The Point of Origin for PvP Complaints

This idea struck me today and it was quite a revelation about all the issues that PvP players are bringing forward these days. I've mentioned it on a couple other threads and have gotten no response, so I decided to post it independently.

<< My apologies to the moderators in advance if they don't believe another thread on this issue is needed. I just believe strongly that this is the crux of the problem we all are discussing and I would like to bring it to the community's attention. >>

My thesis is this: Prior to the game's release, ANet advertised and promoted it as a PvP experience. It was supposed to be PvP focused and players were supposed to be able to PvP right out of the box (ie. Counterstrike or Battlefield). Many PvP enthusiests signed up in the Alpha and Beta phases to participate in the development of what they saw as a PvP game. When the game was released however, what we saw was a game with significant focus in BOTH PvP and PvE elements. There was also a significant connection between PvP and PvE through the unlocking elements. The result: the PvP community feels as if it was mislead. They believed they were getting a game in which they could enjoy pure PvP without any PvE activity. And therefore they are upset, they feel like they were pushed aside and disregarded.

Now, does this mean ANet produced a "bad" product? Not at all. Guild Wars is an outstanding game. The problem (from the PvP perspective) is that it is not the game ANet advertised, and it was not the game they promised. Furthermore, the public comments that ANet has made lead the PvP community to believe that ANet doesn't care about the long-term stability and growth of the PvP game. They are afraid that Guild Wars has become, in essence, "free World of Warcraft" and that ANet has switched their emphasis to foster THAT game concept instead of the open PvP concept that was initially envisioned. The end result: the mass of criticism now coming from the PvP community and the mass defection of the top PvP guilds.

This is not in any way intended to be a "flame ANet" topic, or a "PvP vs. PvE war" topic. I simply am trying to share a concept which I believe goes a long way to explaining the roots of the problem that the entire Guild Wars community now faces. Above all, I want to make it clear that I want this game to succeed. I've enjoyed this game more than any other I've played in years. This idea, and this topic, are my contribution to the ongoing discussion within the community at large.

Please feel free to discuss this constructively.

EDIT: Regarding ANet and advertising. In response to Aniewiel's inquery I went back and read through all of the ANet press releases and E3 reports I could find. PvP and PvE are both mentioned in equal measure. Given this, I feel I must retract my comment about ANet's direct advertising. I believe my thesis is still plausible because the PvP community certainly feels that it was mislead by ANet in the Alpha/Beta phases, as well as in the months after the game's release. Also (and this is based on impressions only) it appears as though PvPers were far more represented in the Alpha stages. Now I'm not saying this definitively. But based on the available evidence, it does appear to be the case.

Thanks for checking me on that Aniewiel. I should have done that before I went forward with the post.

I would like to see relevant links to the places where Guildwars was advertised as a primarily PvP game. I'm not saying that they -didn't- do this but I would like to -see- it.

I can only speak for myself when I say that I would NOT have preordered GW if this had been the advertising I had read. I started following the game via Gamespot in spring 2004 so I realize that some of the alpha testing and such had been going on already by that point. Still the advertising that was released to the public did not, that I noticed, emphasize PvP over PvE. Perhaps it did in the early alpha stages? Even so, is it not the perrogative of the developer to make changes that they feel will best 'sell' their game? Alpha is just that: Alpha, a beginning, not an end product.

I am not a PvPer nor will I ever be one other than to occasionally humiliate myself in UT2004. The game would not have appealed to me at all if it had been advertised as having its primary focus on PvP.

Does anyone have copies of or links to anywhere that says this?

You hit the head on the nail. If you focus solely on one aspect of this game, you're bound to get bored. It's the same thing with every other game. If you balance the experience of pvp and pve or switch back and forth, you're going to lengthen the lifespan of this game by months. Pvp only players are complaining that its such a grind to find skills they need to ounter builds, but seem to forget that theres faction there for a reason. Yes, you still need to accumulate large sums of faction as opposed to a pve player who can simply complete a mission and buy new skills. However, they seem to forget that this is also available to them. This game is still balanced between the focus of pvp and pve.

