Improvements on the Assasin

phoenixtech

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2006

07 Jun 2006 at 03:22 - 121

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

If you think you are going to be activly persuing anything and refuse to teleport back under that situation, you are playing the profession wrong.

So, according to YOU, the assasin should ALWAYS equip AoD, and that is the ONLY way to play the "profession correctly". So much for giving assasins more options and different play styles that you said you supported.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Requiring monk assistance 24/7 is a build weakness, not a strength.
Which you said yourself does not help the situation. with the following. Care to explain to me how you extrapolate my statement of "Relying on your teammates IS part of the game" into requiring monk assistance 24/7. Better yet, care to explain to me how your statement has ANYTHING to do with the topic of discussion, which, ONCE AGAIN, is how having armor mods such as +15 while enchanted, while in stance is inferior to +15 vs blunt and 20% less blind duration.

Phades

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

07 Jun 2006 at 09:12 - 122

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

The confusion is occuring at the quantity of base armor being proposed. I'm asking for a little more armor base (75AL as opposed to the present 70AL). Warrior base armor starts in the 80AL range (universal), then goes up dramatically due to shields and primary weapon bonuses. Assassins don't have the benefit of using an offhand since daggers only allow one armor suffix (as of this patch, no dagger armor prefixes exist). Given the quantity disparity, increasing assassin base armor by +5 won't even approach the armor levels warriors can achieve. Therefore, there will be no dramatic impact to PvP with the above proposed change -- we're talking about +12.5% damage mitigation, which should not be dramatic. However, a +5 defense dagger grip can stack on top of this, increasing damage mitigation +25% without the the activation delays associated with "Watch Yourself" as the only option (which proves lethal in L28+ areas). There will be a tradeoff of losing +30 health, +20% enchant, etc... but regardless, assassin armor becomes more high level PvE-viable without any significant threat to PvP. No, 80AL still doesn't approach the standard 96AL + damage absorbtion of warriors, so this proposed change won't infringe upon warrior tanking roles.

So, you are suggesting removing the +15al while attacking armor then? Otherwise you are creating a 95 AL assassin versus the 101 AL warrior against all sources. Assassins cant choose to have a shield though, but if they did have the option they would exceede warriors in AL against all sources.

Quote: Originally Posted by lord_shar The above is largely incorrect. Warriors can tank L28 mobs when backed by proper healing. Assassins die in mere seconds when they enter melee with the L28+ end game mobs, even when supported by multiple healers. Healing and protting 1 target is easier than healing multiple targets. This is what you are observing.

Quote: Originally Posted by lord_shar GW is both PvP and PvE, with PvP players being the minority. ANET generally does a good job at balancing the two playing segments, but this is not the present case with the new assassin class. ANET cannot sacrifice PvE assassin class balancing just for the benefit of the PvP minority. A compromise is required. By volume, the lv28 content is the minority here.

Quote: Originally Posted by lord_shar 1) An increase in armor levels, even if less than 80AL (warrior gladiator default) will improve assassin melee and elemental damage mitigation, thereby improving odds of survival and healing requirements. So, creating a AL 95 assassin against all sources is the solution? This infringes on the basic bonus that rangers have to only elemental damage and approaches warrior univeral AL.

Quote: Originally Posted by lord_shar 2) An improvement of Shadow Refuge will allow assassins to self heal more efficiently, thereby reducing pressure (and rage-quitting probabilities) of PUG healer monks People prone to rage quitting will find other reasons for it. Typically ive found them to be sub-par players anyway.

Quote: Originally Posted by lord_shar The above is a good example of FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt). ANET has already proven itself very quick at correcting new exploits -- look at how fast they removed 40% enchant SoA axes and ranger spirit spam. They are more than capable of putting emergency changes on the fast-track if necessary. Ranger spirit spam was not what id call a fast fix. It was faster than the adjustment to other things like ether renewal though.

Quote: Originally Posted by lord_shar ANET can also change the linked attribute of shadow refuge from shadow magic to critical strikes (parhaps renaming it "critical refuge"), thereby removing that potential abuse. Quick and simple -- no FUD required. Personally i wouldnt want to see total dependancy on one attribute line, but having good attribute lines is also an issue. Assassins are essentially at that point of total dependancy though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

The above depends on the PvE mission. I see mesmers most welcomed in Boreas Seabed, where interrupting the kraken's jade spell is high priority. Id add thirsty river to that as well, but 2 missions out of all of pve is hardly a catch all situation. Interupt rangers ive seen taken before dom mesmers at boreas though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

On a side note, I do have to point out that if your primary concern is PvP only with no genuine concern for PvE, then I see an inherent conflict of interest in your posts. This thread is intended to improve assassin playability for both PvP and PvE, not keep things status-quo. If you insist on using existing skills to address PvE assassin mortality, then you must have an end-game PvE assassin to confirm these suggestions. Actually you are microscoping one issue within the profession, without looking at all the issues the class faces at the same time and attempting to bandaid the problem instead of going after the underlying cause. Look at the other professions within the game. The majority of them can be tooled to play in different functions. The only one that comes as close to the assassin in a singular purpose, while still being effective, is the warrior. However, the warrior can also absorb damage well, leaving some utility for the pve venue. The assassin on the other hand only has useful skills to play really in one style. Combine this with only having an option to perform those skills in melee and you create your "pve" problem.

