Guild-hall and Arena.Net on PvP

For the 100th time: UAU (unlock everything) is already in the game. Its called:

Get rushed by Guild while your afk. Get lots of runes while your afk. Farming is at least 1000% more efficient then regular gameplay (concerning runes and weapon upgrades). You dont need hard work, effort or some such nonsense. Open your eyes, you just need rushers / rush the newbs.

And you can compete with premades, because everything resembling a skilled player is so sick, he already left. [ Or your so skilled, you can win with a necro/warrior using bows.]

ANET does a great job, they finally got rid of the 1% of hardcore, dedicated pvp players who where fanboing this game prerelease like no PR department ever could. Instead they got themself hardcore farmers who take server space 24/7 and are in fierce competition with the botteres, who, for some reason, manage to bot in a grindfree game. gg.

Yeah I will personally agree on that, I gave this game astounding reviews/PR prerelease on other gaming forums. A few weeks after release I felt pretty stupid suckering people into the game I thought it was.

"Hey this game is great! anyone can play PVP and they added Unlocking so there is no grind"

lol

for your sakes, i hope that was sarcasm, saedan....

I think we can all agree that the biggest mistake ArenaNet made on this game was daring to lure in both PvE and PvP lovers into the same game... nice try guys.

PvPers and PvEers view games and play games very differently. Which is why starcraft, counter-strike, and other games have been around for ages. Each game draws in only one type of player, not all types. If you like to play through missions and get head deep into game plots, play.... uh.... well im not a PvEer so I don't know many games that do this... oh wait I know one: Half-Life 2, great game.
If you like to completely dominate other actual players and spill torrents of blood, play doom, cs, starcraft, etc.

The only game I know of that actually succeeded in drawing in both crowds would be diablo II, but the amount of content that was actually implemented into that game was meager... I would have loved an act VI.

I went a lil bit off topic, but my point still stands.

I liked their free Bnet. WoW I don't really care about and consider it milking the cash cow. Warcraft 3 you could at least see they tried to make things new, whereas WoW frigging had icons from Wc3. That's pathetic.

Thank you Takkun... that was my original point in my first post this afternoon. The difference in philosophy is at the heart of this whole problem/discussion.

I find it interesting that most (From what I seen) PvE people are happy to do some PvP sometimes, we don't complain, or bitch, we just get on with it. Me personally I do enjoy PvP or the Tombs every now and again.

Yet to make it to the HoH however lol

And then again a lot of PvP are unwilling to try PvE in return, calling it "grind" and annoying. Ok the game's story is not the best in the world, and some of the early quests are boring and annoying.

But some of the quests and missions/bonuses are challenging, and much more fun then trying to fight people in PvP.

All such threads seem to turn into a PvP vs PvE war. Enough has been said on the issue already, so I wont add to it.

There was some talk about ANet vs Blizzard. Yeah, ANet is "supposedly" very community-friendly, reads the fansite forums, and implements suggestions actively. They update the game more frequently than any other developers do.

Has ArenaNet added significant content to the game since the release? No.
Have they fixed all that was broken? Hell, No.

They had a long apha and beta period. Couldnt they have BALANCED all that was there to balance THEN? All they have been doing since the release is a few minor balancing changes. The economy is in ruins. PvP fans have been complaining about NR for a long time now. PvE fans, about the lack of content.

On, the other hand, Blizzard openly admits it doesnt bother about what the community posts in the official forums. Suggestions, bugs, improvements...nothing.

But the Bottomline is, they created two massive legends Starcraft and Diablo. Those games live forever . I dont need to love the developers, I need to love the game.

And I am going back to D2 with 1.11

Much more fun than trying to fight people in PvP? Why are you posting in a PvP discussion when you are obviously a PvE'er? You have nothing to add to the discussion other than "quit whining." BTW, PvE players whine and complain all the time about farming nerfs, so don't act all high and mighty.

Blackace's post speaks volumes, and it just emphasizes a lot of questions:



Why do PvE players want to force PvP players to play PvE? No one is asking you to play PvP.

Why are PvE players against something like UAS in PvP only, that their PvE characters would gain access to temporarily while in a PvP arena, that is on a completely separate ladder fom whatever PvE ladder that could be made up? PvP players having all the skills does nothing to how well you can farm Underworld or Fissure of Woe, or do whatever random quest. It allows PvP players to do just that, PvP, without going through the tedious PvE BS.

The skills are generally very balanced, leaving Nature's Renewal discussion aside.
That takes tremendous balancing, and is something that isn't accomplished easily. In fact, a perfect balance of skills in betatesting....i'd say slim chances, something is bound to slip through. Economy in ruins? Hmm...it seems prices are a bit stable more then they were in the beginning...ecto's 10k, shards 3.5k, max storm bow 15k, runes & dyes pretty stable. Maybe not perfect, but certainly improved from what it was, not the hyperinflation i saw at first.
It's people's nature to bitch on the things that go wrong and forget the positive things done. As for NR...yeah, something tends to slip through in design/testing usually. Even as obvious as this one, it happens. I see it happen in games that are a LOT more mature then GW, like Magic (for you players out there: Skullclamp. enough said).

Right....

Not many skills are broken like renewal (pretty much fertile affecting spirits) but there are still some that fit in the absurdly good category such as ether renewal, ward v melee, etc, and many many skills that fit in the trash bin like any skill starting with 'mind', rust, etc.

I dunno, I find it's hard to ask people to look onto the bright side when in the past 4 months the game has gotten worse. If it was bad to start with, yeah, some people would have a point, but you see....it wasn't.

See what I highlighed in bold.. your first mistake is thinking I'm only into PvE, which I'm not. You see I'm one of these RARE people who likes both PvE and PvP and doesn't mind doing them both!

I love to battle against other players, PvP. And I love to gain quests, exployer the massive map, collect skills, and make money, PvE.

Seems you read my last statement and cared not for anything else I had to say... you see a UAS button is stupid. I really don't think PvP should be given access to everything in one go at all.

what the devs should do is try to reduce the so-called PvP grind that is faction points but making the amount of points requires to unlock skills and items much lower... like making it 300 for a skill and 1000 for a elite one... since 3000 is a bit over-the-top to say the least.

Think you answered your own question, most of us don't mind a bit of PvP, since once you complete all the quests and missions ingame there nothing left to do but PvP, most of us take it all as fun.

Maybe A.net is forcing PVP only people to play the PvE game a bit, which could be address, but giving you a "I'm lazy UAS Button" is not the right way to go about it.

Maybe if you stop to think... "why don't I just give PvE a go and stop complaining so much?", you may come to enjoy it.

Now don't take that last statement as a flame, since it not meant to be, I just wish you could see things from both sides of the fence.

The problem is that most of them have at least once and they do not enjoy it, otherwise they wouldnt be stating otherwise.

So...is this thread anywhere near the original idea of it? I can't tell amongst the gigantic circles of repetition that's been said in countless thread before, the OP was good. After that...kinda went to hell and doesn't make much sense...

Its funny...


Who started The Guild Hall (gw)?
Who started Guru ?
Who started Gwonline ?
Who have been the largest site contributors in these forums?
Who has advertised this game in the gaming community ?
Who has called newspapers to get journalists to take interest ?
Who has gone to the local EB games store, Best Buy and others to make sure that they get the game in their shelfes ?
Who has contacted Anet about certain regions in the world that haven't planned on putting the game on theirs shelfs ?
Who has called their best friends mothers and distant cousins to advertise the game ?
Who tested and provided the most valuable feedback to Anet during the Betas ?


It sure as hell is not the regular Joe picking up the game at Walmart at release....

The answer to the questions above are: The Top gamers, the competitive and active forum members, The Guild Leaders, The Alpha Testers. The EDGE as I would call it.


Anet could be making mistake. They are pushing away the very people that has backed this game the last two years, the very people that has helped make this game better. A cathastrophy for Anet ? No,no they will be ok. But they will leave behind a community of Competitive gamers that are very dissapointed. But who cares...

I am sure as hell not going to call the two biggest newspapers in my native country as I did before release and invite them to try the Beta game or push for an article or review...for the expansion pack....

Hell no....

With the Alpha Testers now out of the loop in the forums, with the top guilds leaving and with a horde of disgruntled "top" players also leaving, the future looks bright for the Guild Wars Community....

On another note, I always take a look at the join date of the posters in this forum before I read their posts or in any forum, and as you can see....the majority now has joined in June, July....new to the game...they are also the majority of the posters too...most of them never played in the betas...they never saw the promised land. But if they are happy, thats all that matters...isn't it ?

but what do I know...

Ratatass

have u ever thought a few of these members who have just joined used to have another name, but decided to change it by making a new account on the forums?

Or maybe they have been busy viewing other forums since the world preview event like me and only just started looking at these forums.

Don't judge a book by the date it was issued.

Oh but yea as a Beta Tester and a regular at the guildwars websites and forums since day 1, I know very well about what was expected in this game as far as the PvP goes, and what little was supposed to be expected as far as the PvE goes. Seems Anet's outlook on this game was later being viewed through a fish-eye lens causing Anet to try to force players to go through what little content they had in the PvE, Knowing very well the lack of content there actually was going to be ( As stated by Anet as I recall... about 7? months ago in one of the fansite fridays...)

As a "Average Joe" I think I input a lot into their discussion, and many others as well, and have a good understand of the games.

"Top" players and guilds will always leave in time, which shows such lack of love and loyality towards the game. If they liked it so much they would have stayed and given A.net a chance to make things better. Without the needs for a Unlock all skills lazyboy button.

And from the ashes new players (Average Joes) will take their places at the top, since we're still here.

I couldn't care less when people joined the forum, what about the late comers? The forum lurkers? The ones who don't use forums... I seen plenty of the best ideas come from people who have had the game much less, then your so-called elite.

Its funny that people say that PvPers make the game. Honestly they dont. They are the first people to leave a game. I mean look what happend with BF2. Tons of PvPers left Guildwars to go play that. Whenever a new FPS or PvP styled game comes out PvPers leave and the people who play the game for the PvE are still there running around having a good time meeting new people, trading, and farming hearts out just to do something that isnt quest based.

Who has advertised this game in the gaming community ? That would be both the community and the Public relations team such as Gaile and Alex.

Who has called newspapers to get journalists to take interest ? That would also be A.nets Promotions and public relations team.

Who has gone to the local EB games store, Best Buy and others to make sure that they get the game in their shelfes ? That would be the marketing of A.Net

Who has contacted Anet about certain regions in the world that haven't planned on putting the game on theirs shelfs ? That would be both the people intrested in the game and the A.Net making sure that the concerns of those people in other reigons are put at ease.

Dont think that just the community has done all of the above. Dont get me wrong the community does alot of advertising but dont leave out the people that work for A.Net. THey to play a huge roll in releasing and getting the game herd about.

I wouldn't say that PvPers made the game as it is today, but we have hoisted this game onto our shoulders for all to see. If it it wasn't for us PvPers who have been spreading the word about guildwars long before it was announced through actual company advertisement, this game wouldn't have gained so much popularity so quickly.

If it wasn't for us this game may have been just another good game gathering dust under pile of World of Warcraft Cd cases at your local Best Buy, Electronic Boutiques, etc.
______________________________________

But this doesn't change the fact that this game promised more than it could deliver.

Dont get me wrong you do play a big role even though I made it not seem that way but when the next big thing comes out the first thing alot of PvPers do is go for it. Leaving the PvErs to roam the game. PvPers are die hard untill something else fancys them then they bail the game they say they are oh so dedicated to.

So what your saying is "We did all this for A.net, so where's our just rewards?"

While the community had a play in this, your very much find it was A.net promoting this game and got people's attention, nevermind the fact this game is free-to-play after buying it.

This game is delivering the basic statements given by A.net in the past, given time it will get better, so stop asking for your reward or candy handouts which you seem to think you all earned.

It is no point in even bringing this up I guess. Because I don't care anymore and I know the players that was a part of the fan base from the beginning don't care.

And then all the freshies, dont know what they are talking about, but they care. They have no history other than what they have read the last 5 minutes about guildwars.

Ensign used to have a fetching phrase at the end of his signature. If you don't know the phrase, then you should'nt post on the development of Guildwars.

If you do know the phrase, and still are posting....well then I better go into hiding...


Ratatass

What im saying, is how about a game which can satisfy more than the selected few who enjoy being in limbo; taking a sample of both aspects of gameplay? Considering it was first promoted to be a game for the casual gamer who doesn't have the time to play for hours on end, yet also enjoys a little competition now and then without hindering their creativity.

But anyway before I accidently make this topic into another "not given what was previously given" and "Not actually a game which rewards grind rather than skill" topic, Im just gonna shut my mouth, but first say that I am eagerly awaiting the future updates to the current PvP system. *zips mouth shut*

Well tripped onto these forums today from a finger blunder in my favorites. I decided to see if anything has been done to even the playing field and give me the game I thought I was paying for. I guess it has only gotten worse since I left, but after seeing how I was tricked into buying the $70 version of this game I shouldn't be surprised.

I can honestly say this is the only game I have ever beta tested where the beta was more polished and much more fun then the release.


O well back to DAOC, atleast there I know I can pvp after 3 days played.


Nik

PS Colin leave this POC game and come back to mythic we miss you at DG!

How were you tricked into buying the Collectors Edition? Did a.net force you too? Did they send hired goons over to you place to make you buy it?

Everyone remember to keep to topic both LOGICALLY and POLITELY or this thread will close as well. Name-calling and flames are not helping. This does not need to sink into a PvP vs. PvE war nor does it need to become the official "I Hate Arena Net the Lying Bastiches" thread. Make constructive comments or don't post at all.

Aniewiel this is usually a heated discussion as PVE players and people that don't play PVP usually are the biggest critics of any change. Also PVP players tend to become angry at PVE players because on the admission of Arena.Net the reason for the grind is to keep PVE chars even with PVP chars, while this kills the PVP scene completely.

If people get too out of hand I will apologize for any PVP player because I understand and the same for PVE players.

If you can please be a lil extra leniant or simply delete posts and give another warning it would be extra helpful for such a topic, so people will not also keep posting threads it would be helpful if this one lasted a few days at least .

thx


in response to above post:

a lot of people purchased the games on what THEY consider "false pretenses". The whole entire flavor of the game turned MMO grind at release, which was completely different then the feel pre-release. While this may not affect some, PVP players especially felt the burden of having to grind grind grind to compete.

This doesnt mean you have to agree, and I can see how it is not true for some players, but for others it is true. I would be one of them.

GH Messenger: The thread isn't closed and I've not deleted a single post. As long as it stays on the civil side of heated discussion, I'm happy. I just want to throw a reminder in every now and again in case anyone forgets.

And on the PvE and PvP angst: It is not the fault of PvEers that ANet has chosen to attempt to keep them competitive. Anger at the PvE players isn't very fair. And, just in case you wondered, I think the converse is true as well.

I also would like to see this topic stick around, because a CONSTRUCTIVE discussion of the issues and problems can only help in the long term. I like seeing the passion that people have for the game and I would like to see that translated into something that is GOOD for the game in the long haul.

The PvPers are certainly right about one thing... PvP is what is going to keep this game going in the long term. I speak from experience here. I'm closing in on finishing the PvE portion with my third character... after that point I'll have all the skills unlocked and almost all runes/mods. At that point I plan to dive seriously into PvP play. How long until the full expansion? At least 6 months, probably closer to 9. What's going to keep me playing until then? PvP. So we ALL have a stake in having the long term PvP problems addressed.

The only thing that PVP does to anger PVE is the sigils, which was nerfed long ago......how can PVE players possibly have a say when none of these things affect them ever? While UAS is a bit far, because Anet wants the PVE characters to still be able to compete somewhat, most people are aren't giving anything that would hurt PVE at all. Fact is, most PVP players know more about PVE then the PVE players. And some players like me play both aspects of the game, just that in the current situation, any more "free content" given should be to PVP, why? Because PVP content has a chance to be strong, whereas stuff like Grenths Sorrow or whatever is just going to be another underworld/fissure. Face it, unless the PVE revamps how PVE works universally, it's just something that is going to get stale in a month at most. PVP? No, add more scenarios, more ladders, more balance, wow, instant replayability. How easy of a choice is this?

Xellos: I'm not arguing one side or the other. Left to me, I'd do my darnedest to make sure both sides were happy. I am primarily a PvEer though I've dabbled in PvP. I like the idea of newly added areas.

I also think that PvP concerns need to be address with all the things you mentioned.

Don't take what I wrote up above as anything other than what it is: GH Messenger mentioned that some PvPers get angry at PvEers. My wording meant, in essence, that neither side should bear the PLAYERS of the opposing side any malice whatsoever. It is anger at the game that is well-placed, not at one another.

I like both pve and pvp but im "little" confused...my guild want to be a pvp guild...but we cant play anything better than arena ...becouse we cant make good build...Why?Becouse average age in my guild is 20+ ,we study,have jobs and other things that keep us away from comp so mostly we dont sit more than 2-3 h a day playing GW ...our guild exists 2 months and we are not ready...when we will be?Dunno,who knows, maybe in Next Year.So my whole guild feels that advertisment about pvp and "there are no grind in GW" kinda...

Well, personally, I think the game already has enough PVE to work with, what I mean is, instead of adding content, why not polish it. That's exactly what I was getting at for PVP. PVP you just need to polish it, that means more scenarios, balancing, etc. Does that mean new skills? New weapons? Nope.

PVE wise, it'd be nice if we had alot more features. Currently, the games only features in PVE are missions and instances which both require you to run around slaughtering things. I'd like to see more thought put into them that can make them more replayable. Because let's face it, by the end of December, no one's going to go "Wow guys that summer update rocked for PVE", nope, their just asking for another damn update. It'd be really smart if you could revitalize the current PVE so to speak. Perhaps make a difficulty counter? Where umm, if you beat the game, you can choose a higher rating which gives more exp/drops but the AI is well...not incredibly stupid on both ends? Or participate in wars that would somewhat replicate DOTA, except do it instance by instance. Remember the war outside tutorial city? Or Dalessio? Wouldn't it be cool just to run in and help fight? Etc etc. The world is large enough as it is, adding content isn't going to make it more replayable, it's just burnable. You want something that lasts, and as far as making a good game, that means revamping all the PVE parts to make 100% of the PVE fun for a long time.

he is responding to how long it took him to unlock everything
600 hrs total

Yay arena.net

OT but... 2-3hr per day is in my opinion pretty hardcore!

As for the topic at hand I think that for probably the first time ever I have to agree with the PvPers here on their suggestions. Like Aniewiel I primarily play PvE but have dabbled in PvP, hence why I've never posted in a PvP thread before - I simply don't have enough experience of it. Usually I think that the 'elite' tend to voice themselves in a puffed up know it all way which puts me off, however on this occasion I think they are right with their criticisms.

I cannot see how suggestions such as the ones below are not a top priority for the PvP side.

>> Detailed player / guild statistics

>> Various ladders with decay, etc

>> re-evaluation of skills

A system like the stats database for UT mixed with the character database of eq2 would be fantastic, I'd even pay a quid a month for something like that. The only thing i disagree on so far is UAS but that's been catagorically ruled out anyway.

EDIT: Xellos got me thinking about PvE challenges and I thought maybe something like the mad cow level from diablo, but with it set as you holding back the Charr with a team of 8, gradually overtime the spawns of Charr get greater and greater rushing at you, if you last 5 mins you get x2 xp, last 10 you get x3, last 15 get a cool chest of gold drops? The best time ever is recorded for posterity on the website to beat?

What bugs me is how ArenaNet is

1. Taking forever with content that was promised on a weekly bases, no pvp content in almost 4 months.

2. Not addressing PvP, especially in a letter that never came.



The solution is easy, and that is to make it so unlocking doesnt take 500+ hours to get everything unlocked, you have to literally grind hundreds of hours to get all the skills, something ANet is supposedly against. At least make a temporary solution, as in 2x faction, or half cost for skills.

btw nice post

and I agree they need more PvE missions without linear goals...

such as every mission shouldnt be the same.. there should be some more Replayable single player gameplay types.

Not even normal things but more creative sort of like Starcraft/warcraft usermade map type minigames.

-----

on the PvP side, yeah I think a lot of people agree :\ sucks so many players have already left though
including me

I write that dont sit more than 2-3h s yea for us its kinda hardcore to...
And idea for more detailed pvp stats is great but i think there are more importand things to fix in pvp ...but if they will be fixed ?Time will tell ,till then i will be enyoing pve ...

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Solutions to the most pressing issues mentioned on this thread.

quoted for information on playtime vrs unlocking.