Hate Towards Assassins...

QFT oh and I think 4 sins, if played right could really rock out

A well-played 'sin is a true asset to any team. Unfortunately, it seems to take a little longer for a player to get a grip on the 'sin skills. Too many are besotted with the armor look and the 'coolness factor' rather than determined to learn the profession and its skills.

When I played my sin, I kept her ranged at nearly all times. She did respectable damage and stayed alive with very little healer intervention.

My son has a sin who is aiming for the Survivor title (and looks like he will succeed!) The combination of skills and knowing when to be melee and when to fade back out is vital.

I hope that isn't what you go in with when you have a group, bc this build of yours proves why assassin are ineffective. You wasting time defending yourself instead of attacking. come on you are dealing no dmg, just surviviing.

GFT How hard I try to pound it into assassins heads that I meet that their best tactic is hit and run. I mean they have shadow stepping skills that move them away from opponents for a reason.

its ok to disagree, i expect that because like you many people compare sin1 to sin2 instead of comparing sinX globally...

of corse there is a rigth and wrong way to play a sin the real issue i see though is that a sin "globally" is not a strong as other classes "globally"

im comparing the sin against the game just as i compair any other class against the game...

a warrior overall will outbeat a sin in pve heck so will every other class and that is mainly my point...

the sin does not have the versatility of other classes when it comes to even skill usage each of the sin's skill have to be used in correct order or they do not work at all and without executing those skills in their respective required order they are useless... the assassin spends way too much downtime poping in and out of combat where as a strait out warrior can go in there and preasure dmg whilst the assassin has had to break agro 3-4 times...

the assassin class is way to conditional is my point... not saying sins suck "preiod" im saying they suck comparably to every other class in the game...

what is the true strenght of the assassin and at what cost does that strength come... now compare that to the others...

some of the problem is of corse some players realyl cant play a sin but those same players aren't good a playing other classes either its just an overall flaw of that particular player not being able to grasp the mechanics of the "game" not just the assassin...

i played my assassin and i felt i played him well but i definately will not choose him over any other class... i found the assassin very limiting the basics of the class are just weak... shoot in do dmg (try to do a lot of dmg) shoot out before dieing... you can not mix up your attacks at all or all the attacks will fail...

other classes do have conditional needs but not an entire skillbar of conditional needs...

all attacks must start with a lead attack or a limited choice of skills that are and exception... then offhand attacks must follow and preceed dual attacks... dual attacks must follow offhand attacks...

there are no just strait out attacks that can be used reactively in any combination dependant on the actions of your foes...

and strait out you cannot RELY on criticals because later on they are almost non existant even with a spot used on your skill bar (critical eye) in attempt to overcome this...

its very much my opinion that the sin does not have enough pros to constitute all the cons...

the class just makes me feel forced to do this then that then this then that and i cant vary at all from that or im useless...

its almost like the sin is missing something... and ive had this lingering feeling that, that something is similar to how a warriors adrenaline works...

the critical hit attribute portrays a use to maintain the sins energy pool to perform their respective attack chains and as per design it was assumed that these little buggers would be super fast at attacking yet they are as sluggish as a sword with the weaker base dmg and simply have to rely on skill attacks to do enough dmg to matter...

The problem, then, is that the enemies in PvE are level 28 instead of 20, since attacks and skill damage are (for the most part) balanced for PvP. I propose that a level cap of 20 be implemented for damage calculations.

Dont have Factions yet, but from all Ive read in this post, I feel I can say this -
Id call that "Discipline". You know, like a Shaolin monk or something?
Basically, the discipline that comes from martial arts training.

Might you be thinking of.... UBER KILLING ABILITY? I dont think thats what theyre about, it seems more like theyre a "end battle" killer.

Theyre not warrior, theyre supposed to(my guess) rush in from a flank or the rear of the enemy, get in 2-3 hits, and retreat, possibly drawing aggro away from a warrior, giving them a chance to heal or get in an extra attack(which "should" reaquire aggro on warrior). The assassin then heals, and sets up for their next attack.
My 2 cents.