Mmmmm, an odd revelation I must say and one that does not speak for all pvpers, as well. Anet did not ignore PvP at any means. If you think of it in Anet's shoes, adding a PvE aspect may appeal to more players and be able to sell better. Going back to what said, you can unlock anything you want with pvp or pve now with the new prize system. The biggest problem is the waiting to make a team. After that factor is the problem that your team is no good. So the biggest flaw is the grinding in which Guild Wars was supposed to cut out. You may not be grinding for items and skills, but you are grinding to get exposed to better players. Only with practice, patience, and questioning can you become a good player. Guild Wars did what they promised though, it is a game of skill and also a game of strategy in which you incorporate skills to compliment each other to fulfill a team goal.

Here ya go...

http://guildwars.com/

you might have to search around a bit. but it's all there.

Things such as "Built for competition" and "You don't have to play for countless hours to get to the fun bits" and if that's not enough for you, take a look at the box.

i do not have links but i have kept very close watch on everything i could read from the COMPANY not wishful speculation by others.

i am PVE and if it had not been advertized as equal parts of both i would not have even used my january beta magazine key.

i did and had a wonderful time and preordered the next day.

everything since has had at least equal emphasis on the PVE and if anything is even a bit more on the PVE side but who knows what will happen in the next 6 months

i will wait and find out

Double Post:

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/guild...w_6101982.html

Watch the video on that page!

nah thats not it

but it has to do a lot with advertisements and gameplay pre release.

and even on the gamebox.




________________
Dac The Hork

Please folks... I would like this to be a constructive discussion about the issue at hand. I did the research and read a bunch of press releases, E3 reports, and game previews... both from the official Guild Wars site and gaming webpages. PvP and PvE are both mentioned often. As I mentioned in my edit of the original post, I retract the comment about official ANet advertising. I do still believe my thesis is plausible, for the other reasons I explained.

Now if we can keep things positive, constructive, and on topic you would all have my thanks.

From ANet's Game Synopsis page at their website:

I have 500+ hours invested and only have the skill icons and equipment open for my two primary characters, and maybe 15 total things open for the other characters. Can I just run out and compete with my awesome new build ideas for the other classes? Not without grinding out the requirements I can't. Absolutely insane to influence competition this way.

The "Consolidation of Community Requests" thread that recently opened up is a sham until it at least acknowledges this crucial issue is still a VERY important topic to be discussed. Instead it is currenty a topic off the table, so at least for PvP players this thread has some worth towards collectively addressing this on-going problem.

I submitted this in the thread that will send questions to ANet on Friday that summarizes my feelings on PvP problems:

We debated this topic here. I'd like a person who disagrees with me to read it through before responding with any alternative points that I and others have already addressed.

In the video he mentions skill>time a billion times.

It makes me sad hearing it again

On my pre-order box, the only direct mention of PVP I can find is a line about "working with guild members to reach the highest levels of tournament play.” I bought Guild Wars having no idea that it was so PVP heavy.

He repeatedly states that it is about player skill and not hours spent playing... then contradicts himself by describing what the current problem is - going through PvE play mechanics to play PvP. That is absolutely basing success in PvP on the amount of hours spent playing. They need to just be honest and throw this "player skill not hours played" line in the trash. I have fun with PvE, but for PvP that's not what this game is about.

Could this quote not also apply to PvE players? Despite what some may think, there is an element of skill and teamwork required for PvE as well.

Goku: We got it on the video. Don't repeat yourself please.

Weezer: "The Fun Bits" might be PvP for you but that doesn't necessarily have the same meaning for everyone. Please try to be constructive and/or informative since that is the OP's request and the tenor of this thread. Sarcasm has its place but I asked a legitimate question.

Arredondo: I would like to see -official- press releases, interviews, etc. if you can find them rather than other's interpretation of what the company intended. I think that those sorts of links are of great interest to a lot of people if you can find them and, certainly, they might shore up the argument a great deal.

