassin. After all, we are talking about a class that is a soft target (L70AL), given high priority target status (like monks), and melee based (close proximity agro). All three factors add up to a frequently-dead PvE party member. I like the assassin class as a whole, but it has serious survival issues that really need to be addressed. Until a permanent solution is implemented by ANET, temporary player work-arounds will only prolong the assassin's ongoing end-game survival issues. fallot
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Originally Posted by lord_shar
I like the assassin class as a whole, but it has serious survival issues that really need to be addressed. Until a permanent solution is implemented by ANET, temporary player work-arounds will only prolong the assassin's ongoing end-game survival issues.
Very true, but in my opinion, its not the Assassin that needs to be changed. If there was PvE content specifically geared towards Assassins, or containing objectives/situations where an Assassin would be a viable member of a party there would be no complaints.
sinican
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Originally Posted by fallot
Very true, but in my opinion, its not the Assassin that needs to be changed. If there was PvE content specifically geared towards Assassins, or containing objectives/situations where an Assassin would be a viable member of a party there would be no complaints.
but it is the assassin that needs changed... reason i say is because as it is right now u make content for the assassin and other classes will breeze through it...
try comparing the assassin to other classes and their survivability and their adaptability with end game missions/quests... the assassin severely lacks the ability to survive as well as any other class... no one hear is saying that assassin cant pvp...well some do... but it really is an issue of comparing the assassin with other classes in PvE... the do lack healing capabilities... and with how their 3-4 forced attack chains and their extreme dependance on their atributes a secondary profession for healing makes that assassin no longer an assassin.. during FPE i soon realized this and ultimately because of the difficulty in landing critical strikes and double strikes at that level of the game i found out is wasn't even worht the waste of atr points for them and soon found myself either being a ranger with asn primary or you fill in the blank... i realte most of the issues directly to the innability to rely on crits and dbl strikes at higher levels... and with so many points invested id expect more... the play throughout the game is fine up until the point where you ae fighting lvl 21+ mobs everyone just needs to ask themselves a single question... "what is the advantage of having an assassin in the group vs any other class for pve?" there is NONE, the assassin cannot do anything that some other class cant do(shadow stepping... please these skills only keep you OUT of combat which is an oxymoron to what the assassin is supposed to be doing...Assassinating)... KD's poison bleed spike all replaceably by other classes that have better survivability in combat... 2 warriors is better than 1 war 1 asn 2 eles are better than 1 ele and 1 asn 2 monks... 2 necros... 2 rangers... comeone there is nothing mysterious about why assassins cant get into pugs unless they are the last resort.. typically the only way i see assassins getting into groups anymore is when the Assassin is the one forming the group.... and ive even been turned down by players because of that... someone join requests then leaves because their is an asn in the party...its rediculous but how can they take blame for plain and simple the smart thing to do is to pick another player class to join the group... ever realize how 2 of any of the classes usually can make the group better... and then when 2 assassins are together in a group it makes it worse... fallot
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Originally Posted by sinican
but it is the assassin that needs changed... reason i say is because as it is right now u make content for the assassin and other classes will breeze through it... I based that comment on how an Assassin could possibly be used in a GvG. If there was a PvE situation which mimicked the way Assassins are used there, wouldn't they be effective ? What is it about Assassins that makes them effective in PvP but not PvE ? Isolate whatever it is and incorporate it into PvE and you have Assassin specific content.
lord_shar
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Originally Posted by fallot
I based that comment on how an Assassin could possibly be used in a GvG. If there was a PvE situation which mimicked the way Assassins are used there, wouldn't they be effective ?
What is it about Assassins that makes them effective in PvP but not PvE ? Isolate whatever it is and incorporate it into PvE and you have Assassin specific content. Assassins in GvG are still feasible because everyone is capped at L20. This is not the case for PvE, especially during end-game encounters like Glint, Kanaxai, etc... Even in Ring of Fire, Titan's Sparks and other mobs will cut assassins to 50% health with just 1-2 attacks. Warriors need not worry because their armor levels can reach well beyond the 100's range. Casters and rangers are also fine because their attacks are ranged. Assassins? The get the worst of both worlds... inadequate armor, point-blank melee requirement, and to top it of, high AI-target priority. Does the above answer your question? fallot
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Originally Posted by lord_shar
Does the above answer your question?
