It's you who are unskilled, period. I don't mean the assasins. I completed the whole game with henchies, when I was on my assassin.
I have since run my mesmer through and my warrior, and I have to tell you most of you people are unskilled, period. It's not the assassin who are unskiled its you. I went through this game(factions) faster with my assassin( and the henchies) WAY faster than I did with a mesmer and warrior.
Sin hate is a joke. It's not the assassins that are unskillful, it's you, you just suck.
Here, Here its about time this was said
The problem with assassins
just rude
BigTru
You do realize how many people (other professions) have gone through the entire game with henchman, no?
Assassins bring nothing special to the table. If they do deal more damage than a warrior, it's marginal, and not worth giving up a spot that could be filled by a tank.
Assassins bring nothing special to the table. If they do deal more damage than a warrior, it's marginal, and not worth giving up a spot that could be filled by a tank.
lord_shar
Hmm, smells like a troll who hasn't been to Urgoz's Warrens or the Deep 
Claymore
Ummm you may think its about time that this was said, but the fact is it has been said already, months ago.
Just to let you know, the band wagon left.
Just to let you know, the band wagon left.
WildmouseX
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTru
You do realize how many people (other professions) have gone through the entire game with henchman, no?
Assassins bring nothing special to the table. If they do deal more damage than a warrior, it's marginal, and not worth giving up a spot that could be filled by a tank. ummmm yes it is... the tanks job is to stand toe to toe with their tanks and just sit there swinging his weapon forever. the assassins job is to run around in the back lines and take out casters, or the wars that rush your casters.
without an assassin, the tank has to break his agro and drag more foes into his caster lines to save them from being killed by the guy he let run by. furthermore, he has to stand there pounding on war's while getting smacked around by the other sides casters, if he runs at their casters he opens his casters up to allthe guys he should be fighting.
they play 2 compleately different roles, a tank can't fill an assassins position anymore then the assassin can tank. knowing the difference between the two is how you put together an effective group.
Assassins bring nothing special to the table. If they do deal more damage than a warrior, it's marginal, and not worth giving up a spot that could be filled by a tank. ummmm yes it is... the tanks job is to stand toe to toe with their tanks and just sit there swinging his weapon forever. the assassins job is to run around in the back lines and take out casters, or the wars that rush your casters.
without an assassin, the tank has to break his agro and drag more foes into his caster lines to save them from being killed by the guy he let run by. furthermore, he has to stand there pounding on war's while getting smacked around by the other sides casters, if he runs at their casters he opens his casters up to allthe guys he should be fighting.
they play 2 compleately different roles, a tank can't fill an assassins position anymore then the assassin can tank. knowing the difference between the two is how you put together an effective group.
DeathWise
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTru
You do realize how many people (other professions) have gone through the entire game with henchman, no?
Assassins bring nothing special to the table. If they do deal more damage than a warrior, it's marginal, and not worth giving up a spot that could be filled by a tank. Really, just shut it. I'm getting fed up with people constantly claiming Assassins don't bring anything to the table. Why did you think Arena Net created the character, for no reason whatsoever? Think again.
Assassin actually do bring something special to the table. First off, their damage output higher than those of warriors. This is mainly due to the fact that Assassins have to do combo's, which require a certain sequence of attacks which in the end results in a very powerful combo. Why do you think Warriors would have higher damage if they aren't even obligated to execute Attack Skills in some order. Warriors do not need to perform a combo, which obviously makes their damage output a tad bit lower. I have played Assassin vs. Warrior often enough to know that Assassins are superior. (this is different in PvE though, since they serve other purposes) Also, it greatly depends on percentages, namely Critical Hits and Double Attacks. (note to also take a higher attack speed into consideration) Thus damage output is higher to that of a Warrior when correctly used.
Secondly, Assassin have hunting and chasing abilities superior to any other class. The have a many easy crippling abilities such as Leaping Mantis Sting, Caltrops, Crippling Dagger, etc. And while chasing a foe, you can still perform and maintain your maximum damage output. (perhaps even more if an opponent is running with his back turned to you due to the increase of Critical Hits) Ofcourse any other class has crippling abilities, but another aspect that distinguishes the Assassin from every other class is their unique ability to perform a wide variety over TP's. With this, they can easily outrun any opponent in hunting and chasing which is much more lethal than any other class.