The quote "Built for Competition" doesn't just mean PvP! It can mean 100 different things to 100 different people. I can compete against my guildmates to see who can run the fastest to Yak's Bend. I can compete with them to see who can unlock the most skills in the shortest time. Yes, I agree that competition is one element of the game.

The box also says, "Explore a world that dynamically grows and changes with new content while you play."

"Jump right into a world of thousands where each mission is created just for you. Live a fast paced adventure without travel time delay, high death penalties or spawn camping. Join with friends or play solo with a band of skilled henchmen."

Then comes the essence quote in the lower right hand side of the box, "Ascend as a team to the highest levels of competition, a truly global tournament to control the Hall of Heroes. World fame and fortune await the victors."

And in the manual that came with the game, there are 139 pages devoted to the PvE side and 4 pages to PvP.

I do NOT discount PvP but that is not what the game was soley expected to be at least according to the box advertisements.

Believe me when I tell you that I WANT PvP to succeed, to be less grinding for you all, to be what it is that you want it to be. I do not, however, want that to come at the expense of PvE. I do think that both can be done well and in good time.

That line I quoted came directly under the topic header in bold: Built for Competition

The video is a goldmine for sarcasm. I was almost in tears by the end of the video.

yeah

watch the video if you skipped it above

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/guild...w_6101982.html


btw the map is actually Siege of Fort Koga shown

an old fave of mine.

Please... ladies and gentlemen, while the video in question may speak to ANet's thinking on the game and is therefore relevant, it is not the "be all, end all" of this topic. I would ask that we not lose sight of the overall issue. Thank you.

I think the video shows our entire argument spoken by A.net

ps. sorry diddnt see the delete option (im retarded eh)

The only skill required in PvE is pulling, and that's basically 'make sure the little red dots on the mini map are spaced out, and try to get as few as possible into your big white circle'. With a half decent Monk and a smidgeon of understanding of aggro management, you can bypass just about anything.

I watched a guildmate's brother get to the Crystal Desert in 3 days, skipping so many quests he barely had enough to put together a coherent build. Yet, he burned through the content.

PvE skill isn't skill, it's common sense.

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/guild...w_6101982.html

When I watch that video, I remember how fun the game used to be. I wish it was beta right now... even if we could only play 3 days a month.

The point is, it used to be a PvP game. Anyone would have told you that during the beta (followed by someone who would say the PvE is good too). Then, they tried to 'enhance' the PvE part. But in the process, they screwed the competitive community. Then, they seemingly forgot to add any new PvP content (oh yeah... those couple of new arenas are huge!1one), and they didn't even continue to balance out the skills. The alpha testers... the guys that are supposed to find and alert A.Net of problems, found things that should be fixed, and they weren't.

There is simply not enough PvE content in Guild Wars for it to be an RP game. The storyline sucks, the game is extremely linear, there are no good long term goals. There's nothing to keep someone playing after they beat the game once. Twice if they're bored. And three times if they're trying to unlock things for PvP.

If they had stuck with their original design, they'd have a lot more long term players, and a better game. Do you believe that the PvE only guys are really going to play this repetitive linear game for 7 months till the next expansion? After becoming that bored with it, I wouldn't even buy an expansion for a game I'll burn though in a couple days. The PvP was the endgame. In other words: What you do once you complete the insanely easy and short PvE segment. But, unfortunatly, here's a model of what the game is like now:

|-(--PvE--)-(-----------------------------Grind---------------------------)-(-PvP->

During that grind, most players just get sick of it and leave. Then, even if you make it past it with your sanity, you're not going to the Hall of Heroes by yourself, no matter how many skills and runes you have. So then you have to wait to find other people who have all their unlocks. Which is about a 1:1,000,000,000 chance.

Verdict: Grind made GW unfun.

If you think theres any kind of grind in this game, you need to play wow, ff11, or everquest. Compared to those games, there is no grind here.