It was a rhetorical question. Everything you wrote was valid though, I agree with it entirely.
lord_shar
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Originally Posted by fallot
It was a rhetorical question. Everything you wrote was valid though, I agree with it entirely.
I apologize for not realizing the original question's intent
 <-takes off for more cofee..
Phades
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Originally Posted by lord_shar
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Quote: Originally Posted by lord_shar Armor ignoring damage treats all classes equally since such attacks remove health at a fixed rate and doesn't scale upward with lower armor values. Most classes have only ~521 to 590 health assuming no temporary skill boosts nor major/superior runes. That was my point. Not everything is solved by more AL.
Quote: Originally Posted by lord_shar 1) In Hell's Precipice, I noticed that the +5 armor grip didn't help significantly (previously mentioned). Watch Yourself did make a bigger impact, but it isn't usable until 4 adrenelin is gained. By the time that happened, my assassin was already below 50% health and had to retreat for healing. Thats fine, but you are making the comparison in parts, instead of as a whole.
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Yes, armor doesn't stop all damage, but doesn't it go without saying? |
Originally Posted by lord_shar
3) My assassin never took the lead charge... that's the warrior's job. Teleport in, combo, teleport out. <= 50% life meant using heal sig (yes, tried it) + Shadow refuge. This forced my assassin to sit out of combat about 8-12 seconds before going back in for 4 seconds, then retreating another 8-12 seconds to self heal. See the problem here? 33% actual combat time, 66% recovery time = hardly optimum as a party member.
That is the current bais against them, because they operate like a domination mesmer. The goal of your situation is to survive long enough to achieve the effect desired. Then rinse and repeate the situation as neccacary. Not many of the skills are reusable more often than 12~20s anyway. A couple of the high powered skills are on the slow side as well(fangs/aod). That downtime is largely irrellevant, considering that the majority of the damage dealt is comming from the skills anyway. The auto attack from dagger damage against lv28+ monsters is negligable and arguably pointless, much like wand attacks.
That was my point. Not everything is solved by more AL.
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What does the above have to do with assassin survival issues?
Not all mesmers use IW. Just about every assassin uses dagger skills. Regardless, I have not observed mesmer mortality rates even approaching assassins in any of the PUG groups I've encountered. Quote: |
The bulk of fatal spike damage that kills my assassin is either physical or elemental. Degen and Shadow damage don't produce the 150+ dmg hits I've witnessed from L28+ bosses. A little more base assassin class armor would help buy more survival time, even if just a small boost. Additional +armor levle skills like watch yourself and +5 defense dagger pommels can stack on top of this, thereby providing more damage mitigation that the PvE assassin sorely needs.
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..<SNIP>...
That is the current bais against them, because they operate like a domination mesmer. The goal of your situation is to survive long enough to achieve the effect desired. Then rinse and repeate the situation as neccacary. Not many of the skills are reusable more often than 12~20s anyway. A couple of the high powered skills are on the slow side as well(fangs/aod). That downtime is largely irrellevant, considering that the majority of the damage dealt is comming from the skills anyway. The auto attack from dagger damage against lv28+ monsters is negligable and arguably pointless, much like wand attacks. The problem with accepting high assassin attrition is that it still wears out healer monk energy. Many PUG healers already refuse to group with assassins. If you don't believe me, once again please try joining PUG's in the Deep or Warrens with your assassin, then post your results.
So if you are saying that armor is useful while using distortion to protect yourself more from physical assailants, that is just a smart move. To say that its as universal of protection similar to assassins gaining armor while perfoming combos before teleporting out again, well you missed the mark a little bit.
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Originally Posted by phoenixtech
Elementalist: Gets +10 while enchanted. Once again, very useful since many builds uses attunments and are enchanted.