Taking a step back and adding some skills, while changing others, adds depth to the profession and eliminates the need to force the assassin into the singular minded pvp style build being forced into pve situations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

Care to explain to me how you extrapolate my statement of "Relying on your teammates IS part of the game" into requiring monk assistance 24/7. Just matching your sweeping generalization with one of my own, since you dismissed the skill entirely instead of addressing its use and effect versus the current meta game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

Better yet, care to explain to me how your statement has ANYTHING to do with the topic of discussion, which, ONCE AGAIN, is how having armor mods such as +15 while enchanted, while in stance is inferior to +15 vs blunt and 20% less blind duration. While enchanted is similar to copying an existing armor type. Use the existing armor type. Better yet, go on a campaign to have all knights armor removed except boots, ascalon armor, all platemail etc instead of creating a rant here.

lord_shar

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2005

near SF, CA

07 Jun 2006 at 10:30 - 123

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

As mentioned above, warriors get shield benefits (+16 AL, and -4 or more sustained damage reduction). Assassins can't use a shield without sacrificing all available dagger skills. Total armor level and damage absorbtion must both be accounted for to get a complete picture of damage mitigation... not just the AL number on the worn costume. Current Nightstalker armor hits 70AL(base) + 15AL(while attacking) = 85AL(while attacking). Giving assassins 75 base armor yields 90 effective armor while attacking. +5 defense weapon grips do exist for both assassins and warrior, but that +5AL adjustment can't be automatically counted without misrepresenting true armor levels. Warrior gladiator armor achieves 80AL + 16AL(shield) + damage absorbtion(-9 max) = 96AL and -9 damage per attack (universal). This places effective warrior armor reaches well beyond 100+AL standard, not even factoring conditional armor bonuses. It's pretty obvious that assassin's won't be able to tank like warriors with the +5AL boost, but it will still provide more badly needed damage mitigation. Besides, ANET can easily test all of the above in Q/A and discard any imbalancing proposals.

EDIT: Another reasonable compromise would be to shift 5AL from conditional to non-conditional mode. In other words, what about increasing base armor from 70AL to 75AL, and lowering all conditional armor bonuses from +15AL to +10? This will address assassin survivability without affecting total armor level attainable. Such a change would have to be applied to all conditional bonuses (nightstalkers would become 75AL, +10AL while attacking, etc...), but it would resolve your concerns about assassin max armor exceeding warrior max armor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Healing and protting 1 target is easier than healing multiple targets. This is what you are observing.

I hate to say this, but the above sounds like a wild assumption. There is a reason why warrior tanks can solo ice imps for icy dragon swords in Mineral Springs, Run Droknar's Forge, solo FoW spiders, etc... their damage mitigation is unmatched any other class short of the 55-monk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

By volume, the lv28 content is the minority here.

Not completely accurate either, because all PvE players who want to finish the game eventually have to deal with Raisu Palace and Hell's Precipice. Also, many will eventually have access to the Kurzick and Luxon elite missions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

So, creating a AL 95 assassin against all sources is the solution? This infringes on the basic bonus that rangers have to only elemental damage and approaches warrior univeral AL.

How so? GW's skill sets are not trade-marked to any one class. ANET does its best to set certain guide lines, but playability still has to be maintained, and that is currently lacking in high end assassin PvE.

That 75AL to 90AL improvement won't apply until the assassin actually starts attacking. It is not the stable and consistent armor level you portray it to be, even with teleportation present. Warriors get a solid 96AL+ and damage absorbtion, so their tanking roles are quite secure. The assassin's total armor doesn't even come close.

EDIT: As mentioned in my last edit above, 75 base AL, +10AL while attacking will probably be the best compromise, increasing assassin base armor for more damage mitigation, without changing the maximum armor levels possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

People prone to rage quitting will find other reasons for it. Typically ive found them to be sub-par players anyway. This is probably true, but that doesn't address why the bulk of end-game PvE assassins can't find groups, especially in elite mission zones.

Quote: No arguments here. Shadow Refuge used to be acceptable, but it got nerfed into oblivion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Ranger spirit spam was not what id call a fast fix. It was faster than the adjustment to other things like ether renewal though.

Personally i wouldnt want to see total dependancy on one attribute line, but having good attribute lines is also an issue. Assassins are essentially at that point of total dependancy though. ANET still recognized and corrected the issue. If they follow the ITIL change control policies of modern corporations, then they will have mechanisms present to drop changes into production very quickly. Regardless, they have demonstrated that they are not afraid of applying drastic changes to correct issues. Based on their track record, I do expect some changes down the road addressing assassin PvE mortaility rates (hopefully sooner than later).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Actually you are microscoping one issue within the profession, without looking at all the issues the class faces at the same time and attempting to bandaid the problem instead of going after the underlying cause. Look at the other professions within the game. The majority of them can be tooled to play in different functions. The only one that comes as close to the assassin in a singular purpose, while still being effective, is the warrior. However, the warrior can also absorb damage well, leaving some utility for the pve venue. The assassin on the other hand only has useful skills to play really in one style. Combine this with only having an option to perform those skills in melee and you create your "pve" problem. It sounds like you're asking for the scope of impact GW will undergo when a +5AL base class armor bonus and mildly improved self-healing is introduced. The answer: 12.5% more damage mitigation and improved assassin healing rate. Yes, there will be impact downstream, and it is FULLY intentional. Any unforseen complications can be addressed while in Q/A. If the change creates too many negative issues which outweigh its benefits, then the changes can always be backed out, but you'll never know until you implement the change at least once, preferable in a Q/A test environment. If the results are promising in Q/A, then the new patch will be rolled out into production. It's that simple.

So no, I'm not tunnel-visioning or "microscoping". I am offering suggestions to resolve a known issue that the current GW production code cannot resolve. Problems are solved with direct solutions and quality testing, not round-about problem micro-management, global audits, and over-lengthly environmental impact reports.

You can't over-examine the rules of a video game and how it will "annoy" non-subscription customers... that's too much unnecessary guess-work. There is no need to let FUD stand in the way of progress, especially with Q/A testing environments being present. Instead of attempting to guess at how a change will impact GW, just code it, implement it in Q/A, then record the results. If the results meet expected criteria, then it can be pushed out to production.