Hrmm.... what is this grind that you keep complaining about? for skills? psh. play through the game once. Boom. there's 2 classes of skills unlocked. Go back and do the class-specific ones for some of the other classes after ascension. There's your basic skills. From there you can spend skill points with that single pve character to unlock skills as you need them. Alternately, use faction to unlock those (or unlock items). Psh. you complain about grind here. consider most other games. You want to try a pvp build? Well first you gotta level up the pvp character. Want to try some other build? level up another character. THAT's grind. The only thing I see that would be useful was if the 1 skill per profession quests unlocked the skill for each profession rather than just your current primary/secondary.

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/guild...w_6101982.html

watch the above movie, as you can see "grind" is a term for all the stupid crap we must do before we can play what we want.

The above video is the best argument I have seen for our demands.

Do NOT post the video link again, please. It has been amply spamm...I mean posted in other statements.

I have $100,000. Bill Gates has $40,000,000,000. Does that suddenly mean that I have no money? No, it only means that I have less money than Bill Gates, but I still have money.

Just because those other games have more grind does NOT mean that Guild Wars has no grind.

The point of this post is to show you that this arguement is illogical and has no place in a rational discussion. I hope that you refrain form using non sequitur arguements such as this one in the future, because it really doesn't add to the debate at all.

There is "grind" in this game, since grind is a subjective notion, if someone feels as though there is "grind" then for that person there IS grind.

This is off the main topic, and I have not a care:

I am really getting tired of listening to other gamers speaking for ME. I have had just about enough of that shit. Really.

PVP-oriented gamers are the same thing as PVE-oriented gamers, they simply fight a different foe, one is programmed, one is sadistic and brilliant. That is where this whole entire miasma of better than you and worse than this ends. PERIOD.

You are speaking for YOU, and anyone you say agree's with you is still speaking for THEM, not for me, and anyone else.

So stop trying to feed everyone who reads this the same thing I see on countless posts "YOU are not the community, and I am not YOU"

With all due respect sir, I never claimed to be speaking for anybody but myself. The idea presented is my own. Everyone who posts is free to agree or disagree with it as they so choose. What I am trying to do is get the community to work together by putting ideas and concepts on the table for everybody to discuss. At no point do I claim to be an advocate or spokesman for anyone. If you don't feel that the thesis I have presented is worthy of consideration, then that is your opinion which you are wholly entitled to. But that is no reason to not allow the discussion to go forward.

SOT: This is a quote directly from Aracos79's original post. I think it quite clearly illustrates that he was stating HIS opinion and wanted to share it with the community.

You were off on this one. Believe me, I doubt anyone could so eloquently speak for you as well as you do for yourself....and probably wouldn't want to either.

Now, everyone, back to topic please. Thanks!

I loved the PvE. I like to PvP, mostly GvG. But after going through the game, I knew the story line and wished to PvP. I am a Guildleader of a guild that has enough members to GvG, though not all of them can be the class combo required for certain builds. This makes it so I needed to unlock basically everything in the game so I could accomodate the missing link in whatever build we were using for that particular GvG. So, I went through the game 2 more times. Now, you may say there is no grind, that compared to other games (which I have played) that the grind is minimal, in this you are wrong.

My first character, I spend 350 hours beating the game, doing every quest for skills on top of spending countless hours doing FoW runs to unlock all the skills for W/E.

My second character, a R/Me had a tougher time collecting skills after beating the game and collecting all the skills through quests and available skill points. With 30+ skills to get still, he needed to grind in UW for hours and hours. I'm still working on him (12 more skills to go) and have logged 300 hours on him now.

My third character, a N/Mo had a easy time of it. 100 hours, beat the game and smited his way through most of his skills needed. Wow, beaing a monk was really easy. He still needs a couple skills but I have the main skills I wanted and solo/smiting has just gotten so boring I feel like puking when I do it.

