Signet of Invisibility (solution to griefers?) - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

John Bloodstone

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

Requiem Lords

R/Me

23 Jul 2005 at 14:41 - 1

I've seen a few people on this board complaining about griefers/idiots in their party that enjoy nothing more than to ruin the experience for everyone else by running off and aggroing huge groups of monsters, only to return and get everyone killed. I have devised a *hopefully* elegant solution which would pretty much eliminate this problem, and best of all it has nothing to do with kicking

I propose that every class have access to the:

Signet of Invisibility

Signet. All nearby party members are made invisible to monsters for 30 seconds. Party members under the invisibility effect cannot be attacked by monsters, but they move at only 25% max speed. Monsters will return to their patrols if no visible party members remain. This skill ends prematurely if the player attacks (for that player only). [All skills are disabled while under the effect of invisibility]

Cast Time: 3 seconds (interrupted if the caster takes damage)
Recharge: 180 seconds

The beauty of this is that if somebody does run off and aggro a huge group, the rest of the party can huddle together and cast Invisibility. The runner will die, the monsters will return to their patrols and the game continues as normal. Abuse is significantly reduced due to the 3 second easily interrupted cast, meaning that it can't be used just before the party gets annhiliated. Running speed is very slow so it can't be used for runs (ie droknars forge run). Also, if anyone decides to attack while invisible, the spell ends for that person only, since everyone else is invisible, they will likely die.

Opinions?

[edit: added skills disabled]

corax5

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2005

Ye olde England.

23 Jul 2005 at 14:58 - 2

It sounds like a nice idea, but I reckon this would just make things like droknar rushing, and chest farming with bots easier, which would be very bad, especially the latter.

Imp

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2005

Novum Igneus [NI]

Rt/

23 Jul 2005 at 15:37 - 3

also the whole pvp thing.

Darksci

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2005

London

Lords Of The Immortal [Loti]

R/W

23 Jul 2005 at 15:44 - 4

i'd imagine only creatures would be effected.

Grunge

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Jul 2005

Me/Mo

23 Jul 2005 at 16:29 - 5

Sounds like a good idea to me. If someone runs off ahead, the team I'm in generally just runs back and lets them get slaughtered. Or quits, and reforms in town, leaving the griefer to get killed.

Swarnt Brightstar

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Mongolia!... But sadly Florida

Rulers of Mythology <ROM>

R/Mo

23 Jul 2005 at 16:34 - 6

I like the idea, and no prob. with droknars, or chest farmers except if the enemy is in a small group.... But it's a really good idea! Although it shouldnt take up a skill slot y'know! Honestly if you dont get a griefer it's like bringin' a cap signet w/o using it!

John Bloodstone

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

Requiem Lords

R/Me

23 Jul 2005 at 17:28 - 7

Let me address some issues:

Droknars runners and chest farmers *might* get some use from the skill, but the huge recharge time would prevent them from using it an awful lot; would you want to keeping waiting 3 minutes for a skill to recharge? also, the 25% max speed means that you will probably walk 10 feet before it runs out. That's enough to escape a mob, but not practical for a run.

For PVP it would essentially be useless; I realise that all skills are supposed to be available for use in pve AND pvp, but lets face it, some are so biased to one side or the other that it probably wouldn't make a difference.

As for the skill slot, I guess you'd just have to agree with your party beforehand that one of you takes the Signet of Invis instead of resurrection - as long as it's not the griefer

speedtouch

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2005

Canada

Mighty Crusade

R/Mo

23 Jul 2005 at 18:09 - 8

What would happen if your invible and you pick up a in game object like a arming crank from that mission in ascalon.Will it just disappear?Will it attract the monsters?

John Bloodstone

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

Requiem Lords

R/Me

23 Jul 2005 at 18:23 - 9

For arguments sake, lets say an action, such as picking up an item, would remove the effect.

Arcador

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

--

R/N

23 Jul 2005 at 18:37 - 10

There was a mesmer skill for invisibilty in the alpha I think.It get removed pretty fast.

For PvE it can be made with similar effect - like Great Sanctiory - movable ward effect or similar thing. You move slow as hell but monsters cant attack you , you cant attack either.

Sniper22

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

23 Jul 2005 at 19:46 - 11

Good idea, but there are two things wrong.

1) The party members who are invinsible shouldn't be able to attack, instead of having the invicibility end when they attack.

2) It can't be a signet if it costs energy.

