Something has to be done about these spirit spamming groups in PVP.

Isn't the heal ball Life Bond + Healing seed?

Healing Spring is a trap, any attack interrupts it. Barrage and Cycle Axe come to mind.

Spirit spammers are not unbeatable. They're very beatable, because spirits affect both sides. If your spike build can't work with QZ up, then that's your fault. If you smite build can't take NR, that's your fault. Putting all your eggs into one basket is just not the way to beat Spirit Spam, sorry.

It took a hell of a lot more strategy to come up with spirit teams than spike teams, that's for sure.

When it began, it wasn't just "spam the spirits" because nobody ever attacked the spirits, there was no reason to spam them.

The main skills were GF+Winter and Fertile Season. The rest were just icing on the cake. Nobody spammed NR at first because everyone was wearing Frostbound and were using Matra of Frost.

THAT was strategy.

Then someone had to post the build on this forum (I remember the first time someone posted it here) and all hell broke loose. Everyone wanted to try and every guild was running their newbie members through the Ascension areas just so they could try this build.

Eventually it turned into what it is today.



The funny thing is that when all W/Mo teams came out, everyone was screaming "zOMG NERF TEH PALADINS!". Then all spike teams came out "NERF! NERF! THATZ UNFAIR!". Then Smite teams came out, but before anybody had a chance to moan and whine, spirit groups came out.

So what's my point? Please shutup and play the game or quit. If you can't find "teh uber" counter for the spirit team, then wait for other people to do it for you.

I can't go toe to toe with a warrior...he has too much armor. NERF IT!

Don't do much PvP on my end. Frankly, I loved PvP in beta. In fact, I thought I would be a PvP player mostly. But what I found was it was impossible to get a PUG going as a W/Mo (damage build at that) and that there were so many immature players that did nothing but smack talk. The last thing I need is to play a game to relax to only get riled up because some punk decides he needs to believe he has a bigger johnson by smack talking.

And now, I see people on both sides of this issue flaming each other. Man, have some respect for each other and their opinions. It is possible to disagree and still respect the other person's opinions.

And I for one think the W/Mo will make a comeback, sort of like bell bottoms and the Village People!!!

I'm talking in general too. Why should ANet do something that they only know for certain will make 50% of the forum users happy. They don't know what the other 99% of the people in the game will feel about it. Person X's idea may make wonderful sense to him and his friends on the forum, but the game population in general could think it a royally dumb idea. Currently there is no way for ANet to simply poll every person in the game to find out their opinion, and as such, no way to determine what the majority wants.

How can you people honestly sit there and say that there's strategy involved?

I'm not talking about ranger w/ monks to heal that spam spirits here and there and rely on natures renewal to win. That's cheap on it's own, but what I'm referring to is far worse than that.

What I'm referring to is the so called 'heal ball'. Yes there is a version with monks involved, but what I'm referring to is far worse than that. No monks at all, pure ranger group.

Simply put. The team spawns and gathers together in a tight ball around the ghostly hero/priest. They start spamming the spirits around the priest and hero forming a protective shield against any foes. At this point your team is screwed and you should just quit now. Just throw some wards and chain heal spring and you have an unbeatable turtle.

The last time we encountered this it was during the mission where it ends up being 8v8v8. Even after we teamed up with the other team (since they knew they were screwed when they saw the shield as well) we still got destroyed. We had some smiting and they were straight up spiking. I think they managed to kill 1 of their spirits (1!!!!!!). Channeling Heal Spring kept all their spirits alive when in conjunction with fertile season.

You know I've actually had this happen to me at the HoH and we couldn't even injure the Ghostly Hero. I've discussed this with a couple of people that have experienced the same thing and they say it's a bug where you won't even damage whatever is inside the close proximity of the spirits (this of course i don't know for sure so I can't really say).

I'm sorry but there's no strategy there. The only thing you can really do is wait it out and hope that they come out of their heal ball. Even then you deal with the sheer fact that they spammed spirits.

I don't think spirits should be eilminated period, but just spamming is out of control.

I don't understand how you can honestly say there's nothing wrong with the spamming of spirits? No one is saying not use ACTUAL strategy to effectively use spirits, but the way it is now is out of control.

