The line between acceptable & unacceptable behavior

After a brief discussion with my fiancee about player actions when events do not go as they plan/wish, I wish to present before you three questions.

1. Under what circumstances does it become acceptable to abuse another player?

2. When is the line crossed from being angry to abusive?

3. Does animosity and lack of consequence of such behavior provided through the internet perpetuate abuse or is it the lack of monitoring children by parents?

There are many excuses that we may put forth such as age and maturity but does that make such behavior acceptable? I don’t feel as though it does. Do we, as a community of players in the realm of any game, allow this behavior to persist? By allowing it to persist do we perpetuate such behavior? Can we make servers for idiots only?

This is a problem to which I know there is no real answer. Even when it is pointed out to abusers that their behavior is abusive it does not rectify the problem nor does it correct the behavior to seclude abusers with abusers since abuse begets abuse. The only solution to abuse of any kind is self will to become a better person.

What I would like to know is the general opinion as to when abusive behavior is acceptable and when does it cross the line from being angry to abusive so as to determine if such behavior is; a social problem that is worldwide, associated with certain genres or exclusive to any other statistical grouping.

The concern is that if children are not be monitored and corrected for behaving in such a way or if the animosity and lack of consequence allows people to act this way online if will leak into other parts of life and we become a world of people who are totally inept of the feelings of our fellow mankind. Are we laying the groundwork's of a world where we no longer care about anything but ourselves?

~Andi

It's hard to answer in the abstract, but I prefer hard stances when it comes to abuse:

Abusive behavior is never acceptable.

I assume you are curious about how this applies to Guild Wars. NC Interactive agrees with the hardline stance at least in theory. See their User agreement (particularly sec. 4(j)) and the Rules of conduct item 5. However, I do think that they are very lax about policing violations of their user agreement (and for good reason, as they are in the business of game making, not babysitting).

In reality, the question of whether something is abusive or not tends to be the contested point.

Welcome to the internet, please enjoy your stay.

1) Never
2) When you attack the player instead of the player's actions
3) I think that the anonymous nature of the Internet lets people attack without fear of reprocussion. In a lot of ways, it lets us show out true forms. But it also lets us try out different personas.
I visit another video game site and do a lot of trolling. Now that's not me, I never have an unkind word to say to anyone in real life, or in GW, really, but it's fun to play "dress-up" if you will, every once in a while.

I'd guess that some of the flamers in GW are really nasty people/kids and others just want to flex their e-muscles.

if you let some anonymous person who you will never meet upset you or you feel the need to get wound up by what someone types in a game then i feel very sorry for you.
maybe just stop being so sensitive and quit feeling so precious that you dont think anyone should (god forbid) say something you dont like. ignore them, laugh at them, have a go back at them, just dont take it personally.

those who flame and diss people on internet, while being protected by the distance between screens and anonymosty (sry my bad english), will get used to it VERY fast, and will end up getting majorly burned in real life, due to poor person vs person (and not player vs player) experience.

as soon as they will get burned more then once, thery will be scared and pushed to the corner. they will have no choise then to change their behavior, even on a subcontious level of their little brains, due to their own nature of being cowards. because this is what most of internet flamers are, becuse if they are not, they dont need to proove to anybody (including themselfes) of their "coolness"

True. In this day and age there is a lot of pressure on young people - some more than others. Some live in fear of failure, or their reputation as a result of failure because schools/parents have high expectations of them at all times. They play GW to escape (its the best escapism) and to be someone else temporarily. This 'someone else' is still the same pressurized, stressed kid behind the computer screen from which there is very little policing and they don't feel as if they have to hold in their feelings as much which causes angry outbursts at the emotional expense of other players. As radical as it sounds, a lot of it is not due to the individuals but the society they are molded and forced in to. If you make people live so unnaturally, their behaviour changes. Take a Panda out of the wild and put him in a cage and he'll change from sombre and erratic at the slightest changes.