That is the current bais against them, because they operate like a domination mesmer. The goal of your situation is to survive long enough to achieve the effect desired. Then rinse and repeate the situation as neccacary. Not many of the skills are reusable more often than 12~20s anyway. A couple of the high powered skills are on the slow side as well(fangs/aod). That downtime is largely irrellevant, considering that the majority of the damage dealt is comming from the skills anyway. The auto attack from dagger damage against lv28+ monsters is negligable and arguably pointless, much like wand attacks. The problem with accepting high assassin attrition is that it still wears out healer monk energy. Many PUG healers already refuse to group with assassins. If you don't believe me, once again please try joining PUG's in the Deep or Warrens with your assassin, then post your results.
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Not many mantras are worth playing that are actually stances. You have persistance and recovery for mantras and distortion under illusion. All of them get rather spendy and only two of them could be kept up constantly. Furthermore, you would only run persistance in a heavy illusion based hex setup. Due to the nature of fast casting, interupting a mesmer is more difficult than other professions, so resolve and concentration get thrown out as well. What you have after that are highly situational and sometimes questionable mantras that cover the elements and signets. The other two open up vulerabilities that lower armor level, which throw them out as well.|
Originally Posted by Phades
The problem is they cant boost the profession's survival without having drastic backlash into the pvp realm.
Yes, PvE assassin balancing can lead to PvP headaches. However, assassins are still melee classes. Therefore, standard melee defenses will still be effective against them (blind, disenchanting AoD, empathy, etc...). Yes, there will be a learning curve involved since the assassin is still very new, but its PvE deficiencies are already obvious and need serious corrections. Yes, ANET can just leave things as-is, but I know many friends who have already abandoned their assassins due to lack of PvE grouping opportunities being fostered by the current patch.
Grin
Okay, I'm a newb and have little experience.
That being said, I've been watching this thread and playing an assassin. Granted, I haven't made it very far so my skills and experience are limited. It seems to me that critical strikes are one problem that everyone agrees on. In same level combat it works fine. For all others it doesn't. Then you have the fact that critical strikes do so much for the assassin. I find myself doing okay until I start missing or I stop landing critical strikes. Blind or Evasion take me out of the fight real quick and I have almost no way to counter them. Also, for hit and run tactics to be effective the thing you hit pretty much has to die. This doesn't seem to happen for me if there is a healer in the opposing group, and there often is. As far as Deadly Arts go, you have to give something up to put points in it. What are you going to give up? Dagger Mastery is your primary weapon and in my experience where most of your damage skills come from. Critical Strikes keeps your energy up and provide more damage with some defense as well. Shadow Arts is your only form of healing. Would you drop your healing to get Deadly Arts? Would you drop your primary attribute for it? How about your weapon? Deadly Arts needs to fill one of those holes for it to be worth using. Right now it has no healing, moderate damage but no passive bonus like you'd get with Dagger Mastery or Critical Strikes. Okay, I think I've ranted enough. Sorry for my uninformed opinion. Just the impression I've had so far from playing an assassin.
Aisius
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Originally Posted by Grin
Okay, I'm a newb and have little experience.
That being said, I've been watching this thread and playing an assassin. Granted, I haven't made it very far so my skills and experience are limited. It seems to me that critical strikes are one problem that everyone agrees on. In same level combat it works fine. For all others it doesn't. Then you have the fact that critical strikes do so much for the assassin. I find myself doing okay until I start missing or I stop landing critical strikes. Blind or Evasion take me out of the fight real quick and I have almost no way to counter them. Also, for hit and run tactics to be effective the thing you hit pretty much has to die. This doesn't seem to happen for me if there is a healer in the opposing group, and there often is. As far as Deadly Arts go, you have to give something up to put points in it. What are you going to give up? Dagger Mastery is your primary weapon and in my experience where most of your damage skills come from. Critical Strikes keeps your energy up and provide more damage with some defense as well. Shadow Arts is your only form of healing. Would you drop your healing to get Deadly Arts? Would you drop your primary attribute for it? How about your weapon? Deadly Arts needs to fill one of those holes for it to be worth using. Right now it has no healing, moderate damage but no passive bonus like you'd get with Dagger Mastery or Critical Strikes. Okay, I think I've ranted enough. Sorry for my uninformed opinion. Just the impression I've had so far from playing an assassin. I deleted my post regarding my uninformed opinion. I have played a rogue in world of warcraft for 3 yrs and while making the assassin i noticed some similarities in the two. I'm happy to be posting on these boards about my interpretations and feel no different that someone else thinks I have no clue about the topic. Rogues use to totally suck in that game , areas like MC meant the rogue would vanish and have vanish break on an aoe attack that comes after the vanish 1 shotting the rogue, fient (reduction in aggro) used to miss repeatedly and backstab dodged parried and blocked. I'm not saying there the same and both are different games but if there is problems with the profession and I notice them at a low lvl playing the game, shouldn't I have a right to post the same as anyone else ? Standing behind the warrior would work, I have pulled yetis in the game and had two come killed the first one while the other stood behind him . This could be because I'm a newb and that at higher lvl in this game everything attacks thru things but I'm just making suggestion from my experience , I don't expect everyone else to have the same as me. phoenixtech
Here's a quick comparison of the armor options for the other classes in addition to the basic +full energy setups (shrouded armor).