Regardless, my original statement still stands: unless you can genuinely validate your advice about how to correct issues in end-game PvE, there's no way you can give "sound" advice about end-game PvE due to lack of first hand knowlege. The sole concern for PvP at the expense of PvE is also quite telling. There's absolutely no reason why they can't be balanced together so that all GW-users meet at a happy medium.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Taking a step back and adding some skills, while changing others, adds depth to the profession and eliminates the need to force the assassin into the singular minded pvp style build being forced into pve situations. The above requires more change implementation

Chikara

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2006

07 Jun 2006 at 10:43 - 124

lord_shar

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2005

near SF, CA

07 Jun 2006 at 17:28 - 125

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chikara

There are absolutely no RP reason to add more armor to sins...
We are playing a multiplayer game
please keep in mind the few roleplay stuff there are in GW!
You can't give 80armor or more for assassins just because they die easily, that doesn't make sense... you're just dealing with numbers and you totally dont care about roleplay...
Sins have to wear light armor that's all.
If they need improvement twould be on the skills like shadow step, shadow healing, skill to evade more efficient etc...
but stop arguing on +15AL, this wont happen, Anet wont balanced the game against roleplay
Sad that youre just dealing and talking about numbers... you want assassin to be tough and to kill fast and to get more self healing, you want to be a god? ...come on! try to play a different way, you wont kill as fast as imbalanced GPS HOX SPIDER FANGS but you can be useful perhaps...? do you think all the builds etc that we're playing with other class today came in 1month? Roleplay is just a game genre. There is no class balancing involved with roleplay -- just acting out one's part. Playability and game balance are far more important to keep players coming back for more.

If you want to make a positive contribution to this thread, please use hard facts, not story telling elements, to state why something should or should not be done. ANET does test changes before they go live, contrary to FUD beliefs.

phoenixtech

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2006

07 Jun 2006 at 21:13 - 126

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

First, I have NEVER seen ANET ADD any skills outside of a new chapter. Changing armor properties has been done before (see the HOD Helm 50%-> 20% hex reduction), and would cost them ALOT less $$$ and QA time to implement. While I would LOVE to have the old shadow refuge back, I'm not so sure ANET is willing to make such a change. Now as for your statement of "using the available tools properly". That goes to support the arguments made here, that having a wider selection of more practical armor choices WOULD be beneficial and make assasins less restricted in playing style/build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Just matching your sweeping generalization with one of my own, since you dismissed the skill entirely instead of addressing its use and effect versus the current meta game.

While enchanted is similar to copying an existing armor type. Use the existing armor type. Better yet, go on a campaign to have all knights armor removed except boots, ascalon armor, all platemail etc instead of creating a rant here. You really shouldn't be accusing anyone of sweeping generalizations, seeing how every reply from you is a sweeping generalization, hell, read your first reply to my initial post. If you can't take your own medicine then don't dish it out. You also shouldn't be complaining about people dismissing your points, since you're so thickheaded and bent on arguing, you've dismissed all of the exampled I pointed out showing you that +15 while enchanted/stance would be DIFFERENT than +15 while attacking without providing any real counter argument. Then once again, you toss in an extra sweeping generalization about some campaign to remove knights armor and other BS. Seems to me you are more interested in ranting and arguing than improving assasins.

Chikara

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2006

08 Jun 2006 at 00:43 - 127

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

Roleplay is just a game genre. There is no class balancing involved with roleplay -- just acting out one's part. Playability and game balance are far more important to keep players coming back for more.

If you want to make a positive contribution to this thread, please use hard facts, not story telling elements, to state why something should or should not be done. ANET does test changes before they go live, contrary to FUD beliefs. Sad but true, GW is a RPG. We're not playing counter strike as far as i know...
That's why sins wont get +X AL... they wear light armor and they will , for ever...

I would prefer more critical chances or double strike chances, since there is lack of those strikes in late game pve, also in pvp ( making assassins what they need to be , killer ) ... perhaps making shadow step skills better too, like we could use them, not only AoD...
Cause this wont be against roleplay ( roleplay is what makes the game to be sensible ) or against other classes ( rangers will claim for more AL too... )

lord_shar

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2005

near SF, CA

08 Jun 2006 at 00:58 - 128

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chikara

Sad but true, GW is a RPG. We're not playing counter strike as far as i know...
That's why sins wont get +X AL... they wear light armor and they will , for ever...

ANET has changed armors in the past, so yes, they have a history of adjusting armors as they see fit. "Cuz Chikara, Stone Cold, or <insert_celebrity_name_here> said so" isn't a very convincing reason to believe otherwise. GW game code is not written in stone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chikara

I would prefer more critical chances or double strike chances, since there is lack of those strikes in late game pve, also in pvp ( making assassins what they need to be , killer ) ... perhaps making shadow step skills better too, like we could use them, not only AoD...
Cause this wont be against roleplay ( roleplay is what makes the game to be sensible ) or against other classes ( rangers will claim for more AL too... ) I'm in favor of change... the assassin in the current patch has too many deficiencies and shortcomings now, making them very difficult to group with in all late game aspects.