What I want is one of you spamming enthusiasts to explain to me why it would be unfair to have max 1 of each spirit at a time? Why are spirits the only skills that can stack? It should work just like any other skill where casting a new one replaces the old one. This way you can still effectively use spirits, but there's just more strategy to it than spamming as many as you can.

*edit*

The problem isn't groups using spirits to their advantage. I totally support any build out of the cookie-cutter smite and spike. I was actually impressed when I saw how nature's renewal created such a problem for these 2 builds. However, the problem is with the way spamming sheer numbers of THE SAME spirits can affect gameplay. The problem with spirit spamming isn't the idea of using all of the available spirits to your advantage. The problem is with the ability to spam and therefore making these conditions permanent. You can still have effective spirit use and strategy (actual strategy) without the ability to spam spirits.

I foresee the days of people complaining about all-mesmer teams...

A pack of rangers, tightly stuck together, is unbeatable?

I know it's not popular in PvP, for good reasons, but this is why Area Effect spells exist. I'm sure a couple of Elementalists (not to mention some other classes) could easily outdamage the Healing Spring.

Maybe the builds people like that are popular aren't winning against these groups, but just because almost no one takes Meteor Storm to PvP doesn't mean that solution doesn't exist. =)

It fits the very definition of 'strategy' since its a plan to work towards a goal. Winning. Maybe it would be easier on people if they found a way to beat the spirit strategy rather than complaining so much about it.

I'm also wondering why a mod hasn't threatened to close the thread yet, as they did when some guy was complaining about how casters couldn't be beaten in another one...

Hehe. My thread got closed, I'm not even sure why...

Not when they are using Greater Conflagruation + Winter + Matra of Frost + FrostBound armor

I saw Comos thread in the short time it survived on these forums, he simply stated what he wants nerfed and voiced his OPINION in the SUGGESTION section of the forum which is exactly what others are doing with NR. Why was his thread deleted when the moderator chooses to allow so many new threads about the nerfing of NR?? hmm.

Great forum don't get me wrong, just seems a little unfair don't you think? People are allowed to complain about natures renewal in as many new threads as they like but comos not allowed to complain about what he gets beaten by... An explanation maybe..?

Yep, I guess the Moderators are very biased. I've come to expect that from guildwarsguru.com.

I have to point this out as one of the most idiotic posts that I've ever had the misfortune of reading.

Why do you think developers update games? Patch them? Because there are balance issues that need to be sorted out. Developers can only test their games so much before that deadline looms dangerously close. Also, they only have so many testers--they aren't able to cover every possible angle. The public is the one who tries its best to abuse the system in place, to find ways around the limitations the developers tried to set--workarounds that the testers simply didn't find. That's what updates are for.

The developers also didn't know in which directions the metagame was going to go--they had no idea spiking could be so powerful, or smiting, or whatever else. That's what the public is for, to try all of these different angles, and expose flaws within the balance of the game, so that the developers can correct these errors.

In addition, ArenaNet itself (I believe, correct me if I am wrong) likened Guild Wars to Magic: the Gathering. This is an excellent analogy, for the reasons stated above. Both ArenaNet and Wizards of the Coast are constantly watching the metagame, and they will alter the game/restrict cards to keep the game as balanced and fun for all players involved ad possible.

I know, I know--tl;dr. But I just wanted to speak my piece. Thank you.

Como i like your other posts but im going to have to go with Kakumei on this one.. thats the dumbest post ever made on any forum on any game, and if there are aliens with dumb posts i think yours still takes the cake
of course GW changes there game... thats why theres beta's...Alpha Testers... Updates...
**i like your other posts thow
__________________________________________________ __
Back to the reason the thread was open :::::
Personally i've never come across 1 of these NR spirit spamming strategies but I can't believe that can be unbeatable...
Can some1 do me a favour and post on here the answers to this question :::
Why doesn't this list of skills stop them::
1.Blackout
2.Power Spike
3.Energy Drain
4.**Metoer Shower**
5.(Any DIsrupting Move Or even attack as spirits are "Easily Interupted"

Im Sure i can Conjure up Many more but these are the main 1's.....ANY1 REPLY

LoL. Ok, so maybe you guys don't get the jist of what that was, and looking back, I can understand why. I'll rewrite it, but this time in better English and I will get my point across.