My opinion is that abusiveness is when another individual suffers unnecessary distress as a result of others' decisions/actions. I wouldn't call it a 'social problem' as such because the characters are facias distorting peoples' true personalities and considering that there are much more serious worldwide problems, policing this type of abuse is not a high priority in modern society. When people close their GW client I think they fully resort back to themselves so it won't leak in to the 'real world'. If that were ever to happen the people would be put in to place before they knew it.

Abusive behavior is NEVER acceptable, period.

I blame it all on Jackass and Bam Mageras. They`re turning our kids into idiots.

Agreed on #1.

Disagree, no TV program can 'turn kids into idiots', the choices we make with regards to behavior are not based on TV programs but on values and morals.
No, this is not some kind of religious crackpot but a very liberal, social-democrat speaking, one who learned from his parents that abuse and abusive behavior is wrong and that disagreement can either be resolved or, if it cannot, you simply disengage from dealing with the person or situation.

It's the sad consequence of dual incoming families. As much as female activists would speak otherwise don't we all agree that such things are much less of an occurence back in the day when mothers actually *gasp* raise their kids?

Sadly capitalism FTW! Everybody, man and woman, needs to work nowadays so they can get their same XBOX360s and SUVs to keep up with the Joneses next door...

I know this has been suggested before, but the minimap needs to be colored on who is drawing it but light colors so people can see it (white [player1] Lightblue [player 2] light purple [player 2] so on and so forth.) this would stop the penising, nazi, and T&A, it woud be great because when you see 2 arrows going diffent ways, you would see a white one and a light blue one, knowing that the white one is your guildie, and the light blue one is the wammo running off by him self. I find it easy to find out who is drawing this stuff, because most of the time it is an idiot who stops running to draw this stuff, and there is that one dot standing still, and running after the art class is done. derr

As for the abusiveness in chat and such, it doesn't bother me, because most of the time the rest of your team is already heading against them, and they are going to be outruled very easily. They may go try to train, but the monk will just let them die and stay dead. (we can normally live without 1 wammo)

Oh, and don't just asume this is children all the time, there are a ton of very immature adults out there, and one of my guildies is 16, and he is one of the most mature people I know.

1. It should be obvious, but I'll say it anyway: never.

2. It's alright to say something someone did wasn't smart, but to call them a fool who should take a long walk off a short pier is too far. ;p

3. I blame three factors... the anonymity of the internet, bad parenting, and a choice to act that way. The whole "you'll never know me in real life, so I can act however I want" mindset is problem one. Problem two, is people (not just kids, I've seen plenty of middleaged people being buffoons) not having enough values instilled by their parents/society. And the final, largest problem, is the person simply deciding to be a jerk. You can put all the values you want into peoples' heads, but they have to decide to act on those values themselves. If someone's bent on being a moron, there's not much you can do about it but ignore them and walk away.

This sounds like you're saying we should just take whatever abuse someone is dishing out---no way.
It's not a matter of being sensitive, or feeling precious--it's called common courtesy, plain and simple. Would you take abuse from someone you meet on the street? No, you wouldnt. The Internet is no different.

lets all be the "older person" and ignore these kids (or not so kids) with no self esteem

do we even realise that us getting upset/angry/frustrated/ sad is exactly the reaction they are looking for? by showing them that we CARE we only encourage them to keep going with their flamings

See, it drives me nuts when someone posts the little kid crossing the finish line - and it says Arguing on the internet is like running the special olympics - Even if you win you are still retarded...

First off, other than the bots that don't talk back (normally) everyone online is HUMAN and ALIVE! To me they are just as real. If you got their addy and went to see them, they are just as real as a best friend or your worst enemy. I get so tired of people who say that the internet isn't real.... Many of my guildies are friends I have had over the net for years. I have met them in real life. Gone on looooooong road trips with a few. Even lived at their houses for a month here or there for extended visits. And some of them, I would trust more than my own family.

