The problem with assassins

Quote: Originally Posted by gobla

After reading through this thread, I began to formulate my defense for the assassin, then I realized that I don't need to. Those individuals that are flaming and spouting their hate for the class obviously are not open minded enough to consider the fact that just because they don't like the class, or can't play the class, that there are those that can. The assassin is very role specific, while there have been some very creative builds to increase the flexibility of this class, the fact remains that they are meant for one role, hit and run.
We all know that other classes can perform other roles than what they were intended for, the assassin is just not one of them.
You folks need to get a sense of reality here, if you don't like the class fine, don't play it, if you think the class is a liability fine don't PUG with us, doesn't mean the class suxs.
As for PvP, I have watched some of the top ranked guilds run assassins in their battles and they are damn effective, why? cause they know the class and designed a build around the purpose of the class.
The same arguments have gone on about other classes as well, everyone saying their preffered class is better because... , point is everyone has a favorite, keep your criticism to yourself cause your own class can be subjected to the same he said/she said argument that will never be resolved until the end of time.
My 2 cents worth, take it for what you will.

There's really no reason to do some of the mega-flaming I've seen on this thread. I do understand why people are getting flamed, however, because I too am annoyed with all the unreasonable assassin-haters whose posts I have been reading.

Many sin-haters have never played the profession, and really know nothing about it. Maybe they have had 1 or 2 bad experiences with n00bish assassin's in their groups, and that has turned them against the whole class. This is completely unreasonable. The assassin brings so many things to a party that no one else can. Assassins, even if they don't use shadow stepping, have the best dammage output capability for a melee class. If an assassin solos a Jade Brotherhood Knight, and a warrior solos another one at the same time, then the Assassin will easily finish his kill before the warrior. The assassin can then move on to a new enemy, while the warrior is still busy with the old one. The assassins really shine in PvP, however. On my assassin, I have taken out numerous tanks with my combos, and kill elementalists before they have a chance to pull off anything dangerous. My sin dies far less than my elementalist does, but in Alliance Battles PUGs, for some reason, my elementalist is still a more popular choice.

So, to all you assassin-haters out there, before you criticize them, make sure you know something about them. For example, I have heard criticism of the profession from someone who, with great authority, informed us that dual attacks come before offhands. Guys, next time there's an assassin in your group, pay attention to what he does. And monks, next time you criticize an assassin for needing to be healed, remember that the assassin is probably taking dmg because it's defending you casters.

Assassin has "Expose defenses" hex, which is a close alternative to necro's "Rigor Mortis", so your combos are safe if you want them to.
Touch ranger if he is alone can be quite easily killed by assassin. Every warrior who plays PvP knows that they don't stand a chance against assassins. Again if it's 1-on-1. "Shroud of Silence" and any caster is dead after that. Again if nobody helps him.
That is it, you just don't jump into fray swinging your Ceremonial daggers (even though Death Blossom is SO COOL). Stay back, pick a target, dash to it quickly, kill it even quicker and get back.
You are a delicate life taker for God's sake not a mass murderer

Quote: Originally Posted by Maria The Princess

Quote: Originally Posted by WildmouseX you are prejudice, and it's because you played the class badly and died alot. no i havent died alot, i have leveled to lvl 20 with 4 or 5 deaths which all occured in the same sopt because our team was 2/6 and we were to stuburn to give up near end. i deleted it because i got bored of having to do the everything with henchman, while i can just play something more fun like my nice old ranger.

Quote: rangers have to have time to set their little trap area up, something most groups don't give time for. makeing them ineffective at defending their casters. and again, the ranger needs to helping the caster press the fight to the enemy caster line, not wasteing their skills on a lone rusher and again when el's and mes' bringing their melee defense's, it reduces the ammout of real attacks that they can bring...irrationaly being in favor of gimiping the entire party so you don't have to bring an assassin that will allow everyone to maximise their abilities is prejudice, and fairly stupid to boot. a trap is a 2-3 secs to lay out. well, if you go vs IWAY, just use throw dirt or something.

hello! casters have to know how to kite and not just stand around. if what you got in a team is : a crazy rushing warior, "I'm too tough to kite" nuker and mesmer, suicidal necro, and a desperate to heal those idiots monk, then im sorry but its a terrible team and an assassin will not make a diffrence.

clearly an assassin that jumps forward in the middle of the opposite team will most likely die..... but we said we have casters to do the damaGE. an assassin that hangs out in the backlines waiting for a "foe" to run in is even more useless for te reasons i mentioned above.

