Article - REAL world of Online Farming for profit. - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Stev0

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2005

Halifax, NS, Canada

02 Aug 2005 at 01:41 - 1

I scanned/reduced a magazine article that pretty much made me sick to my stomach.

I'm also posting this because I'm sick of people saying that people can sell items/gold/whatever for real world cash and justify it because your buying THEIR time. Well... your not buying their time, your lining their pockets.

Quit it with the rubber stamp response. Your not buying gold your paying for their time getting it.

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/8...arming19vi.jpg
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/5...arming26ry.jpg
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/6...arming33am.jpg

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This is ridiculous.

***Edited: Great article but easier to read from the URLs you've posted***

Lampshade

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

USA

Xen of Onslaught

02 Aug 2005 at 01:49 - 2

I cant read em

Aniewiel

Smite Mistress

Join Date: Jun 2005

The Land of AZ, USA

Rt/E

02 Aug 2005 at 01:50 - 3

Click on them to enlarge the images.

hydrak

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

02 Aug 2005 at 02:09 - 4

Those people were busted for running sweatshops which are violations of local laws, not because they were violating the terms&agreements of the game companies.

Evan montegarde

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

02 Aug 2005 at 02:36 - 5

Who's fault is this? Let's think...Oh, Anet! I'd never buy gold for money, but if it was as easy to earn 100,000 gold in the game as it is to earn $9 in real life, it would upset the whole ebay market.

Orochim4ru

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2005

mustache riders

02 Aug 2005 at 02:37 - 6

I actually read an article in toronto life (worst waiting room ever) that estimated the online money industry as worth 1 billion/yr. There was a fold out on these guys marketing the stuff too. I was disgusted.

KuTeBaka

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

02 Aug 2005 at 02:47 - 7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evan montegarde

Who's fault is this? Let's think...Oh, Anet! I'd never buy gold for money, but if it was as easy to earn 100,000 gold in the game as it is to earn $9 in real life, it would upset the whole ebay market.

no it wouldnt, because there will always be lazy people that want to get cash easily. If you could get 100k in less than an hour, it would completely crash the economy.

Orochim4ru

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2005

mustache riders

02 Aug 2005 at 02:50 - 8

but there would be no need for an economy because people would have the option of buying pvp unlocks to get to the no-grind pvp haven the game was supposed to become.

Ilya Khan

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2005

Los Angeles, CA

-FdM-

Me/Mo

02 Aug 2005 at 06:22 - 9

In a positive light : They are creating jobs for the poor souls.
My personal thoughts? This whole underground network sounds pretty cool.
If I ever met "Smooth Criminal" or "Sell"?
I would probably give em a swift kick to the nuts.

Mashu

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2005

02 Aug 2005 at 07:36 - 10

Quote:

Originally Posted by stev0

I'm also posting this because I'm sick of people saying that people can sell items/gold/whatever for real world cash and justify it because your buying THEIR time. Well... your not buying their time, your lining their pockets.

Only way to beat this is to remove the monetry system altogether, switch to using the new Faction system to pay for everything and have weapon and weapon upgrade traders. It still would not completely get rid of the real money traders because they could still get "beefed" up characters then sell them. To counteract that I have no idea how.

Ashley Twig

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

germany

Guild Of Openhearted Deeds

R/Mo

02 Aug 2005 at 07:50 - 11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilya Khan

If I ever met "Smooth Criminal" or "Sell"?
I would probably give em a swift kick to the nuts.

Just a reminder.
As bad as Smooth Criminal or Sell might be: They have a market and a market always requires 2 sides: seller and buyer

Obviously there are enough people stupid/lazy/whatever enough to spend offline cash (does that term exist?

) for online cash.

So who are the bad guys? Buyers? Sellers?

My guess is: both

Gaele

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

Ontario, Canada

Legionnaires of Tyria

E/N

02 Aug 2005 at 08:21 - 12

Call me cruel or not, but being paid ANYTHING to play video games for ranges around 15 hours a day would be fine by me. Rake in the dollas, rot on my comfortable chair and wait for carpal tunnel syndrom, ah what a life.