Monks: Gets +10 while enchanted armor, and there's ALOT of boon prots out there so they are almost always enchanted. Total armor rating = 70. Mesmers: Gets +10 while in stance. Very useful when you are using mantras. Elementalist: Gets +10 while enchanted. Once again, very useful since many builds uses attunments and are enchanted. Rangers: Gets +10 while in stance. Very useful since rangers have many stances. Necros: Gets +5,5,5 for each minion controled, very nice for MM builds. Also has tormentors for 70 armor overall but take extra damage from holy. Ritualists: Gets +5,5,5 for each spirit controlled, +10 items being held, +10 under weapons. ALL very popular builds. Total armor rating = 70 or 75. Assasins: Gets 70 base armor for a melee class, +15 vs piercing, blunt, slashing attacks or +15 while attacking. The most practical of the armor choice aside from full energy set is the +15 while attacking for 85 armor rating while attacking. Now, What % of time is the assasin "attacking" compared to the other classes being under "enchantment", "in stance", controlling 3 spirits. I know as a spirit spammer my rit would have 75 armor say 80% of the time. I know a boon prot would have 70 armor ~90% of the time if he wore full acolytes. What % of time do you think assasins are "while attacking". VERY SIMPLE and quick fix. Replace +15 vs blunt, piercing, slashing armor with +15 while enchanted, +15 while in stance. Remove the 20% less condition duration stuff if needed for balance issues.
Phades
Enchantments can be removed and not all enchantments are built equal. Keep this in mind before attempting to relate it to when someone is attacking. Casters are also not designed as physical damage dealers and their armor is more inline with their ability to cast spells. The only real question you could raise would be a parity between druids and gladiators versus shrouded, since the mesmer and monk equivilants only add bonus energy as well.
Originally Posted by phoenixtech
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So if you are saying that armor is useful while using distortion to protect yourself more from physical assailants, that is just a smart move. To say that its as universal of protection similar to assassins gaining armor while perfoming combos before teleporting out again, well you missed the mark a little bit.
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Quote: Originally Posted by phoenixtech Rangers: Gets +10 while in stance. Very useful since rangers have many stances. Many stances and stances you would want to use are two different things. They have a few useful ones, but only a couple of them can be kept up regularly.
Quote: Originally Posted by phoenixtech Necros: Gets +5,5,5 for each minion controled, very nice for MM builds. Also has tormentors for 70 armor overall but take extra damage from holy.
Ritualists: Gets +5,5,5 for each spirit controlled, +10 items being held, +10 under weapons. ALL very popular builds. Total armor rating = 70 or 75. Minions and spirits die and they both take a fair amount of time to setup. Ritual lord is really your only argument for logevity and unconditional use here.
Quote: Originally Posted by phoenixtech
Now, What % of time is the assasin "attacking" compared to the other classes being under "enchantment", "in stance", controlling 3 spirits. I know as a spirit spammer my rit would have 75 armor say 80% of the time. I know a boon prot would have 70 armor ~90% of the time if he wore full acolytes. What % of time do you think assasins are "while attacking".