So when you say things like you feel sorry for me that I let it bother me.... Fine, but it still amuses me that coming from someone who thinks its so sad to care what someone thinks that you would feel sorry for me.

You are just as real as me, people DIE to others they meet on the internet. Others meet online and get married. Some just remain friends.

If someone is being abusive to you online, its the same as real life to me. They can be just as dangerous or just as kind as someone in real life. That person treating you kind or like crap, could live right next door and you would never know it.


So abuse is always abuse when that person says something that is over the line - when confronted they just get even worse. Someone unwilling to work out the issue in a peaceful manner is over stepping the line and should be banned, no matter what the situation. Everything can be worked out peacefully and we can all be decent if we choose. I may get rude on the boards but I know the boundaries and if I overstep them I have no problem being nice. I have yet to overstep those boundaries ingame. I usually just say something like: "just because you don't like it doesn't mean you have to get hateful about it" OR I just block them.

Anyone under 15yrs old shouldnt be playing anyways >_< Same goes with those who have the mentality of a 12yr old! Shoot I have a 12yr old in my guild who acts 17, his brother on the other hand.... 15yrs old and acts like he is 7 >_< Can't win them all folks.

it is funny how people seem to think that it is bad to use abusive language and stuff (i.e. "be jerk"), but it is ok to be an idiot, clueless moron and behave foolishly in general. When someone ruining my game he is told to go straigh to hell. And whoever has a problem with that can go the same way.

It has nothing too do with "duel Income families", it is the effect off the liberal way's of the 60's and 70's when teaching your children the "old" way was frownd up on, you no longer had to accept that an older person told you anything, thoes teenagers are now raising kid's and do not belive in spanking children when needed. Sad to say there has to be a punishment for wrong behavier, something that makes you sit back and say " no that will hurt if they find out". Being grounded with your computer is no punishment. Getting a sore backside, so you can't sit at computer is.


Let me guess. You more or less spend all your time at the "puter", can't se you have many friends.

Just because anonymity shows peoples true nature doesnt mean that anonmyity is wrong. its the people's actions that are wrong. If you treat the internet as a fake place, than your actions will show that (treating others as not real). If you treat online and internet relations as real, then your actions will show that. And it has nothing to do with mothers not staying at home and/or liberals.

So basically your saying to lower yourself to their level when a "You being a jerk is unwanted here so go away" would suffice. I don`t tolerate jerks but I don`t become one to get rid of them either.

It's pathetic. The statistics I see on GW is 80% jerks. There isn't one day where I can go online and not see one.

However, it make me feel better that I'm more mature and more superior than them because I have excellent social skills in real life. When I apply that to GW, people liked me so much that I have even received 1k as random gifts, gold max Magmas Shields and someone even gave me a Gordac's Needle (Which I sold for 10k - Refer to stupidest things I've done thread ).

I'm not angry at jerks on GW, but I feel very sorry for them. Because you can just feel that they are some fat hormonal teenager who gets his luch money beaten out of him by school bullies. I should know that because I used to be a bully, and the guy I picked on would take his frustrations out in Runescape.

So yeah don't feel angry, feel sorry for them. Pity those poor adolescent halfwits, because GW is the only way they can feel better by putting other people down.

Is that the way things are these days? Nice My parents never bothered to keep up with anyone ever :P N64 was a few yrs old before I got one..... and thats only because my bro's God father got him one :P

~prime

Is this a very thin veiled attempt to invoke some sense of irony?

This is more then just a GW problem... it's an all over the internet problem. What sparked the conversation between my fiancee and I was a link to this clip: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...44300866646599.

It's very funny and we both laughed at it but then I started to think that it was actually sorry that some people are completely rude, inept and uncaring of other peoples feelings online. It's not about whether being abused upsets me, If it's ok because not only will I never meet that person but that person will never meet me or even if others will gift my prizes for better behavior but when do we cross the line and say that this is an acceptable way to act

It's easy to say, "it's online and an escapism to vent ones feelings." Does that still make it ok? Is saying it's ok to behave poorly online also begin to communicate that it's ok to behave that way offline? It’s also easy to say I act one way online but I’m not really that way offline... regardless to online of offline behavior you are always portraying a part of yourself.

