The Need For A True "Guild War" (for those that love PvE)

Now, in all my suggestions I will try to have some emphasis on "what is the purpose" of having xyz vs. doing something because its cool, example, "I should have my own house in an outpost", then the question is "And what purpose does that serve?".

So, here I go.....

I've been a guild leader for 3 weeks for a fast growing guild. I find that many love PVE and aren't good or don't care for PvP, but, realize PVE has its limits eventually....so, the following will focus on extending PVE. The game is called "Guild Wars", but the only war is the actual physical fight of one guild vs. the next. The other war, the bigger one, is, which guild is the most popular, wise, friendly, courageous and adventurous... all leading to a score of SUCCESS.


NEW GUILD LADDER

A separate Guild Ladder focused on PVE
This would include a system that gives new ratings to the guild leader, and to all players. These ratings are the core focus of those playing PVE since XP of course has its limits. And, these ratings are the core focus and purpose for those in a guild without its majority playing PvP.

A-Counters for
1. "qty of elite skills captured per member of guild"
2. "qty of boss's killed (1 kill per boss) per guild member"
3. "qty of runes/upgrades unlocked per guild member"
4. "qty of missions/bonus completed, with extra points for bonus per guild member"
5. "qty of ascended players per guild"
6. "qty of quests completed per guild member"
7. "qty of ascended profession combinations and derivatives of this kind of counter"
8. "percentage of maps explored and cleared per guild member"
9. "qty of deaths per member....yes, some incentive to NOT die"

B - Algorithms for (to prevent spamming the score in some way with the above counters)
1. "members amount of time spent questing with guild members"
2. "members amount of time spent questing with non members who become members"
3. "amount of time a member has been in the guild"
4. "percentage of party size that includes guild members and frequency of that"
5. "a check for all of the above counters where those events take place during the members active guild" vs. bringing those counters to the guild from another guild)

C - Outcome (what gets displayed to end users)
1. Trophy Room in the Guild Hall (shows each boss killed as a trophy, and which are left, which are the current target/mission selected by leaders/officers)
2. Adventurers Room (shows scroll or scribe on the wall of a listing of the NPC's which gave quests and that they have been completed)
3. Missions Room (similar to adventures room, but obviously with emphasis on missions/bonus's)
4. Members Room (shows a plaque with members/officers name and current mug shot) also shows ratings/scores for the various stated algorithms
5. As the mentioned rooms fill up, points are achived, those points can be exchanged for customization of the guild hall.... gold trim, custom banners, room upgrades ect. Anything that currently exists can be improved some how and as well things can be added as long as they don't effect the outcome of gvg battles (but they should still be visible in gvg).
6. In the Trophy Room, Adventures Room, Missions Room
Subcounters to visually display the outcome of the already stated algorithms. Such as a teamwork rating that uses the stated algorithms to show the teamwork score/points.

D - A couple of things that need to happen to support this...
1. More quests would be nice, and dynamic as well, based off what answers you gave the NPC's, somewhat like what NWN did (of course GW Chars don't have those attributes)
2. Ability to allow non members to tour the hall for a specific amount of time to see rooms and status of the guild
3. Lore, more of it....much more obscure and odd quests that tie into eachother over long periods of time, like Gwen. Make it really worth spending 2 hours to get to a place that has no outposts to take a brake at.

Obviously I can get much more granular than this.......but hey, I don't work for ArenaNet, and I need to actually get back to work before I get fired!

PS: These suggestions are of course for a major version release vs a patch...but...I think it could all be done with a patch as well, given enough time.
PSS: One small thing that can be done now, separate from this entire post....allow me to see current quests completed!

Marc Miles (Kirkland Wa)
InGame (Selden Meliorate)
Guild "Consort Of Simpatico Carnage" CoSC
http://www.guilduniverse.com/cosc/

I like it, it would definitly make the game more entertaining.

nice idea to reward pve guilds.

I'm all for improving the PvE experience so this gets my vote!

I like it, too. It would be nice to actually put things in the Guild Hall that make it.. You know.. Interesting to visit.

The name 'Guild Wars' refers to the storyline events that occured before the game storyline, described in the lore spread throughout the game. Even if you want to apply the name in game, guilds actually fighting toe to toe as happens in PvP is a far more accurate representation than guilds performing the functional equivalent of working in seperate, closed off rooms to see who can push a button the highest number of times in order to get higher on some ladder.

I don't like this proposition. For PvP, the ladder is a straightforward, simple system: if you can defeat another guild, you move up - if you lose, you move down. The guild at the top of the ladder is the guild with the best win record.

