The Myth of the 'Two-Monks'

Hello guild warriors

I've played 4 characters through the grind. Of all, I love my monk the most. I am probably best with my monk. I enjoy being the group healer. I'd consider myself to be a good group-healer.

The following commentary is primarily directed at the 12-year-olds that constitute the predominant segment of GW players. I don't mind healing the W/Mo with mending because I love playing my monk (did I mention that already?). Anyways, here's my beef. An overwhelming majority of players seem to believe that having 2 monks is essential in order to play the later missions and fiss/uw. Well I say bollucks!

My build is fairly good. I use ascetic armor with the collector healing ankh, which gives me an energy of 65 (also level 16 healing/13 divine). Combined with word of healing, even when my party is being ganked by fissure mobs, I still find it is more than managable to keep everyone alive and fighting. So what's with the 2-monk need? Heck, the above example doesn't even take into account secondary monks.

I will even go as far as saying that having the second monk actually reduces the effectiveness of a party. Having a blood necro with well of power, or a minionater, or a shutdown mesmer, is infinitely more beneficial than having a second healer. So to all those noobs that play GW (that MUST have 4 W/mo, 2 E/mo, and 2 Monks on every team), stop being dumbarses! The game is NOT hard. Drop that second monk! Get that necro or mesmer or ranger that everyone ignores! You'll be much more successful!

Peace.

Be more friendly in your future posts or they will just be deleted.

Well, in a party of eight, I can at least understand why they want it. But a few days ago when I was helping a guildmate at Elona Reach, the group meant we should get another healer. Argh, I'm healing a full henchmen party well enough to succeed there, why should we need another healer in a party of 6 human players who are way better in dishing out damage? Especially with 6 members another monk greatly reduces your damage potential and therefore makes the second monk a bit more useful (less damage = more damage received = more healing needed ).

There have been countless threads exactly like this one. If you want to voice your opinions about this use those threads, and quit wasting everyones time with the same old bs that gets posted every week.

Also, it is probably not the best idea to try and get your point across by calling people names. You are acting exactly like a 12 year old punk, and really discrediting any point you even remotely tried to get across.....

Removed reference to deleted material.

People look for 2 monks for FoW/UW missions because first of all, you need at least one monk to be part protection, and second of all, it's always good to have an extra monk, since accidents happen and if you slip up just once it will cost you hours of work.

Why do you aim this at 12 year olds i am 13 and i aint no dumbass fair enough i aint the smartest kid in the world but y blame this on 12 year olds.I understand that alot of 12 year olds play and such but come on quit whining and start playing who cares if there are 2 monks or 8 tbh it doesnt make a donkeys difference.

Two monks are definitely not needed. Actually, after I started playing a Mesmer, I discovered that interrupting and disabling enemies are sometimes much more effective than healing. If they cannot attack you, then you don't need healing. Casting shatter hex or smite hex on a conjure phantasm is virtually the same as casting healing breeze in terms of the amount of damage that gets negated/healed (sure they can cast phantasm again, but i'll shatter it again, and each time I shatter I do well over 100 damage to all enemies that the warrior is tanking, now I am preventing damage AND doing as much as an Elementalist). Also, warriors who use more stances or other more defensive builds (such as a W/Mo using protection or a W/Mo who removes conditions/hexes that are cast on him) can afford to have one less monk and an extra Elementalist or something to pick up on the damage. In fact, a highly defensive warrior, an elementalist, and a monk (along with the rest of the party) is probably much more efficient in terms of damage output and the ability to survive than an offensive warrior and two monks healing him.

I don't know much about necros and rangers because I haven't played them yet, but I'm sure that they have many skills that are well worth it like the Mesmer has. My theory on why people insist on having two monks is that there are too many people who play the game poorly. I hate it when Warriors try to be the main source of damage. A good Warrior generally cannot choose which monster he wants to fight. Of course everybody wants to kill the enemy healer quickly, but a warrior who tries to do it will expose his entire party to the enemy, a good warrior will try to block the enemy monster from reaching the casters (since the warrior will most likely be hitting other highly armored warriors, it's probably more efficient to just make a defensive build). You may get the enemy caster as an offensive warrior, but you may also lose your own caster and stacking up those -15% death penalties is not a good way to win a mission (winning the mission is not about winning one fight it's winning ALL the fights in the entire mission). People are too used to the notion of each individual trying to do as much direct damage as possible without regard for the teammates that are taking damage (or sometimes without regard of how much damage that they are taking themselves, leaving that responsibility to the monk). Because of this style of play people overlook characters like Mesmers. I find that my Mesmer can prevent alot of damage and deal alot of damage indirectly. Think about how much damage the Mesmer indirectly deals when she disables the enemy healer immediately when the battle starts (if the enemy is prevented from healing 100hp, that's essentially the same as doing 100 damage). Also, when a Mesmer places Empathy on 3 different targets, making them take 26 damage whenever they attack, that adds up to alot more damage than most other characters can do. People need to stop being so ignorant about the Mesmer, Rangers, and Necros.