norristhenice

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: May 2006

fhn

08 Jun 2006 at 11:30 - 129

I do not agree that assasin armour needs to be improved---an assassin implicitly needs to be agile. I agree that the assassin agains lvl 20+ npc's is a joke something must be done to improve the effectiveness of critical strikes. The main point that i would like to add is that shadow stepping is not very useful when the enemy your are running from still have you as there target. As you can only retreat as far as the agrro circle, you r still in range of a sprint warrior or worse a caster with some nasty spells. Why not force enemys to 'lose' you as there target thus forcing them to find you and click on you again. Another annoyance is that the assassin has worse self heal than any other class which prohibits an assassin that wants to stay alive from doing what the class was designed for---taking out a single opponant---because attributes must be invested elswhere other than dagger or critical. with dagger and critical low then u dont have much chance of killing anything. In my opinion it is bad design. It is bad balancing when the only comparable armour class--- the ranger---- attacks both at range AND has the best evade and block skills in the game---whirl, dodge and lightening reflex----which are not available to assassin primary because of the expertise requirement. moveover, the ranger survival skills i mentioned seem more akin to the assassin since he is the 1v1 specialist. critical defences sucks because it expires so soon unless you land a critical hit and a 4 second shadow refuge is a joke and yes i feel embarressed having to spam it 3 or 4 times to heal myself after a fight. so much for the swift and deadly assassin. the skill set is way way to slim and many skills which would make up for all or most of the above have been ruined by anet's over zealous nerfers eg. temple stike which has been mentioned several times. i am sick of being mocked by warrior monks with healing hands at aspenwood. at least the majority of assassins i know are using there imagination.......

A User Name

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2005

None atm

08 Jun 2006 at 16:26 - 130

I dont know if increasing armor is the way to go with assasins. Since they were made to have low armor. On the other hand they have very little healing power, are extremely easy to kill, and most affected by DP. After 1 or 2 deaths you are almost completely useless since you can no longer afford the energy to use your skill chain (for ex. GPS, HoX, FS, TF since it was the most popular chain and in my book most effective chain untill i spot a better chain).
Also they simply do not have the ability to really pose a threat now days. They do not really have the ability to kill the single target that the name suggests. Anet the first step to making the assasin balanced again is the un-nerfing of GPS and AoD. Then maybe buff their healing a bit and you could have a more balanced profession. (PvP wise). PvE wise i have no idea how you would balance it other than make crit strikes have the same base crit hit rate no matter what the level of the monster.
Sry if the post seems like complaining, cause in part, it is. Since you simply do not see assasins really being part of the game in HA, and i havent been watching GvG for a bit so possibly there, too. Something must be done to balance this profession, altough i doubt Anet will do anything about it.

lord_shar

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2005

near SF, CA

08 Jun 2006 at 16:32 - 131

Quote:

Originally Posted by norristhenice

These are 2 separate issues. Assassins are fine vs. the L24 range. However, they drop like flies once they start engaging L28+ monsters despite with tanks holding agro. Even if armor is not upgraded, an improvement to Shadow Refuge would go a long way (but might require re-linking the skill to critical strikes to preserve class balance).

Quote: Originally Posted by norristhenice The main point that i would like to add is that shadow stepping is not very useful when the enemy your are running from still have you as there target. As you can only retreat as far as the agrro circle, you r still in range of a sprint warrior or worse a caster with some nasty spells. Why not force enemys to 'lose' you as there target thus forcing them to find you and click on you again.

This has also been debated quite a bit in another GW assassin forum. Breaking targetting via shadow step isn't likely to be implemented, since it provides and equivalent defense to Spellbreaker and mesmer interrupts. I'd love to see it happen, but it has too much potential for abuse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by norristhenice

Another annoyance is that the assassin has worse self heal than any other class which prohibits an assassin that wants to stay alive from doing what the class was designed for---taking out a single opponant---because attributes must be invested elswhere other than dagger or critical.

Originally Posted by norristhenice

with dagger and critical low then u dont have much chance of killing anything. In my opinion it is bad design. It is bad balancing when the only comparable armour class--- the ranger---- attacks both at range AND has the best evade and block skills in the game---whirl, dodge and lightening reflex----which are not available to assassin primary because of the expertise requirement. moveover, the ranger survival skills i mentioned seem more akin to the assassin since he is the 1v1 specialist. critical defences sucks because it expires so soon unless you land a critical hit and a 4 second shadow refuge is a joke and yes i feel embarressed having to spam it 3 or 4 times to heal myself after a fight. I also agree. Critical Defenses was also nerfed into oblivion. 30 seconds recycle and 10 energy for a 6-second duration enchantment??? What the heck! It's pretty much useless without Warrior's wild blow to sustain it. Having CritDef duration scale upward with critical strikes attribute level, 5..15 seconds depending on present attribute score, would have been more than reasonable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by norristhenice

so much for the swift and deadly assassin. the skill set is way way to slim and many skills which would make up for all or most of the above have been ruined by anet's over zealous nerfers eg. temple stike which has been mentioned several times. i am sick of being mocked by warrior monks with healing hands at aspenwood. at least the majority of assassins i know are using there imagination....... Temple Strike also got mugged with the nerf bat

25 seconds recharge time for two 7-second conditions is insane. 20 seconds would have been more reasonable.

dilapodated

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2006

08 Jun 2006 at 20:07 - 132

If they really want to improve the assassin, all they need to do is merely give the assassin strikes extra damage when you hit your enemy from the back.

Example.

Critical Strikes(Primary Attribute) For every point in this attribute you do an extra 2 points damage when you strike your enemy from behind.

Wham, fixed.

Chikara

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2006

08 Jun 2006 at 21:24 - 133

I really like this idea...
or maybe it could be "critical strikes, primary attribute, each point in this attribute give you 1% chance to critical hit AND 3% to critical hit when you're backstabbing, etc..."
they could also change 7-17 max dagger damage to 10-20?

Lord Deathknight

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2006

10 Jun 2006 at 03:57 - 134

Personally I think that all an assassin needs is an inherent evade/block ability that could coincide with the critical strikes. Have Spells, skills, hexes and attacks that effect that directly target the assassin miss. This would give the assassin a better chance to survive an attack or bypass something that would normally be a defense i.e. throws dirt, blurred vision, blinding flash. The counter would be if the assassin does get hit then it would carry the same effect now, quickly dead.