That is the problem. As assassin you have to take out casters and such, but I haven't found any caster that I could take out in the 3-5 seconds the assassin lives. There are always multiple of them, who instantly target you with godly accuracy.

Assassins seem to be OK for most pvp and L20'ish PvE. However, once the L20 assassin hits any of the L28 end-game locations (Raisu Palace, Urgoz Warrens, The Deep, Ring of Fire, etc...), then their mortality rate shoots up quite a bit, even when using AoD->teleport combinations.

I really wish assassins would have a balanced mix of both enchantments and defensive stances -- at the moment, almost all of their defensive skills are enchantment based.

Temple-Strike's 25-sec recharge time and very short ~7 sec duration makes it almost non-elite-worthy. If ranger-abuse triggered the 25-sec nerf, why not make its duration critical strikes based? After all, critical strikes is a much more fitting attribute for this precision elite attack given its description.

A little more base armor (75 base armor instead of 70), or 85AL/-10AL while attacking, or other more meaningful situational armor upgrades wouldn't hurt either, at least to slow down the insta-deaths I've seen in L28+ zones.

I believe I play my assassin fairly well... I've capped all of their elites, and condition-bombing (temple strike/blinding powder + twisting fangs + epidemic) seems to be the best PvE AE-crowd control I've seen so far. There's nothing like mass-dazing + deep wounding + bleeding + blinding entire crowds to take them down quickly (multiple mob healers = no problem!).

no one likes assasins because many r inexperienced and do it for teh anime stuff

There are many people who dont know what there doing, problem is in cantha is that everybody is picking the ass. () cause its new, so the probability is high for a crappy player. In tyria the professions were lil more spread out. I knew this problem would come when factions came out.
Didn't make one myself though, caught up in the ritualist thing

My 2 day old pvp assassin has more deaths than my 3 month old pve monk

Just kidding. I'm not an idiot. Most noobs think assassins are tanks. The truth is, assassins are for...assassinating things. In, kill, run away. If it doesnt die within 5 seconds, get the hell out!

I'll agree with the general opnion here and that is assassins do not get played properly. Infact I do not think the hench assassin knows how to be a proper assassin. I'm forever watching that deadly hench dart into the mix, do some damage and then "teleport" away into the middle of 4 or more enemies and be killed in a matter of seconds and then aggo that group onto me. Its VERY annoying watching that green dot jump around like that.

But my reason for not playing one is... well they are so skinny.

this is the usual assumtion and granted it does have some merit... however there are tons of experienced players haveing a really hard time justifying this when they themselves try out the assassin toward end game material and bam get hit with the "your a noob, learn to play"

the real reason is a combination of that "belief" and the FACT that the place an assassin takes up in a party would be more usefull as another Warrior instead (not finished on this keep reading)

right there are "many" that don't know how to play the assassin well or any other class for that mater because they are "new" to the entire game... and again there are even many more that are NOT new to the game that strugle with this class due to many reasons but IMO mostly due to that the assassin actually does have to be a tank in a lot of aspects due to the fact the only way they really can do dmg is by being inside the front lines... it really isnt easy to not get agroed while playing an assassin and with how weak their armor is and it not haveing mods for even elemental/physical dmg they get their ass womped by the sheer dmg in seconds by higher level mobs... seriousely they have ranger armor rating but have to fight in the front lines they are going to die quick...

you made a good choice by going Ritualist, after my assassin failed me i made one and so far imo the rit is the most versatile class (exactly oposite of the assassin, which is odd because i have always favored melee characters and rangers)

id believe you even if you werent joking... my assassin died around 30 times on the island in cantha, i didnt die my first time with my ritualist until the undercity and actually recieved the 2 ranks in survival before my first death occured with my rit

and seriousely folks just throwing out the whole noob coment so loosely is not a fair assesment of players playing this class... MOST players know the assassin is NOT a tank and really just have a hard time not being one whilst they have to be up there with the tanks to get their dmg in... agro seems to be very must against the assassin and i actually wouldnt be surprised if the AI didnt have a higher priority against assassin than they do warriors... even when playing my ritualist and taking a war hecnh and an assassin hench the mob odly always directs to the assassin before they do the warrior even when the warrior is just as close and even when the mob has to run by the warrior and chase down the assassin

my biggest frustration with the class is that no mater how good the player is thats playing the assassin that the assassin is still outmatched by any half way decent tank.... and that really is the point that the assassin really doesn't have an area where they are superior to any class... a warrior still can outdamaged them same time as living longer than them, and archer and an ele can spike better than them, and a mesmer can lay on more degens.. all other classes can do the same jobs the assassin can either better or the same with a better life expectancy...

OH WAIT... i take that back NO CLASS can even come close to the ability of an assassin when it comes to drawing agro... even if you are holding an item the assassin is much better at taking agro

and shard that is where testing your build comes in, if your build cant kill the enemy within 7-10 secs, scrap it. I think that the sin was more designed for the elite players, you either were godly with a sin and outdid every other class or you fall horribly short, tis the way it goes. and sinican I understand you POV on the situation I may not agree with it, but I understand, I do hope that one day I can help you see the light in my POV. But you are very well spoken and have not truely insultedme at all in your belief about what is now just about my fav class, well played, you have earned my respect.

Also as mention to everyone, classes should NOT be compared especially when it comes to comparing them with the core classes. Mainly because the core classes are the core "spine" of ANY RPG
Monk= White Mage Warrior=Paladin/tank etc. Mesmer= red mage Ele= black mage Ranger=archer/bowman/hunter etc. necro=anti-priest/death mage
These classes consist of the spine of any build you can compare anything to one of these classes in one way or the other.

sinican don't be so closed minded, and these sins aren't quite doing it right methinks, I have died my fair share as my sin due to ABing and learning myself, but I have it down to an art now, I find the secluded monk AFTER the tank(s) have taken aggro I jump to him kill him and jump back, wait for like five seconds, find the next secluded target and take him out, it really isn't too hard. Sins are meant to be "in the lines" at all they are meant for search and destroy, find the loner and kill him, they donm't even need to get near the mob of clumped casters. Like I have also said before if they are in the DA line they can make the tank's job much much easier by crippling and degening his targets.

yea the problem is the assassins we see arent very good A.K.A. Beginners or newbies (assassins are the popular ones now) and they always die cuz they just started the game. Now the build i got doesnt make me feel like some assassins who feel unwanted

actually my PoV on the assassin issue is strictly in terms of PvE...

I do enjoy my sin for PvP as did i enjoy him all the way up to lvl 20 Mobs in PvE...

i think there usefullness really comes out for PvP and its just my opinion that they do fall short in pve...even though the whol critical hit thing seems like a small pro for the assassin it actually dramatically alters the class's functionality...

so when it comes to PvP if my Assassin had a 40% chance to crit it is an actual 40% chance because max player level is 20.. and every crit does "max" base weapon dmg + bonuses and returned energy needed for more attack skill usage...

when the mob lvls hit 21+ the assassins true effectiveness really lowers... they arent landing those crits and doing max base weapon dmg +bonuses and they arent getting a return on energy so they cant use as many attack skills as often...

to me this small little mater could quite possibly make all the differnt for the assassin in pve... that say if the devs didnt count oponent lvl vs crit chance past lvl 20... the dmg reduction would still be subject to armor and such just not the chance for criticals AND dbl strikes...

I actually had great effect with a passive attack build assassin that just used enchaments and stances without attack skills in pvp and pre lvl 20 pve... i actually loved the build a lot but again when those lvl 21+ mobs came along my sin just got stomped...

and i have to go on... the passive attack assassin actually rocked... id use sharpen blades and apply poison stack on critical eye and crit defence with a 20% enchant weapon and man those dbl strikes would fly mixed with crits my energy felt endless and crit defence never seemed to wear off... matter of fact this is my current pvp build for RA... i let the dbl strikes and criticals do all the work applying the degens constantly and providing me defence... of corse i get broke by enchant removers buts still nothing gets ya more exited then your attacks going of so fast it sounds like a machine gun watching them degens stack together at 7 pips and seeing the health being chewed away and that war cant hit me... sorry in the moment

there is not much else i can add to the subject really, i expect everyone to have their own opinion about any given subject and this is just mine... just now eveyone know my opinion and that really is the whole point of discussion :P

wow this topic has really delved into both of our views on sins. I agree about the crit lowering with the higher level and I think that the sins, being assassins and that assassins always know the weakspot of their enemies should have the crit hit ratio based on their strength on the criticals attribute ignore level, so simply put at 13 crit(for example) the sin should have that same crit ratio no matter what level monster he/she is facing. Also about your passive attack build sharpen daggers FTW also have you considered bringing locusts fury with that? the increase in double strikes is quite worthwhile for such a build methinks.

EDIT by Swehurn: No flames, please.

The warriors sword doesn't double strike. And warriors don't have combos that can be reused so often and do as much damage as an Assassin's.

As for the Rit... I'd like to see any other class solo a group of 12 oni as easily. But besides that, you only look at damage. Rit really was made to be a second Healing Class, not a damage dealer. You don't see many Smiting Monks either.

By the way. Male warriors especially look like big stupid brutes. Hence the reason all my warriors are female. I personally think the male assassin at least looks like a warrior should.

Vinc what build do you use for the 12 oni kill (PM it to me if you would so as not to take this thing completely off topic)? (ungues farm I suspect?) I would love to use that build once I get my rit leveled.

Ritualist dont suck..i did Vizunah square with my lvl 16 rit and a team of henches on each side. and for farming they are awesome with the awesome skill : Vengegul was khanhei, actualy ritualist is a very good class wen you know how to play it

Ritualist ownz joo, but my sin ownz you ritualist ;\



yes i sounded like a noobie idiot on purpose

quanzong... have u ever played pvp?

if not... try it...

if so... hoh has seen some great rit builds... and ive seen some guilds use some pretty sick ganking assassins as well... so idk where ur coming from... but those chars definatly have use...

as far as pve... its just inexperience with assassins... people try to play them like warriors... they die alot... ppl are unhappy... thats y ppl wont trust assassins...

I think most of the hate just comes from word of mouth pretty much, "somebody hates it, so must I". Sure, there are going to be some people that don't understand the profession yet, but give'em a break already, lol. I'm sure none of you were total geniuses at playing character classes new to... oh wait, nevermind, I guess everyone looks up builds all the time. Since there aren't any builds for assassins to look up (or not that many), must not be a good character class huh? Dies a lot, doesn't play well, takes too much damage, can't heal like I can with the warrior. Boo hoo, lol.

And with the monks? Really, if you can't adapt to a new profession as far as healing and protecting goes, maybe it's time to realize that you don't know everything yet. I mean, the low armor, whoa, what a big deal... seriously, rangers have just about the same don't they? And what about the tanking eles, didn't find it hard to adapt to them really, or did you? I don't find it hard to try to adapt to other professions, if I know what they generally do. Pulling off a lot of attack combos? How about something that heals on attack/spell/skill? How about something that reduces damage, or prevents so much of it from being caused, or negating it? Take a look at your skills again, might help somewhat for every party member, but one in particular may be esspecially useful to the assassin to keep him going.

And how about those Ritualists? You mean that all those weapon skills, and things like union, shelter, recuperation, don't work pretty well with an assassin if not everyone? I'd beg to differ really. I think it's because most of these players are so used to their old builds, that they don't want to spend the time thinking up anything new that can be beneficial to the entire group, along with assassins. Just plain laziness if you ask me. I started a Ritualist about a week ago, and I don't really go for the healer role. I use spirits that benefit everyone along with myself, and damage dealing. I already have a monk, so I don't think I should have to be a second class one with this character. I do pretty well at it so far I think too. Henched almost every mission without problems, and ones I didn't, no problems there either.

I went into a pretty hard to beat mission (at least for masters) with 2 assassins, an elementalist, and henches, when I brought my monk over to cantha. I didn't have a problem healing the sins at all, and I don't even play one yet. I just thought of what they would be doing, and changed a few skills around. Granted I have to pay attention to what they're doing somewhat to be effective, but it's not that hard. See damage being taken or skills going off, throw on 5 energy skill, more damage, throw on another skill, then they're happy, so they can whip out some combos or whatever.

I think all in all, it's just the same lamers who deemed the mesmer a useless profession in PvE. So buck up little campers (lol, just kidding), if I'm monking, I'll be glad to play with you in groups. Besides, I need more exprience with how the profession works until I start up one. So far I've been watching random pug assassins and pikatchu [henchmen] or whatever his name is.

I was in Zen Daijun forming a well balanced party of 12+ players for the mission. When I invited a lvl 20 assassin, 3 of my party didn't want him. I still accepted the assassin since he met my requirements. Even at lvl 20 the sin managed to die twice. I didn't mind, since he wasn't spamming to be resurrected. We still got master reward because at least I bothered to get some better levels for the mission.
To be short; Yes, the sin is not the strongest character in the game and dies allot, but who cares? Everybody can play what and how he wants. Don't discriminate each other for the character we like to play. This is not the "real" world. We actually can be nice to each other, no matter what race, nationality or gender.
Feel free to discriminate master Panaku, because he is completely worthless anyway, but please be nice to each other.

Well, I have an Assassin, a Mesmer, a Ranger, a Warrior, a Monk, and an Ele/mo. I like them all, yet I think that ANet still needs to tweak the Assassin a bit. Sinican wrote:

'another major flaw i see in the class is that after level 20 when the mobs keep increasing in lvl 20+ assassins much needed critical strikes that manage there small energy pool become less and less with no way to keep ciriticals at any type of stable level this include skills the specifically work off of criticals'

Very true. For assassins, criticals should not dwindle as level increases above 20. This would not affect PvP, and would help a lot in PvE.

Look in the farming section. It's already been listed there by someone else. As well as in the Merged New Items forum, but that's rather long...

a good assassin requires some common sense from the player. its impossible to expect that from a pve pug. thus, assassins in general will suck.

My poor assassin - went to level 20 on the training island.... did some quests with henchies and no one wants them in any quest/mission now.

Poor girl had to take her to Tyria where she's having a blast and is appreciated.

can we please meet in a pvp area? ingame name = sektor xiang, pls whisper me.

Im one of thouse people. My assassin has a ton of greens, 15k Luxon, alot of elites including AoD (which i used alot). I ended up deleting him for the above reasons. It got so bad that i had to BRIBE people to let me in their groups, I was giving 1k per party member and an extra 500g to the monks every time i died, i also sometimes gave away farmable greens to the party leaders.

I deleted him not just because of the hate towards the class, I realized that behind that cool,fun class there is nothing usefull. They dont tank (most assassins think otherwise...), they dont nuke, they dont have any special usefull builds, All they do is spike and they are very bad at it.

The only good assassin that is almost acceptable is the A/R Critical Barrager.All i know is that i wont accept any invites from assassins, I have not played with a good assassin yet so i doubt they are out there.

thats rather narrowminded isnt it... and that same thing goes for ANY class... not just assassins... a good player can still have a sucky assassin... you all always want to blame the player though...

its just plain ignorance, I'm sorry but it is... Its not to say that there are players that do suck but pretty much labeling all assassins as having sucky players playing them is bull...

and really to other people in regards to how assassins think they are tanks... do you have a degree in phsycology??? or is that again ignorance speeking... believe me over 90% of the assassins out there KNOW THEY AREN'T TANKS but its nifty how the assassin is the ONLY other MELEE CLASS thus they actually have to be in melee range... hrmm makes them look like tanks doesn't it makes them play like tanks doesn't it...

do you people know what a tank is??? a Tank is a Stance Defensive Warrior... maybe all of you are thinking that all assassin act like they are a wammo... well they actually are aren't they now... they have to run in do dmg and get out... what do you call that??? or havent you smarties figure out what label to give an assassin ...granted there is a smart and stupid way to play an assassin but the line between them is a very thin one at best... all assassins have to be in agro to do dmg just some have a harder time getting out of the agro before its too late... and really it doesn't matter to much if the mobs agroed on someone else because they change their agro real quick to that little assassin trying to get his/her share of dmg in and at lvl 20+ mobs their 60AL doesn't cut it specially since their armor doesnt have those nifty conditional modifiers that the OTHER MELEE class has to dampen the blows nor the absorption runes nor the shield nor the stances

sorry for the anger but seriousely how many times must i reply to people that THINK THEY KNOW FOR A FACT SOMETHING THAT IS STRICTLY A MATTER OF OPINION WITH NO SUPPORTING EVIDENCE OF FACTUALITY.

FACT... assassins are melee characters
FACT... assassins have 70AL
FACT... Warriors are melee
FACT... Warriors have 80AL

is it really hard to understand whats going on here people... i guess its just easier to blame players than deduct LOGICAL CONCLUSIONS

Assassins have 70AL

LOL... HAH... thats great... irony at its best...

thanks for the correction on my oversight.. been playing my rit too much...

Vecte save a piece of quanzong for me please, Genraka I would love to either fight with you or against you, just to prove you wrong, Sins don't suck at spiking, they actually rock out on it better than eles, Sin= one man spike team Air ele= needs three or four for effective spike, sinican beyond the warrior comparison stuff can you find anything else TRUELY wrong about the sin? I would love to see it, BTW mods please close this thread it is going nowhere, it's just a bunch of people saying sins suck cuz they can't play em and me and a few others having to constantly defend what is a great class.

Only thing I think needs to be tweaked is crit hit ratio.

oh and uh
Fact..Sins can spike without a previous warm-up
Fact..Warriors can't spike without adrenaline build
Accepted..Sins are made for caster killing, if they tele to the back lines and drop their target fast enough they should be fine
Accepted..Tanks are MEANT for taking damage and fighting other tanks

corrected my "facts" after reading big tru's statement

and no if the sins sucks it doesn't mean the player "sucks" he is merely inexperienced and doesn't know how to play a NEW class. Only reason rits are getting love is because they ummm heal. Monks never got hate because even a retard can hit a button and heal someone, rit= pseudo monk thus rits dun get hate, I have a damn good feeling that my Ritual Lord spirit warder rit will likely get a little hate and I will suck with him at first but Ileanr to live with it.

well, i think that if assasins lernt to fall back to caster lines with their skills, they would at least evade death, am I right?

And have a recharge afterwards

How is it hard for a warrior to spike?

That's not a fact. That's an interpetation of their "purpose" (Not that A.Net's idea of a proffesion's purpose means anything... Elementalists... need I say more?). What is stopping me from putting a teleportation skill on my warrior or simply sprinting to the backline? (assuming you're talking about PvE)

Again, opinion. Can you tell me exactly why I cannot use a normal warrior build (the damage dealing, 16 weapon attribute, 9-11 stregnth, 3-5 attack skills) in PvE? What is preventing me from NOT bringing Tactics skills for tanking purposes?

what is preventing people from getting it into their thick skulls that sins can be played right and that they aren't tanks? Also I know that the tank thing is "opinion" but what I am saying is they are the only class fit for it IMO and in the opinions of many others. I also know that the caster killing thing is an interpretation of purpose, it is a theory, like say the big bang theory, it can NOT be exstensively proved but it is accepted as truth.
I know that warriors can spike too, but not with the ability we sins can from what I have seen.
Don't warriors have a recharge after hitting spike? They have to regain adrenaline, especially if they use a finisher skill like Final Thrust.
The caster killing is also a well known accepted theory.

I want to thank both sinican and bigtru for being able to partcipate in a healthy debate with me without the need for flames or anger.

jaibas you are very right, the only minute problem with that is the matter of the sin holding the aggro of any mosters he was near when he teleported back to caster lines, this is one of the FEW situations where a sin should tank, and only a few monsters could be drawn into caster lines, at the most, and the sin can handle another monster or two, even after firing off a massive combo.