Nearly 100% of the time that the assassin puts himself within harms reach in order to be attacking. The primary time when this wouldnt be the case, would be when a assassin is force to retreat from a battle entirely and is persued by individuals with a run speed boost.
Although the likelyhood of a new weapon set is small, as i remeber talk of a beast mastery stat item, but i havent heard anything about it recently. The rest of it has the makings to solve your pve solution for survival due to being force to compete with warriors in the tanking department.
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Originally Posted by lord_shar
I can see that your primary concern is keeping the assassin balanced for PvP. That's perfectly fine, but not at the expense of PvE playability. I'm fairly certain that PvE/PvP balance can be achieved... as it stands now, the assassin is not viable for end game PvE content. If you disagree, please post a picture of your assassin next to a slain Kanaxai or Urgoz using a PUG group Quote:
Would you agree that deadly arts could use a buff then? The setup has the makings for an extention of the combo idea. All that is missing is some fine tuning on the hexes, give some options that combo from range, and have throwing knives linked to the attribute and call it done.|
Originally Posted by phoenixtech
VERY SIMPLE and quick fix. Replace +15 vs blunt, piercing, slashing armor with +15 while enchanted, +15 while in stance. Remove the 20% less condition duration stuff if needed for balance issues.
Your solution doesnt change much, as AoD is the primary method to deliver the assassin into close combat situations to perform combos, which in turn give the assassin the bonus armor. The stance one is rather pointless, as the stances within the assassin lines are derived from a hex, or mobility based and either end when the assassin attacks or only lasts 3s for every 15 spent in refresh time.
Deadly Arts delivers so little damage that it's laughable. Assassins are intended to be quick strike characters, so resorting to deadly arts to address their armor deficiency pretty much eliminates their primary function.
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Adding additional AL on top of the existing AL bonus would make the assassin armor superior to warrior armor, minus the shield of course. There also has to be a point where shadow refuge stops and troll ungent begins, due to the differences in activation time. Furthermore, no amount of +pips of regeneration is going to help against focused fire situations that would cause you to drop in hp that fast through defensive stances like critical defense.
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Although the likelyhood of a new weapon set is small, as i remeber talk of a beast mastery stat item, but i havent heard anything about it recently. The rest of it has the makings to solve your pve solution for survival due to being force to compete with warriors in the tanking department.
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Yep and im suggesting giving the class an option to play differently, so that it isnt a risk in pve. If you enjoy the melee lifestyle, then you have to accept the risk involved. Otherwise, you are in a way agreeing with my idea for a change in a different direction.
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Originally Posted by phoenixtech
Mantra of recovery is pretty popular these days, I see no reason why I wouldn't choose the while in stance chest+ leggings when I'm playing that build.
Because you wouldnt neccarially want to spec 14-15 in fast casting to bring that "bonus" AL up to the all the time level that you are arguing for assassins. For which assassins already have for the most part.Quote:
There's also Mantra of inscription on an E-surge, SoW, Sig Of humility setup. The Point I was trying to make is that even a squishy MESMER have the ability to choose an armor set that gives them 70 armor rating.
You can choose to spend one slot to augment 2 on the bar or go with recovery to augment 4-6 instead. It is giving up the obvious defensive ability that lie within illusion though, which any augmentation would be sacrificed for. That is unless you want to be hit every time by warriors, rangers, and assassins durring spikes.
The thing with the mesmer stances has alot to do with constant upkeep. Some of the nicer inspiration ones are long lasting, but do have decent costs ~25% of the total energy available. This isnt a problem when using reflex actions like shutdown methods, but it does begin to pose issues over time with pressure style chain casting. It is not the same as comparing it to divine boon, for instance, where it is cheap and easily reapplied.
Casters always had that ability to have 70AL, through defensive staff mods though. The tiered progression between the different profesisons from caster to warrior make sense, with typically 10AL seperating each under all circumstances. The only real variable occurs with elemental and physical damage with rangers and warriors specifically. You have not presented an argument against the intent of the assassin (to attack) against their bonus to AL keeping this established parity.