Thank you for reinforcing my point so gracefully noblepaladin.

Sorry if I offended anyone. My sarcasm boils over whenever I post on a forum.

Anyways, my basic point was that a good party should not be taking enough dmg to warrant 2 primary healers in the first place. Even a scrappy PUG shouldn't have a problem, so long as the group leader only accepts people that are useful (ie, get that shutdown mesmer when he advertises! Don't get a 5th warrior, etc).

having 2 monks is called "being cautious"
you know, just in case you get your ass kicked by surprise

Yes... but... when you're in a PUG, I'm not sure I trust everyone to do their job well enough to support only 1 monk, better safe than sorry IMO.


Funny story, I was in FoW with my mesmer using echo--> shatter hex for 148x2 damage. The mobs kept dropping like flies around the hexed warrior who was tanking when this happened:

Ele: "Man, I'm such an Uber nuker."
Group: "Yeah man, I've never seen someone kill those guys so quick, you're 1337, what's your fire at?"
Ele: "15 man"

Me: ...

<sigh>

-Diomedes

can people stop complaining the way people play and just have fun? If you don't like PUG with 2 monks, go make a party yourself.

I'm not going to bother quoting you guys...
but I'll just say that the problem people usually
have with the 'other' classes is that a good mesmer
(or whatever) is usually hard to find... as hard or harder
than a good monk... I've been in PUGs that 2 monks couldnt keep alive no matter what... I've also been in a group where (in abaddons mouth) we had 1 monk... that quit after he capped a skill. Luckily.. the rest of the team had some sort of self heals... (troll unguent or other) and we actually beat the rest of the mursaat bosses, and the mission without him.

Too many people who play have only limited understanding of most of their skills.... and usually pick a combo that will allow them to do the most damage(in their mind), not necessarily what would be best for the team. I have yet to see a team coordinate their skills before a mission, unless I was on my necro, and another necro joined.. then I asked what they were running.. and tried to make sure I was doing something different.

As far as monks go however... I usually prefer having the healer and protector henchmen in my group.. they're much more reliable on a mission to mission basis.

Your post tells me one thing...

You have been playing in too many (guild most likely) orginized groups.

For the rest of the masses, PUGs are a way of life and most of us are forced to make a decision at the inception of the group. That is A) Are there potential retards lurking behind those toons who warrent a backup/protect monk or B) Is there a potential retard behind that MONK that warrents a backup/protect monk.

Opinions are relative to your own personal experiance, they are kinda funny that way.

rofl...on a similar note I was running through Frost Gate again to pick up the bonus and I was using a Fiery Bow and coupling Barrage + Tigers Fury...the warrior kept bragging about how quickly he was pwning mobs and how great he was....and all I could think was "it probably helps you alot that I'm hitting each of the monsters for 60+ dmg every second, huh?"

Lol i know how you feel although I use blood is power, blood ritual and well of blood to support my team.

Some nutcase warrior: WOW MY SKILLS OWNS LÖOLS I NEVER DIE!!!!!!!!

Monk and mesmer: WOW WE WERE THE LEET NOTHING CAN STOP US CAUSE WE ARE PWNERS

I tend to avoid parties with 4 warriors, because to me that is not a balanced team. I like a balanced team, 3 warriors max. I like to see a little bit of everything.

If you have two monks, they can work very well in tandem. I (a monk) was in a group with another monk, and we'd alternate casting Aegis, so when one was dying the other threw it up, which cuts down the cool down time for the spells. With another set of 8 skills it's also more effective... the other monk might have Heal Party, I would have Mend Condition, so if the team is getting slammed by a group that has Cripple, Poison, Bleeding, etc... I can spam Mend Condition while the other monk heals the party.

It all depends on your party combination.

It's the usual BS you see on line. Healing Monks are there to a] negate routine battle damage, and b] cover up tactical errors. "Negating routine battle damage" is a term I choose for the action of figuring that the mobs will be dealing X amount of damage per second, and then subtract the self-healing I expect the other party members will be doing. From this, you can figure how many times you'll be hitting heal party, or spot healing individuals.

From that, you add about 100% to make up for mistakes, and ensure 400% more for spot heals. You can get how many healers you need from this. If you're out with a protection monk who, on average, reduces the damage by about 40%, and can still smite the hell out of stuff, then you're definately helping yourself out on all fronts.

If you're in a PUG with no coordination, then you don't know what kind of damage reduction these guys can do, then you're much better off assuming 0 damage negation, and overestimating the DPS your team will get. Sometimes that means grabbing an extra healer to save you re-doing whatever it is you're up to. If you can't do that, a couple of appropriate protection spells would greatly help out.

How or where did you get the ankh that gives you 65 energy as I would like something like this for my Monk not just for healing but smiting and protection?Thanks

You have not been playing with enough.

The game has been out 3 months; do you not have a group of guildies or friends that have demonstated ability? Game with them. That is the true joy of the game, for me, is working together with people you enjoy gaming with. For the PUG unfriendly missions (Elona, Thunderhead, Fissure, Underworld) it makes those missions fun.

If you get in a group with guildies/friends you see the makeup of the party doesn't matter as much.

If you have a mission you are having trouble with please message me and we can set up a time to run it; I believe that my guildmates would be happy to help.

everytime I work of the gaul to stomach the shitty cape guild-whatver-you-wanna-call-it has and join a guild, I find myself leaving the guild the first time I do a guild mission based entirely on the fact that they all sucked....

Search the forum for collectors... there was a map and details in a thread. The Ankh gives +27 energy.

well i agree it is annoying having to wait for a second monk to come along, but personaly as a monk i feel a lot more confotable if there is another person backing up my healing (in 8 people teams), not really to heal the party, but to heal me because i never have enough energy to heal everyone and myself over and over...

but i agree, people need to pay more attention to the unsung heros, necros, mesmers, and rangers totaly take the cake of awesomeness

"need one more monk" = "please kick me, i suck"

^^^ LOL! So true!

All it needs is a balanced team... as others have said, if you limit the amount of damage being done, you don't need lots of healers.

Still, I'm happy as the only monk in an 8-man team when a necro joins saying he has well of power or blood ritual as I know I'm having an easy day!

I can't find it in the thread if you or others know plase let me and someone else is looking for it as well.Thanks.

Yes, you can have one monk if all goes according to plan. But we all know that it generally doesn't go according to plan. Especially considering some of the groups in fow and uw. Someone lags/someone leaves/too much agro/someones a noob, are all too real events that occur down there.

its just too bad so many people are focused on monks and eles that necros and mesmers basicly get ignored... the only time played with a necro he was a minion master and he wanted me to heal his minions, so i had to heal 6 people plus like 15 minions and a pet.. and hero.. too many people are focusing on needing one too many monks, we need more energy helping necros

I am now playing a monk,... but I can tell you that I have run Desert missions with NO monks... that is right no monks.

If people play missions well they can all heal themselves just fine.

<looks for large ball of holy flame>

The idea of needing a second backup monk is wrong. The first monk is the backup in case the warrior fails to tank correctly (ie. he gets hexed, or blinded, etc) and if the Mesmer or other classes fail to prevent such situations from happening. Prevention is far superior to healing damage after it is done. This is especially true in a pick up group. In a pick up group you should take care of yourself and rely on others as little as possible (and even heal others if needed, that is what I do often when I play as a W/Mo). If everybody plays with this mentality then groups would be a lot better. I'm not saying all Mesmers are good, a lot of people don't know how to use them well. But a good Mesmer will be much more efficient (in terms of dealing damage + preventing damage) than a monk can heal.

What I find more silly is people insisting that 2 healers are needed in the 4v4 arena so they can 'help each other'. Seriously, having 2 healers on the team severely cripples your damage / shutdown potential. And every time I am with another healing monk in a group of 4, I end up babysitting them and wasting all my energy on them just to watch them die anyway when there is no energy left.

Did all ascenscion missions with 1 monk (me) and in all the missions some1 left so at end team was only 5 people.


Even worse for Bloodstone Fen, started full team, did bonus and in the end only 3 people stayed and finished the mission (W/Mo, N/Me Ibelieve and me on my Mo/N)

Given good players you can survive without a monk (I have been into fissure/UW like this and been successful.) However it requires a sense of the battlefield most players don't have. Competent players can get along fine with 1 monk. Personally in fissure I like a two monk build for flexibility. This way one monk can dabble in smiting. Smiting decimates stuff down there.

The incompetent party build is very popular for a reason though, it is extremely easy to do. 3-4 W/Mos self heal and output poor damage, 2-3 fire eles drop high damage nukes, 1-2 monks try to heal. You have your roles and they are very clearly defined. Tank, nuke, or heal, even a complete moron can't get confused. Ask most players what a necro does and they will be at a loss. Ask them what a mesmer, ranger, or necro should do and they don't have a clue. Heck, ask them what a water ele is good for and they can't give you an answer. They simply can't see beyond the raw numbers. Additionally most players prefer an easy to do build with less potential. That mesmer can be a wrecking machine in the right hands, but most players don't know how to do it themselves so they can't imagine it happening when someone else plays the class.

I was on a 5 man trapper team. No monks; total pwnage

I agree that only one monk is needed (IF) the other characters heal themselves to an extent. then the healer isn't forced to heal everyone completely on his/her own. I find that almost every group i'm in, the members do NOT even try to heal them selves at all. Leaving me to do it for them. when you are the only monk, in a party of 8 people that do not bring along anything to heal themselves with then it becomes very tuff indeed.

i always like 2 monks in case one is a dumbass

I run a boon healer and rushed the game, but at lvl 8 i was able to keep my whole team healed through the ascension missions...


being a monk is a very easy job, take a little energy slap on some enchantments and sit back and watch the show

In Shiverpeak PUGs, two monks are usually needed because there always are players who play like idiots and use up two monks worth of energy (I guess good monks are the only reason why they actually REACHED Shiverpeaks). Also, not every monk uses Ascetics armor, so energy MIGHT be an issue for some of us.
In a group of 6, one monk usually is more then enough. If there is one free slot in a Shiverpeaks party I usually tend to take Mhenlo with us and take smiting skills myself (and act as a backup healer). It's actually fun obliterating a bunch of Jades or Mursaat with smiting skills.
Some people say 2 monks are not necessary but what they really mean is that two HEALER monks are not necessary. 2 monks can be a VERY good thing if they take skills to supplement each other.

In guild teams, one (healer) monk is enough if there's also a necro in the group to help me with the energy thing.

In PvP it depends completely on your strategy. Two monks are often not a bad idea since one can bring in Protection skills and one some Smiting skills in addition to healing.

As for better taking Mesmers and Necros then unnecessary monks, I fully agree. The fun thing is that in some mission outposts, Mesmers are even more scarce then monks... maybe because of all the noobs who don't want them and thus nobody plays a Mesmer anymore in PvE, dunno.

people never realize the potential for classes other than w/mo, e/x, mo/x

that is until they see a person like me in the hall of heros with a 6 man trap + spirit group with 2 monks to just sit back and watch ^_^

what happens is, they see a bunch of ranger, think oh this will be easy, 6 rangers and 2 monks, then they see us spamming traps and spirits

after we've laid like 20+ traps in the small area of a door, with all the spirits against the back wall, the other team gets scared shitless to even come near us, and we just wait, and wait, set more traps + spirits, wait, and wait some more, and then the group either gets so annoyed that they can't come near us that they leave, or they come and instantly die settings off every1's traps ^_^

a good trapper group can pwn with some time and patience, which most trappers have, and most of the time, the other team are aggro freaks.


the only bad thing is if you find yourself in a 6 team battle, and your facing another trapper group first, so you both sit there forever, then the other teams that won leave because we would be taking forever ^_^

Actually, what they really think is... 'ARGH, not ANOTHER spirit spammer group! Cant people come up with something innovative?'

I have yet to see anyone state that rangers are useless PvP. What I see is frustrated comments about how certain skills need to be adjusted.

Lately since my friend and I are using our Monk characters it has been real fun for us to be in a group together. Since we both use TeamSpeak we can coordinate our Monk-ness. Now if people in a PUG would just slow down enough(15-30secs per fight) then having one Monk will work fine. A Monk is pretty useless if he/she has no Blue Juice to work with.

I also would like to know where this collector is that the OP was talking about.

I am using the collector Focus item from the Temple of Ages for now. It is pretty good, except it has a -1 reg on energy.

Can anyone tell me where this "other" collector is and what he collects?

Ehm..... Drop the second monk..... and keep the FOUR WAMMOS??????? Am I missing something here? I guess I do......

1warrior
1healer
1protector
1necro
1mesmer
1fire nuker
1hydro/earth
1air spiker

The best build has it all.
Rather have one bad player that stays than a good player that disconnects.
Selling virtual money for real money on ebay is wrong, but its also hilarious.

Good Bye~!