I would have it as a % chance or it would work if it was a hit-miss ratio

Another thing would be the able to either carry your attack chain to another target or if that target dies have it refresh even it its at an energy loss

Even in most two part attack builds you’re vulnerable as you wait on skill recharge and normal none skilled attacks do little damage to most targets.

Gess422

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Jun 2006

Minneapolis, Minnesota

Guardians of the Cosmos (GotC)

13 Jun 2006 at 14:09 - 135

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spoony

I cant agree with you on that Yukito. Assasins arent just bombs you need to disarm, or either they will kill you. Assasins shouldnt be the classes killed in just a few hits.

In my opinion, assasins should have defenses similar to a warrior, but other than armor.

In my opinion, Assasin = some sort of Ninja. Like, ever saw a movie involving Ninjas? Theyre defenses are high, but are not placed in armor, it is put somewhere else. When its broken, assasins should have a skill that makes them go out of combat, and regain it. They do have them, return, recall, Aura of displacement does its work.

Imo, thats how the defenses should work in assasins How about letting Assassins use warrior runes of absorbtion on their armor. This would give them a little more staying power (not much but a little) and wouldn't break with the concept of wearing light, hinderance free armor. Letting them use ANY class specific rune on their armor would be an interesting idea and would give them a unique power for muliclassing as a spellcaster.

wilebill

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

Mt Vernon, Ohio

Band of the Hawk

W/Mo

13 Jun 2006 at 14:58 - 136

All very good suggestions, I agree with most of them. But I doubt that ANet will do anything at all.

Someone once said that PvE and PvP mix like oil and water. Balance for PvP and you have a weak PvE char, and vice versa. ANet balances for PvP. That is their priority and their policy since release. So I think the assassin will stay pretty much as it is.

Dawn Stormborn

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2006

13 Jun 2006 at 20:48 - 137

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lambentviper

In PvP i think the assassin is way to powerful. Not that i mind, as killing monks wthout them casting is quite fun...but today i made 4k faction in RA in 2 hours....and got about 5-6 complaints of my assassins damage capabilites.

Shroud of Silence, then follow through with a 2 dual-attack skill set and the monk it gone!! This is the problem! That same monk goes back to PvE with bad feelings and now refuses to go with a group that includes assassins.

Rikimaru

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2005

13 Jun 2006 at 21:45 - 138

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d2...yn/gw012-2.jpg
Sad stuff...

The assassins need to have their dagger attacks improved. Right now, the only decent combo is the Horns of the Ox > Falling Spider > Twisting Fangs one.
Everyone was using that with Golden Phoenix Strike before, and rather than improving their other dagger attacks they nerfed GPS. Apparently they don't believe such a thing could happen from ALL of the other attacks being bad, and forced themselves to believe it was because GPS was too good.

dearest brothel

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Jun 2006

Rt/N

13 Jun 2006 at 22:37 - 139

After reading through this entire thread (you wouldn't believe how long it took me) and looking at my own experiences with the Assasin, I have to say that I lot of the suggestions made are actually very good, albeit counterproductive if implemented collectively as it would overpower the class. That said, I think what really needs to be done is some prioritizing; deciding what is most important and limiting the seemingly endless list of suggestions to a few feasible ones. Personally, I think the issue is not the armor so much as it is the skills that the Assasin is given. As someone stated earlier, the skills don't actually mesh too well. On one hand you have a set that fits in with what many people would consider the traditional role of the class; namely, skills that allow for the in-and-out, combo/shadowstepping type thing. And then you have skills that don't really work with that philosophy, that actually impede on it. I'm not saying that there should only be one way to play an Assasin, but when every way to play feels like a half-assed attempt, I can't help but wish that at least one way of playing the class worked thoroughly. As a whole, ANET needs to be a little more intelligent with the decisions that they make regarding the skills presented to an Assasin, which is to expected considering that in theory, it's a class that is unique in GW. And I think that when it comes down to it, it's that very fact that is messing around with everything -- no other class plays like it, and as a result, the current state of PvE as a whole does not fit an Assasin. Almost every character can be made to effectively deal with the swarming mobs in PvE, whether it be by directly attacking them, casting AoE spells, healing the attackers, or disabling the targets. Then you have Assasins, a class that cannot currently hold its own in any such a situation. Either it's a survivablity issue, an energy issue, or a range issue; regardless, there are factors present when dealing with an Assasin that do not allow it to fill any of those roles any better than a different primary class. So yes, I think that ideally, PvE needs to be changed in some way so as to allow an Assasin to actually have a significant role. I've actually gone into PvE with an entire team of henchmen, sat back, and watched as they performed with the exact same amount of efficiency as they did when I actually took a role in the fighting, and that level of invisibility and insiginificance is something that I haven't experienced with an other class in PvE. Granted the henchmen AI isn't overwhelmingly bright, but I still think that the prescence of a human player should turn the tables somewhat, especially when playing a class that is supposed to be built around annihilating targets quickly and efficiently. There are also a few minor things that I think were important in their own ways, like the fact that the daggers swing at the same speed as a sword, which is just plain ridiculous and not only because it means less DPS for an Assasin but because it just doesn't make any sense. Also, the thing about Critical being indepedent of level -- I think that's a must considering how heavily we currently have to depend on the energy gotten from criticals. I could point out countless things which I think are good ideas, but it'd take a while and wouldn't serve much of a purpose. Just my two cents.

EDIT: You can't actually email them suggestions so scratch that.