I do play with assassins alot, mostly my guildies and friends, but if its a PUG ill choose a ranger or a caster instead anytime.

A quick foreword, the Assassin forum is meant for discussion of PvE builds etc . There is nothing wrong with Assassins in PvP, besides the unwieldy deadly arts line (even that isn't really a problem per se).

Most of PvE is basically a tank holding aggro, some monks to heal and necros, eles and rangers to deal AoE damage. In this particular setup, there is no room for Assassins or even Mesmers.

If a class cannot deal large amounts of AoE damage, tank or heal effectively then it would logically be excluded from such groups. This however, only applies to coordinated groups engaging in high-end PvE where you want the least amount of people dealing the highest amount of damage and still staying alive.

Most of the PvE content, missions and quests etc., does not require this degree of group efficiency. But the same basic principles still apply, tanks to hold aggro etc. etc. There is no real role that an Assassin plays in PvE groups besides looking cool and killing some mobs quickly. What is the point of killing a single target quickly when you can kill a large group simultaneously by pummelling them with AoE ?

How much do you really contribute to a group by killing one monster every 10-20 seconds ? Are AI monks and casters of such calibre that you will not be able to take out the rest of the group without killing them quickly (and first) ? Is this ability more useful to a party than another monk, another source of AoE damage or another tank ? Most of the time, the answer will be no (especially in later parts of the game: Ring of Fire missions, UW + FoW and elite missions in particular).

Quote: Originally Posted by Maria The Princess a ranger will never outdamage a nuker A little OT but a Barrage ranger with the right spec will easily outdamage any nuker and not only because of mob scatter.

Quote: Originally Posted by Shred_Dead The assassin brings so many things to a party that no one else can. Assassins, even if they don't use shadow stepping, have the best dammage output capability for a melee class. If an assassin solos a Jade Brotherhood Knight, and a warrior solos another one at the same time, then the Assassin will easily finish his kill before the warrior. The assassin can then move on to a new enemy, while the warrior is still busy with the old one. This is a little misleading. Assassins do not have the highest melee damage, that is still reserved for warriors. While it is true that the Assassin will kill the first monster much, much quicker than a Warrior, this does not hold true for the rest of the mobs. Once a warrior has built up sufficient adrenaline, the Assassins advantage disappears (this is assuming that the warrior is built for damage, and not some lame aggro holding stance tank).

The Assassin cannot move on to another enemy, as he must wait for his combo to recharge. Similarly, the warrior must build up adrenaline after using his attack skills. So the advantage the Assassin has is in the beginning of the fight, when the Warrior has no adrenaline. In the simplest possible terms, the Assassin's damage is frontloaded, whereas the warrior's requires a little time to begin.

Furthermore, the Warrior is suited to staying in the front of the group and dealing damage consistently due to high armor, an advantage the Assassin does not share. Keep in mind that this is all PvE I'm talking about, as I mentioned in the beginning of the post.

A warrior could also reach a single target alone whilst using speed boosts and stances/shouts, so you would still be left with people wondering if they should take a Warrior instead. So could a Necro.. Mes..

It's all been done to death.

Quote: Originally Posted by Fu Manchu

Thats right Fallot. A secondary will do just as well.

Honestly, all these posts about how players don't use their Assassins right are starting to irk me slightly.

You can count me under those who wish further improvements to be made before i'm satisfied with the Primary class.