I am not saying that it’s not ok to RP... please!!! Do RP!!!! I have played evil PC’s before, knowing that in every PC that I RP there is a little bit of myself in each character. I LOVED playing my evil PC’s... I found out a lot about me in the process, but the problem lays in that most people do not RP online in games such as GW or in chat rooms/etc.

One last thing (at least for now) I met my future husband online. Not through one of those online services but in (you guessed it) a game. My fiancee and I me on a game server for NWN... we were neither one looking for a relationship but our true personality shone through enough that we knew that we wanted to get to know each other better. We have overcome a lot of difficulties and have much more to face... the lest of which it that he lives in Scotland and I live in the States.

~Andi

No, I was just pissed after (yet again) being have to spam target call for half an hour for my team to notice monk happily healing their target.

1. Under what circumstances does it become acceptable to abuse another player?

~ Abuse is never acceptable, though it is extremely common.

2. When is the line crossed from being angry to abusive?

~ When you actually say what you are thinking.

3. Does animosity and lack of consequence of such behavior provided through the internet perpetuate abuse or is it the lack of monitoring children by parents?

~ I think it's that false sense of security. "I can call this person a fag and there is nothing they can do about it" suddenly everyone has a big S on their chest and they can do anything they want.

Frankly I'm getting tired of it all, if it weren't for finding a group I wouldn't mind if the game had no talking at all. Today for example, some mental degenerate was spamming the local chat with weapon sales (bad ones at that) I simply pointed out that there was a trade window for that to which he responded "bite me pal" I don't know why but I sudden had the urge to find out where he lives and bash his head in.

Actually, yes

You see, the nice guys in GW actually kick ass in real life. Because our outside lives aern't so miserable, we don't act like jerks in games. We can perfectly own anyone in the real world.

The jerks in the game are losers in real life, so to compensate for their misery and short penises, they are what they are online. But we all know that the next day when he goes to school, he's just gonna get beaten up by some guy just like me.

The the cycle repeats itself when he goes online. More jerkish behaviour and the next day he gets his ass kicked in real life.

Ahaha, how novel.

It's not ok to abuse other players, because as it has been pointed out, there is a real person controlling the character you're laying into. If they started it, it's one thing, but aside from telling them to shut up or leave other people alone, it doesn't help anything for us to become abusive in return. In fact, that's usually what they want, so it only makes it worse.

I suppose we should feel sorry for people who are jerks, the fact that they're trying to hurt people's feelings or ruin someone's fun at playing a game is a sign that they are a miserable person. Just like the boss who terrorizes his employees to deal with the fact that he isn't respected at home in his off time, people who are jerks in-game do so to feel powerful and feel free to do so because nobody can punch them in the face like they'd get they acted like a jerk the same way in person. Instead of the boss telling his wife to stop driving him crazy, instead of the miserable online jerk standing up to the bullies or abusive family members, they go find someone who can't defend or protect themselves and take it out on them to feel better. And shame on them for taking the coward's way out and making other people miserable in the process.

Granted, some people come off like jerks because they have poorly developed social skills and don't understand that certain things are rude, or there are cultural differences that one person may find something acceptable and another person may find it to be the most vile and offensive thing ever. "Dude, what is your problem?" works a lot better than "STFU you ----ing retard" when someone offends you, offensive comments are not always intentional and being offensive in return doesn't get anywhere. Imagine how much better it would be if everyone remembered we're playing this game to have fun.

Post of the day.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

only hing that bothers me is that since my lil brother started playing GW he became much more rude and start swearing.

not good

Im gonna second the welcome to the internet. Incompetent players in coop missions piss me off, and if I call you a dumb newb after explaining 50 times why we shouldnt rush hoards of mobs, maybe, just maybe, you are a dumb newb.