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Originally Posted by Phades
The thing with the mesmer stances has alot to do with constant upkeep. Some of the nicer inspiration ones are long lasting, but do have decent costs ~25% of the total energy available. This isnt a problem when using reflex actions like shutdown methods, but it does begin to pose issues over time with pressure style chain casting. It is not the same as comparing it to divine boon, for instance, where it is cheap and easily reapplied.
Casters always had that ability to have 70AL, through defensive staff mods though. The tiered progression between the different profesisons from caster to warrior make sense, with typically 10AL seperating each under all circumstances. The only real variable occurs with elemental and physical damage with rangers and warriors specifically. You have not presented an argument against the intent of the assassin (to attack) against their bonus to AL keeping this established parity.
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Relevance please?|
Originally Posted by phoenixtech
You automatically FALSELY assumed I was talking about distortion, no where did i mention that. Then you proceed to tell me that I missed the mark. Not sure if you are trying to look cool or trying to impress people or whatever but that's not very nice.
Just gave you an example of an "optimised" situation. A time where the extra AL is needed the entire time and is supplemented by a survival skill.
Would you agree that deadly arts could use a buff then? The setup has the makings for an extention of the combo idea. All that is missing is some fine tuning on the hexes, give some options that combo from range, and have throwing knives linked to the attribute and call it done.Quote:
This is not true. 70AL + 5AL = 75AL, which is below gladiator's 80AL,+20vs.physical. Even a +15AL conditional would still place it below gladiators. Bonus armor quantity can be varied... it need not remain along multiples of 15. There's also no reason why shadow refuge can't be modified, regardless of troll ungent's properties. They are independent skills from two separate classes -- there is no direct relevance between them.
Quote: Although the likelyhood of a new weapon set is small, as i remeber talk of a beast mastery stat item, but i havent heard anything about it recently. The rest of it has the makings to solve your pve solution for survival due to being force to compete with warriors in the tanking department. |
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Yep and im suggesting giving the class an option to play differently, so that it isnt a risk in pve. If you enjoy the melee lifestyle, then you have to accept the risk involved. Otherwise, you are in a way agreeing with my idea for a change in a different direction.
*sigh* once again, this has already been answered previously, several times:
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Originally Posted by lord_shar
*sigh* once again, this has already been answered previously, several times:Quote:
Not placing the assassin into direct competition with warriors. You know, using them in different ways instead of asking for a buff to put them equal to warrior armor levels.|
Originally Posted by lord_shar
Yes, assassin's can also perform ranged combat as you've described to minimize death toll, but why would any party ever take an assassin for ranged combat when the ranger outputs much higher damage per second over longer ranges, with superior interrupts, better armor, and a more well-rounded skill set?
You can choose to spend one slot to augment 2 on the bar or go with recovery to augment 4-6 instead. It is giving up the obvious defensive ability that lie within illusion though, which any augmentation would be sacrificed for. That is unless you want to be hit every time by warriors, rangers, and assassins durring spikes.
The MoI with SoW + Sig of Humility is a fairly standard pre-nerf E-surge setup. Not sure if it's still the same today but most of the E-surge builds have around 10 points in inspiration. Bringing distortion on the e-surge when you have wards, monks, etc to protect you would be pretty inefficient.Quote:
You don't need 100% uptime for MoR, that would be stupid. Even a 70% uptime would yield a very nice return for using the while in stance armor, but we're not really discussing mesmers here, the discussion, and the point of the thread was to improve assasins in general. Now, you wanted to "give the class" and option to play differently. Right now it seems to me that your only archtype (and that of the current GvG metagame) of the assasin is based on AoD. I don't see how restricting the assasin to +15 vs blunt damage with 20% less bleed duration would "give the class more options to play. Having a +15 while in stance would greatly improve builds like oh say A/W with rush + recall. 4 points into beast mastery will also get you a 7 second Tiger's fury. If a RANGER (who is supposed to be a RANGED character) can be a thumper have while in stance armor and use TF and benefit from the extra armor rating, why can't a A/R have it? Please enlighten me as how having +15 vs blunt and 20% less blind duration would give the assasin more options vs have a +15 while in stance.