In PvE however, places are much more crowded and filled with mobs. Obviously it will become harder for Assassins to do their job correctly. But this absolutely does not make it impossible, especially not if you spend time with this class and get to know it and learn how to use it.
Assassins are a very versatile class that can perform diverse actions. I admit they are more limited (especially in PvE) than Warriors because of their higher defense and health, but their damage output is higher and their chasing abilities are superior which makes Assassins unique and actually do makes them able to bring something special to the table.
Assassins bring nothing special to the table. If they do deal more damage than a warrior, it's marginal, and not worth giving up a spot that could be filled by a tank. Really, just shut it. I'm getting fed up with people constantly claiming Assassins don't bring anything to the table. Why did you think Arena Net created the character, for no reason whatsoever? Think again.
Assassin actually do bring something special to the table. First off, their damage output higher than those of warriors. This is mainly due to the fact that Assassins have to do combo's, which require a certain sequence of attacks which in the end results in a very powerful combo. Why do you think Warriors would have higher damage if they aren't even obligated to execute Attack Skills in some order. Warriors do not need to perform a combo, which obviously makes their damage output a tad bit lower. I have played Assassin vs. Warrior often enough to know that Assassins are superior. (this is different in PvE though, since they serve other purposes) Also, it greatly depends on percentages, namely Critical Hits and Double Attacks. (note to also take a higher attack speed into consideration) Thus damage output is higher to that of a Warrior when correctly used.
Secondly, Assassin have hunting and chasing abilities superior to any other class. The have a many easy crippling abilities such as Leaping Mantis Sting, Caltrops, Crippling Dagger, etc. And while chasing a foe, you can still perform and maintain your maximum damage output. (perhaps even more if an opponent is running with his back turned to you due to the increase of Critical Hits) Ofcourse any other class has crippling abilities, but another aspect that distinguishes the Assassin from every other class is their unique ability to perform a wide variety over TP's. With this, they can easily outrun any opponent in hunting and chasing which is much more lethal than any other class.
In PvE however, places are much more crowded and filled with mobs. Obviously it will become harder for Assassins to do their job correctly. But this absolutely does not make it impossible, especially not if you spend time with this class and get to know it and learn how to use it.
Assassins are a very versatile class that can perform diverse actions. I admit they are more limited (especially in PvE) than Warriors because of their higher defense and health, but their damage output is higher and their chasing abilities are superior which makes Assassins unique and actually do makes them able to bring something special to the table.
Priest Of Sin
<--Message Edited Out Due To Words Not Fit For This World-->
Barkroot Bonecrunch
To me assasins are a bunch of ninja wannabes, and they dont add anything better to the game. There armour is weaker than warriors and so is there damage. That is my opinion flame me all you want i dont care but this will be my opinion and always will be.
fallot
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathWise
Their damage output is not higher, their ability to do large amounts of damage immediately (as opposed to a warrior who must charge up adrenaline) is their one unique trait.
As for chasing abilities, there is nothing inherent in the profession that makes them better at catching up to fleeing targets. Both Warriors and Assassins have skills that perform these functions equally well. If anything, you could say a hammer warrior makes a better "chaser".
Quote: Originally Posted by DeathWise their unique ability to perform a wide variety over TP's. You must have got Chapter 3 early. Teleport skills are extremely limited. There is only one you can use to good effect and the variety leaves a lot to be desired.
Quote: Originally Posted by DeathWise Really, just shut it. I'm getting fed up with people constantly claiming Assassins don't bring anything to the table. Why did you think Arena Net created the character, for no reason whatsoever? Think again. They do bring something to the table (which I have mentioned). However, what they bring is neither wanted nor needed in PvE (higher end PvE, you could do all of the missions with 7 henches easily, no one refutes that).
Quote:
This is a little misleading. Assassins do not have the highest melee damage, that is still reserved for warriors. While it is true that the Assassin will kill the first monster much, much quicker than a Warrior, this does not hold true for the rest of the mobs. Once a warrior has built up sufficient adrenaline, the Assassins advantage disappears (this is assuming that the warrior is built for damage, and not some lame aggro holding stance tank).