Note for those of you who are new to the web (which apparently some of you are...) newb doesnt just mean you are new to the game, it is a way of saying 'Good Sir or Madame, your incompent display has vexed me to the point of outburst, and despite many attempts to assist you in our mission you continue to display a monstrous level of douchedom. Please dump a glass of soda on your keyboard and call it a day, thanks for playing!'

Now, if you are not or were not acting in said newbish ways, they are not worth your attention, you can choose to ignore them, or give as good as you get, just remember one thing: Arguing on the web is like the special olympics, even if you win, you are still retarted.

can we say as@@@@@! your probablly the type of guy that beleives woman shouldn t be in the work place either right.

never ever ever is it ok for anyone to say what they want when they want no matter were you are. there is this great thing in the u.s. called freedom of speech but there is also an amendment to that. it is against the law for anyone no matter were you are to abuse others physically or verbally. i had a racial incident within gw in which anet did not take care of properlly but the law has. just because you think you are hiding behind a computer were no one can reach you, think again.

this is just an idiot who probablly is someone who in game would be thee abussive person. plus also he or she is 12. it is also the type of comment that would make someone beleive that you think it is ok to just be an a@@ in a game because it is just a game.

Ok, so basically everyone has stated that abusive behavior is NEVER acceptable. Well, I have to admit that on the rare occasion I have been "abusive" to other players. I guess this isn't very mature of me; however, there are players out there that we've all played with one time or another that just goes above and beyond stupidity. For example, the infamous "I'm Invicible and nothing can kill me" wammo that continously ignores the pleas and requests from the team to stop/slow down/be patient/don't aggro everything sort of thing.

While I do agree that abusive behavior is immature and I'm guilty of it in these circumstances, but when a player's gameplay is constantly a detriment to the team then I have absolutely no qualms about telling them off. I don't get downright vulgar with them, but I will say things like, "Slow the f--k down <placeyournamehere>", or "Stop damnit! Let casters recharge!" or "What in the hell are you doing <placeyournamehere>???".

So call me what you will, but I don't like to play a mission over and over and over just because some idiot doesn't have good teamwork even when he's been asked to do things that will help the team. I know it is just a game, but it's my hard earned free time I'm wasting at the expense of some scrub who either A)Has no concept of teamplay or B)Is a jerk who just wants to do his own thing.

Disclaimer: I'm speaking more specifically of the late game missions because by this time in the game players SHOULD have developed some sort of basic skills of teamplay. For the earlier missions (pre-Southern Shiverpeaks) I would give them the benefit of the doubt. Also, it's rare that I do say such things and I don't jump on someone until they've repetitively ignored suggestions and done stupid things that the team has asked him not to do.

Not that I agree with calling anyone a newb but your post is damn funny. I too have been vexed in this game and other by players who just don`t seem to have a clue or plan to get one anytime soon but we must remember we were all there at one time or another. Next time take a deep breath, find a different group and mumble my matra "Everyone here`s an idiot but me!"

Yeah... and if only those colored people would get back in the field picking fruits where they... oh wait...

I'm one of those colored people.

And I was raised by a single mother.

And somehow I got into one of the top law schools in the USA, my brother is a doctor, my other brother a physicist, and my sister tri-lingual (and on her way out of college so we don't know yet where she will land).

Yeah... those nasty uppity women who dare to put on shoes, stop being pregnant, and start getting jobs. If not for them, I wouldn't have gotten anywhere - I'd probably be in the hood or the field were people like you probably think people like me belong.

Darn shame the world isn't run by stodgy old anglo men anymore isn't it?