Rikimaru

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2005

14 Jun 2006 at 04:18 - 140

From what I gather, if you e-mail ANet, they just tell you to post here...
Also, in that last post i made someone in the chat bar of the screenshot is saying "forming group invite self NO ASSASSINS". Photobucket keeps resizing the image...

dearest brothel

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Jun 2006

Rt/N

14 Jun 2006 at 05:15 - 141

Do they actually read the forums, though? Have they ever taken a suggestion from them?

Vengal

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2005

14 Jun 2006 at 07:11 - 142

Didnt read the rest of the thread, so sorry if I repeat some suggestions. Here is a list of my own:

-Daggers are supposed to be inherently faster then other Melee weaponry, so make the dagger attack skills quicker to come out.

-Seeping Wound needs to be seriously re-evaluated. I can kinda see why it would be an elite since its a Hex in the Critical Strikes attrib, but its still suckin hard. If I wanted more degen I could just use on of the many availabe hexes from a necro or mesmer.

-Black Lotus Strikes recharge needs to be sped up.

-Temple Strike needs to have a faster recharge as well. You could put it back to a 12 or 15 second recharge if you throw it in the Critical Strikes line.

-Give them a good, elite lead.

-Disrupting Stab needs to have its casting time decreased. Too slow for being an interrupt.

-Deadly Arts line needs to be looked at. Most of the things in there suffer from bad recharge times, bad energy cost or are far too conditional to be of any use (Enduring Toxin?).

-Unseen Fury seems a little useless.

-Siphon Strength is listed as an Elite Hex Spell, but I have to be at touch range for it to activate.

Phades

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

14 Jun 2006 at 10:55 - 143

Waited awhile before comming back to read, to see if anything different was being presented. I was getting tired of trying to rehash why creating armor to match the scaling up post level 20 is a bad thing due to how GW does not scale up past 20 as is.
Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

...
EDIT: Another reasonable compromise would be to shift 5AL from conditional to non-conditional mode. In other words, what about increasing base armor from 70AL to 75AL, and lowering all conditional armor bonuses from +15AL to +10? This will address assassin survivability without affecting total armor level attainable. Such a change would have to be applied to all conditional bonuses (nightstalkers would become 75AL, +10AL while attacking, etc...), but it would resolve your concerns about assassin max armor exceeding warrior max armor.

This is a reasonable change to the armor, but the baseline armors would most likely become prefered (+health/energy) in the pvp venues, while it wouldnt help your pve problem at all. When mobs in Urgoz use simple things like wildstrike and hit for the 250~300 range against low end armor 60~70, it really wont make any difference what so ever. Especially when half of them have a nice habit of target switching after the pull to anything soft, or just simply bypassing the warrior out in front altogther.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

Malestorm, mindfreeze, and ice spear are terrible damage dealers. Actually, ice magic just sucks in general if you are trying to kill anything really opposed to holding someone in place for a teammate to kill. When you combine that with decent AL and any damage reduction, its not too hard to figure out why warriors can do that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

The end missions, a few select quests, and a small selection of end game farming areas does not constitute the bulk of the game content. People may or may not use it, but to try and state otherwise is kinda silly, especially when your position would have a effect on the rest of the game. Assuming that assassin's AL is arguably fine at anything lv24 or lower, then this would be a buff in the wrong palce to fix a pve use issue specifically. The use issue occurs throughout pve, but is not as obvious until you get to the very end areas where the AL just doesnt stand up well at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar How so? GW's skill sets are not trade-marked to any one class. ANET does its best to set certain guide lines, but playability still has to be maintained, and that is currently lacking in high end assassin PvE. There is such a thing as cross class balance. If one skill or style of skill becomes more favorable to use in all situations, it doesnt matter what primary is taking advantage of it. As for the Shadow refuge specifically, its a smaller issue when comparing it to troll ungent due to the comparable effects of healing over time. Given the nature of teleportation, that style of healing has some benefit to creating a more natural distribution for uptime. Unfortunatly it will not save the character from spike style damage. Buffing it up more duration wise, would have negative effects considering when the heal would most likely be needed and potentially render troll ungent obscelete. Upping the heal after time signifigantly enough to create the feel of "temporary hitpoints", like endure pain would potentially render healing signet obscelete. Its really in a tough postition given its current effect.

Quote: Originally Posted by lord_shar That 75AL to 90AL improvement won't apply until the assassin actually starts attacking. It is not the stable and consistent armor level you portray it to be, even with teleportation present. Warriors get a solid 96AL+ and damage absorbtion, so their tanking roles are quite secure. The assassin's total armor doesn't even come close. I believe that is the entire point of teleportation. Its to skip the times between when you are attacking and when you are not that the warrior (normally)does not have the same luxury and is typically forced to walk up to the target and needs to survive in order to get there. Alternativly, if you choose to not teleport to the target, dark escape halves the damage on your approach to the target, but you would still be required to teleport away if you have been threatened with a signifigant amount of damage, snared, or otherwise incapacitated.

Quote: Originally Posted by lord_shar This is probably true, but that doesn't address why the bulk of end-game PvE assassins can't find groups, especially in elite mission zones. I do not see people going on campaigns to advertise why mesmers would be a good choice in hunting named factions bosses, or that "utility" elementalists are useful in pve, or that necros have many other useful builds aside from SS and minion master setups. Even if changes are made, it will be difficult to sway publics' mind one way or the other.

Quote: Originally Posted by lord_shar It sounds like you're asking for the scope of impact GW will undergo when a +5AL base class armor bonus and mildly improved self-healing is introduced. The answer: 12.5% more damage mitigation and improved assassin healing rate. Yes, there will be impact downstream, and it is FULLY intentional. Any unforseen complications can be addressed while in Q/A. If the change creates too many negative issues which outweigh its benefits, then the changes can always be backed out, but you'll never know until you implement the change at least once, preferable in a Q/A test environment. If the results are promising in Q/A, then the new patch will be rolled out into production. It's that simple. Personally i hate the patch, then wait and see method myself opposed to the internal playtesting setup. People want to make their money as soon as they can though. Fortunatly, the game doesnt crash or skillsets do not just stop working bugs as seen from other game companies.