Now I'm not talking about updates to fix bugs, crashes, new quests and ATTEMPTING to balance the game, I'm talking about how people actually want Spirits COMPLETELY REMOVED. THAT is what I don't think will happen, not any of the above or what have you.

My reason for thinking this is because that they have always been included and that even if people are going to complain about Spirit Spamming groups I personally don't think it will accomplish anything. People on this forum provide a tiny amount of the gamers who actually play Guild Wars. There is just not enough evidence that these skills need to be as nerfed as some of you say.

One last thing I'd like to point out: -

One extremely ignorant guy said....

Yeah go get some knowledge. All Spirits have a range you n00b.

So, whenever someone comes up with a good strategy to play PvP, Anet should nerf it? If they nerf it sooner or later someone else will have another strategy. Will you want them to nerf that?

It'll get to the point where any strategy must be nerfed becuase you're angry that you got owned.

This is basically what Como said in his thread which was closed down for no reason, also what i've said in just about every single thread on NR, please listen to this guy if your not gonna listen to anyone else people. Stop complaining about every strategy you get beaten by.

Thanks for re-iterating this funbun

...still waiting for a response on why Comos thread was closed down and this hasn't been.?

Are you really that dense? His post wanted to nerf and make Balthazar's Aura elite...because it owned him in pvp. He wanted to nerf all mesmers because they owned his monk. He stated that he didn't like backfire and empathy, because those in particular destroyed his monk. Yes, empathy. He also wanted to nerf warriors becuase they used balthazar's aura. Again, that in itself is stupid, because he lacks the common sense to figure out that the warrior themselves do not cast balth's on themself.

Then his great paragraph:

This would definetely explain why he is so adverse to any positive discussion and suggestions to the skill NR, because it is the only thing he is capable of doing.

Principa threatened to close a thread similiar to this when a guy couldn't find a way to counter casters, claiming that he was crying about getting "owned"....

Yet the mods agree with this and close an anti-ranger-nerf thread.

Firstly,
Sorry i didn't realise you knew Como and how he plays, sorry i didn't know that you knew all of his builds, strats..

Oh, wait, you don't.

Secondly,
It's the SUGGESTION section on the forum. He was making a SUGGESTION. *gasps for breath* maybe with a little sarcasm yes, but he wants to improve the forum and the game im sure. What about all the people making so many threads about nerfing NR? they don't get closed do they?! How is this fair?


As i said at the start of this thread, why start this thread? There are already about 10 of the same one..? umm do the moderators want a forum of nerfing natures renewal? fair enough if they do but pls tell us if thats the way its headed.

/whynotclosethemostpointlessthreadever

Or how about this simple solution: when a spirit is summoned, it dispells all nearby spirits with the same effect. Problem solved.

looks like no1 knows the answer to my question therefor spirit spammers is perfectly legit

I dunno, that paragraph looks a hell of a lot like sarcasm to me. Maybe you're just retarded.

Let me remind the people that refuse to read.

THIS ISN'T ABOUT NERFING NR OR REMOVING SPIRITS FROM THE GAME PERIOD. This is about the ability to spam sheer numbers of the SAME spirit. If you can't see what's wrong with that then I can't help you there.

Think of it like this. Every single spell in this game that you can cast is replaced by the same spell when cast anew, right? Why should this be any different? I need someone to answer that for me.

3LvL20'sROast_Stealer, you didn't even read the post, so you don't even deserve an answer. Not ONCE did I mention NR. These builds aren't limited to just one spammer. Everyone has a a spirit or two that they cast as soon as they can. (Mind you things recharge mighty quick with Quickening Zephyr and Serpents Quickness).

Remember that rangers have the second best armor (can't tank, HAH!) and probably the best armor against elemental dmg. Throw up a ward against elements with the said spirits up and no rain of meteor storms is gonna take them out. (That is if you can even get it off. Mind you Rangers are mighty good interruptors themselves.) You yourself said that you haven't fought against this type of group so you probably don't know that Fertile Season affects spirits taking their HP into unreal amounts for a 'spirit'

Zell Murasame has right on the dot. That's the only thing that needs to happen in order to make things ok. I'm not saying to remove spirits. I'm not saying to remove multiple spirits of different effect at the same time. I'm just saying that the idea of spamming a specific spirit 10 times on a map is a little absurd.