This PvE ladder system however quickly gets very complex, because it begs the question "what is the best way to play PvE as a guild?". Many guilds play PvE in different ways. There are role-playing guilds that spend hours in outposts just talking, there are casual guilds that focus on having fun at a leisurely pace, there are competitive guilds that try to unlock as much as possible for PvP through PvE, there are small, tight-knit guilds, just as there are massive guilds, etcetera. Why would one of these ways to play PvE be 'better' than the other?

But even if you ignore all that, and look at the practical side, things get very tricky. Let's say a player with a fully unlocked account joins a guild. Does that mean that guild suddenly shoots up in ranking? If yes, that means a couple of people with fully unlocked accounts could join up in one guild and pop up at #1 in the charts, and it would pretty much be impossible to compete with a guild like that as long as they're still killing bosses/questing/etc. If not (which would imply only achievements while being in the guild would count), that means only people with new accounts could contribute to their guild rank. Switching guilds would be right out, since you'd affect both your old and new guild in a negative fashion, etc.

Why is this such a complex problem? Because PvE is not competitive. Why is it not competitive? Because you can't keep getting better at it, it doesn't require you to increase your skill anymore once you've tackled a scripted challenge once. The moment you're able to kill a boss, the next 99 times aren't going to be a problem anymore, and any competition you can hold around that boils down to seeing who can repeat their tricks most often. A ladder for that would be meaningless, and therefore pointless.

Yes Silmor we all know that it's named that because of the story line and most of us problably don't really care why it was named that. If the "guild wars" ended do you mind telling me why the hell guilds still fight in their guild halls? How does that fit into the storyline? Do they do it just for the hell of it? Are they just skirmishing because they've nothing else to do? That's just...bland.

Though even though I don't like the current system of PvP I am not for this.

I'm not concerned about rank I'm concerned about fun and my ability to do something in this game, adding more titles and trophies to PvE isn't going to do anything but add some text to some guilds. I'm not all about that. See it's not that I enjoy just "PvE" or "farming" I just don't have anything else to do in the game, and that aggrivates me. Large scale PvP battles that don't end like "arena" battles, just battles that keep going, a war is what I'd say would be the best solution, more fun, even for PvE players I'd say who don't care about "rank" or "faction" just so that they can have fun feeling like their fighting for a side in a battle you can get immersed in.

While I don't really see a reason not to have it, a rank or title is what out of all this game has to offer, I'm least concerned about. I don't care if I'm last ranked or first ranked it's about being able to have fun that matters to me.

PieXags, I wouldn't mention it if people wouldn't incessantly keep bringing it up as a reason why their guild warrish suggestion or way of playing is somehow more validated.

You don't like being in a guild? It's called GUILD wars you know!
You don't like PvP? It's called guild WARS you know!
I want PvE competition! It's called GUILD WARS you know!

Then where are the GUILD WARS?

A group of 8 fighting another group of 8 seems pretty small. Hardly a war. Hardly a battle. It wouldn't even be considered much of a skirmish.

In the past, naturally. The Guild Wars took place long before the story starts.

I think this is a great idea. This would give some more depth to the PvE aspect of the game, and for those that don't like then just go to PvP. God knows you guys have a whole lot more than us PvEers, so give us something new. Adding more missions will eventually die, becuase they need some ideas for the expansion packs and you can only play a mission so many times until it gets boring. Adding titles and "ranks" to PvE would make it better, it would be just like the PvPers have except a little more complex. But hey we PvEers got time if we already beat the game and are tired of UW and Fissures.

LOL, thats all you are doing in PVP, its sick, new guilds dont stand a chance, the current guild ladder is weak and unbalanced.

You didnt read my post....you wouldve noticed that the ranking algorithms prevent that by counting mostly stats of a guild for what CURRENT guild members do, vs. what guild members bring with them into a guild.

No, this would give you incentive to stay IN a guild and not SWITCH guilds becuase switching would make all your progress not count as much in the new guild. Also, this would make your choice of which GUILD to join a more serious choice to make rather than responding to "Inverted Dutch Boy recruting, capes, hall, teamspeak, whisper me" and yes, I did see that guild name yesterday.

Your too funny, thats all your doing in PvP, same trick, same build you found online that eveyone else is using, same ol same ol. And you didnt fully read my post, ArenaNet can eaisly develop algorithms to make this system work and balanced by taking into account how much work is done within that users active guild and how often they quest with guild members and the like.

Now, I will agree with one thing, there are some overarching themes within guilds within the context of how they play PVE.........all of which can be balanced. And, if a guild is just hanging around chatting in an outpost all day long..........thats not actually playing the "Game", they might as well be in a Yahoo chat room is thats what they mostly do in GW (dont get me wrong, chat away as needed, just not all time, whats the point, pick up the phone).

Yes, we know that "GUILD WARS", and like I said, there is more to a war than fists to fists my friend! Which is the whole point of my post.

Sounds good. Here's another...

I had an idea that i suggested a few times at every opportunity and the opportunity again presents itself here....