The Assassin cannot move on to another enemy, as he must wait for his combo to recharge. Similarly, the warrior must build up adrenaline after using his attack skills. So the advantage the Assassin has is in the beginning of the fight, when the Warrior has no adrenaline. In the simplest possible terms, the Assassin's damage is frontloaded, whereas the warrior's requires a little time to begin.
Furthermore, the Warrior is suited to staying in the front of the group and dealing damage consistently due to high armor, an advantage the Assassin does not share. Keep in mind that this is all PvE I'm talking about, as I mentioned in the beginning of the post.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by DeathWise
But this absolutely does not make it impossible
You've pinpointed the problem yourself. Yes, it is not impossible. However, it requires more effort and maintainence than any other profession. This leaves no good reason for a serious PvE group to take you for anything. How many places have you seen where people have asked for an Assassin in their party ? Their unpopularity in higher end PvE is not because everyone is stupid, its because they just aren't made for that kind of play. Quote:
no i havent died alot, i have leveled to lvl 20 with 4 or 5 deaths which all occured in the same sopt because our team was 2/6 and we were to stuburn to give up near end. i deleted it because i got bored of having to do the everything with henchman, while i can just play something more fun like my nice old ranger.
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rangers have to have time to set their little trap area up, something most groups don't give time for. makeing them ineffective at defending their casters. and again, the ranger needs to helping the caster press the fight to the enemy caster line, not wasteing their skills on a lone rusher and again when el's and mes' bringing their melee defense's, it reduces the ammout of real attacks that they can bring...irrationaly being in favor of gimiping the entire party so you don't have to bring an assassin that will allow everyone to maximise their abilities is prejudice, and fairly stupid to boot.
a trap is a 2-3 secs to lay out. well, if you go vs IWAY, just use throw dirt or something. |
hello! casters have to know how to kite and not just stand around. if what you got in a team is : a crazy rushing warior, "I'm too tough to kite" nuker and mesmer, suicidal necro, and a desperate to heal those idiots monk, then im sorry but its a terrible team and an assassin will not make a diffrence. clearly an assassin that jumps forward in the middle of the opposite team will most likely die..... but we said we have casters to do the damaGE. an assassin that hangs out in the backlines waiting for a "foe" to run in is even more useless for te reasons i mentioned above. I do play with assassins alot, mostly my guildies and friends, but if its a PUG ill choose a ranger or a caster instead anytime. Quote:
A little OT but a Barrage ranger with the right spec will easily outdamage any nuker and not only because of mob scatter.
Quote: |
The Assassin cannot move on to another enemy, as he must wait for his combo to recharge. Similarly, the warrior must build up adrenaline after using his attack skills. So the advantage the Assassin has is in the beginning of the fight, when the Warrior has no adrenaline. In the simplest possible terms, the Assassin's damage is frontloaded, whereas the warrior's requires a little time to begin.
Furthermore, the Warrior is suited to staying in the front of the group and dealing damage consistently due to high armor, an advantage the Assassin does not share. Keep in mind that this is all PvE I'm talking about, as I mentioned in the beginning of the post.
Quote:
Not necesarily true. A skill like Assassin's Promise can keep the killing going for a good long time, if used properly. Any assassin who know's what he's doing and does not use Assassin's Promis will often want to bring some other skill that lets him execute a full combo anyways, even if other skills are recharging. For example, someone who uses jagged strike--> iron palm--> falling spider--> twisting fangs could bring along Fox Fangs so they could still get a lead, offhand, dual combo in, without being forced to wait for Iron Palm to recharge.|
Originally Posted by Shred_Dread
So, to all you assassin-haters out there, before you criticize them, make sure you know something about them.
Not to be rude, but you should take some of this advice yourself. Blind faith is just as bad as blind criticism, if not worse. It is better to understand the advantages and failings of the class, this doesn't detract from their enjoyment in any way. I like playing with my Assassin, I've had no problems staying alive. However, I understand and accept that what this class offers is unnecessary in hardcore PvE.