LOL. True, some people are dumb and no amount of helping them makes any difference. Is railing on them going to make them play any better? No, but some people do it anyway. It's just not worth it, especially if you get a temporary ban for being abusive. Tell them 'gw.gamewikis.org - read it and learn how to play, I'm tired of wasting my time'. If you're lucky they'll read it and be less stupid

By the way, did I mention that the game would be much more enjoyable if the Ignore feature were expanded? There's sooo many people who need ignoring. If they had a District Ignore list, where you click someone's name in the Chat window and choose Ignore in District, as long as they're there you see none of their stupid spam or insults or annoyances. Most of the time whe you want to ignore someone you don't need them to be ignored for a long time since they leave or you leave eventually so that's the kind of ignore list we really need - a large short-term list. Then if you move districts or towns you start with an empty District Ignore list that you hopefully won't have to fill up. If someone is a stalker, put them on the Permanent Ignore list. Thank you, have a nice day.

I must admitt on occasion I have an in game flip out moment. These moments are usually brought on by a lovely little aggro drawing caster. They refuse to kite and just stand there soaking up heals. Then when they die, they ask why they didn't get any healing. I flip out!!! I say random weird things that make no sense other than to say I am pissed off that they didn't see the little blue numbers appearing over their head every 3/4 of a second. Picture monk with rabies!

Somehow I have still never managed to call someone a newb or actually be a jerk. The closest I have come to being a jerk was trying to kill Glint. We went specifically for the bonus, and when we get there it was all headless chickens! So 20 seconds after picking up the egg we finish loading Droks and I say "worst bonus group ever," and leave. No n00b calling or anything, I still felt bad a few minutes later. I was mad, but that doesn't justify saying anything rude to people.

I just chalk it all up to living in a time where a seemingly vast majority of people (kids and adults) take much of what they have for granted. We have generations walking around with notions of "freedoms" and "rights", that don't realize these things are merely conditional priveledges that can be taken away. I wouldn't blame this lack of realization on parenting, or a scapegoat such as society, but rather on the individual themselves. If a person is literate the only excuse for ignorance is lazyness (in my opinion). We make choices, as individuals, in how we act & react in every situation. As such, I find the individual to blame rather than their dual-income parents, or the Liberal shift in governments, etc., and so on. I think I would be hard-pressed to believe, even for an instant, that it was possible for a person with access to the internet, the cognitive ability to game, and the physical skills to type, to have a viable and valid excuse for their behaviour that was not directly a result of their choices. Wether we see or experience negativity, does not immediately preclude that we will BE negative (or vice versa for so-called positive behaviour). As Pepsi would say, the choice is ours.

My 2 cents on the topic.

Seeing you have a long list of threads as it is, I didn't feel like reading.

As to the point to send in screenshots:

1) If its sexual or harrasment- A.nets response- Use Ignore List
2) If scammed- Screenshot -> A.net cannot refund items
3) Bots- Selling guild wars keys -> A.net will look into it
4) Offensive name - screenshot -> short suspension and name change

True many immature people are in the world, just wait for life to come around and hit them back.

1. Never

2. When you direct your anger at the person, rather than their actions. Or when you direct your anger at a person, because you're upset about somthing else.

3. Both. Annonimity is also a huge factor, abusers face no real world consequences. They also face no in-game consequences, or very little in-game consequences. With the most severe abusers, even harsh in-game consequences would do nothing, as they're only playing the game to abuse others, for whatever reason.

No it does not, even if the justification for excusing the behavior is rock solid.

Unfortunately, as a community we can do very little to stop it from persisting. The only to make it stop is to provide fitting consequences for such behavior, or remove the reason for the behavior. The gaming community can not do either.

If you were in a postition to stop such behavior, yes. Again, there's very little that can be done in-game to stop such behavior.

If only.

The groundwork has already been laid. The decay of values and morals in society is just another example. We live in a world where almost anything is acceptable, as long as it can be justified with an excuse, or is apologized for, and there are virtualy no repercussions, or greatly reduced repercussions after said excuse or apology is made. An example being(American legal system only, it does vary by state aswell) you comit a crime somone, plead to a lesser charge because you're "sorry." You recieve reduced time off of the lesser charge that you plead to, then you are released when 2/3 of your 'minimum' sentence is complete.