So in total, about 700 hours played and I have almost all of the skills for all classes unlocked. I've also spend a good many hours GvG'ing and unlocking mods for weapons. This to me is the most absurd thing I am doing at the time because with 700 hours in PvE, I still have not unlocked anywhere near all the max mods and runes I would need for competitive PvP. Sure, I don't "need" them but after that much time spent exploring the world you would have thought I would definately have them all right ? Hell no, Now on top of grinding for all the skill points, I have to grind it out in PvP for unlocks.

Well, I've burned myself out near completion of my "grinding to get everything quest" and have nearly nothing left in me to continue playing besides GvG with my guildmates on the weekends.

"We don't want the quests to be boring. How many fed-ex quests can you go on before you get bored?"

"You won't see the same creatures in one area as another. All of them will be distinct and we won't just use color swaps"

L . . . M . . . A . . . O

(para-phrased from the video)

Yep... definitaly hypocritical.

I feel a little bit like this type of thinking is sadly "reversed"... and it's probably the games fault for making people this way. You shouldn't NEED everything unlocked just to "enjoy pvp", anymore than you NEED to be lvl 60 with the best gear in WoW to "enjoy pvp"... I have many friends who are having the time of their lives in the lvl30 battlegrounds, so much so that they are refusing to level up. (although it might have something to do with them pwning all the lvl25'ers in there :P )

So what do we need? Some way of playing against people closer to your "level" perhaps... now actual "level" in this game means very little, but it seems like the primary cause of envy and power is the number of unlocks you have. Maybe some tiers based on what percentage of unlocks the team has?

I know from personal experience, trying to encourage a friend of mine who's only played through half the game, to roll up a pvp character, join me in the team arenas, where we would grab 2 PUG people and play - we all got instantly minced multiple times, and it wasnt exactly the most fun introduction for him. We need better venues for beginners to play... that restricts the amount of power you can bring in. (and preferably not a random arena, so we can help train friends and guildies.) Maybe a template-only team arena? Maybe Yaks Bend pvp restricts you to only the stuff you can acquire prior to yaks bend?

I guess the upcoming intra-guild pvp would help things.

Also, you said "after all that exploring the world I should have got them all, right?!?!" ... that's a bit of an extreme assumption... I personally would have "expected" to unlock everything by the time the next lot of stuff came out ... ie. a couple of months before next year's expansion. But that's me.

If you want to try and use my words against me, read it right. Key word there COMPARED. I didn't say there was no grind. Read it in its entirity. If you want my argument, read up instead of forming ignorant opinions.

This is a pointless, straw-man argument sort of thing. We all know the REAL debate is whether there is TOO MUCH "grind", or not. Arguing about the existence of grind reduces the discussion into merely a debate about the semantics of the word "Grind".

300 hours + to beat the game with one character? And a second one?

I mean no offense, but you must have been an awful lot of stuff not directly character improvement related to stack up that many hours without getting skills naturally... If you really want to go throught the game fast, and get an awful lot of skills/ skill point, you'd do it in... 20 hours? even with no guild help...
My level 20 characters always seem to have excess skill points! I got a hard time getting less than 20 at any given time! I capture Elite I don't need or don't even feel like playing anytime soon just for collection purpose!

There are only 2 things which are difficult to unlock:
- superior runes; the randomness of it in PvE makes it very tough to unlock a specific superior rune. Good news, PvP faction help you unlock the exact rune you want. For minor/ major runes, casual loot with no farming somehow gave me pretty much everything, I have not spent anywhere near 300 hours on one character, and noone gave me any armour.
- items improvement:it's very tough and time consuming to unlock a specific item in PvE. Again, faction is the answer.

I do agree those two categories are very long and tough to unlock in PvE, but now they are much faster to unlock in PvP, and I would not say that you can't have fun in PvP without all sup runes and all weapon mods.

Louis,

700 hours. Played through the game completely 3 times. Every mission, every quest, every bonus, hours and hours of FoW and UW. Hell, I'm a guildleader, I've redone missions and quests countless times. I've gotten thousands of faction for unlocks.