Weezer_Blue

Elite Guru

Join Date: Feb 2005

Just a Box in a Cage

Hurry Up The Cakes [Oven]

23 Jul 2005 at 19:49 - 12

I'd just get echo, arcane echo, and this, and have the best running build ever. Hmm... R/Me, Signet, Echo, Arcane Echo, Storm Chaser, etc...

John Bloodstone

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

Requiem Lords

R/Me

23 Jul 2005 at 19:59 - 13

Weezer: Can you echo a signet? hm, didn't know that. Echo lasts for 20 secs though doesn't it? Therefore the max time you'd get is 50 seconds of protection and then wait for another 2:10. Your Storm chase would do nothing because your speed is capped at 25%. You bring up a good point that I hadn't considered though, damn you

Sniper22:

1) I suggested that the spell ends when attacking to stop people from griefing by effectively shutting down their team just to piss them off. Skills shouldnt be able to be used malevolently.

2)Yes, I made a mistake with the energy. It was sort of an arbitrary number anyway. I'll fix it now.

Weezer_Blue

Elite Guru

Join Date: Feb 2005

Just a Box in a Cage

Hurry Up The Cakes [Oven]

23 Jul 2005 at 20:00 - 14

I'm pretty sure Signets count as skills too, so you can use Arcane Echo to copy Echo, and then use Echo and the copy of Echo and get 3 signets of whatever.

John Bloodstone

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

Requiem Lords

R/Me

23 Jul 2005 at 20:05 - 15

Maybe the solution should be to disable all skills while invisible, that should work, right?

Rieselle

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Melbourne, Australia

E/Rt

23 Jul 2005 at 20:08 - 16

I'd prefer a "body tackle" emote, which allows you to grab the offending idiot by the neck and stop him from going anywhere :P

QuixotesGhost

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

23 Jul 2005 at 22:49 - 17

Worst idea ever. The new chances of getting a group that actually fought instead of running through crap like idots: 1:10000000000000000000000000000000000000000.

Tough area? Use Strategy? Tactics? A Plan? Nope, just run through it with the signet of invisibility. Fun Fun Fun.

Miss Innocent

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

I wander.

Mo/R

23 Jul 2005 at 22:59 - 18

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Bloodstone

Let me address some issues:

Droknars runners and chest farmers *might* get some use from the skill, but the huge recharge time would prevent them from using it an awful lot; would you want to keeping waiting 3 minutes for a skill to recharge? also, the 25% max speed means that you will probably walk 10 feet before it runs out. That's enough to escape a mob, but not practical for a run.

For PVP it would essentially be useless; I realise that all skills are supposed to be available for use in pve AND pvp, but lets face it, some are so biased to one side or the other that it probably wouldn't make a difference.

As for the skill slot, I guess you'd just have to agree with your party beforehand that one of you takes the Signet of Invis instead of resurrection - as long as it's not the griefer

I'm sure other people say the same sort of thing, but running really only involves running a long way, maybe some monk enchants and a few skills that you use when monsters get on you. This fits the bill perfectly; 3 secs isn't a "long time" if the monsters aren't already targeting you, or if they don't have interrupt skills.

It's a cute idea, but that particular execution doesn't seem practical.

ICURADik

Banned

Join Date: May 2005

23 Jul 2005 at 23:08 - 19

The problem: 8 people with the signet, running through entire areas without fighting.

Mariena Feladon

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

Netherlands

Silhouette Stars [sil]

Mo/N

23 Jul 2005 at 23:37 - 20

Do people actually read the original post?

It lasts for 30 seconds.

You move at 25% speed.

It takes 3 minutes to recharge.

How can you POSSIBLY run entire areas without spending 2 hours per area? I really don't see why anyone would even bother to spend so much time to run (walk?) an area. Why not just get some sprint skills and do it within 10 minutes?

Quote:

The problem: 8 people with the signet, running through entire areas without fighting.

I thought running never included fighting? That's what the current Droknar's Forge runners do, right?

The Warbringer

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

23 Jul 2005 at 23:46 - 21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mariena Feladon

Do people actually read the original post?

It lasts for 30 seconds.

You move at 25% speed.

It takes 3 minutes to recharge.

How can you POSSIBLY run entire areas without spending 2 hours per area? I really don't see why anyone would even bother to spend so much time to run (walk?) an area. Why not just get some sprint skills and do it within 10 minutes?

I thought running never included fighting? That's what the current Droknar's Forge runners do, right?

Quoted for truth. Also, using this spell to run is the equivalent of running at 5% speed permanently. So yeah.. I wouldnt want this guy running me

'

So in turn you could die 20 times and still get into the zone faster. Anyone who would want to use this to run is insane.

SisterMercy

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2005

Sisters of Mercy

24 Jul 2005 at 00:17 - 22

I'm still hoping for Restore Party

QuixotesGhost

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

24 Jul 2005 at 04:26 - 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by SisterMercy

I'm still hoping for Restore Party

Quoted for Relevance.

KelvinC

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

ANZ

24 Jul 2005 at 09:46 - 24

The idea is good, however it must be programmed so both teams will not see that invisible person. So the other team can't map hack. This is technically quite challenging to code. So I don't know whether it is implementable.

Aaaaagh

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

24 Jul 2005 at 09:50 - 25

Quote:

Originally Posted by KelvinC

The idea is good, however it must be programmed so both teams will not see that invisible person. So the other team can't map hack. This is technically quite challenging to code. So I don't know whether it is implementable.

Huh? Teams, it says usable for mobs only.

Does oath shot recharge sigs? If so, this wont work. Its wierd, and Im sure it could be exploited somehow (oath shot is my best idea atm).

John Bloodstone

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

Requiem Lords

R/Me

24 Jul 2005 at 10:10 - 26

To be honest it was the concept that I was hoping people would comment on, some people seem to have just dismissed the idea out of hand based on a small detail that could be changed easily. (not everyone though I might add)

One possible alteration might be to just make it a one shot signet like the resurrection signet. That way people wouldn't abuse it by taking a signet each in an 8 strong team.

Another possible alteration would be to make it so that anyone carrying the signet when someone else activates it has their signet disabled for 3 minutes also.

My point is that the fine details could be worked out and tested for flaws. ANet would likely have their own idea for the specifics of the skill anyway.

Ultimate_Gaara

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

BC, Canada.. how aboot that eh?

24 Jul 2005 at 11:38 - 27

well it could work.. with some tweeking.. like some more brutal side effects like lose all energy and energy regen while in affect, can only be used once per mission, all spells are disabled for 60 seconds, go to jail do not pass go do not collect $200.. you know make people really have to make some hard decisions

QuixotesGhost

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

24 Jul 2005 at 13:29 - 28

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Bloodstone

To be honest it was the concept that I was hoping people would comment on, some people seem to have just dismissed the idea out of hand based on a small detail that could be changed easily. (not everyone though I might add)

One possible alteration might be to just make it a one shot signet like the resurrection signet. That way people wouldn't abuse it by taking a signet each in an 8 strong team.

Another possible alteration would be to make it so that anyone carrying the signet when someone else activates it has their signet disabled for 3 minutes also.

My point is that the fine details could be worked out and tested for flaws. ANet would likely have their own idea for the specifics of the skill anyway.

I'm sorry. I can't understand why noone is seeing problem with this, it's not so much areas as it is missions. Iron Mines for example. Every single party will now have someone that just switches on the invisiblity signet and runs directly to the seer. You don't need the invisibilty sig to be effective 24/7 for runners to abuse it, just long enough for them to get through that one tight spot. I mean every mission seems to have one or two packs of mobs that are just tough to get past. With the sig, one guy can sprint past them undetected and warp the entire party to him by activating the next cutscene.

You don't need a safety net like this becuase you already have one, the Resurection Shrine. Whole party is ressed, all the previous monsters you killed are still killed, and you can just walk back to where you died. Why do you need something abusable like the invisibility signet on top of it? You implement this and you'll never play a full mission ever again.

John Bloodstone

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

Requiem Lords

R/Me

24 Jul 2005 at 15:11 - 29

QuixotesGhost:

No offence, but please read the first post again thoroughly. You seem to insist that this skill would be abused by runners, but I clearly stated that the speed is limited to 25%. What runner in his right mind is going to use a skill which caps his speed to a complete crawl for 30 seconds? - even worse if it disables all his skills in the process. Add to that the 3 minutes recharge and I assure you there are far better skills out there if you want to be a runner!

As for your shrine comment, what about missions that take you straight back to the town when you all die? You'd rather have a griefer ruin an hour long mission than pack a safety skill that could potentially save the mission? You wouldn't even need to take it if you were playing with trusted players (ie guild mates)

Silmor

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2005

24 Jul 2005 at 16:45 - 30

I wouldn't want anyone on my team who reduces his contribution to the team by sacrificing one of his skill slots because he doesn't trust me or the rest of the group. If that's the kind of distrust he carries into the game, he should party up with friends and guildmates, or take henchmen along.

That said, any skill that can save you from a large mob of monsters is way overpowered. I'm not talking about running or anything, I'm talking about fighting one group of monsters, another patrol comes nearby, you realize you're not going to make it, use Signet, crawl to safety. No other skill even comes close to this level of full-party protection.

Then there's the ability of any self-respecting griefer to stay out of trouble himself - he can just wait for the Signet to wear off, and dump the next train in the cooldown period. End result: party is dead anyway, party stood less of a chance because people wasted a skill slot on the Signet.

In fact, it even gives the griefer a powerful weapon to use. The Signet probably won't protect NPCs (since they're not part of the party), so he can hit it right when there's a large mob around what you're supposed to protect, the monsters will have no choice but to focus on that target, and the mission is ruined.

This is a community problem, and I don't believe an in-game mechanic will solve this without causing more troubles on the side. Griefers will find a way, so such an elaborate device will either go unused or be abused.

Weezer_Blue

Elite Guru

Join Date: Feb 2005

Just a Box in a Cage

Hurry Up The Cakes [Oven]

24 Jul 2005 at 17:17 - 31

I'm sorry, this idea is horrible, because the signet might as well be called the "Signet of Uber Runner-ness".

John Bloodstone

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

Requiem Lords

R/Me

24 Jul 2005 at 18:09 - 32

Silmore, that is by far and away the best response in this thread. You actually took the time to explain why it wouldn't work rather than jump to stupid conclusions. Mucho respect for that.

The only point i'll bring up is that contrary to what you think, this *wasn't* designed to be an elaborate device, quite the opposite. It would be a single signet that you could either bring or not bring, rather than some of the incredibly complicated solutions i've seen some people come up with - such as rating systems, vote kicks etc.

Also I am slightly disappointed that nobody who disagreed with the idea allowed for even a modicum of leeway in making the idea work - even to the point of suggesting something similar but much better, but rather just rejecting it out of hand. Oh well...

Mo/R9

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

Gold Coast, Australia

Mo/R

25 Jul 2005 at 00:55 - 33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

I'm sorry, this idea is horrible, because the signet might as well be called the "Signet of Uber Runner-ness".

So moving at 25% of normal movement speed is "running" is it? You would be lucky to get out of range of most mobs before the sig wore off if you were moving that slowly.

GW Insomniac

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2005

N/W

25 Jul 2005 at 09:13 - 34

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Bloodstone

I've seen a few people on this board complaining about griefers/idiots in their party that enjoy nothing more than to ruin the experience for everyone else by running off and aggroing huge groups of monsters, only to return and get everyone killed. I have devised a *hopefully* elegant solution which would pretty much eliminate this problem, and best of all it has nothing to do with kicking

I propose that every class have access to the:

Signet of Invisibility

Signet. All nearby party members are made invisible to monsters for 30 seconds. Party members under the invisibility effect cannot be attacked by monsters, but they move at only 25% max speed. Monsters will return to their patrols if no visible party members remain. This skill ends prematurely if the player attacks (for that player only). [All skills are disabled while under the effect of invisibility]

Cast Time: 3 seconds (interrupted if the caster takes damage)
Recharge: 180 seconds

The beauty of this is that if somebody does run off and aggro a huge group, the rest of the party can huddle together and cast Invisibility. The runner will die, the monsters will return to their patrols and the game continues as normal. Abuse is significantly reduced due to the 3 second easily interrupted cast, meaning that it can't be used just before the party gets annhiliated. Running speed is very slow so it can't be used for runs (ie droknars forge run). Also, if anyone decides to attack while invisible, the spell ends for that person only, since everyone else is invisible, they will likely die.

Opinions?

[edit: added skills disabled]

It's a nice idea...but far too open to abuse from the very people it's supposed to combat.
If a griefer's only intention is to ruin the whole experience for other team members,by training huge groups of mobs onto the rest of the party (deliberately or otherwise),what's stopping said griefer(s) from using the skill for themselves?, the outcome would be the same either way - party destroyed...experience ruined.
Surely selecting a better group to start with would be a better option.

super dooper

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

W/

25 Jul 2005 at 09:41 - 35

I can see a few ways that it could be abused, and running isn't one of them.. haha. That tackle emote would be great though ;P

EmperorTippy

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2005

25 Jul 2005 at 10:09 - 36

I get around griefers with my good old trusty Unyielding Aura in all quests and builds when I don't absoultly need another elite

John Bloodstone

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

Requiem Lords

R/Me

25 Jul 2005 at 11:12 - 37

Quote:

Originally Posted by GW Insomniac

It's a nice idea...but far too open to abuse from the very people it's supposed to combat.
If a griefer's only intention is to ruin the whole experience for other team members,by training huge groups of mobs onto the rest of the party (deliberately or otherwise),what's stopping said griefer(s) from using the skill for themselves?, the outcome would be the same either way - party destroyed...experience ruined.
Surely selecting a better group to start with would be a better option.

Ok, in reverse order

Yes, selecting a better group would be a far better option without a doubt. However, there is a definate element of risk when going with a PUG - a risk which some people may consider taking along some *insurance* is appropriate.

What stops the griefer from using the skill themselves is that firstly, they can't aggro if they have the signet active at the time, secondly, if they aggro first, they have to stand stock still whilst taking 0 damage for 3 (or possibly more) seconds. I know of few monsters that are that forgiving.

SisterMercy

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2005

Sisters of Mercy

25 Jul 2005 at 12:30 - 38

A couple of things: although there have been a few intentional griefers, I think the vast majority of griefing is from uber-carelessness, so we have to look at potential abuses from that perspective. We'll have a lot of good ol' Kaptann Klutz racing in circles aggroing everything, and then when the battle goes poorly, he turns invisible, runs away, and says to the team, "what a bunch of losers," etc. In other words, it's another thing he can fall back on so that he'll never have to wake up, figure out what he's doing, and learn strategy.

Invisibility came up before, and I believe that anything of this nature will unbalance the current game, or at least is significant enough of a change that it will alienate much of the PvPers out there (even if it can be balanced). If Invisibility is introduced, it's better kept for the expansion, which will have to be balance-tested anyway.

Invisibility is not undetectability. Your footprints will still appear. You can still be heard. Your capacity to aggro and the ability to hit you would be reduced, but not eliminated. Casters who can hit targets they don't see (around corners, etc) should still be able to hit you. When you attack or use most (or all?) skills with visual effects, you reveal your location, and therefore invisibility would end. As such, there should also be an aura for PvPers to still be able to spot you.

Otherwise, this would be a vastly overabused tool.

QuixotesGhost

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

25 Jul 2005 at 14:21 - 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Bloodstone

Silmore, that is by far and away the best response in this thread. You actually took the time to explain why it wouldn't work rather than jump to stupid conclusions. Mucho respect for that.

The only point i'll bring up is that contrary to what you think, this *wasn't* designed to be an elaborate device, quite the opposite. It would be a single signet that you could either bring or not bring, rather than some of the incredibly complicated solutions i've seen some people come up with - such as rating systems, vote kicks etc.

Also I am slightly disappointed that nobody who disagreed with the idea allowed for even a modicum of leeway in making the idea work - even to the point of suggesting something similar but much better, but rather just rejecting it out of hand. Oh well...

Jump to Stupid conclusions... sigh..... I bother to type a semi-long, reasoned, post with my complaints listed against it and that's the thanks I get...

Let me explain it, again. I already know through in-game experience how much the propensity for "RUSH RUSH RUSH! GOT TO GET THROUGH THE GAME AS QUICK AS TEH POSSIBLE!" is. Then you implement this. How can runners abuse this?

RUN RUN RUN
RUN RUN RUN
*Damn picked up too much aggro or theres a tough spot ahead*
* Sig of Invisbility even though it's 25% speed*
Phew, okay I'm good.
RUN RUN RUN
RUN RUN RUN

I am so sick of runners ruining my game expericance by worming there way into regular parties then announcing halfway through "k, guys I'm gonna run, k!" .... "but but but.... I wanna fight stuff...

" You implement this and you are increasing thier chances of sucess and giving them further incentive to do it. And reducing my chaces of finding a group without a moron runner in it.

In my experience, Greifers are a far less common occurance than people on this forum make them out to be. I've encountered them in PvP, but I don't think I've ever met a true-honest-to-goodness griefer in PvE, morons sure, but never a griefer. In this instance, I believe we have a case of the cure being worse then the disease.

John Bloodstone

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

Requiem Lords

R/Me

25 Jul 2005 at 18:25 - 40

Sorry quixotes, but you have to admit, your first post in this thread doesn't hold much credibility - though the third was better

OK then, please explain how someone with a huge group of angry monsters behind him can afford to sit still for 3 seconds (or perhaps longer, it's only a number) and expect to use this signet without taking any damage at all? I do see your point, but running abuse was the first thing I had in mind to eliminate when I suggested it.

I don't mind if someone has a really valid reason why this wont work, but personally, I don't think running is one of them.

edit: I suppose something like whirling defence might help with runners using this sig, but it's still a big risk, and how many times are you going to do it before you get caught unlucky and are struck?