Personally i think the best example of the Q/A gone wrong, would have been the initial modifications to the prot line skills such as the changes to the skill refresh times. This is where they added 1s to no refresh time skills like draw conditions, but in the end it was merely a .25s "nerf" if the skill was used alone and had no penalty when alternated with another skill, which suggested that they didnt understand how their own game worked as ensign put it at the time. Later they changed heal party in a similar fashion, but skipped the 1s and went to 2s. Quote: Originally Posted by Ensign

Well that's the change that's really a head scratcher. A 1 second cooldown? All spells have a .75 second aftercast, so Draw Conditions could only be used once per second before. With this change, it can only be used once every 1.25 seconds. If you mix in RoF like many of the better Smiting builds already did, then you can only cast a Draw/RoF/Draw chain once every 3.25 seconds instead of every 3 seconds like you could before, leading to a remarkable 7.7% drop in DPS.

I seriously wonder if whoever made that change actually knows how their game works. Smiters gained more from Nature's Renewal getting smashed than this 'nerf' http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=51412
That kind of thing could have been noticed before any implementation was made simply by looking at a spreadsheet.

The critical hits on spells was an "amusing bug" along with thunder clap/spinal shivers acting like a sustained enchantment not ending at 0e. Things like that are fortuantly rare from ANET.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar
Problems are solved with direct solutions and quality testing, not round-about problem micro-management, global audits, and over-lengthly environmental impact reports. Their global audits have been rather slow in the making. The henge equipment along with other "unique", but moddable items were in the game for a very long time without any modifications compared to skill tunings that have occured. Hell, how long were people complaining about necromancer fow armor for? That wasnt even a game mechanics or balance issue to weigh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar
The above requires more change implementation Fixing the underlying problems tend to require more work.

.. Now for the guy hot under the collar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech
First, I have NEVER seen ANET ADD any skills outside of a new chapter. Changing armor properties has been done before (see the HOD Helm 50%-> 20% hex reduction), and would cost them ALOT less $$$ and QA time to implement. While I would LOVE to have the old shadow refuge back, I'm not so sure ANET is willing to make such a change. Now as for your statement of "using the available tools properly". That goes to support the arguments made here, that having a wider selection of more practical armor choices WOULD be beneficial and make assasins less restricted in playing style/build. Well, if they looked at how people played the profession and listend to peoples concernes before the pve preview event, it wouldnt have been an issue for adding skills after the chapter was released. The HoD helm was a year in the making, so i wouldn't wave that around as affirmitave action really.

I also should have specified "tools" more clearly as the skills employed, but whatever. Skills dictating the overal function, while the attributes determining the overal effect, then the equipment to tune the build. I have a much larger issue with the fact that the skills dictate how the profession should be played and that there is no depth in the assassin profession really. This is the problem they face when they get hit for 200+ damage in melee in lv28 zones, because they have no other way to play the primary using assassin skills. Trying to fault people for using the good skills doesnt really prove a point either other than pointing out the lack of other usable options.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech
... +15 while enchanted/stance would be DIFFERENT than +15 while attacking without providing any real counter argument. Then once again, you toss in an extra sweeping generalization about some campaign to remove knights armor and other BS. Seems to me you are more interested in ranting and arguing than improving assasins. If you cant identify that you are being kited and switch targets effectivly, then you are not playing any melee profession properly. The fact that the teleports do exist and that one of them happens to be an enchantment, which places the assassin into the most ideal condition possible to perform the combos, thus yeilding additional AL, you have no point really other than trying to duplicate what already exists. If you werent so bent out of shape, you might have actually caught the meaning behind the ascalon armor to knights comparison, or the pointless additional armor types due to the game mechanics in place.

You seem to be more interested in creating a rant than i am about trying to make a point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar
I also agree. Critical Defenses was also nerfed into oblivion. 30 seconds recycle and 10 energy for a 6-second duration enchantment??? What the heck! It's pretty much useless without Warrior's wild blow to sustain it. Having CritDef duration scale upward with critical strikes attribute level, 5..15 seconds depending on present attribute score, would have been more than reasonable. ... Temple Strike also got mugged with the nerf bat 25 seconds recharge time for two 7-second conditions is insane. 20 seconds would have been more reasonable. Yeah, ANET really over reacted with those two skills. I am kinda mixed about shadow refuge though. Shadow refuge had too much going for it before, now it doesnt have enough because they took away the other gimmic attachment.

The class still really needs a different option to play other than the jump into melee and perform a combo though. ANET just never went very deep into the utility aspect of the class unfortunatly. I am still rather puzzled how they came up with something so well rounded in the ritualist, yet something so one dimensional with the assassin. I dont know if they were purposefully attempting to create polar opposites or not, but that is certainly the end result. I would hate to think that this came about by sheer accident though and that all the "utlility" options the assassin have are just an afterthought.

lord_shar

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2005

near SF, CA

14 Jun 2006 at 17:56 - 144

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phades
Waited awhile before comming back to read, to see if anything different was being presented. I was getting tired of trying to rehash why creating armor to match the scaling up post level 20 is a bad thing due to how GW does not scale up past 20 as is.

Some minor stuff was presented, but not much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phades
This is a reasonable change to the armor, but the baseline armors would most likely become prefered (+health/energy) in the pvp venues, while it wouldnt help your pve problem at all. When mobs in Urgoz use simple things like wildstrike and hit for the 250~300 range against low end armor 60~70, it really wont make any difference what so ever. Especially when half of them have a nice habit of target switching after the pull to anything soft, or just simply bypassing the warrior out in front altogther.

