Assassin discrimination (with guide on page 2)

I wrote up an article on my msn space about GuildWars. It's a topic I'm sure had been covered in these forums already, but I would appreciate that you at least give it a read, even if you wish not to comment.

http://spaces.msn.com/hazardouswaste/

You speak the truth, but the problem is that many assasins think that they are tanks, and simply don't know how to play.

Class and Profession bias always seems to exist no matter the game. It's a safe way for people to express their bigotry.

In every game, damage classes are a dime a dozen - as the saying goes - because supply far outstrips demand. They are simple classes to play more often than not (despite everyone* - even you - thinking that their pet class is the most difficult, complex, and intricate to play), yet as their players know, they can be very intricate and rewarding as well. It's easy to operate on two completely separate planes when learning to play a fragile face-hitter.

In WoW, Hunters and Rogues have issues eerily similar to the ones I hear Assassins express. "Full on Rogues and Hunters," is a common refrain in the LFG channel. Paladins have the same sort of popularity as W/Mo and very similar stigma: they are n00bs, they only heal themselves and die with full mana bars, only 12-year olds play them, we hates them...that sort of thing.

Healers in every game are blamed for wipes, yelled at to heal (because healing spells are free, instant cast, and they are all babysitting *you*, don'tcha know), and undervalued not only by other players who resent that they need them, but also by the game mechanics themselves as often as not.

Damage = glory. Healing = thankless.

Here in Guild Wars, Rangers are damage too, and are less often needed or wanted than Warriors who can tank more easily or Necromancers who are more self-sufficient and have more pets, and so on and so forth. Elementalists are having harder times getting some missions due to the AoE changes. People think Ritualists are just pseudo-Monks with a dash of Necromancer and Ranger.

Nobody knows what Mesmers do**.

I can't express how often I'm on a team that is at LEAST half Warriors.

This is not at all to say that your issue is unfounded. It's very real. Like other classes, Assassins currently suffer from the issue of being misunderstood, most often by their own players. This leads to encounters that sour people to the point of painting in very broad strokes, much to the detriment of the entire community.

All classes are more complex than those who don't play them want to believe. All classes bring value to a team. No class should be devalued based on a bad experience with a player (note the distinction from character or class), yet they often are.

The way Assassins fight is counterintuitive to most of the other class players. The fact that it is most effective to move in and out of the fight will cause some to wonder if you're contributing while if you stand and fight, they watch you die and think you suck. I realize it's a losing proposition all around taken in that light. All you can do is educate and exercise patience.

Just know that Assassins are not alone in the community-wide derision and under-valuation. Know that as things progress, they will become more valued and appreciated, and that you have the opportunity to be at the forefront of making that happen.

Small consolation, but it's all I've got. =P


* Remember kids, this is hyperbolic.
** I kid, I kid! Sorta.

Yeah... I have a guildie that thinks he can tank on his Sin... OMG! I don't know how many times I have had to rush in for a rebirth on his butt lol.

The one thing I have to say about Sins... They should NEVER EVER go without an excellent self heal if they plan on any form of tanking!

I "can" tank with my sin but only if I have a self heal.... But I am more interested in causing conditions and knockdowns than anything else.

Assassins are cursed:

When you tank = you are a n00b
When you hit and run = you are a weak coward

Some warriors think assassins are alternative warriors which they want to beat and prove them to be weak. If you don't take 1 vs 1 with warrior, you are a coward but if you accept it and most likely die, you are a loser or n00b. You are not allowed to tank and if you don't, some bash you anyway. So what assassins should do then? Anyone care to explain?

Yes, I'm mostly talking about random arena. No one should go there but there is tons of those scums which rot GW community with their behaviour. What is the reason for all this?

Wyrmdog, I love the level of detail you put in your posts. Informative and enlightening. I did know about how hard other professions have it in GW, which is why I used the term lately.

Though now that I think about it, I probably should have used something more along the lines of "the latest uprising.."