Spark

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

02 Aug 2005 at 08:53 - 13

Quote:

Call me cruel or not, but being paid ANYTHING to play video games for ranges around 15 hours a day would be fine by me. Rake in the dollas, rot on my comfortable chair and wait for carpal tunnel syndrom, ah what a life.

On the other hand, the 9-5 guy just got out of the office and has an hour to play on Guild Wars maybe every couple days. After all, he has a family to care for, he can't spend a lot of time playing. He doesn't have money to buy any new weapons or armor for himself. But what's this? For less than $20 he can get more gold than he could spend for a long while. He makes far more than $20 an hour, but it would take him countless hours to get that much gold himself. Therefore, it is more efficient for him to buy gold. Small expense for some happiness, and a gaming merchant makes a sale.

Is selling convienience so foreign? If you think that it is harmful to the economy or is against the game rules, that is one thing. However, there is nothing INHERANTLY wrong with selling in game gold. Even with my summer part time job I make dollars much faster than their equivalent in gold. If I wanted gold, but didn't want to farm, it is strictly more time efficient for me to use dollars.

I personally think games will become VERY interesting once systems facilitating selling for cash become official. I don't think it's a bad thing, its just something not everyone is ready for.

Phades

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

02 Aug 2005 at 08:57 - 14

If you find yourself looking for shortcuts within a game, you are removing the purpose of playing the game. It is just that simple. Trying to find or create shortcuts in any other social event is frowned upon, however video games seem to be a misnomer for some reason.

Takkun

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

02 Aug 2005 at 09:12 - 15

People can point fingers at Anet and the groups which profit off this currently unstoppable tactic all they want.

But instead people should be pointing to the mysterious figure in the mirror on their very own medicine cabinet in the bathroom if they want to see the real criminals.

Through our desperate struggle to become the best in computer games and earn a rather meaningless reputation, we have now resorted to buying the so-called best items in games with money which could have been put to better use through donations to your local charity to increase the funding on the currently worldwide problem of Cancer.

Do you want a reputation which will be taken seriously by your peers? Put down the mouse, step away from your computer, and write a check to a charity to show that you actually have some compassion for others rather than for yourself.

Whoa I should do this for a living! Ill make sure to be one of those guys who try to encourage people to donate their money to charity when I retire.

Im gonna go ram my head against a brick wall a few times for making this post.

Divinitys Creature

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2005

Somewhere between the Real World and Tyria ;P

The Gothic Embrace [Goth]

03 Aug 2005 at 03:42 - 16

A comrade of mine on TGH did some original research that proves that the "sweatshops" as they are sometimes called actually pay 4x the local minimum wage and the hours are comparable to those of people who work in most cities.

find the thread here

It's too much for me to copy and paste, but I think the facts presented there are very relevant here.

Anarkii

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

-None-

R/Me

03 Aug 2005 at 04:10 - 17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

If you find yourself looking for shortcuts within a game, you are removing the purpose of playing the game. It is just that simple. Trying to find or create shortcuts in any other social event is frowned upon, however video games seem to be a misnomer for some reason.

Not really. Shortcuts are meant to improve the quality of living, letting you spend more time on what you like. Computers are shortcuts. Caluclators are shortcuts. Similarly, people being "rushed" in GW is a shortcut. They cut out the boring part(if they are playing with their 2nd or 3rd character) and do the portion they like. People buying gold in ebay is also a shortcut.

Many people in 3rd world countries dont have nice avenues for employment. So they gladly work in "Farming Sweatshops" all day to earn a little money without too much work. And $1/hour isnt insignificant because the cost of living is extremely low there.

And on the other hand, there are people who have a full-time job, and cant play more than couple of hours a day. They spend a tiny fraction of their money for shortcuts, in order to enjoy the part of the game they like most.

Dax

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

03 Aug 2005 at 04:11 - 18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

If you find yourself looking for shortcuts within a game, you are removing the purpose of playing the game. It is just that simple. Trying to find or create shortcuts in any other social event is frowned upon, however video games seem to be a misnomer for some reason.

I agree.... I think all this talk about who gets paid what and whether its legal is interesting debate but really doesn't matter in the long run for most gamers.

Bottom line if nobody bought stuff off these guys they wouldn't be in business.

Does that mean people who work in sweatshops in China will make more or less? Who knows... but there going to come a point where games like this are simply not going to be fun anymore.

Anarkii

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

-None-

R/Me

03 Aug 2005 at 04:16 - 19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

but there going to come a point where games like this are simply not going to be fun anymore.

Aye, True.

GW was advertised to be exactly not that. They said that spending more time isnt going to make a difference. Its all about skill, not time, they said.

Look at PvE
The whole concept of Fissure Armor encourages farming-encourages spending a lot of time-this enchances the value of things like ecto, which in turn forces PvE players who dont have much time to buy them for real cash.

Look at PvP
To Unlock all you want, you have to go through a LOT of grind. People dont like this and buy unlocked accounts in ebay.

The solution is in the game itself. Make it as you meant it to be.

SOT

Banned

Join Date: May 2005

East Texas

03 Aug 2005 at 04:18 - 20

Quote:

Originally Posted by hydrak

Those people were busted for running sweatshops which are violations of local laws, not because they were violating the terms&agreements of the game companies.

Succulent wrongness. This past month, PC gamer had the same phenomenon in an article, and spoke to the CEO/Chairman of a MAJOR farming company.

Owned.

Dax

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

03 Aug 2005 at 04:26 - 21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anarkii

And on the other hand, there are people who have a full-time job, and cant play more than couple of hours a day. They spend a tiny fraction of their money for shortcuts, in order to enjoy the part of the game they like most.

I'm really trying understand this point of view. This game is not a game thats been out for years where people have to play catch up. I get the impression that alot of people can't enjoy the game unless they have the best equipment right away. So it take a little longer to get everything, is that a bad thing?

..and if you say that it's because everything is nerfed now let me remind you who made it that way- botters...who are the chief offenders? You guessed it.

I'm not being argumentative I just don't understand

Anarkii

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

-None-

R/Me

03 Aug 2005 at 04:32 - 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

I'm really trying understand this point of view. This game is not a game thats been out for years where people have to play catch up. I get the impression that alot of people can't enjoy the game unless they have the best equipment right away. So it take a little longer to get everything, is that a bad thing?

..and if you say that it's because everything is nerfed now let me remind you who made it that way- botters...who are the chief offenders? You guessed it.

I'm not being argumentative I just don't understand

Its not about playing catchup. Any game that encourages farming encourages ebaying. Someone whos time is worth more than the money(say, a workng professional) buys the stuff, and someone whose money is worth more than the time(say, a student) farms the stuff.

ExplosiveBadger

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2005

MN

E/Mo

03 Aug 2005 at 04:44 - 23

Wait, why doesn't A-net tell Ebay to take down all the gold auctions?

edit: I think this kind of sweatshop is much better then sneaker sweatshops. I don't think much of the article. It doesn't really effect me. He even said the men and the boys don't mind their jobs.

Anarkii

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

-None-

R/Me

03 Aug 2005 at 05:17 - 24

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExplosiveBadger

Wait, why doesn't A-net tell Ebay to take down all the gold auctions?

Because its not illegal

I could make an auction with wordings to circumvent everything.

"Selling One Hour of My Time. I can get 100K GW gold in one hour, a fiery dragon sword +xx, a gold shield + xx etc. The items remain the property of NCSoft and ArenaNet and you are paying only for the time I spend in acquiring the said items."

SOT

Banned

Join Date: May 2005

East Texas

03 Aug 2005 at 05:22 - 25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anarkii

Because its not illegal

I could make an auction with wordings to circumvent everything.

"Selling One Hour of My Time. I can get 100K GW gold in one hour, a fiery dragon sword +xx, a gold shield + xx etc. The items remain the property of NCSoft and ArenaNet and you are paying only for the time I spend in acquiring the said items."

I thought as much.

AceSnyp3r

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

Work in Progress [WIP]

03 Aug 2005 at 05:27 - 26

Nice article, but I don't really have a problem with this. If someone wants to waste real money for ingame items, it's their loss.

Ollj

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

03 Aug 2005 at 05:47 - 27

hang them hight

Ilya Khan

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2005

Los Angeles, CA

-FdM-

Me/Mo

03 Aug 2005 at 05:51 - 28

"Just a reminder.
As bad as Smooth Criminal or Sell might be: They have a market and a market always requires 2 sides: seller and buyer

Obviously there are enough people stupid/lazy/whatever enough to spend offline cash (does that term exist? ) for online cash.

So who are the bad guys? Buyers? Sellers?

My guess is: both"

?
Just as an example, in America, the government does not employ each agent to keep track of each possible buyer of drugs. They go for the dealers because from 1 dealer stems hundreds and, in this case, sometimes thousands of buyers. Take down the dealer to take down the system, right?

"Do you want a reputation which will be taken seriously by your peers? Put down the mouse, step away from your computer, and write a check to a charity to show that you actually have some compassion for others rather than for yourself."

I partly agree. I would rather donate my time rather than my money, because God knows that it is not money that is needed, but people willing to give their time (as well).

PS - the in America comment is just in case it is different in other countries.

Ashley Twig

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

germany

Guild Of Openhearted Deeds

R/Mo

03 Aug 2005 at 07:17 - 29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilya Khan

Just as an example, in America, the government does not employ each agent to keep track of each possible buyer of drugs.
...
Take down the dealer to take down the system, right?

That's one way to fight that system.
But there are other ways too.
Tracking the dealers is not effective enough.
Esp. with drugs you need to destroy the market, by stopping buyers from buying.
Of course it's easier to fight drug-barons, but to quote a line from a Harry-Potter trailer: "You have to decide between what's right, and what's easy"

Orochim4ru

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2005

mustache riders

03 Aug 2005 at 07:59 - 30

Its much easier to bust small dealers and their buyers than spend a lot of time discovering who's importing, distributing and marketing the product on the streets. If you take out the botters the economy won't recover due to the already present glut of gold, but it won't get any worse.

Sagius Truthbarron

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Animal Factory [ZoO]

A/

03 Aug 2005 at 08:50 - 31

Woooo 4 dollars for 20 hours of play. I'm rich!

lsdDominus

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2005

04 Aug 2005 at 10:53 - 32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evan montegarde

Who's fault is this? Let's think...Oh, Anet! I'd never buy gold for money, but if it was as easy to earn 100,000 gold in the game as it is to earn $9 in real life, it would upset the whole ebay market.

Ever heard of NcSoft? Thats the publisher for Guild Wars. All decisions relating to the game are always finalized by the publisher. Ever heard of Lineage 2? Another game from NcSoft. NcSoft covertly let other companies farm gold and sell it on Ebay. If I go into further detail you'd think I'd be paraphrasing the linked magazine article. NcSoft is a very unethical company. They don't care about sweatshops. They care about money. The relevance of this thread to Guild Wars is not known to all.

As some of you may know, Koreans have to pay a monthly fee for Guild Wars. As some of you may also know, NcSoft is a Korean company. NcSoft makes ArenaNet do whatever they want for Guild Wars. The last 3 months have made it apparent that NcSoft wants lots of pointless PvE. It is also very apparent that NcSoft wanted there to be as much grind as possible in PvE. The more time Korean customers spend on PvE the more monthly fees NcSoft rakes in. It's not totally ArenaNets fault that PvP is in despair, every decision has to be cleared by NcSoft. at least 90%of the developers time is forced on PvE material. NcSoft is no better with Guild Wars than it was with Lineage 2.

Many people are very frustrated at ArenaNet and especially NcSoft.
Hopefully ArenaNet has learned their lesson and will self-publish any future games because Guild Wars has been thoroughly flushed down the crapper.

Ashley Twig

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

germany

Guild Of Openhearted Deeds

R/Mo

04 Aug 2005 at 11:42 - 33

Quote:

Originally Posted by lsdDominus

at least 90%of the developers time is forced on PvE material. NcSoft is no better with Guild Wars than it was with Lineage 2.

So what you're saying is: While aNet tells us, that they're working their butts off to give us (europe, america) the latest updates, extensions, blahblah for free and that we should be sooo happy that we don't have to pay for it (which we are, of course

), they aren't really working for us, but for the much larger korean market?

senzio

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

04 Aug 2005 at 11:50 - 34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

Woooo 4 dollars for 20 hours of play. I'm rich!

i get no money playing 20 hours of play.. atleast they get money to play video games but its still a bad thing

i think that koreans get paid to own us in hoh

Sagius Truthbarron

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Animal Factory [ZoO]

A/

04 Aug 2005 at 12:01 - 35

I wish I was Korean

lsdDominus

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2005

04 Aug 2005 at 12:45 - 36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashley Twig

So what you're saying is: While aNet tells us, that they're working their butts off to give us (europe, america) the latest updates, extensions, blahblah for free and that we should be sooo happy that we don't have to pay for it (which we are, of course

), they aren't really working for us, but for the much larger korean market?

Have you checked the updates page at guildwars.com? They haven't done anything except fix bugs for a month. They only significant update since release that I've actually cared about was the PvP rewards system, which is a ripoff of WoW and a joke in its own right.

I'm sure the devs are putting in their 40 hours/week but whatever they're doing isn't improving guild wars. Stealth nerfs, imbalancing buffs, and complete neglect to PvP are the first things that come to mind. And yes if you don't believe me look at your cd case for Guild Wars. I'm staring at mine as I type this and in the bottom right corner is the NcSoft logo. All the money for this is in the Korean market now that nobody has to pay anything until this "expansion" is released about two times farther down the road than originally promised. I for one am not holding my breath in anticipation of that.

Tuon

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

04 Aug 2005 at 12:56 - 37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

If you find yourself looking for shortcuts within a game, you are removing the purpose of playing the game. It is just that simple. Trying to find or create shortcuts in any other social event is frowned upon, however video games seem to be a misnomer for some reason.

You should ask yourself why people feel inclined to spend their hard earned cash to avoid playing a game. To avoid "having fun".

Don't blame consumers for design flaws.

Ashley Twig

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

germany

Guild Of Openhearted Deeds

R/Mo

04 Aug 2005 at 13:12 - 38

Quote:

Originally Posted by lsdDominus

Have you checked the updates page at guildwars.com? They haven't done anything except fix bugs for a month.

I check every now and then, but basically it's boring, because all they do is advertise new wallpapers etc.

Also the emote-section in the online-manual is not at all up2date.
Emotes like /age /health /rank /petname etc. are missing completely.
Why have an online-manual that suggestes by it's name "online" to be up2date when it is not?

So for me, there's no need to check their home-page on a regular basis.

But I do read some of the threads around here, and members of aNet constantly post how they're doing it for us, how we should be so lucky we don't have to pay. They raise customers hope that "within a few days" certain "small problems" will be solved with "the best possible outcome".

All that talk about the hard work they do and us not having to pay for it, sometimes makes me feel guilty. Guilfy for bothering them with my non-profitable, small world, one-track-minded problems when they have bigger fish to fry.

But now I read that they're working for korea only and europe is just something like a 5th wheel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lsdDominus

I'm staring at mine as I type this and in the bottom right corner is the NcSoft logo. All the money for this is in the Korean market now that nobody has to pay anything until this "expansion" is released about two times farther down the road than originally promised. I for one am not holding my breath in anticipation of that.

We should be so lucky that koreans are paying for our updates.

Mr. Matt

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

R/Mo

04 Aug 2005 at 13:49 - 39

...where do you think I could get a job playing games all day? I mean, other than the job I have at the mome... erm, wait, no, I never play games here! I mean, there. I'm not at work right now. Honest.

As people have said, it's not completely the sellers at fault. They've spotted a quick and easy way to make money, and they've taken it. If there wasn't a market for game gold, they wouldn't be doing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuon

You should ask yourself why people feel inclined to spend their hard earned cash to avoid playing a game. To avoid "having fun".

Don't blame consumers for design flaws.

If a game is so lacking in fun-factor, one has to question why you don't simply put it away and do something else with your life. It seems to me that ploughing even more money into a game you're not satisfied with is just... well, daft really.

L33t Masta

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2005

Ascalon City

E/N

04 Aug 2005 at 16:16 - 40

That's disgusting....