A PvE arena. You alone, with friends, PUGs or a Guild team start in an arena and you face "Everlasting" waves of monster attacks.

The waves at the beginning are very simple, with just a few low level devourers etc but after 100+ waves, you would be facing critters of levels proportionate to yourselves.
Another 50+ waves later and you would be facing the toughest of the tough and beating these would force even more numbers upon you.

There would be no end to this onslaught and EVERY team will eventually end in defeat but would gain recognition for surviving up to certain waypoints.

We have HoH announcements for PvP so it would be fair to allow PvE people to gain recognition in the same manner.

Rewards for it? Hmmm, perhaps a customised max weapon of their choice (not like the scabby selection system from collectors) but being able to select for example, bowstring, grip, bow and a custom +% stat for it.

That's the basics of my "Praying to God for ArenaNet to make" idea.

Tactical DIllusions.............now that is a great suggestion, I like that eveyone dies in the end, its a matter of how far you made it that matters.

It wont happen soon, as far as I can see nothing is dynamic in the monster spawning that I have seen, its always the same, so with their current engine they would have to staticly script this out a long ways.

Also, to touch on Silmors comment some more.......ArenaNet can eaisly make their monsters much harder then they are now, make them more like the Korean guilds in the tombs. Some may actually be unbeatable, hey, thats a novel idea.........but thats so un hollywood of me to suggest that. ;-)

Selden, your original post was well thought out and gets my vote.
Tactical, the PvE Arena has been asked for by many and I hope Anet sees fit to give us one.

As for Silmor and Crispy are you guys related to Stealth Rider -aka- Mr.Negativity or his twin Desco(from another forum, I'm not sure I can mention here). Before you post a reply to a topic from henceforth, mayhaps you should at least Read "AND" Understand the WHOLE discussion before inputting your .02. OH! , and Crispy, Question: If the ONLY CONCEPT of Guild Wars was PvP why include PvE at all? See Answer below.


Just a small incerpt from the topic of a PvE arena between myself and Mr. Negativity (If you know where to look you could see the whole topic):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Rider
this cant work period, and not for any gameplay reason. look at my fitrst post. this whole concept is against everything GW stands for: teamwork, strategy, equal opportunity, etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensabah Nur
A) Only Arena Net can say any of our ideas "Won't Work/Can't Work"
B) We're the ones PAYING for it,it's our world therefore we can ATTEMPT to guide it. Obviously there is a desire for something like this as well Stealth.
C) I believe my suggestion of an arena ( s ) for this type of thing is more feasible than an area of map/town/outpost.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensabah Nur
Might I make this suggestion:

Instead of a Town/Outpost with however many players can be crammed in there. I suggest an Arena similar to the ones we have now where 16(current max players per arena) or maybe up to 20 players all pay an entry fee(say umm $50 or $100 gold) Then fight it out King of the Hill/Last Man Standing/Winner Take All style. Last Player to SURVIVE wins the pot,gets fame points etc. Maybe even have a Ladder for it? (No Drops)(Once you're dead you're ejected or lay there and watch the rest of the battle{make that players choice}) Very interested in hearing more thoughts on this type of Arena. Arigatou.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Rider
theres obviously no teamwork involved. the "fotm" chars i described above completely get rid of all strategy and any equal opportunity for any class to succeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensabah Nur
A) The whole concept of this type of battle is to get away from the "TEAMWORK" concept(As I stated above there is a desire for this,OBVIOUSLY)
B) As for FOTM(flavor of the month) Characters this would be a PvE character thing ( you are aware there is a PvE side to this game ? ) therefore you'd have to build up over time the character ( s ) you would wish to use in this type of battle so there would be no "quick builds" like PvP mode. Thus requiring a great deal more Strategy needing to be used.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Rider
really think Anet will implement it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensabah Nur
As much as I hope and believe Arena Net will implement any of the other ideas/suggestions that many people that "buy" their product request.

MORE:

Quote:
Originally Posted by desco
One question that needs to be addressed is WHY an area is desired to show off the "power" of your build.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensabah Nur
Umm because it is being requested? OR Why not? OR better yet, Why is an area desired to show off the "power" of your team?

Quote:
Originally Posted by desco
Thats like me playing rock, paper, scissors and saying "man let me show you how powerful rock is!"

I like to play PvE, but sometimes the PvE community makes me cringe. Most of the avid PvE posters come here and post an idea that totally goes against the concept of the game. I'm starting to agree with the "go back to WoW" attitude that a lot of the PvPers have.

The idea of a town under attack is a lot more feasable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensabah Nur
A)Question: If the ONLY CONCEPT of Guild Wars was PvP why include PvE at all?
Answer:a) Because Arena/NC Soft Knows that the term "Role Playing Game" is married to the Concept of PvE -aka- Role Playing.
b) Because of how many units(game discs) Arena/NCSoft projected it would sell to non PvP style players -aka- Role Players.
c)Because the crew at Arena (the ones that helped build and left Blizzard) are Role Players.
d)Without the PvE side of Guild Wars all that is left is a 3rd Person(first person if you zoom the camera in) Shooter using blades,axes etc. instead of guns.

I have never played WoW,never even wanted to beta test it or try it.

I had been waiting for Arena to release Guild Wars since the crew first announced they was creating "a game" no title, no screenshots. just a "MMORPG". Because I was a huge Diablo/Diablo 2 player and knew what these people are capable of creating.

As for "Concepts" here's one:Once "people" start "living" in a world those "people" start to "mold" that world to their liking.

(Hopefully now all you people that use the word "Concept" without thinking it through will stop)

For the record: I am a PvE player -aka- ROLE PLAYER, I created a PvP character at the request of my guild,attempted to use him once(at the request of my guild) and haven't attempted PvP since. It's not for me, I knew this from the beginning. I don't begrudge any PvP style,PvE style or combination style players of the way they want to play we each paid for our copy of the game we should be able to play it as we wish(Obviously within the parameters of the build ie: how Arena makes it work).
*EDIT*More for the record: If this type of area/arena was implemented by Arena Net. I highly doubt you would see me enter it with any of my characters to me it's just more PvP but a varied style.

"Although I may disapprove of what you say, I will defend to the death your right to say it'' Attributed to Voltaire. arigatou
*end Edit*

*Shakes his head and walks away mumbling: "Way too much animosity and contempt between the varying styles of players,reminds me of politicians and why they can barely get anything good accomplished." "Can't we all just get along?"

YET STILL MORE:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Rider
A) why not? how about because the game is based on teamplay and equal opportunity, as i said. figure out the rest, you obviously have an answer for all of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensabah Nur
Yes I most likely do, I answered this one before you asked it(twice as a matter of fact).

Quote(From Previous Post):
Originally Posted by Ensabah Nur
A) The whole concept of this type of battle is to get away from the "TEAMWORK" concept(As I stated above there is a desire for this,OBVIOUSLY).



Quote(From Previous Post):
Originally Posted by Ensabah Nur
As for "Concepts" here's one:Once "people" start "living" in a world those "people" start to "mold" that world to their liking.?"



Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Rider
B) this is NOT an MMORPG and can not be called one. it is best described as a "Massively Multiplayer Online Cooperative Play Real Time Strategy Action Role Playing Game." i urge you to find a better way to describe it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensabah Nur
1) I still see you have the MMORPG concept in there.
2)Yes ! ROLE PLAYING GAME and the request of this type of area is the "ROLE" that some people want to play just as you wish to play the "ROLE" you wish to play.
3) I agree it didn't turn out to be a "Massively" Multiplayer game, but it is very clearly a ROLE PLAYING GAME.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Rider
C) Anet being RPers-this has what to do with a 1v1 arena?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensabah Nur
Not much other than the fact that should they see this as a feasible request from a section of the people that buy their product, being Role Players and seeing the desire for this type of ROLE they may be inclined to implement it along with the thousands of other gameplay requests/suggestions they receive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Rider
D)please get back on topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensabah Nur
If you are refering to me , I have never left topic. Although I personally may never use this type of area/arena, I have seen/heard a desire for it from the players. Also I am not attempting so much to Champion the idea of this area/arena,but to Champion the ability of all of us to attempt to mold Guild Wars into the game we'd like to play. Just as I would Champion an idea from you Stealth that I felt would better Guild Wars.


SO IN SUMMATION: "Don't knock it until ya tried it."

alright, i was a little hasty, BUT! The game was not made to reward guilds for killing bosses, monsters OR finishing quests. The Game was made to reward Guilds for killing other Guilds and thats what it really comes down to. They will not make PvE Guilds a ladder because they arent doing anything amazing by killing a script. They ARE doing something amazing by killing 8 other players who can THINK and can react to certain things, because that is a lot harder to do. They Will NOT change anything to make PvE guilds have any guild status if they do NOT GvG. End of Story.

Well, I'm glad that I've found someone on this forum who is so enlightened that he can say without any qualms exactly WHAT the developers had in mind when they brought this game forth into existance.

Such knowledge is awe-inspiring. Perhaps I might even be able to ascertain the purpose of creation from him, but I won't get my hopes up.

Arigatou Shayul. Ristaron and PieXags well met. I need not add anything more.

"A closed mind is a wasted mind." -Unknown

Besides, sometimes the rinse-and-repeat strategies are even less fun and brainpower invoking than doing PVE. I like the Survival mode idea a LOT, especially if they just blitz in with little or no time to heal, and the mobs are randomized.