"Knows how to do it well" - so there IS some kind of strategy or skill involved? Is that what you are saying?

If we're going to nerf this, we might as well nerf the monks who spam healing spell upon healing spell - I hate having to take what seems like forever killing them or their teammates - it's just not fair!!

The way the pro-nerfers are talking on this board, one would think that the top guilds on the ladder are all made up of Spirit-Spamming Rangers. Since that is not the case, this particular group would seem to be very beatable to me - using the right grouping, skills, and strategy. Just like a group of healing and protection monks who can spam and spam the same spell again and again, keeping themselves alive indefinately - yet I don't see a bunch of guilds at the top with this kind of group either.

Hanok Odbrook
Real Millennium Group Guild
http://www.realmillenniumgroup.com/guild.html
Truth * Knowledge * Peace

I have to say that's a great idea. I haven't made up my mind whether I think spirits need to be 'nerfed' yet. But I am getting tired of trying to find a counter to them. And I think, if there is a working counter, it would take so much organization and skill, that it would be hard to pull off. Therefore, only one type of spirit at a time would be great. Just pick ones you need to kill, then kill the rangers. I think this would level the playing field a bit. And the rangers would just need to use more 'organization and skill' to ensure the spirits they need are always down.

ditto, he's got the right idea.

What they're moaning about is not so much when its down, just the immediate effect of removing all the enchantments and hexes when it comes down.

Lingering Curse kinda has the same effect, except it gives half effectiveness on healing which IMO is worse than having double time to cast hexes and enchantments. However, Lingering Curse though can be countered by Renewal seems as though its a hex...

Como, the "Problem Sovled" I was refering to was the issue about encaging yourself in spirits to make you unreachable. Perhaps I should take a look at Nature Renewal, but I don't think there'd be a problem with it (from what I understand about the skill setups) if the spirits couldn't be so numerous or they had no corpereal sustenence... meaning you can't walk through them.

Well spirits do get in the way of both teams, so they have to be strategically placed in some cases.

When you think about it, they are strategically placed because the Rangers are shooting over them and say a Warrior has to run through like, a maze of spirits whilst getting nuked by 5 rangers on the way. When the Warrior gets past this, 'Spirit Maze', he has near enough every condition known to man i.e. he/she is bleeding, poisoned, crippled, on fire etc.

All spirits are strategically placed, you just to understand the placement of them and to do that, you have to work in one of these Ranger teams first.

I guess it just comes down to it being a strategy. This isn't something anyone fresh out of the Academy could do, I imagine.

I guess I can't really make up my mind on pro or con for this, but it is a strategy, and there is a counter to every strategy. Let's do some quick brainstorming...

Weaknesses:
-They are trapped in the circle, try using ranged attacks and spells?
-Spirits take 5 seconds to cast, so if they start raising like 6 spirits, perhaps rush?
-Having all of these spirits must be taxing on both the Energy and the skill slots, so they no longer have as much room for other essentials.

So far, we can consider using... let's see... anything but a Warrior (not too hard), rushing or interupts (Ranger or Mesmer), and draining Energy (Mesmer). Seems to me that you need a little Elite called Power Block.

But then again, that's just my two cents.

Ok here's my 2 c

I personally think that spirits seem to be overpowered. So overpowered that when ever a PUG encounters a spirit team, a defeat is more or less garanteed. Their radius is simply too large. Using Nr as an example, we actually see a spell that disables some classes for over a minute. Backfire, empathy etc disable them for seconds. Most people in PvP when hit by either, either get someone to remove it or simply wait it out. U cant exactly wait out spirits if they are on for above a minute. Alot of things happen in 10 seconds - let alone 60 (or 112).

What I believe would be the solution to the problem from the player side (i.e. us)

1. Someone figure out a counter to it that is resonably easy to implement (not something that involes taking more than 3 slots from the skill bar)
2. Stop playing PvP

I am sure if the players playing HoH and PvP was reduced drastically, the GM would have to do something about the situation. Or even if the configuration of teams in a large proportion of the teams in the HoH was 90% rangers and 10% monks, the gms have to do something because there is an imbalance.