Quote: Originally Posted by Fu Manchu

Quote: Originally Posted by Fallot The Assassin cannot move on to another enemy, as he must wait for his combo to recharge. Not necesarily true. A skill like Assassin's Promise can keep the killing going for a good long time, if used properly. Any assassin who know's what he's doing and does not use Assassin's Promis will often want to bring some other skill that lets him execute a full combo anyways, even if other skills are recharging. For example, someone who uses jagged strike--> iron palm--> falling spider--> twisting fangs could bring along Fox Fangs so they could still get a lead, offhand, dual combo in, without being forced to wait for Iron Palm to recharge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallot Not to be rude, but you should take some of this advice yourself. Blind faith is just as bad as blind criticism, if not worse. It is better to understand the advantages and failings of the class, this doesn't detract from their enjoyment in any way. Once again, not to be rude, but I understand the advantages and failings of the class as well as anyone. If you read what I said in context, I was not saying the assassin is always perfect, or even saying anything positive about the class at all, I was saying that before making judgements on the class, you should know something about it, because some of the people on this thread have shown that they do not.

Quote: Originally Posted by Maria The Princess

Disclamer: I've played all of Tyria first as an Ele, then again was a Warrior, then again as a Monk.
I've played through Cantha as an Assassin and then as a Monk again.

In PvP I fill the role that is needed in my guild. I play either as an Ele, Warrior, Monk, Assassin and Mesmer.
Most of the time lately I've been playing GvG matches as an Assassin.


Last but not the least, I have no "prefered" class, I defend no class over another. I am going to be as objective as I can here.



Ok, that being said let me be as blunt as I can: Assassins are NOT required in a PvE group.

PvE NEEDS at least 1 Warrior, 1 Monk and 1 damage dealer (throw in a Nuker, SS, MM or Barrager here) to be minimally efficient.
The point here is "efficient"! Obviously, one could go without Monks, just rezzing and going to the fight again. Not efficient though.
One could go without a damage dealer and take ages to kill anything. It could be done but it wouldn't be efficient.

Assassins don't fill any of these roles. They don't tank, they can't heal, they can't deal massive AoE damage. So they aren't usually requested for teams.

Does this mean that they are weak? No, of course not.
Does this mean that Assassins have no role? No, of course not.


Some people say that Assassins don't bring anything to a group. That's misleading I think. Yes, assassins DO bring some stuff to a group. Sadly, due to the AI in GWs, the only proffessions you "need" are Tanks, Monks, AoE damage dealers.
Assassins do bring stuff to a party but if you think in terms of "efficiency", there are some other professions that would be more "productive" on the team.
Remember that you can only take 8 party members. If we could take 100 party members, maybe we could use Assassins. Alas, we can't take 100 people on a team.


I think it's very much alike our skill selection on our Characters. We have LOADS of skills, but we can only take 8.
The 9th skill, the one that's left out of the bar, it is not necessarily a "bad" skill neither is it useless. It's just that the other 8 skills are "better" to what we need to do right now.


Assassins are good, they do their jobs very very well. PvP they can fulfill their jobs perfectly. PvE they can also do their jobs, thing is their jobs aren't really "needed" in PvE.


That's my 2 cents on the matter.


PS - When I say PvE, I mean High-end PvE.

PS 2 - Btw, I think the only Assassin that's good enough to be considred is the one who uses the Golden Phoenix Strike + Horns of the Ox + Falling Spider + Twisting Fangs combo, with Aura of Displacement.
The crippling Assassins are nice and all, but they are way way worse than the one I've mentioned above. As most people said already, assassins go in, kill and get out.
"Go in and get out" can only be done with Aura of Displacement these days. The fastest, most reliable "kill" combo is the GPS+HoO+FS+TF combo.

I would think that ANET would have done a more diversified character but so far that's what an assassin should be (if he wants to be as "poweful" as he can possibly be). One can argue if ANET should increase the other combos available to assassins but as the class stands today, there's one combo that simply outperforms all others - it's the one I've mentioned above.

Sadly this is the truth.