I have not gotten them all. Therefore, I must redo content which I have already completed many times before simply to aquire things.

That my friend, is grind.

Doing all of this, I looked at my characters and thought, "After completing the game with my character, doing all the missions legit as well as the bonus', I am dumbfounded why I now need to go grind out xp for another 30 levels to aquire skill points". Skill points ? Don't you mean levels ? 20,000 xp X 30 needed skills to max out a character = 600,000 xp!!

That is a grind.

EDIT : That's 600,000 xp on top of being level 20 already.

EDIT x2 : To answer the question of not NEEDING everything to compete and have fun. What fun is it to have less choice of skills or -60 health than your opponent ? What fun is it for an entire PvP only guild to have to go up against a build they have no counter for using premades ? No, having flare and a wooden stick may be fun for some people, but I don't like bringing such tools to a fight where my opponent can rain meteors from the sky and shoot lightning bolts out his arse.

Seems like you've done a lot of things not directly related to getting skills in your 600hours. Then again, it's a valid point that you should be doing whatever you want to do, and getting unlocks for it - you shouldn't need to be playing in a special way to get skills.

Having said that tho, if you DO play specifically to get skills, you can get them all a fair bit quicker. After all, you gain the first 12 levels of a character incredibly quickly - then, a short run to droknars by a guildie and you can buy all the skills you want.

Finally, regarding the "all skills unlocked"... think about it. A person (such as a beginner, or even me) might not WANT to play in a UAS environment, where his naive early attempts at just bringing his normal PVE build and playing with PUGs doing the same, gets them instantly wiped by specialised teams. There's something to be said for playing in a limited environment, everyone making do with what they have, and overcoming the imperfections in their skillsets by how they play together. That's why currently Random Arena is the most fun for me. (because I'm ok personally but suck in "optimising" team builds.)

Of course, it becomes a problem when they come up against people with a large amount of unlocks ... so my point is, it's not the lack of UAS that's the problem, its the fact that people with fewer unlocks face up with people with much more unlocks.

In fact - there's an argument for skill points being limited, and skills being randomly available - kind of like a trading card game system. Then you wouldnt see "flavour of the month" or fashionable builds being repeated ad-nauseum anymore - people would have to take what they have and make the best of it, and guilds can acquire some individuality based on what sorts of skills they have available to them.

It might not stop some lucky team from getting the skills required for a spirit spam build pwning everyone else, but it WILL stop every man and his dog from running the same spirit spam build. (the first is a balance issue that needs to be solved regardless anyway.)

It depends on what you're looking for in a game. Some people like rigid strategy and winning - I prefer variability, variety, and requiring luck and the ability to adapt. That's what's more fun for me, above winning or losing.

I'm tempted to say "Refer to TGH forums for an exhaustive list of references evidence and discussion" there has been so much there with plenty of redundancy. I've been through the archives there on so many occasions and it's a lot to go through. So I'll just submit one picture that we have on the Karma forum. It's not the best piece of evidence, but I have to do some work soon

It boils down to personal preception, Having a insta PvP chr, with a template which will contain a variety of skills including elites to start with as soon as you have installed the game basically answers to there claim of instant action and skill is basically in using the templates to there best advantage, I am certain a good group of friends who actually communicate with each other could use just the templates and do really well in the PvP game. I am not saying they will be the number 1 guild instantly, lets face it you are never the number one player unless you play a game for hours and hours this goes for all games, PC and real life sports.

A.net have lived up to the PR, but like I said it is individual as to how far you want to take it. Too behonest I think its time some of the people around here laid off the caffine and sat back. It is a game, and the vast majority actually enjoy it for what it is just that a game.
There are over 400,000 subscribers and 1000 listed on the ranks and some of them have only pvp'd 10 times, if each guild has 20 members this only accounts for half of the subscribers in total, PvP is part of a fun game and not the route of all evil as some of the hardcore seem to post about.