Note to everyone: Now, I've been thinking. Is there a place in PvE right now where Assassins are useful ? What I was looking for was a quest or a mission, where you must avoid mobs (by teleportation or running) and kill a lone target quickly and efficiently. When I brought my Assassin over to Lion's Arch, it struck me that Villany of Galrath is just this kind of quest. A properly geared level 20 Assassin, leaving from the Temple of Ages, should be able to reach Kessex Peak with ease. After that, when he nears the ledge where Galrath waits, an Assassin could use Aura of Displacement (or any other skill) to teleport up to the small group close to him (without passing through the Verata mob). After that, it should be simple to surgically take out Galrath... without killing a single mob on the way. That would be the perfect example of "Assassination" in PvE. Now I plan to do this myself but I'd appreciate if someone else would like to try as I'm not always able to log on to GW for extended periods of time nowadays. If the attempt is successful, it will prove that the problem is not with the Assassins, but with PvE. Content geared specifically towards Assassins would make PvE-ing with them much more enjoyable and rewarding. I'm thinking along the lines of an Assassination quest chain, with a similar setup to Villany: taking out a single target avoiding multiple groups of enemies. Fu Manchu
A warrior could also reach a single target alone whilst using speed boosts and stances/shouts, so you would still be left with people wondering if they should take a Warrior instead. So could a Necro.. Mes..
It's all been done to death. fallot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fu Manchu
A warrior could also reach a single target alone whilst using speed boosts and stances/shouts, so you would still be left with people wondering if they should take a Warrior instead. So could a Necro.. Mes..
True, but an Assassin (or Assassin secondary, but I'd rather not go there just yet) could do it easier, faster, and with minimal input from the rest of the group without being built too specifically to handle that situation. That sounds like a slot-worthy role. This can't really be discussed any further, if someone attempts it and succeeds then the point is proven, otherwise not.
Fu Manchu
Thats right Fallot. A secondary will do just as well.
Honestly, all these posts about how players don't use their Assassins right are starting to irk me slightly. You can count me under those who wish further improvements to be made before i'm satisfied with the Primary class.
Doomlord_Slayermann
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fu Manchu
You can count me under those who wish further improvements to be made before i'm satisfied with the Primary class.
Of course primary Assassins have their gaping flaws. Dagger Mastery is almost completely useless in PvP because of the combo reset issue. Critical Strikes is not that great a primary attribute when more damage can come from a Warrior skill (basic example: Galrath Slash) than a critical hit from that same Warrior.
Assassins definitely could use a few improvements.
Shred Dread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallot
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fallot
Not to be rude, but you should take some of this advice yourself. Blind faith is just as bad as blind criticism, if not worse. It is better to understand the advantages and failings of the class, this doesn't detract from their enjoyment in any way.
Once again, not to be rude, but I understand the advantages and failings of the class as well as anyone. If you read what I said in context, I was not saying the assassin is always perfect, or even saying anything positive about the class at all, I was saying that before making judgements on the class, you should know something about it, because some of the people on this thread have shown that they do not.
WildmouseX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maria The Princess
what can i say? good job unless you were maping out like the "survivor" title seekers if i was trying to get the survivor title, i would have cleared the character after the first death. the first three deaths were very early and where i figured out how to keep away from dmg and where she fought best at. 1 was cuz i drew agro in the second mission from our war dropping. and the remainings were all sacrifices on afflicted monk death nova's to turn the tide of hard fights. i never claimed the assassin was essental to defending the casters, however he is more equipted to do it then they are, and it makes the battles go way smoother and quicker. - and the stragety doesn't leave the sin standing around waiting to defend them, that's his first priority when they rush at the start of battle.
Bio-Flame
Disclamer: I've played all of Tyria first as an Ele, then again was a Warrior, then again as a Monk.