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*SIGH* Its 70+15AL and we have went over this several times already. I also covered that there is no direct parity in bonuses in relationship towards class specialties. Warriors having the obvious advantage in physical damage, while rangers having obvious elemental advantages. Are you suggesting for some kind of chaos, shadow, or holy mitigation? If not, then your entire argument doesnt make sense.
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Quote: Originally Posted by lord_shar I apologize for saying this, but I'm really starting to question that you have an end-game pve assassin. Otherwise, I wouldn't have to keep repeating the above. This is why I suggested posting a picture of your assassin next to a slain Kanaxai or Urgoz with a PUG group to prove my statements wrong. I see no such picture yet. I am starting to question if you pvp at all. Your suggestions are unbalancing in that aspect. I continue to present alternatives that would not affect that aspect and improve in the pve aspect.
I could also copy and paste your "relevance" snipet. Just because you have not done it, doesn't mean it hasnt been done.
If you go down the path making them similar to warriors in durability, then the question arises of why bring a warrior?
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Watch-Yourself is ineffective until the assassin/warrior has adrenelin, but by the time it can be activated, the assassin is near dead. The +5 defense pommel buys a few extra seconds but doesn't seem adequate against L28+ endgame encounters. Your suggestions were tested and found largely ineffective in Raisu Palace, Hell's Precipice, etc... They may work for L20 PvP encounters, but cannot compensate for high assassin death rates in L28+ zones. I hope that clears things up. |
Originally Posted by phoenixtech
Having a +15 while in stance would greatly improve builds like oh say A/W with rush + recall. 4 points into beast mastery will also get you a 7 second Tiger's fury. If a RANGER (who is supposed to be a RANGED character) can be a thumper have while in stance armor and use TF and benefit from the extra armor rating, why can't a A/R have it? Please enlighten me as how having +15 vs blunt and 20% less blind duration would give the assasin more options vs have a +15 while in stance.
Its quite simple actually. What are you doing when you have tiger's fury active? You are (ideally) attacking. That is essentially the same as the AL bonus while attacking, but doesnt force the character to use a slot for enchantments or a stance. While the current options favor AOD, the enchantment option would be identical to the bonus when attacking. Those other armors, allow the assassin to wait out some effects after teleporting away between combos opposed to being required to ask for condition removal. Being able to switch to the poison reduction and cripple reduction can be useful. Given the nature of blind application and weakness, those 2 armor types would be the overal "less useful" of the bunch. It is unfortunate, but probably neccacary, that the cripple reduction is also a chest piece.
Yet you fail to aknowledge the immediate 40% reduction of damage with the different armor setup, instead of insisting that the bonus to energy armor (or something similar), recieve a unwarrented bonus. You also continue to evade its direct effect upon your overal health issue brought up earlier and how it improves your downtime of recovery over the downtime of skill recharge.
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Quote: Originally Posted by Phades I am starting to question if you pvp at all. Your suggestions are unbalancing in that aspect. I continue to present alternatives that would not affect that aspect and improve in the pve aspect. I don't currently PvP regularly and have never claimed otherwise. I play GW for PvE content, and Quake4, UT2004, and other first-person shooters for PvP. However, what I'm discussing is specific to high level PvE end game encounters. The PvE assassin does need fixing. I can see these issues do not concern you other than what effects it might have in PvP. You don't have to fear change -- ANET rebalances the skills whenever new issues are discovered. Change is perfectly fine and needed to keep assassins usable in high level PvE. I would also be happy with leaving armor alone if Shadow Refuge were restored to its previous state.
Here are my suggestions to ANET:
1) Make assassin base armor 75AL instead of 70AL, giving them 12.5% more damage mitigation -- still below warrior, but more melee-worthy than rangers
2) Improve Shadow Refuge's healing amount, duration, and/or making the +health at expiration non-conditional -- anything to improve its healing numbers
Why are the above such a threat to PvP? I believe you are starting to confuse other people's suggestions with mine (the 75+15AL confusion suggested the latter).
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Which you said yourself does not help the situation. with the following. |
Originally Posted by Phades
I could also copy and paste your "relevance" snipet. Just because you have not done it, doesn't mean it hasnt been done.