If u do say that the spirit spammers is a valid strat, and is NOT overpowered, then do tell us how u have been countered before while spamming it.

anyway, that's my 2 c worth

I've read the first couple of posts but when i saw they were just complints I deciede not to bother reading any further.
Here are a few suggestions for how to counter this build.

Earthquake is a loveley one beacuse it inficts some decent dmg while knocking down (And therefore disruptin) all the palyers in the radius, therefore preventing their casting.
Meteor shower is also another useful nuke as it contuniously knocks down the opposition.

Edge of extinction is a great spirt to kill other spirts with. If you can drop one of these and keep it healed when the other spirts hit their timer expire (Or you kill them) the chain reaction should be enough to wipe all spirts away.

Cry of frustiation is also another way to stoop these rangers dead in their tracks.
Energising winds is a great way to counter the zpeherys and slow down their recast time on their spirngs.

Epedemic or fevered dreams with mind burn or several other nasty conditions.

Spiteful spirt is guarenteed to put the hurt on the enimie party if their spamming.
Power block or balckout can stop a particularly annoying spammer.

I haven't tested this but does scourge healing effect healing spring?
Panic or Enegry surge should work well on this group too.
Signet of weariness also.

I'm obviously very luucky as to not have run into this unbeatable team yet. I've heard our oppents say healing ball quite a few times in referance to the alter holding side but it's never been anything we couldn't deal with.

How is this team killing the opposition btw? Or are they specificy for alter holding battles?

With Fertile Season up every ranger has upwards of 900 health.

Problem is you take for granted that these rangers will do anything but lay down spirits or heal spring. It's an 8 man ranger group.. you only need 2 or 3 set aside for spirit/heal spring. The rest pack a healthy dose of poison arrow, incendiary, kindle/ignite, melandru's, maybe even choking gas. Anything that isn't insta-cast will most likely get interrupted.

aoe spells would seem the most effective, but you forget that most of the spells have +2 second casting times (you better know they'll be interrupted). And you even suggested throwing up Energizing Wind? You just made all those spells that much more interruptable.


I like the idea of using all the different spirits. I just don't like the idea of spamming sheer numbers, just seems kind of mindless to me.

Sigh. Look spirts die on their own you know. Once their timer expires. Since this group has been camping and spamming their spirts are dying on a regular basis. And they are replacing them. Drop an edge and when they die from "Natural" causes the chain reaction should wipe the lot out. Just be awear that with this up killing an enime party straight away is not a good idea if the edge didn't drop to! Best to keep them busy, distract their spirt spamming (Distracting shot, leach sigbnet, knockdown, any warrior disrupting ability, Earthquake, meteor shower.) and take them out slowly. Use stances or enchantment to block oath shot, or blind them. You can group blind with belly smash or glimmering mark. Or just use fevered dreams or epedemic. Once you've removed the spirts from a One-Trick pony build like this they are defensless. It's exactly why you don't see the spike build much anymore. Once you know the counter they're history.

[Earthquake is a loveley one beacuse it inficts some decent dmg while knocking down (And therefore disruptin) all the palyers in the radius, therefore preventing their casting.
Meteor shower is also another useful nuke as it contuniously knocks down the opposition.]

Sorry Pal, but balanced stance takes care of these two skills easily without KD and you can use a skill with balanced stance. No KD for 10 seconds, plenty of time to put out a spirit. Better read up on your counters before you go making false statements like this skill will nip em in the bud. lol And balanced stance is instant so "no disrupting." You also suffer no extra damage bonus from a critical with balanced stance.

Right go here to beat em.
How to beat spirt spammers.

Now shut up and play.

Okay, yes you can counter healing balls, Meteor Shower. GG cya later. Now, how many successful groups run meteor shower? Not many, so yes I agree that the healing ball is incredibly annoying. My guild has however killed several of them The only good one we ran into was in HoH, and they held it for a good long time.

But yeah, any other map besides altars, or if you take the altar first, GG, cya later. It's just time and take the proper amount of coordiation and hitting proper targets. But yes, as I already stated, the healing ball has only worked on my guild once, and that was in HoH.