I've played through Cantha as an Assassin and then as a Monk again. In PvP I fill the role that is needed in my guild. I play either as an Ele, Warrior, Monk, Assassin and Mesmer. Most of the time lately I've been playing GvG matches as an Assassin. Last but not the least, I have no "prefered" class, I defend no class over another. I am going to be as objective as I can here. Ok, that being said let me be as blunt as I can: Assassins are NOT required in a PvE group. PvE NEEDS at least 1 Warrior, 1 Monk and 1 damage dealer (throw in a Nuker, SS, MM or Barrager here) to be minimally efficient. The point here is "efficient"! Obviously, one could go without Monks, just rezzing and going to the fight again. Not efficient though. One could go without a damage dealer and take ages to kill anything. It could be done but it wouldn't be efficient. Assassins don't fill any of these roles. They don't tank, they can't heal, they can't deal massive AoE damage. So they aren't usually requested for teams. Does this mean that they are weak? No, of course not. Does this mean that Assassins have no role? No, of course not. Some people say that Assassins don't bring anything to a group. That's misleading I think. Yes, assassins DO bring some stuff to a group. Sadly, due to the AI in GWs, the only proffessions you "need" are Tanks, Monks, AoE damage dealers. Assassins do bring stuff to a party but if you think in terms of "efficiency", there are some other professions that would be more "productive" on the team. Remember that you can only take 8 party members. If we could take 100 party members, maybe we could use Assassins. Alas, we can't take 100 people on a team. I think it's very much alike our skill selection on our Characters. We have LOADS of skills, but we can only take 8. The 9th skill, the one that's left out of the bar, it is not necessarily a "bad" skill neither is it useless. It's just that the other 8 skills are "better" to what we need to do right now. Assassins are good, they do their jobs very very well. PvP they can fulfill their jobs perfectly. PvE they can also do their jobs, thing is their jobs aren't really "needed" in PvE. That's my 2 cents on the matter. PS - When I say PvE, I mean High-end PvE. PS 2 - Btw, I think the only Assassin that's good enough to be considred is the one who uses the Golden Phoenix Strike + Horns of the Ox + Falling Spider + Twisting Fangs combo, with Aura of Displacement. The crippling Assassins are nice and all, but they are way way worse than the one I've mentioned above. As most people said already, assassins go in, kill and get out. "Go in and get out" can only be done with Aura of Displacement these days. The fastest, most reliable "kill" combo is the GPS+HoO+FS+TF combo. I would think that ANET would have done a more diversified character but so far that's what an assassin should be (if he wants to be as "poweful" as he can possibly be). One can argue if ANET should increase the other combos available to assassins but as the class stands today, there's one combo that simply outperforms all others - it's the one I've mentioned above. Sadly this is the truth. Richie
Woooooooooo there slow down, honestly, there is a PROBLEM with assasins? wow....I beat the game, never noticed. My guild will let me take a assasin in urgoz or deep as protection for the people who let oni slip by or mabey as a critical barrager. There is no significant problem to assasins. No characters have significant problems. Assasins cant tank, good they arent suppossed to either, warriors cant cast echo meteor shower, good they shouldnt either, Monks cant effectivly use flourish, good they shouldnt, 55 Necros and Mesmers and even RT's cant use Spellbreaker for easy dual uw, good they shouldnt.
Heck, assasins have more armour than ANY casters so there is a problem if a monk says "o i dont want the assasin" assasin says "im crit bar. no loss" monk says "nono wth is crit bar. another nub assasin wanab build? u die WAYYY to ezy dawg" Me (a monk) i leave i dont wana be stuck with a echo arcane echo mending monk..... Richie
Woooooooooo there slow down, honestly, there is a PROBLEM with assasins? wow....I beat the game, never noticed. My guild will let me take a assasin in urgoz or deep as protection for the people who let oni slip by or mabey as a critical barrager. There is no significant problem to assasins. No characters have significant problems. Assasins cant tank, good they arent suppossed to either, warriors cant cast echo meteor shower, good they shouldnt either, Monks cant effectivly use flourish, good they shouldnt, 55 Necros and Mesmers and even RT's cant use Spellbreaker for easy dual uw, good they shouldnt.
heck, assasins have more armour than ANY casters so there is a problem if a monk says "o i dont want the assasin" assasin says "im crit bar. no loss" monk says "nono wth is crit bar. another nub assasin wanab build? u die WAYYY to ezy dawg" Me (a monk) i leave i dont wana be stuck with a echo arcane echo mending monk..... Grammar
I'm not taking sides in this, because both the pro-sin and anti-sin camps have valid points.
But I have a question (sorry to stray from the topic a bit)... Why do I keep hearing about Assassins outdamaging Warriors? It is my understanding that a damage-dealing Warrior will out-DPS an Assassin over a sustained period of time (not sure about spike). The longer the period of time, the greater the Warrior's DPS advantage will be. The reasons are obvious: Warriors swing almost non-stop while Assassins move around, shadow step, retreat & re-enter, try to shake aggro, etc. I have a hard time believing that an Assassin will out-DPS a damage-dealing Warrior in a battle that lasts more than 30 seconds, and especially a battle that lasts 60 seconds or longer. As I undersand it, Warriors are still the DPS kings. Assassins on the other hand, are more about strategic targeting & attacks, spikes, and maneuverability. Anyone have any empirical research results they can throw my way to either prove/disprove what appears to be blatantly obvious in the game (at least to me and most of the GW community)?