Changing baseline armor from 70 to 75 avoids matching warrior armor levels while still being above ranged caster and ranger armor, so I don't see any problems here. AI-priority is a separate issue. Either way, the minor armor upgrade adds a little more survivability without tipping the balance scales too much in the assassin's favor at the expense of the warrior's tanking role.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phades
Malestorm, mindfreeze, and ice spear are terrible damage dealers. Actually, ice magic just sucks in general if you are trying to kill anything really opposed to holding someone in place for a teammate to kill. When you combine that with decent AL and any damage reduction, its not too hard to figure out why warriors can do that.

That still doesn't answer FoW spider farming Regardless, my sole point is that no other class comes close to matching warrior damage mitigation short of the 55-monk. It sounds like we agree here. Therefore, increasing assassin armor by +5 won't even come close to impacting the warrior's present tanking role in GW parties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phades
The end missions, a few select quests, and a small selection of end game farming areas does not constitute the bulk of the game content. People may or may not use it, but to try and state otherwise is kinda silly, especially when your position would have a effect on the rest of the game. Assuming that assassin's AL is arguably fine at anything lv24 or lower, then this would be a buff in the wrong palce to fix a pve use issue specifically. The use issue occurs throughout pve, but is not as obvious until you get to the very end areas where the AL just doesnt stand up well at all.

Assassins are still notorious for high death rates at all levels of PvE, hence the mass grouping prejudice. I don't mind seeing ANET shift their armor level slightly higher to compensate. Assassins have a steep enough learning curve as is, so it would not hurt ANET to lower that curve just a bit for the rest of the non-expert masses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phades
There is such a thing as cross class balance. If one skill or style of skill becomes more favorable to use in all situations, it doesnt matter what primary is taking advantage of it. As for the Shadow refuge specifically, its a smaller issue when comparing it to troll ungent due to the comparable effects of healing over time. Given the nature of teleportation, that style of healing has some benefit to creating a more natural distribution for uptime. Unfortunatly it will not save the character from spike style damage. Buffing it up more duration wise, would have negative effects considering when the heal would most likely be needed and potentially render troll ungent obscelete. Upping the heal after time signifigantly enough to create the feel of "temporary hitpoints", like endure pain would potentially render healing signet obscelete. Its really in a tough postition given its current effect.

I'm not sure how much I believe in cross-class balance. The utility factor of some classes (necro, ranger, monk) easily outshine their peers (assassin, mesmer, warrior, elem).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phades

I believe that is the entire point of teleportation. Its to skip the times between when you are attacking and when you are not that the warrior (normally)does not have the same luxury and is typically forced to walk up to the target and needs to survive in order to get there. Alternativly, if you choose to not teleport to the target, dark escape halves the damage on your approach to the target, but you would still be required to teleport away if you have been threatened with a signifigant amount of damage, snared, or otherwise incapacitated. Teleportation skills for the sake of running Nightstalker armor seriously depletes what little energy the assassin already has. Sure, the assassin can go Nightstalkers + Teleportation, but they have less energy upon arrival to pull off any high cost dagger combinations. Teleportation is a unique assassin ability, but they currently have very high casting costs and ridiculously long recharge rates. Then there is agro-management upon arrival.

There should be more armor choices, not less, to allow for creativity beyond Nightstalkers + Teleportation. No specific armor and skill combination should be "required" for any given class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

I do not see people going on campaigns to advertise why mesmers would be a good choice in hunting named factions bosses, or that "utility" elementalists are useful in pve, or that necros have many other useful builds aside from SS and minion master setups. Even if changes are made, it will be difficult to sway publics' mind one way or the other. It will take some notable skill upgrades from ANET to sway the masses. Improved healing, improved armor, and better elites would go a long way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Personally i hate the patch, then wait and see method myself opposed to the internal playtesting setup. People want to make their money as soon as they can though. Fortunatly, the game doesnt crash or skillsets do not just stop working bugs as seen from other game companies.

Personally i think the best example of the Q/A gone wrong, would have been the initial modifications to the prot line skills such as the changes to the skill refresh times. This is where they added 1s to no refresh time skills like draw conditions, but in the end it was merely a .25s "nerf" if the skill was used alone and had no penalty when alternated with another skill, which suggested that they didnt understand how their own game worked as ensign put it at the time. Later they changed heal party in a similar fashion, but skipped the 1s and went to 2s. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=51412
That kind of thing could have been noticed before any implementation was made simply by looking at a spreadsheet.

The critical hits on spells was an "amusing bug" along with thunder clap/spinal shivers acting like a sustained enchantment not ending at 0e. Things like that are fortuantly rare from ANET.
Yep, this is the wrong approach, but this is what ANET is currently doing. I don't want to flame them, but I do sometimes question if they have a Q/A dept. Proposed changes seem to get deployed directly into production with no apparent regard for feedback from users (us). Modern corporations have ITIL processes to address how to roll changes into production, but I don't see it happening here. I guess they're not quite up to the corporate standards I'm accustomed to seeing where I work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Their global audits have been rather slow in the making. The henge equipment along with other "unique", but moddable items were in the game for a very long time without any modifications compared to skill tunings that have occured. Hell, how long were people complaining about necromancer fow armor for? That wasnt even a game mechanics or balance issue to weigh.
Fixing the underlying problems tend to require more work. Unforunately, some problems cannot be fixed because the underlying problems are rooted in the application's infrastructure (or in this case, the assassin class's core functions). Without getting to broad-termed, let's just say that the assassin doesn't have enough skill set variety to make it more usable than an air elem/mesmer with some mobility tricks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades