Gaile Gray: Leechers are not a support issue.

When I read that my first reaction was: huh? Seriously I fail to see any logic behind this....
First she admits there is a problem by calling AFK players leechers, the turns around and says hey there is no problem. Well, what is a leecher then? According to wiki leecher is a person who intentionally goes AFK during the mission to gain faction points or finish storyline mission while not playing the game.
I don't know about ms Gray, but this sounds like an exploit to me. And intentional use of exploit IS a support issue.
In case you disagree here is a Google definition (the one that is relevant to computer games)
This definition gives us two point using which we can identify an exploit.

1) Software bug.
There is not doubt that the bug exists. You can call it poor design or fundamental issue, it doesn't matter. It is a vulnerability allowing unsportsmanlike players to gain unfair advantage. Therefore it is a bug.

2) Players' intent to use that bug to gain unfair advantage or disrupt gaming experience of others.
Both intent and gain are pretty obvious. I mean I'm sorry but I do not believe that someone being AFK for few games in a row does that unintentionally.

First you have to be there every time to push "enter" button, and then you have to be very patient to sit there and wait until the game ends to push it again. Thus we get bots... Don't tell me bots are undetectable. ANet found way to detect 55 bots and ban them, why can't they do it here?

I'm sorry dear ANet, but this is BS. Stop making up excuses and at least admit that problem exists and needs a solution instead of "ummm... maybe next year we will roll out something useless like WTS fix...". Don't you understand that most leechers MOTIVATE their behavior by the fact that ANet says that they doing nothing wrong!?
Please ANet, make up your mind! Show us a strong position! Ban a dozen of the most active (or rather most inactive) leechers, announce that you've banned hundred and I guarantee you the problem will reduce itself to almost negligible annoyance the next day.

Well technically she's right, it has nothing to do with the game's construction. Your definitions of an exploit don't apply to this either. It's not a bug because you can take advantage of it, it's a bug if something doesn't work properly
It definitely does not work as intended, but there's nothing wrong with the game itself, it's the players.
I do see this as a huge problem, but the argument you put up is full of flaws starting with the thought that this is a Bug

reading comprenhension 101.

she said it was a poor sport player problem and not a problem for the support team.

she did not say there was no problem, she said it was not in supports baliwick

Yeah, it's not a bug. I think it should be addressed somehow, but it's not a bug.

that my friend was the stupidest use of a definition ive seen so far.....

1st of all there is no rule on bieng AFK in gw, nor there ever shud be, and as for the leechers.. grow a pair of balls and deal with it i kno its a saad situation but there is no way to fix this porblem.. actualy i lied ther e is way i.e /boot player name perhaps? and if 3/4 of team does it mayb the boot? thaz the only way i can think of that will fix it. and there is absolutly no reason and justification to ban leechers

Eh, where were those comments taken from/which thread?

Some kind of vote-to-kick system for parties would be very handy. Encountered increasing numbers of freeloading slackers who just happen to need to go afk or some other excuse and then just HAPPEN to come back at the end of the mission/quest or just before the end.

How irritating is that these lazy bums taking a free ride off the effort of others? Something should be done about it.

"Got to go, bye!" - then remains in party and doesn't quit (long quest, got more than few insults and comments from the remainder of the party as we continued on)

"I'm making this monk into a 55 later on" then when quest starts "Got to have dinner!" - I tell the rest of the group hell with that, I'm not carrying some slacker through a long quest.. walked back into town, others left him too. Heard that excuse before.

"brb" - or some other useless excuse, then the slacker goes off for entire duration and comes back after quest/mission is completed.

One common theme - annoyed and pissed off players remaining in the party, while some selfish freeloading toerag takes advantage. Most/all of the rest wishing they could kick the freeloader. I'd use more harsh language to describe these lowlife, but I'd probably get banned... what they're doing is basically saying "your time is worthless and what's important is I get to the next part, at your expense"

Seriously, put in some kind of vote-to-kick system, vote initiator has to give a reason which is relayed to all the party, then a majority is required for the kick to be approved.

If some of you don't mind being used (and abused) by all means, go right ahead but I think "growing a pair of balls" means actually standing up to it and doing something about it. Which we can't as there's no vote/kick mechanism... and that's why people get away with it.

As a seasoned software developer myself allow me to disagree with that statement.
Bug is not just something that causes crash. System that allows unintended use by all means is broken.

sorry but vote to kick is not a good idea in anyway at all.

oh, sweet, a green dropped for me!
vote kicked...

well you get the idea, if Anet went this route theyd have to do something with item drops and assigning as well.

Quite simple: items assigned to someone go with them, much like the current system of drops appearing in a window after mission completed. They can always take screenshots and report it or something if it's been abused.

Anet I'm sure has complete logs of everything, so they'd have log of the Vote reason as well to back it up.

I ran a couple of ideas for ranking players based on reliability by Gaile in the past. Whether they can or will be used in the future is up to Anet developement. Banning people for abandoning their team is not acceptable, they are not doing anything which breaks the game, nor are there any rules saying they cannot go AFK.

A system of ranks and recognition so people can realize whether each person is a dedicated player would be a great way to allow parties to find people they know they can rely one, but banning peoples accounts for being lazy isn't right.

Vote to kick has been discussed in other threads before and I believe the general consensus is that on the surface it sounds great and would come in handy, but when you really get down to it, this feature would ultimately be a bad idea. Vote to kick can be abused and while you fix the problem of afk folks you create a possibility of problems where a team of "jerks" (or what have you) booting players that shouldn't be kicked.

in the scope of just one game - yes...
Once again, systematic use of the known exploit is a violation and should be bannable.


if there is something GW doesn't need it is another tool for discrimination, tyvm.

Oh for God's sake, people being AFK is not a bug - it's called BAD BEHAVIOUR.

where did I say that people going afk is a bug?
Read the stuff you wrote before you hit submit - this doesn't even make any sense.
THE SYSTEM that rewards players that are not playing the game is a bug.

Yet, while they banned hundreds of accounts 'accidentally' due to 'misconduct', leading the people to believe that they had all been banned due to the amount of afk time that they had spent on a 9 ring spot in shing jea, AN does absolutely nothing, and will never do anything about these afk leechers.

It is truly hilarious, because by doing nothing, AN is ruining their own faction farming mini games. Aspenwood, Jade Quarry, even at times, Amatz Basin is riddled with a leecher or two. AN doesn't want to give out their game for free, because hey, that's a free ride, you have to buy the game to play. So tell me again why I or anyone else would want to work to win at any of the above mentioned places, hence giving some loser afk account, or bot free faction?

Another reason why vote kicking shouldnt be so easy

A-Oh sweet, we have reached "insert green dropping boss name here"
B-Yes it was a tough distance , but we dont need you A for defeating him
A was vote kicked

Perhaps I should've said, people going AFK isn't DUE to bugs.

Seriously YOU are the one who doesn't know what you're rambling on about. What does this whole AFK issue have to do with bugs at all? And while we're on it, HOW do you propose to ""solve"" this ""bug"" of yours then? You CAN'T fix people going AFK, you can only deter AGAINST it.

They already said they're looking into it, but all you're doing here is whine about your silly little opinion. WHo cares if it is a """bug""", the fact is they are aware of the issue.

duh, thank you for proving my point...

As for the rest of your post, I am for you think you flamebaiting me, while in fact you the one flaming. I never said a bad word to you. But you think you have a right to bash me bacuse you apparently you know stuff about everything. Here is a newsflash - you don't. I do, because that is my area of expertise.

HA! I guess somebody's ego needs a huge reality check.

And thanks for proving your WHAT point? That you took people's words too literally or what?

Perhaps the vote kick option should ONLY be available after the end of the mission (just like the skip cutscene button) and then it only be enabled if the player has not contributed substantially to the party via damage to the enemy or healing/buffing the team somehow within the last 5 minutes). That way people couldn't kick innocent people and you could prevent them from getting faction/next mission by going afk... Obviously wouldn't work with green farming though.

That is not flame baiting. However ilovecps 2nd post was and Samuel, even if it was available after missions, It still means one whole slot was wasted during that time.

Also to the OP. There is no bug, no matter how you put it, a Bug is something wrong with the system, to make it do something unattended. There is no bug in the way teh SYSTEM rewards the player. They were on the team, they gain the award. However, it is not completely favored for the afker. They do not gain any exp unless in the aggro bubble, And im sure money count is lowered for them (Un-sure). There is no clear way to stop afking-ness. And to the whole idea of More ranks.... No more discrimination! But a bad rank... im all up for. Afking for the whole mission? How about a negative point to that player?

- After X Negative points, player cannot enter PVP areas without getting back to 0 , removing the negative points.
- After X Negative points, please cannot enter live teams and is restricted to Hench men.

I believe the op is reffering to the Rewards system as being bugged, not the afking ness itself. Though however his WORDING does make one think that AFKING is a bug itself.

Im sure you might be onto something, However your own source of proof, the wIki STATES that there is no clear solution to this problem, So please stop bashing the Design of the game.

This here problem, is not an Exploit of a BUG. It is a problem with the person itself. Thus it is not a support issue. They said they would look into it, and im sure they will come up with something

- Just my Two cents. Hope im not bashing you or anything.

i can only suggest you to read this again
And wiki is only a source of definition for word "leecher", nothing more.

I fail to see a contradiction you trying to show me.
Is there a problem with people mentality? Yes.
Does it mean software is less broken? No.

What is so hard to understand here? Fine... i'll make up an easier example:
Imagine modern society w/o cops. People would be committing crimes left and right. By you logic society doesn't need cops in the first place, because it is a problem with people. And since there is no enforcement, nothing is prohibited. And everything that is not prohibited is allowed. Thus crimes are not really crimes, just a bad behavior on peoples' part.
Sure it would be nice if people wouldn’t try to commit crimes in the first place, but it is a luxury that might never happen. Enforcement and clear distinction between allowed and not allowed is a necessity.

Reminder to keep discussion civil. Sharing opinions is fine, but personal attacks are not.

Thanks.

Let me chime in here. The problem with an analogy like this, is that the "cops" in GW is represented by game code. In real life, an individual could break into your house, and steal whatever they want. The hypothetical cop in this situation is in place to catch said individual and eventually have them thrown in jail (of course after a long process, but you get the point).

In GW, we have game code that prevents you from breaking into someone's storage and stealing whatever. Because of this, we don't need a cop to throw anyone anywhere, because the crime can't even happen.

Thing is, we're not talking theft, here. We're talking an abuse of 'the system'. Unfortunately, in real life, people abuse the system all the time. It's not illegal, and there's nothing cops can do about it. The whole point of abusing the system, is to find out where the laws that govern people and keep them from stealing and what-not are not entirely solid, and make it work in your favor.

So, we pretty much know that going AFK is not a 'crime' as said by Gaile. So no amount of cops on the beat is going to solve this. What we need is new laws, or rather, new CODE. You can't, however, just make AFKing 'illegal'. That would be equivalent to making standing on the sidewalk illegal just because there are people who stand on a sidewalk to peddle wares.

So what can they do? I really don't know, personally. Coming up with ideas of how to fix this issue is more important than complaining about it, I can say that much.

Going AFK in a mission is no different than 55-ing, playing out the mission normally, or hell, delivering quest item A to person B. It's part of the game, it's a strategy, and for some people, it pays off.

The benefit is you gain faction without having to physically be there.

The cost is it takes a lot longer, can be against EULA (read: botting), and the pay off isn't as big (usually).

There is nothing wrong with it, it's not an exploit. Nothing says that "You can't hinder your team to possibly get a smaller reward than you would have attained."

At best its a loophole, a legal, EULA-compliant part of the game.

And for the record, I've never afk'd for faction once.

1) While playing Guild Wars, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players.

http://www.guildwars.com/support/leg...sofconduct.php

knowing this Gaile, can you epxlain to me how in the nine rings it is possible to still state that afk-ers aren't distressing nor ruining their gameplayexperience and therefore not subject to support issue. Although bots were a support issue since they breach the same rules and regulations...

Seems a tad strange and dual standarded to me...

I know Ira's frustration; I've even given up on those missions due to standing around for what feels like forever then get stuck with afkers.

Bad thing is the afk thinking has even pushed onward towards other missions and quest/areas in Tyria now. I've had so many people just go afk in the last few weeks that I've gotten to the point, if I can train a ton of things on them, I do so. Worst case was some jefk who just stood there. After ten minutes we returned to where he still stood and descided via whispers to sit around him till he came back. After literally 45 minutes, he came back and had the nerve to say "Why haven't you all finished the mission yet?"

Problem is funnier now though; Anet put in the "ring" games during the festival and encouraged afking. So they obviously have no issues with people afking. I would imagine this is a lost cause at this point.

This behavior has made PuGs the worst possible situation to play in, and as such I find myself logging into play, trying a mission or bonus with henchies once then logging out in frustration. - I'm stuck with henchies at this point because majority of my guild has quit playing due to lack of content.

Because if you want to read something liberally, you can make it say whatever you want.

Under your logic, someone beating me in PvP violates that rule.

Or Rage Quiters.

Or Monks that won't join groups.

Or Whammos.

Or Assassins not being taken into groups.

Or a monster killing the group in PvE.

Or an idiot causing a party whipe in PvE.

Or everyone getting drops but one person, in PvE.

Or the reminder of how long you played the game. (Remember people complained about that too).

Etc.

---

Don't take the rule out of context. You're using the "or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players." as a wide-armed end all to rule out AFKers.

Look at the words before it, harrass and threaten. They don't want you to sit here and "cyber-bully" or make racial remarks, or death threats and all those other things that might get them law suits from overzealous mothers. Not the fact that an AFKer has very slightly dampened your fun in the game.

It is a support issue, no doubt about it. Forget about all the is-it-a-bug-or-isn't-it-a-bug. It's a support issue because ANet themselves tell us it's a support issue, no matter what Gaile says. Here's a quote from GuildWars.com. (The bold text for emphasis is my work, not theirs.)

There you have it.

It is a support issue.

I see where you're coming with that, but I still think that's a stretch. Personally, I think that's speaking to more of harrassing and inappropriate comments and the such, not a play style.

While we are more than free to report it to them, I don't think it would have any reaction different than reporting greifers or rage quitters.

That is a good point you brought up. Thing is, "unacceptable in-game behaviour" is a very subjective term. Is it "unacceptable" to Anet to AFK? Apparently not according to Gaile, and that is where the proverbial line is drawn. Not terribly clear on the website, though, I'll give you that.

Point is, you could still report this all day long to support. Hell, you could report that So-and-so called you a noob, or you just got beat in GvG by a bunch of Touch Rangers, but none of it will be considered a 'support issue' by Anet and will likely be closed. This is all completely at their discretion.

An anti AFK mechanism in Missions sure would help a lot more than wasting time on re-wording the EULA. What in all honesty would an EULA Rewording do? More people throwing Ban threats at each other. It's allready ridiculous enough, we don't want to emphasize this behavior, do we?

"Omg, gimme item or me will reportz you!"
"Lol, you meh called Noob, lol report u - censored - censored - censored - censored"
"I know a dev, you will get banned. Say bye to your account."

There's not a shred of doubt in my minb that AFK-ing on purpose in certain places would fall under 'unacceptable behaviour'. It absolutely ruins gameplay during missions like Fort Aspenwood. The AFKer's teammembers are in a real way hampered in their enjoyment of the game, not in a "I've been called a noob" kind of way.

Competitive missions are my chosen way to gain Faction, and believe me, playing for a few hours with the same people showing up AFK every few games, that's... annyoing. (Keeping it civil.)

You're right. It's not a bug. But the OP is right too. It IS an exploit. By the definition, this is an exploit that allows a player to get unlimited gain (faction) without having to do anything at all. (except press a mouse button once every few minutes.)

It does need to be addressed. Either by removing the exploit: making it so that players get no reward unless they actually do something, or by banning those that take advantage of the exploit (It's not like A-Net hasn't banned exploiters before.)

I'm not disagreeing with you in the least. I'm just saying that on their site it says you can report 'unacceptable behaviour'. If they want to persue it, they will, and it will be considered a 'support issue' as support will be handling it. If they want to close the ticket and have nothing more to do with it, then it's not a support issue to them. I was merely giving examples of other things they would immediately close, not comparing the severity of the issues at hand.

And yes, it is really annoying.

Regardless, it's a support issue, despite Gaile claiming it isn't. That's the only point I wanted to make.

how about, and I think this is what they meant, /kick character name only works for alliance battles, when you see someone clearly afk for the whole game.

there are far, far more important things for the support team to handle than 1 or 2 people going afk during aspenwood. getting stuck in terrain, for one. z-axis, for another.

No, the AFK issue is infinitely more important. Not dealing with it, heck, even coming out with a statement that it's not a support issue, that's silent consent, that's sending a message that it's OK to ruin other people's enjoyment. That's not a message you want to send.

And actually, if that IS their stance, I'll be doing some AFK faction farming of my own soon.

I think that, vote /kick should be able when the person has done or undone something that everyone else did, some sort of conditions of kicking. Dunno what sort of conditions, though. Not moving for 10 minutes would do, but true leechers would have a hack for moving each minute, or something. Those could be banned, however, as there are few that would do so.

It isn't out of context... people going afk is hurting my enjoyment of the game. Therefore it is ruining my gameplayexperience in the same way as bots are ruining the gaemplayexperience if they are on my team. And last i checked they do denounce botting, therefore the previous one should be denounced as well and be bannable/fixeable but sure as hell be worthy of a supportticket...

Now to come back to the points you highlight, i would say that someone beating me during pvp is not bannable since its part of their competetive focus and i had fun during the fight.

Next rage quitters: sure are annoying and should be fixed / punished, not banned. Fixed by substituting with a simple hench and not letting the person play the game untill his previous group finished the mission either by failing it or completing it.

monks, whammos, assasins, monsters, idiots is all to bad but in a way have some fixes, ergo availability of henchies not to mention that it is part of gamePLAY and not gameAFK.

Drops is part of gameplaymechanics but meh it has been changed partly during the last year, so some peple might consider it a possibility for improvement. Even though for me its simply part of any rpg game.

Remainder of the game, i would have no problem with if people found it annoying, in the end its an option that people should be able to customize as being non shown. Default is on though. But in the end it would be the persons choice not anets...