Doomlord_Slayermann
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grammar
I'm not taking sides in this, because both the pro-sin and anti-sin camps have valid points.
But I have a question (sorry to stray from the topic a bit)... Why do I keep hearing about Assassins outdamaging Warriors? It is my understanding that a damage-dealing Warrior will out-DPS an Assassin over a sustained period of time (not sure about spike). The longer the period of time, the greater the Warrior's DPS advantage will be. The reasons are obvious: Warriors swing almost non-stop while Assassins move around, shadow step, retreat & re-enter, try to shake aggro, etc. I have a hard time believing that an Assassin will out-DPS a damage-dealing Warrior in a battle that lasts more than 30 seconds, and especially a battle that lasts 60 seconds or longer. As I undersand it, Warriors are still the DPS kings. Assassins on the other hand, are more about strategic targeting & attacks, spikes, and maneuverability. Anyone have any empirical research results they can throw my way to either prove/disprove what appears to be blatantly obvious in the game (at least to me and most of the GW community)? It's classic risk-and-reward balance. Warriors are guaranteed to do high DPS, but the Assassin can potentially do more DPS if and only if they get all the way through their combos every time. This doesn't happen often, but it's painful for the target when it does. I don't think you really need empirical data to see that. Kijik Oni Hanryuu
Wow read the entire thing, lotsa chuckles and a whole lot more thank gods thanks to the sin defenders. To the anti-sin guys, I would love to take on any of yer best chars and smoke them just to snub you, I would also like to take you through any mission of your choice and show you how I can rip apart any PvE mob. To the defenders, thank you so much guys the sins need good defenders for their use. I have to agree with grammar in some ways about a sin comparing damage to a tank, tanks do hold out longer, but I have seen a tank taking a lloooooong time to defeat one enemy 1v1 but this has been said. I do disagree with him though a sin can deal out more DPS if he knows how to keep up stances and enchants that make it reaalllly hard to hit him along with keeping up skills that increase crits. Also if it works in PvP I can make it work in PvE, the AoD+GPS+HoO+FS+TF combo, it got me through the last five missions of the game or so, by jumpuing to anything that wasnt near anyone and annihalating it before anyone could evenm get near it, I also worked as a boss killer, then I took on a 6 skill combo stance killer for shiro, much fun knocking him out of his deadliest stance and then wailing on him. I make this challenge if anyone sees my sin Kirin Hanryuu in game, I dare you to either fight me or fight with me. That's the end of my coordinated blabber.
P.S. where do you anti-sin guys get off? Coming to OUR boards and telling us WE suck, serves ya right that ya came here and screwing with us sins and got slapped right back to the dirt(just like what happens to anyone who tries to take a sin on in game), have a nice nap JimmyDean
Quote:
Originally Posted by just rude
It's you who are unskilled, period. I don't mean the assasins. I completed the whole game with henchies, when I was on my assassin.
I have since run my mesmer through and my warrior, and I have to tell you most of you people are unskilled, period. It's not the assassin who are unskiled its you. I went through this game(factions) faster with my assassin( and the henchies) WAY faster than I did with a mesmer and warrior. Sin hate is a joke. It's not the assassins that are unskillful, it's you, you just suck. Here, Here its about time this was said That about sums it up imo. If you're having trouble staying alive on your assassin, it's most likely because you aren't making full use of the skills given to you, or you just plain suck and should make a warrior. Concerning the comparison between assassin damage and warrior damage, I think the assassin excels because he can start off with a spike and apply conditions, while a warrior must charge his adrenaline for his spike. So, for spiking, assassins are best. For raw dps in an extended fight, a warrior is best because his weapons do more damage, and he wont die if you sit in combat. Assassins need to be played with a different mindset for pve and pvp. If you want to sit up front the entire time dealing damage and holding aggro, play a warrior. But assassins dont do that; they're just not built for it. |
