PvP Snobbery

I'd like to open disscussion on this topic.

okay so in another (very lame) off topic thread this came up in a few posts (if you read between the lines).

It seems that certain PvP players view the GW player base as:

PvE players - worthless unless they are need to get me through the missions. PvE is for sissies.

Aliance Batt: - pvP for PvE players...see above

PvP in RA - lowest echeolon of PvP the PREschool of PvP no SERIOUS PvP happens here. Any PvP build that is used here is weak and just silly it's not REAL PvP.

PvP in TA - almost as above yet it's okay if you do it with guild mates when you are bored.

HoH- the upper echelon of PvP hottly debated as the BEST pVPer's...unless your a GVG 'er (see below)

GvG- the ONLY TRUE PvP (since when did PvP mean Capture the flag I'll never know).....often knock heads with the HoH as to who has the biggest $%#.....


now I always saw all of these types of the game as a field unto itself with varying skills needed in each one....a...pick your poison....sort of approach...

PvP is Player versus player after all?

and guild versus guild...well that's a whole horse of a differnt color isn't it. I mean isn't it like comparing American football and Soccer....they have similar skills needed to play...but it's not the same sport.

but I can see that this is not the common view....

Disscuss?

EDIT ADDED: for those that only read the first post (which is lame btw you should read the thread before commenting) THIS IS NOT A PvE vs PVP thread Post that "beating dead horse" content elsewhere.

HA is at about the same level as RA

Firstly...

American Football = Rugby for Wimps
Soccer = Football

Anyhow I think your right about Random Arena being the so-called "bottom" of the PvP ladder.

Most people use it for testing purposes, trash talking, rage quiting, griefing, insulting other people's builds (IWAY and Touch Ranger haters for example) and plain being rude.

I do enjoy the Random Arena the most however, it's the fastest and easist way to enter PvP battles, rewards are ok, battles tend to end quickly.

Really its the rage/grief quiters who make the place a problem. For example:

Luna Silverwood has joined the game
Super Warrior has joined the game
I R leet has joined the game
Spellbreaker has joined the game

(In local chat) I R leet: "oh S*** dudes, we don't have a monk... lol and we have a n00b touch ranger on our team as well. lol good luck winning you d***s

I R leet has left the game

Alliance battles are considered fairly good as far as "real PvP" goes, or so seems the prevailing opinion here. Team arenas are also high on the list (I can attest that the level of competition is very solid). HA is actually supposed to be pretty bad, though opinions vary on that one.

I have to agree that Random Arena is low end PvP, and this is coming from someone who's played quite a lot of RA. RA is rife with poor builds, bad players, bad sportsmanship, and just RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOtardery in general. I for one am heartily sick of it.

While I think it's a decent place to hone basic PvP skills and to test builds, it's not much more than that. IMO Alliance Battles are quite good as a casual friendly format. It doesn't take much effort to form a team (though you can be as selective as you want), it's objective based, you have more flexibility in your builds, and generally map control and positioning plays a far greater role which adds to the gameplay depth. Too bad you can't do any thing larger than coordinating your own 4-man team, thanks to A.net's asinine restriction on communication.

since when is GvG "capture the flag" ?

i consider GvG the main form of PvP in guild wars, hence the name of the game, but also becuase it's the only form where
a) you get to organise your complete team
b) you need to have tactics that exceed "let's cap at 2 mins"
c) you get rewards for winning and penalties for losing

GvG is the only form of pvp that includes penalties for a loss, making it much more tense ...

TA is actually pretty damn challenging sometimes. there are some pretty decent teams in there...

GvG is NOT capture the flag...you can win without ever touching the flag...but it helps

Let's follow your statement. GvG = CTF, thus, capping most flags = win, thus, let's all go W/R with all running skills, and let's run as many flags as possible, thus, we win. Well...good luck!

/sarcasm and stupiditism

lol so true

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTSFirebat Soccer = Football

in my opinion: Soccer = Football = chav game < Squirrel Waterskiing

Most of the ideas about pvp are true

Ra < Ta + Alliance battles< HoH < GvG

People see Pvp as superior to Pve as it is the most competative form of play
Pve can get a bit boring after a while whereas there are always new builds to play and counter in Pvp. You can try different builds in pve...yes but you are always fighting the same (generally not too adept) opponent.