Woooooooooo there slow down, honestly, there is a PROBLEM with assasins? wow....I beat the game, never noticed. My guild will let me take a assasin in urgoz or deep as protection for the people who let oni slip by or mabey as a critical barrager. There is no significant problem to assasins. No characters have significant problems. Assasins cant tank, good they arent suppossed to either, warriors cant cast echo meteor shower, good they shouldnt either, Monks cant effectivly use flourish, good they shouldnt, 55 Necros and Mesmers and even RT's cant use Spellbreaker for easy dual uw, good they shouldnt.

Heck, assasins have more armour than ANY casters so there is a problem if a monk says "o i dont want the assasin" assasin says "im crit bar. no loss" monk says "nono wth is crit bar. another nub assasin wanab build? u die WAYYY to ezy dawg" Me (a monk) i leave i dont wana be stuck with a echo arcane echo mending monk.....

Woooooooooo there slow down, honestly, there is a PROBLEM with assasins? wow....I beat the game, never noticed. My guild will let me take a assasin in urgoz or deep as protection for the people who let oni slip by or mabey as a critical barrager. There is no significant problem to assasins. No characters have significant problems. Assasins cant tank, good they arent suppossed to either, warriors cant cast echo meteor shower, good they shouldnt either, Monks cant effectivly use flourish, good they shouldnt, 55 Necros and Mesmers and even RT's cant use Spellbreaker for easy dual uw, good they shouldnt.

heck, assasins have more armour than ANY casters so there is a problem if a monk says "o i dont want the assasin" assasin says "im crit bar. no loss" monk says "nono wth is crit bar. another nub assasin wanab build? u die WAYYY to ezy dawg" Me (a monk) i leave i dont wana be stuck with a echo arcane echo mending monk.....

I'm not taking sides in this, because both the pro-sin and anti-sin camps have valid points.

But I have a question (sorry to stray from the topic a bit)...

Why do I keep hearing about Assassins outdamaging Warriors?
It is my understanding that a damage-dealing Warrior will out-DPS an Assassin over a sustained period of time (not sure about spike). The longer the period of time, the greater the Warrior's DPS advantage will be. The reasons are obvious: Warriors swing almost non-stop while Assassins move around, shadow step, retreat & re-enter, try to shake aggro, etc.

I have a hard time believing that an Assassin will out-DPS a damage-dealing Warrior in a battle that lasts more than 30 seconds, and especially a battle that lasts 60 seconds or longer.
As I undersand it, Warriors are still the DPS kings. Assassins on the other hand, are more about strategic targeting & attacks, spikes, and maneuverability.

Anyone have any empirical research results they can throw my way to either prove/disprove what appears to be blatantly obvious in the game (at least to me and most of the GW community)?

Quote: Originally Posted by Grammar

Wow read the entire thing, lotsa chuckles and a whole lot more thank gods thanks to the sin defenders. To the anti-sin guys, I would love to take on any of yer best chars and smoke them just to snub you, I would also like to take you through any mission of your choice and show you how I can rip apart any PvE mob. To the defenders, thank you so much guys the sins need good defenders for their use. I have to agree with grammar in some ways about a sin comparing damage to a tank, tanks do hold out longer, but I have seen a tank taking a lloooooong time to defeat one enemy 1v1 but this has been said. I do disagree with him though a sin can deal out more DPS if he knows how to keep up stances and enchants that make it reaalllly hard to hit him along with keeping up skills that increase crits. Also if it works in PvP I can make it work in PvE, the AoD+GPS+HoO+FS+TF combo, it got me through the last five missions of the game or so, by jumpuing to anything that wasnt near anyone and annihalating it before anyone could evenm get near it, I also worked as a boss killer, then I took on a 6 skill combo stance killer for shiro, much fun knocking him out of his deadliest stance and then wailing on him. I make this challenge if anyone sees my sin Kirin Hanryuu in game, I dare you to either fight me or fight with me. That's the end of my coordinated blabber.

P.S. where do you anti-sin guys get off? Coming to OUR boards and telling us WE suck, serves ya right that ya came here and screwing with us sins and got slapped right back to the dirt(just like what happens to anyone who tries to take a sin on in game), have a nice nap

Quote: Originally Posted by just rude