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I'm asking for a +5AL bonus so that 75AL is the norm as opposed to the current L70. I have no idea which 70+15AL you are referring to other than Nightstalkers, which only applies while attacking.
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Requiring monk assistance 24/7 is a build weakness, not a strength.
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Quote: Originally Posted by lord_shar Watch-Yourself is ineffective until the assassin/warrior has adrenelin, but by the time it can be activated, the assassin is near dead. The +5 defense pommel buys a few extra seconds but doesn't seem adequate against L28+ endgame encounters. Your suggestions were tested and found largely ineffective in Raisu Palace, Hell's Precipice, etc... They may work for L20 PvP encounters, but cannot compensate for high assassin death rates in L28+ zones. I hope that clears things up. Then the only real solution lies in style of application, because no amount of increase will alter this situation you are claiming. I was going to suggest a different approach to the skill setup to use a tactic found in mmo games for "less than optimal" melee professions, but its really superfluous considering most any other profession that can cause "shutdown" could operate in that manner.
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Two counterpoints:|
Originally Posted by lord_shar
You don't have to fear change -- ANET rebalances the skills whenever new issues are discovered. Change is perfectly fine and needed to keep assassins usable in high level PvE. I would also be happy with leaving armor alone if Shadow Refuge were restored to its previous state.
Change that is bad or cause many others to suffer through months of imbalance cant be justified for any aspect of the game. Other "change" that i dislike fall under the rather irrellevant "improvements", such as the one performed to glyph of sacrifice.
Then the only real solution lies in style of application, because no amount of increase will alter this situation you are claiming. I was going to suggest a different approach to the skill setup to use a tactic found in mmo games for "less than optimal" melee professions, but its really superfluous considering most any other profession that can cause "shutdown" could operate in that manner.
Making shadow refuge into one of its former incarnations, merely causes warriors to change secondaries and become even more difficult to kill. Then you would have to rebalance areas with more enchantment removal to compensate and you end up with the same situation prior to the alteration. Quote:
The above is largely incorrect. Warriors can tank L28 mobs when backed by proper healing. Assassins die in mere seconds when they enter melee with the L28+ end game mobs, even when supported by multiple healers. All I want to see is a few more seconds added to assassin survival to allow them to deliver their damage combo's and have time to retreat or teleport out. How this is done, whether improved armor or shadow refuge, doesn't matter. A direct consequence of current PvE assassin mortality is fewer grouping opportunities in end-game PvE. Until you have an assassin that has experienced this first-hand, you really won't understand the issue.
GW is both PvP and PvE, with PvP players being the minority. ANET generally does a good job at balancing the two playing segments, but this is not the present case with the new assassin class. ANET cannot sacrifice PvE assassin class balancing just for the benefit of the PvP minority. A compromise is required. Quote: |
1) An increase in armor levels, even if less than 80AL (warrior gladiator default) will improve assassin melee and elemental damage mitigation, thereby improving odds of survival and healing requirements.
2) An improvement of Shadow Refuge will allow assassins to self heal more efficiently, thereby reducing pressure (and rage-quitting probabilities) of PUG healer monks
There are usually multiple solutions to any given problem. You just have to be willing to explore all available options (including changes to production code).
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Change that is bad or cause many others to suffer through months of imbalance cant be justified for any aspect of the game. Other "change" that i dislike fall under the rather irrellevant "improvements", such as the one performed to glyph of sacrifice.
The above is a good example of FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt). ANET has already proven itself very quick at correcting new exploits -- look at how fast they removed 40% enchant SoA axes and ranger spirit spam. They are more than capable of putting emergency changes on the fast-track if necessary.
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Originally Posted by Phades
Making shadow refuge into one of its former incarnations, merely causes warriors to change secondaries and become even more difficult to kill. Then you would have to rebalance areas with more enchantment removal to compensate and you end up with the same situation prior to the alteration. Making the heal unconditional is the most likely to happen. ANET can also change the linked attribute of shadow refuge from shadow magic to critical strikes (parhaps renaming it "critical refuge"), thereby removing that potential abuse. Quick and simple -- no FUD required. Quote:
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