(proper) Pvp is for people who want to play at a really high level and be the best of the best.

Ra and Alliance battles are just for fun
Ta is also mainly just fun however there are actually some pretty good players there (e.g. anyone with r3 glad titles)

HoH is higher level pvp but still for the masses. At a lower level (out of the top 500) gvg is for fun. Below 500 it becomes a good bit more serious however the competion really starts in the to 200-150's.

Oh, one more thing: PvP is "superior", because it cannot be bottified...

I'm pretty sure I can make a bot that can lead an 8 man team through THK, or Hell's precipe...although coding one for famefarming..gj on that...No AI will ever be capable of doing that.

Except HA requires teamwork, coordination, skill, 8 people, and balance for 3 different scenarios. If you think HA and RA are the same play level, try going to HA, because I think you'll find it much different.

As I said in another thread;

GvG and Team Arena are the only places where you will face some decent high level competition, and your build is not limited by bad gameplay mechanics. There is the odd PuG gvg going on, but normally when you hit enter for a GvG you will get a decent guild group who will no doubt offer you a challenge. Rolling endless IWAY or Bloodspike PuGs in HA becomes nothing but tedious.

Random Arena and Heroes Ascent are both infested with horrible gimmick builds, terrible players, and just plain bad manners.

GvG is also the only place where build and excecution of the build is not the only important factor; there is also a large amount of strategy involved. While that is also true to a very very minor extent in HA, it is nowhere close.

GW was created to be a pve/pvp game, the vaunted idea behind it was that the two groups might be able to function together in a cooperative spirit.

Unfortunately, this has proven to be impossible. Most pvp players consider themselves to be a cut above the average pve player, they are convinced that the competitive part of their game makes them better players. I come across it a lot on the forums, especially on 'The Guild Hall', there are a lot of elitists there. One of my favourite comments from pvp snobs is, "maybe your not playing the right game, maybe you should go & play Oblivion",

As far as the pvp community is concerned GW will not be a good game until all pve players leave & they have their 'UAS' so that they never need sully their hands with pve again.

At the end of the day pvp players are no better than pve, any perceived superiority is purely in the smug minds of the players themselves & nowhere else.

GW has given me one thing though... I had no experience of the dedicated pvp'er before this game & I now know I will never want to join a true pvp game because of their unbelievable arrogance.

You all know I cringe when I see a subject title such as this If the discussion can stay contributing and some insightful debate then it will stay open. However, as by the posts I have all ready deleted, if it can't stay away from flames or flamebait then I will need to close this.

But it didn't and probably never will. If anything IIRC, the BWEs seem to paint GW as a PvP game.

Of course, whatever the BWEs did, what is done is done, but this merge both game modes together concept, is never, ever going to work. All they are succeeding in doing at the moment is cause both communities to antagonize one another.

Head onto GWO and you see many PvErs who mirror the folks at TGH perfectly. "Go back to playing FPS you (fill in the blanks)." People are like this everywhere.

And yeah, if you come down to it, competition makes better players, no two ways about it. Doesn't make them better people, or better at anything else (unless another PvP MMO comes along, that has similar concepts), but it does make them better players.

They want this because PvErs "never need sully their hands with PvP" to begin with.

If you want to go by the entire population, it is more or less the same, you have your Joe Wammo and your Joe RA scrub. If you get down to whose on top, well, PvP forces you to play in a well, competitive environment, while PvE is far, far more casual.

Your loss.

If I had that same attitude, I would never play a PvE MMORPG again after I experienced the monstrous egos some people had in EQ. But I did, and continued to enjoy it.

Why?
Because i can sleep and still get "Master's reward".

That enough said.

The whole reason why people PvP is simply because its to go agaisnt an opponent that will, you know, actually react to what I am doing.I can't count the number of times I have interrupted a Afflicted Ritualist's Flesh of my Flesh,you can simply interrupt it and they will simply try to cast it again.

PvE is too predictable.Your enemy is simply a scripted intelligence who will not react to anything but your aggro bubble.

[QUOTE=Blow Up Doll]
People see Pvp as superior to Pve as it is the most competative form of play
Pve can get a bit boring after a while whereas there are always new builds to play and counter in Pvp. You can try different builds in pve...yes but you are always fighting the same (generally not too adept) opponent.

"PvP superior? Most teams run and fight the same builds over and over, IF a new build does happen to come along, then it's Cut and Paste time for others and repeat the above. That argument holds no validity as you can say the say for diversity in PvP as you stated for PvE."

(proper) Pvp is for people who want to play at a really high level and be the best of the best.

"I do not consider CC builds and mashing a few keys the "Best of the Best". GW has one of the worst forms of PvP I have encountered in a game, yet the most snobbish and rude players in that area. Try RvR where you create ONE build, learn all it's diversity, and face hundreds at times in PvP, good team work, and yes that is even in Random groups, as people learn to play a character and depend on each to know how to play it well. That is PvP, not changing builds in a blink and copying builds. not just 4, 8, 12, etc.
And even then people do not claim "Best of the Best", I belive this attitude came about by giveing RL trips and cash awards.
The argument in GW between PvP and PvE has been long standing, and imo it will not get better, when either is pushed into a playstyle they do not like, it drives the community farther apart and loses players. We do not have to agree upon anothers playstyle , but I believe we have to stop disrespecting it."

This has been the only true comment on the current pvp situation so far.

Youre also forgetting though that the 12v12 battles serve the sole purpose of trying to get all the farmers into pvp. Why you ask? As I have stated in the past, the serious pvp players get nothing out of it but a laugh and get to run a complete gimick build. Whats the reward for it? Kurzik or Luxon faction, which is used for what? Jade or Amber. You need XX amount of Jade or Amber for your armor if you dont have the money to buy it from others. Which brings up the true reason people are doing it. FARMING. amber is selling for 2.2k atm. theres an easy 20k and u can get 10k in an hour easy. when amber was higher, it was MUCH easier to make tripple that amount.

the whole thing is a very bad attempt to force the farmers to try pvp in hopes that they quit farming those trying to kill off these gold for money sites or people bitching because some people farm all day and have things that others cannot afford.

Ever seen a Whammo who joins a RA game, says that he is wielding a "Victo's Bulwark" and "Victo's Somethingelse" then gets spiked in a matter of seconds when the game starts ? I see them all the time and it says something about PvE players IMHO.

And what's even funnier, the guy doesn't even know that he is making an idiot of himself because for every green item there's a PvP item with the same or better stats (or you can make it using unlocked mods).

this is the type of thing I am talking about...any many of your other very good example about how PvE and PvP tend to not mix...due to crazyness on both sides.

the problem is well documented....what are possible solutions?

Factions was ment to bring the two together...did it work?

I disagree - the farmers generally don't want to waste their time on a 12v12 match when they have a build they've used 1,000 times against trolls/grawl/etc. that they know will work.

It's trying to get the hardcore PvEers (like myself) into PvP by appealing to their basic desires:

- Monetary reward for completion;
- Use of pirmarily PvE skills in a PvP arena (e.g. minions);
- Mass chaos to make the PvP experience more PuG-like/winnable.

Random arenas fail to do this because of the very small nature (4v4). TA, HA and GvG generally involves some sort of pre-selection that adds a bit too much order for the standard PvEer's liking.

In the end, I don't know whether or not it will work. Many people claim that it has failed, but then again I see a ton of "LF a Guild that will help me in PvP" messages posted out there, which I assume are from hardcore PvEers that are now becoming interested in PvP because of Factions.

This, IMO, is a very bad blanket statement. You can't condemn the whole PVE community because of a few Whammos. Should PvE players say the same thing about PvP players due to the "uber elitist PvP ranked player" who shows up in PvE and displays the worst attitude in the game?

I'd say you've summed things up quite nicely there. As someone who plays mainly GvG, with occasional HA if i get a group with people on my FL i know will win halls, what you've written there is pretty much my view of PvP.

One small exception might be that although at the moment Alliance Battles are basically PvP for PvE-ers, with a few improvements they could become as good and competitive as GvG. At the moment it's 8 pve wammo's, 1 pve MM and a premade E/R vs the same on the opposing team, pretty much every time.

There is no shortage of rotten Guild Wars players with rancid attitudes. They just manifest differently as a result of the playstyle they are in.

For every PvP player that is a loudmouth lout who feels that he is a better person because he has top ranked Guild there are just as many noisy jerkwad PvE players who think they're better than other people because they has a full storage with a bajillion ectos and equipped with the finest prestige armor and weapons. For every PvP player that thinks he's awesome just because he can play whatever flavor of the month in HoH enough to get a rank emote there is a PvE player who think they are awesome because they are able to play a l33t forum build to beat up poorly scripted monsters.

It's the same crap, just in slightly different packaging.

I don;t want this to degenerate into a PvE vs PvP thread: we got a ton of those already.

this is a PvP vs PvP thread: LOL

what I am saying is, there seems to be a division even amongst the PvPer's numbers too...RA + HA being apparently the lowest cast.

I don't agree with the statements in my post (those are just the general trend I have seen)....so for those of you who said you agreeed with that list I made...you are the problem children I am talking about.

yes yes we know there is a problem..HOW about some solutions people? Anyone?
Anyone?

I think that GW is an Excellent game which suffers from the diversity of its player base. Even though GW is a sword & sorcery medieval fantasy genre game environment, it seems to me that most PvP players really have no interest in this particular genre. Seems as if most would be just as happy playing a game in which they could fly spaceships, or drive giant robots around shooting at each other.

I also see many PvE players in-game who obviously have no interest in sword & sorcery fantasy. They refer to their character as "Toons", and they play the game as if they were playing Donkey-Kong or Pacman.

Then we have the Role-Players who get lost in the shuffle and leave GW for greener pastures.

Unless GW goes to a monthly fee to play and separates player-types by servers/districts.... the Chaos here will only get worse.

I wouldn't phrase it in those terms, but the sentiment is genuine and undeniable. PvE teaches you nothing beyond how to exploit predictable AI weaknesses. I find it very hard to respect the skills of a PvE-only player. This is not to say that PvP doesn't have its good share of truly worthless players, but on the whole you run into the best Guild Wars players in PvP. Mainly in TA and GvG.

Overdramatization. There is no "chaos". People, on the whole, are satisfied with how things are, at least as far as pvp vs pve goes--you don't see pve players coming into RA, announcing "f all u pvpers" and leaving, and nor do you see pvp players coming into Vizunah, announcing "lol pve noobs" and leaving. More often than not, ingame, the two "sides" will leave each other alone.

Ah, sorry Dove, I misunderstood the intent of your post.

There is no solution. Some people will always be snarky when it comes to the top levels of play, but that's something you have to deal with in this sort of game. Whether it be a FPS, Fighting Game, or RTS.

However, that doesn't invalidate what you enjoy and you shouldn't let it.

What's the difference between a 13 year old who plays World of Warcraft and a 13 year old who plays Guild Wars?

The 13 year old who plays Guild Wars couldn't get his mom to spring for a monthy fee.

Seriously, though, while I do not have quite an extensive Pay to Play history (World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy XI being the only two I've played) as others, I've seen absolutely nothing that supports that an online community is that improved in the slightest with the addition of a monthly fee.

I was in fort aspenwood, yesterday, doing alliance battles for the mandatory 10k grind.....and I actually saw people coming in and out saying. "pve noobs, losers, hahah, if it wasn't for us, you wouldn't have a game to play"

and then this... truly priceless...


"I want only other r6+ people to press enter battle the same time as me! will anyone r6+ ONLY, press button same time as me!!!!!!eleven!!!"

but yes.. there is some hardcore snobbery going on in this game. it really gives you a good idea that the base of the players are in high school or younger.

Heh, spot on impression. That's incredibly annoying although can't help but get the feeling to brag when you win in a 3v4 situation.

I once suggested that HoH battles subtract Fame whenever you lose, so that fame farming would be incredibly difficult, and only the truly best can show off their ranks.

Not a lot of people liked that idea. -.o

rofl, i know it was probably just a coincidence that you were making this name, but I R Leet is the coolest romanian you will ever meet.

I'm glad that you don't make the decisions, otherwise GW would die off.

I agree with OP that it is very funny how many of the alleged "top Guilds" who get creamed by IWAY builds on the Underworld map of HA will go around saying that HA is not legitimate PVP. In my view HA is the tournament because it is where the most skill is required.

Ultimately, most players who try to disrespect other forms of PVP do so only because they get thrashed very badly at them due to being unskilled at them.

All of the PVP modes in Guild Wars are hard and hence should be respected, Tombs/HA most of all.

Sanji,

I have to agree with you. I have played m games and it seems that John Gabriel's Greater Internet F-wad theory seems to always prevail.

for those of you who don;t know what that is:

Normal person + anonymity+ audience = F-wad

Can we site some example of game that HAVE really brought ppl together in a positive way? And find out why and how?

Again if you're just going to post how much PvE or PvP is better than the other please post in any of the 15 other threads that have beat that horse to death....that's not what we are disscussing here.

Im looking for ideas on what would make the community better and more cohesive....

Many PvP players don't see much challenge in PvE, that they see as static and bound by AI rules. However I don't think they will call a PvE player a sissy. They just enjoy different things on the GW spectrum imho.

I've played a nice number of AB by now. It's relaxing PvP. Relaxing in the way that the pressure is smaller then most other forms of PvP due the fact that the maps are big (you can retreat, unlike HA, RA or TA) and the battles are less controlled (no full guild teams, so cooridination less then GvG). Its great fun, and is a nice form of PvP for new PvP players to learn important points of PvP without the pressure that comes with the other forms of PvP. I understand that where the remark 'pvp for pve players' comes from, its because AB has quite a few NPC's that are key to victory (the controlpoints). However I don't agree with that sentiment, as GvG (Guild Lord, Bodyguards, etc) and HA (Ghostly Hero, Priest) also have influence of NPC's.

Now, I fully have to agree here. The 'R' of 'Random Arena' should stand for 'Retard'. It's not the fault of anyone that plays in RA. Nor are people stupid that play it. It's just that the way RA works it creates retarded builds. Since you can't be certain of a healer, players pack a self heal. So far, so good. But organisation is lacking completely in these teams, unless in those rare situations people will actually pick a targetcaller. My point with RA is that is selfish PvP. Players often look out only for themselves, not their team. A build like a Paladin, that absolutely wouldn't make any sense in any other pvp setting, could do ok here. It teaches players the wrong things, making them a step behind to play pvp in different settings.

not much wrong with TA. move along.

HoH teaches you some things. It is ok, altough if there are dominant FotM builds, it can get boring fast. Facing IWAY 5 out of 6 times isn't exactly exciting...but that's a matter of opinion.

there are more strategies possible in GvG compared to HA, which make it, at least in my humble opinion, a bit more interesting. But opinons differ on this.

partly true. There are differences for sure, but the base principles remain the same.


Now, on this rant on PvP arrogance, I'd like to add some experiences I had in PvE lately:

- going into mission, 2 of 8 ragequit immediately
- going into mission, someone leeches the mission (happend twice)
- loner's syndrom (a guy that runs of, and thinks he knows it better then the complete full party)
- joining for bonus, only ending up with mission because they don't care. they got what they wanted.

so, when you start again a thread on pvp players, think again how elegant pve players can be.

kind regards,

Makkert

Lol, you would be surprised.

Those experiences of yours....

- Rage quits are pretty much universal
- leaching is a new bot tactic(or human tactic, either way you can't control it)
- loner's syndrome has been there since day one on both sides of the water
- Now that was bad luck. But usually you find a "Bonus" group for something like that. Asking about the Bonus ahead of time slims the chance of not getting it.

Wow. Somebody who still thinks there is a difference between "PvP'ers" and "PvE'ers". There isn't one. Almost everyone who plays PvP plays PvE alot aswell.

There are, of course, so many people who came from World of Warcraft see anyone who plays PvP as "the big jock that wants to PK me!!" and staunchly refuse to take part in it.

I personally haven't seen a thread made by a "PvP only person" in 10 months. I have, however, seen about 12 "PvE only people are opressed by PvP only people!" threads.

I mean, geeze, are you still that hot over things that happend 10 months ago?

I do RA, TA, HA, GvG, farming, elite missions, regular missions, and quests. I think anyone who has played this game for more than 2 months does aswell.

The people that don't like and look down on others who play a certain section of the game are a very small minority. The OP is part of a very small minority.

Go back to your croquet and polo.

I do agree with this though.