Going on personal history, my first character was a N/R.. Not exactly the sweetest combo at the time, but I wanted both to control death and have a pet (lol.. childish to think about nowadays)

Now keep in mind I sought out no websites for build ideas, instead going for the 'I make my character my own' route. By the time I got to Perdition rock and the Ring of Fire mission, Necromancers were, to put it lightly, scoffed on. In seeing this, I changed my secondary to Ele and used nothing but artillery-based fire spells, bumping my soul reap to as high as I could.

Once people started seeing 'Soul sucking artillery LFG', people became intrigued and I got a lot more invites.

Maybe I should think about looking for a unique angle to the Assassin, instead of being a plain A/Mo.

Yall ever hear the term "think outside the box" well, in general, a majorty of the people that are in mission districts can't do this. I decided on this while im sitting in Sunjiang District waiting on a group. I've seen countless lines roling past, LF MM/SS, which is amusing considering. I rember back in the day when necros had better luck getting forced feed down a rancors throat, then getting in a group. Simply because people didn't know what they were cable of, they didn't tank, they didn't nuke like a fire ele, that is of course before the aoe nerf. People didn't know, so the necros had to suffer, now no one wants to go anywhere without one.

People have got it in their heads that only this group build works, and it cant change, nothing else will work so it has to be this way, and if you dont meet this criteria then the heck with you, you are worthless, you can't do anything.

Course, I have one cosolation, these are the people that if i see in a pvp setting, i ain't got nothing to worry about, simply because they can't think outside the box. easy kills, for easy faction, yay

A legible post with thought behind it deserves no less, and thank you.

Honestly, I think that could be crucial to changing minds. Selling a role is probably more viable than changing ideas about the class in a vaccuum. Soul-Sucking Artillery indeed.

Perhaps selling the profession's strength as a way to play bodyguard for the Monk or Ritualist and a tactical destroyer of healer mobs could help...dunno. What I do know is that with the proper mindset, virtually any group of characters with virtually any class combination used intelligently can be functional. If I hadn't inadvertently wiped my Frost Gate group last night in a moment of absent-mindedness the run we made with two W/Mo's healing would have been a fantastic tribute to this idea.

But...take out my abject stupidity and those two W/Mo's were able to show that they were more than just super-durable fighters, they could be healers, too. Granted they needed help with everyone carrying rez sigs just in case and equipping and statting a self-heal, but the point is that they did what most people insist they can't: they main healed.

In similar fashion, I'm betting you (and other creative players of Assassins) can show that the Assassin is more than appearances and popular conception makes them out to be.

ok what i have done with assassin is really simple and full of glory.i made mine a/ele. a teleporting ground aoe nuker.shadow step in and boom boom boom and if yer lucky shadow out, if not ya make a great flesh golem...fact is i can deal almost 400 points of fire in less than 2 seconds. does it kill all the enemys? no but it sure makes them squishy.........lol.and if ya REALLY want a bang work with your minnion master, hey death nova is the ultimate in glory...
at least in this build and unyeilding aura is the perfect rez.
btw your survival is improved if ya let a wammo agro 1st.

(fyi this build is called "having a blast" after a green day song,since "suicide bomber" offends people and makes ya look noobish.)

assassing are kind of finding their place as a Barrage kritical eye, thanks to rangers who showed every other class that they dont need 3 wariors and can whipe out evry hard area in the game on a ranger based team....

im sure assassins will follow the same path

assassins are fine working only in their class just as of yet 7/8 of the people who play them do it poorly, be it poor builds, positioning, or armor choices.

nice article.. seems discrimination rules everywhere unnecessarily

I usually when monk Tank-Assasins i spend half of my energy healing-protecting them. It's a nightmare. Bad business

When you hit and run = you are a good assasin.

No matter what they tell you in local or in teamchat

Actually assasins are intended to play that way. Not even to try to tank, and even less to try to kill Warrios 1-1 .

Go for the squishes. there is always several in the opposite team,and if there are 4 Wa, then your'e having a bad time.

That article was a good read, after I copy and pasted it in a MS word to make it easier to read

Assassins are a great class, in 12v12 alliance battles I seen some which don't know what they are doing, and I've seen some real kick ass ones as well, which took my helath down in seconds.

Generally Assassins suffer from what most players in the game do, they often don't know when to retreat from a losing fight. Many try to tank, which doesn't work for an Assassin, it really doesn't.

I want to build up my own Assassin, but most Pick-up groups won't even give them a chance.

Then again similar to the Mesmer, I think Assassins are better suited to PvP battles then anything PvE provides.

Wyrmdog. you complain about bigotry then explain why each stereotype is justified. Two facts:
1)Damage characters tend to draw kids and casual players with only a vague understanding of game mechanics.

2)Assassins are an "advanced class" much like mesmers or ritualists who require an attentive playing style to be as effective as other classes. I can create a straight forward healer, ranger or warrior that nearly everyone can play efficiently in normal groups, assassins require a bit more attention and have less margin of error.

It really isn't all that suprising that people don't want assassins on their team. You really don't want many assassins because they don't hold aggro, which is fine if you have one or two but is a disaster if there are more. A good warrior will go in get aggro and hold it while killing as effectively as an assassin over time. Now if you want to take out a single target in the enemy backline, an assassin will do that better than a warrior.

This isn't about bigotry, it is about people efficiently playing the game. My pugs really wants 2 healers, 2 warriors, a minion master and an interrupter leaving the over abundance of assassins 2 slots to fight over. Given a choice I'd pick against assassins since they aren't likely to be as experienced as a warrior or elem in tyria gear.

I think I have come up with a very good improvement for the assasin, Speed up the recharge on there skills. I've finally got my assasin to Harvest temple(thank god!) and I have found that after my first attack chain, I'm waiting around 10-12 seconds before I can attack again due to the long recharge times for the assasin attack skills. Take more attack skills I hear you say, then where am I going to put all my healing and energy recovery skills lol.

I take:
1 lead, 1 off hand and 1 dual attack, 1 res,1 heal,
Assasin's promise (For 5 seconds, if target foe dies, you gain 5 energy and all your skills are recharged).
Way of the lotus (For 23 seconds, the next time you hit target foe with a dual attack skill, you gain 10 Energy).
And a skill cap (lol, Only got 2 elites).

Assasin's promise is a godsend as it recharges all your skills straight away, only thing is that ou have to cast right before he dies as the target needs to die within a couple of seconds of it being cast.

The one thing I can see why people don't like to pick assasin's is the attack then run away, then run back in and out. With all the other classe's you can either tank it out or attack from range for as long as you want (until you see an enermy warrior run at you lol).

The assasin is there for surgical strikes. I suppose some people will feal that there not pulling there weight because there not attacking 24/7 during a fight, where all the other classes can (due to long range attacks i.e. staff's/bows) so they would rather take anyone else other than an assasin.

I can see there point of view, why take a risk when there are tried and tested builds out there that your familar with. That is why I think Anet made such a big mistake with the very fast leveling in factions, it didn't allow people to work there way through playing an assasin, they just throw you into the deep end as it where.

Well, that's my 2 pence as it were, I'll be glad when my assasin completes the game then I'll have oh so lot's of fun over in tyria with him, where I think she will fare a lot better than in faction's Canthra.

(This is only my opinion, so please no flaming if you don't agree 100%, you could add other suggestions though?)

Ah not really unnecessarily, because most people don't know how to play Sin. Unfortunately this ruins the experience for the minority of decent players out there.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. I was simply pointing out that yes, several classes suffer from bigotry and mistreatment based on stereotyping, bad anecdotal experiences, and misunderstanding. The point was to show that while people can justify this line of thought to themselves, it is ultimately an untenable position to maintain.

Are these really facts or are they assumptions? I assert they are assumptions (and yes, I made assumptions in my post, but I think I made it clear that's what they were - if not, please accept my apologies). They are not necessarily incorrect, but I wouldn't pass them off as fact without reference.

Well, this is where you and I will agree to disagree. While the setup you mention is safe, easy, and tested, it isn't always the most efficient. Efficiency is mutable dependent upon the setup of the mission or quest in question and should vary by excursion on that basis. Just as you vary your build from outing to outing, efficiency demands a varied team suited to the goal.

In my opinion, this is about people inventing or exaggerating issues in order to justify their intractable ideas concerning team makeup, player skill, and the value of one class over another. This is about people being made to endure the online approximation of discriminatory beliefs concerning groups of people. I make no claims that it is as destructive or divisive as real-world bigotry because we all know it isn't, but it IS a similar mindset.

I mean, if I only had a nickel for every post where someone has said something like, "Well, you must be one of the good Wammos," or "I'm not a typical Wammo." Change a few words around...how does it sound now?

Perhaps it'd be easier to swallow for some if I phrased it in a somewhat different context:

Take a grade-school playground and assume a group of children are selecting for a team to play a game. The specifics are unimportant as this is an analogy, so don't get caught up in that. What's important is what we ALL saw growing up. There is inevitably one kid - or one group of kids - that are picked last, possibly not at all. The reasons are artificial and often ridiculous.

That kid wears glasses so she couldn't be good at sports; that kid is fat so he'll be a good blocker; let's pick that one because I want to be friends...see, even those first two decisions can be flimsily justified by efficiency, yet anyone who thinks about it can see the holes in the logic behind the choice.

Assumptions can be valuable and even accurate, but there is an inherent danger in applying them too liberally.

As always, this is my opinion, and please don't take anything I've said too harshly, none of it is meant personally, and I'm not making any specific allegations about any individual's mindset. I just feel strongly that people should be tolerant and accepting and that in a game like this, an effort should be made to include as many people as possible.

Kinda hard for an assassin not to be a tank, since they do melee attacks and you'd have go fight up front. So how can you be called a noob for attacking...

towards the end of factions you start to see less profession discrimination. i was in a group today and heres what happened:
leader: 'GLF tank and assassin 6/8'
*assassin joins, a tank joins shortly after*
Tank: 'kick the assassin, get another tank'
Monk: 'I'll leave if you kick him'
Leader: 'alright, ill take half of your advice--ill get another tank'
*leader kicks tank*

apparently monk and assassin had just been in a group and the monk could vouch for how well he (the assassin) played. and indeed, he was a good assassin.

A statement like that, especially coming from a monk, is something I've been waiting to hear about. What was said there was just as powerful as the monk strike a little while ago.

Now if only people earlier in the game would figure it out..

I'm stuck groupless at the Temple if anyone wishes to give me a hand

hench it

anyways to the topic at hand

It also boils down that most players want to get in groups rather then start there own group. When i read your article you were talking about trying to join groups but you never metioned starting your own. Nothing wrong with this but people that start a group no matter the class get people wanting to join. When i played through with my monk i get tons of blind invites like always but i would never join a group i felt had a bad set up. You also have to remember players join with what they know works. Players know that you can get through the entire PvE game with a basic build with Tanks, necros, monks, ele and whatever else to fill the last spot. This basic cookie cutter build works throughout the entire game both chapters. The debate that every class has something to offer is mute because most players know this but know that these basic easy classes to play can get the job done no problem. Assassins have it bad i agree but look at the Mesmer players. I still say these players have it alot harder to get in groups then any other class. I disagree with what you said also about assassins being the hardest to play as i still think the Mesmer is. Most players don't know what they do so they sit on the bench.

One of the characters i took through factions was my Tyrian monk and honestly i didn't really have a hard time healing assassins. Yes alot of them in fact most of the ones i grouped with did stay in the aggro and take alot of hits but i never really had a problem healing them. Yeah alot of them died but whatever i didn't care no stress or anything usually got through missions no problem.

My advice to everyone that has a hard time getting in groups if it takes you longer then 5 minutes to find one start your own and if you don't want to do that hench it. To be honest you are not the first person to say what you said and will not be the last. The assassin discrimination is here and it is what it is.

Everybody wants to be a ninja, most people have no idea what that means...

I leave it to the people who do, and happily play my spell casters instead.


Tanks have their role - there's got to be somebody who gets to spend half the game dead, and you don't want it to be you. So you get a tank. In DnD this was the guy who was rolling up a new PC every game session, so that I never had to.

Rogues, Assassins, etc... are handy to deliver that critical blow before your tank goes down. A lot of DnD people want the tank there, but most of them start to realize that the rogue is more valuable in the long run.

And tanks have a very quickly diminishing return. Their only purpose is to soak up damage so you don't have to - and you only need one guy to do that if you can position him right and keep the aggression on him. A second tank just means one less person with actual versatility. But a team of 'strike ninja's' works great if you know how to use it and you have that rube, er tank, in there to take the attention away from you.

It happens...
Groups will take you in but ya will get the groups with the snobby monks that dont.. Ya just need to get over it really... Oh and the title "L" is stupid

Threads of this nature have been made since the beginning of Guild Wars. (Note: This is part joke, part commentary.)

A Guide to Classes of Guild Wars:

Warriors: They just run up to enemies and die while shouting "HEAL MOR j00 MONK YOU ALL SUCK" (ragequits)

Rangers: Sit in the back of the fight and occasionally go to the bathroom. For the trapper variety, see warrior description. Rangers with pets just aggro everything onto you for fun.

Elementalists: Rain fire down on enemies because there aren't any other elements, and then run out of energy and scream for everyone to wait since they didn't bring any energy skills along.

Monks: They stand there and watch you die, then resurrect you just to watch you die again. They especially never try to keep Warriors or Assassins alive, because they have infinite energy.

Necromancers: Kill everything with minions until they lag out and their minions go berserk and kill you. Any necro without minions is a n00b.

Mesmers: Nobody actually knows what a mesmer really does. It appears they like to dance and wave their staff/wand around and make purple sparkles.

Ritualists: They are monks who failed monk school. They're terrible at everything, and not as good as monks.

Assassins: They rush in and try to tank the entire world while screaming "NARUTO!!!111" Or, they hit one enemy with one combo and then run away because they're out of energy since they suck.

The probrem of assasin / mesmer are the fact the group of enemy organization are just terrible.

why take a assasin or mesmer to kill/shotdown a target when you can just nuke / barrage / minion / SS / trap all the enemy?

A area where all the mob group have a good amout of healing (most of healing enemy build sux at most) , protection , damage (like a pvp build) will make those profession more desiderable...

Don't know what happened there. (Topic glitch?) It's been sorted out now for those that didn't notice.

Hate to break it to you, but warriors aren't bad damage dealers at all. In fact, they dish out the highest damage-per-second in the game. Assassins are great at spiking with their combos, but they aren't built for constant upfront in-your-face combat like a warrior.

The problem is most assassins are clueless. It's oh so slowly improving yes, but it's still really painful to monk for a PUG assassin. Due to the general shortage of monks and their necessity to a group they can dictate the group (as your anecdote shows), and most of the time they don't want to take the risk of having an idiot assassin, which is a reasonably high probability.

Having personally copped a whole heap of abuse from assassins who don't have a clue how to play their class while monking, I've refused to take assassins who I don't know. I know there are good assassins out there who are unfairly taking the discrimination, but my sample of PUG assassins says that the majority have been mediocre, a significant minority have been horrible (talkign 1/3 here) and I've never seen a good PUG assassin. I'm sorry for the discrimination, but it will end when the assassin class as a whole starts playing seriously. I know what the class can do, I've had them in my builds extensively for GVG, it's just the people playing them don't.

I love my assassin. Love it but I don't love trying to get a group. When I am in a group I do my best at fighting. My main reason to posting here is to let other players know that if you see an assassin doing well, compliment them bc it is hard to constantly dish out good amount of dmg, get out of fight before dieing and go back in. Those assassins doing the right job, are working hard in-order to be effective in a group. Help them out and put them in friend list so they have players to play with when guildies arent on.

Like most of the people say poor assassins make it hard on good to get into a group. When i was gettin my characters thru the game which i hench'd most of it knowing alot of people were gonna make assassins and to avoid being stuck with a bunch of assassins that didnt know what they doing i took the hench.When i did actually join a group for a mission which was rare we had a assassin or 2,the following happened after assassins ran in front of the warriors they got all the aggro on them monks strain there energy on them run out and boom you have dead assassins.Assassin "omg you stupid monks heal me you see me dying" Assassin left the game.We'd go on and get the mission/quest done easier then having that assassin in the party. This happened to me many many times now having horrible experience with every assassin i had in a group why should i give another assassin a chance. If you have a assassin and having a hard time finding a party you should turn back to the community and blame the ones that did the above for ruining it for everyone after them.

Lol! Now that was funny . Good one unienaule. "NARUTO!!!!1111111".

The extent of every class depends directly on the players and not the class itself, any class can be amazing if the player behind it knows what their doing.

so stop saying rank does not mean jack in pve (insert tiger emote here).

I'm finding assassin discrimination is dying down. But you still get the occasional group who will kick you because theres a warrior who wants to join instead even though they already have 2 warriors. Meh.

I remember just a few weeks ago about an assassin who was group leader who was saying he was a tank and I was trying to explain to him the futility of his argument. Needless to say he was completely annihilated by the first group on vizunah square and he then went on to rage quit because the 1 monk in the party, (he said we only needed one!), couldn't keep him alive over the excessive amount of afflicted soul explosions, (all MY handy-work ).

My point is that getting rid of assassin hate is up to both groups, the assassins and the people who don't want them.

ps. ASSASSINS CAN'T TANK

luckily ive never had this problem with assassins in ft aspenwood, the tank is usually the one that starts running, he starts running aroudn the time falling spider finally hits him lol, but i see what you mean

Tank? Damage Dealer? Spell Shutdown? The problem with assasins is nobody is quite sure what they are supposed to do. They just don't seem to fit the cookie-cutter-builds. Here is each classes job:

WARRIOR - Tank
MONK - Healer, Protection, Bonder
ELEMENTLIST - Nuker (Damage Dealer)
NECRO - MM, SS, Order, Tainted
RANGER - Interupter, Barrager, Trapper
MESMER - Interupter, Shutdown (can kill bosses with ease)
RITUALIST - Sprit Spammer, Healer (not as good at it as monks though)
ASSASIN - ?

Yet what is the assasins job?

Most of the posters here seem very.. simplistic in their "yeah people just need to learn how to play" attitude.

Players seem to forget the re-balancing and skill re-working in order to make
certain playstyles more usefull, for example the Necro situation was only brought about by skills being redone or 'tweaked' in order to make them more desirable, that's how the MM became usefull.

It's not as if players didn't work out the potential of each class very early on, they did, trouble was the skills didn't allow for diversity, and thats exactly the same situation with the Assassin now, until certain elites and skills and maybe even crit strikes gets another look, then my Assassin and pve Assassins looking for invites will be rejected by those in the know.

You are not going to discover an uber assassin build at this stage and you are not going to change peoples minds, until Anet pulls their fingers out.

Spiker?

Sounds as good a description as any.

It's most interesting to watch ritualists as compared to assassins. Rit is a relatively unpopular class to play compared to assassins ( in early factions, assassins were like half the characters youd' find). A rit can almost always find a group, and has almsot no criticism ever. As logn as a rit doenst pull aggro or go afk, no one seems to really care what they do or don't do.

People mostly don't understand what ritualists do, much better than they understand assasins, unless the rit is acting in a monk type role ( in which case, most people are very sympathetic, much as they are to a monking elementalist). The difference, I suppose is that a mysterious rit is assuemd to be doing soemthing useful that they dont understand, as opposed to perpetually dying, so at worst, a bad rit is worthless, whereas a bad assassin makes your monks ( and healer rits) quit.
I feel for assassins, but unless some one i knwo can vouch for them, I won't pug with them, that was doubly true when I was actign as a healer rit.

You know it's bad when this morning in my group I heard the following:

Jamei (Healer Henchman) - Kick that wanna be tank newb or else I am leaving.

Danika (Healer Henchman) - Panaku, you are not welcome here. Caleb please kick him and bring Lo Sha (Illusion Henchman), it has been a month since Factions release and Lo Sha has yet to be invited to a single party!

I tried to refute their opinions, but in the end I succumbed to the peer pressure and screamed "NO BooN NinGaz in my Grupz~1!!111!" and Panaku went back to isolation.
____

On a serious note, I have had several assassins in my groups that were excellent. Unfortunately, they are overshadowed by the majority of assassins who have required more healing than a makeshift hospital in Kabul.