A PvE'ers Point of View And Complaint About The State of The Game

The getting 8 people online I can go with, the unlocking skills thats a myth, only the top guilds with the hardcore PvP players worry about that. Yes there are many dead guilds, which is why using the top 1000 actually put things into perspective as they are clearly active guilds, even if they are some dodgy outings by players making multi guilds to attemped to cheat there way to the top.
I would also go with the Hall of Heros, as HoH is actually more fun than GvG.
It would be really interesting to know though, the actual amout of players that PvP against PvE as a primary focus.
I do honestly beleive the balance will still actually tip in favor of PvE over all.

I'd like them give some reward for the completion of quests -- specifically gold

Rather than people doing Griffin Runs at 1k-2k a run and UW runs

Instead people could form a group and complete the quests in FoW -- 10,000 XP and 1000gp ( fixed ) for every member for completion of the first quest

Something like this could shift over the focus from farming mobs solo -- to teamwork and quest-rewarded gameplay.

They'd have to ensure that no part of the area could be solo'd ( not that it would matter the gold reward is FIXED ) -- surely they can do this though...?? Just add a nice selection of classes in each mob -- rather than 10 mobs of [creature-name]

"Ooh look the now common 105 build" -- great the mobs would poison, burn and bleed rather than exact out straight dmg...


The fixed gold reward would even be incremented as more missions are successful, for example: 1000gp to each member for the first, 2000gp to each for completion of the 2nd mission, etc...

Finally, no longer would you have to make a specific "farming-build" or farm at all...

A good team that completes four or more quests could make a good few thousand excluding all the drops they make -- this reward would be open to every ascended player and every class combination

Could this ensure that, and I quote: "You'll prove your worth with every battle -- as skill not hours played, decides your fate" ..??

Personally i very rarely play PvP. i have a multitude of PvE characters and yes it is more boring the 3rd or 4th time round but not grossly so. the only problems i have with starting again is with the attitudes of other players on their 3rd or 4th char that presume that they know best and that all should listen unto them.
The constant stream of enemies in PvE is i think rewarding. i love Witmans Folly and all the thousands of Grawl, there is something rewarding about clearing them even is i do just get 4 intricate neclaces for my trouble.
One thing i would like to see would be a larger scale form of PvP or PvE in which there are say a plane of battle with the population capacity of Ascalon City where people can go to take part in enormous battles with 50 aside... with npcs. it is doable considering the city zones. or even being able to form groups of say 20 to attempt to hold a doorway indefinatly against hordes of creatures.
I find the nerfing of drops annoying as even with my multitude of chars i still have no spare money to help guildies but it is not ANets fault, botters are the problem.
Linear?...yes i'll grant you but it does not detract from my enjoyment as i find the story long enough to allow me to forget my previous experiences in an area (apart from Elona and Thunderhead....grrrr).

In conclusion i do not think PvE is broken however i accept the points of those who do.

What does PvE stand for? Player verse Elementalist? or Player verse Enemy

do you have any idea what kind of havoc that could wreak on even slightly older systems

Before buying this game, I expected PvE to be boring and linear and PvP to be brilliant.

When I played it I found that PvE was boring and linear, while PvP was brilliant.

Apart from some balancing fixes in PvP (NR and spirits), I think Anet should definitely work on making PvE more compelling. It is so...shabby right now.

player vs environment

wait wait wait

so you got exactly what you expected

good job

Sadly, I have to agree with a lot of the concerns that have been voiced so far in this thread.

The maps are indeed mazes. There are no open areas whatsoever. It's very much a case of walking the beaten path, especially when you take into consideration that all the monsters spawn the exact same place every time, right down to the last little grawl. That, and the fact that A.Net seems intent on recycling every single monster in the game. I don't want to fight the same critters all over again, even if they are a different color this time. I want variety, true variety! Most monsters also seem to use only player skills, there are very few abilities that are actually unique to monsters.

Add to all this the inability to truly affect the environment that surrounds you in any meaningful way, and GW suddenly seems a lot more like a grinding experience than a real RPG. It's fun to play through once or twice. After that, well, there's really nothing more to be done.

I do appreciate the flat power curve of the game though. That's one thing I really hope A.Net sticks with, since it effectively does away with the superinflation of items (as well as the need to grind for said items) that has plagued so many other RPGs.


ManaCraft

Personally, I wish they hadn't tried attaching the PvE half of the game to a linear storyline. It's true you can avoid most of it by simply roaming the killing zones rather than taking to the missions, but some Missions just cannot be avoided if you want to get to other areas. You can't get to the desert without doing the missions in the Druid areas. You can't get to Ring of Fire island without doing the Thunderhead Keep mission in the Shiverpeak Mountains. After beating the game once, I didn't really care to be forced to endure this storyline again and again for all my other characters.

I don't necessarily agree with the complaint about the monsters. I think the fact that the monster groups have different classes makes them unique. Usually in an RPG, only one group will represent one class and as time progresses, you just get a different name. Example: Slime, Red Slime, Blue Slime, Silver Slime. All the same warrior type, but just a different name and level of difficulty. Here, you get all the monsters with a different name and different grade of skill to them. The tribal and sentient monsters get classes similar to the humans, while the lesser creatures only represent one or two classes between them. It is a difference from the standard of what's normally represented in RPGs.

I also like that the enemies will attack each other sometimes when they're of a different species. In Snake Dance, you can sneak by a whole horde of Shiverpeak Dwarves without fearing for your life as long as there's at least one Griffon challenging their position.

Oh, and there are open areas, which some including the original poster has already hinted at. The fields around Kryta, for example, are very open. Lots of rolling hills and abandoned villages to wander in. The desert is also quite open, as should be expected. Although I am quite disappointed that they went so far as to put some invisible walls on several sand dunes that anyone would otherwise be able to simply climb over. But for the most part, this game does consist of areas you can prettymuch follow one path on and be somewhere. Playing with my first character post-searing, I made it to Borlis Pass just by following the dirt path west from Ascalon City. You can still get lost in these mazes, though, which I think is supposed to be part of the fun. If you're not sitting with a printed out map in your lap then in theory you should enjoy discovering all the landscapes and sight-seeing areas on your own.

What annoys me most about the areas that are open, is that despite their openness, there are enemies scattered about in such a way that it's nearly impossible to avoid running into one. If in post-searing there were fewer aggressive mobs, I think that would make the exploration experience more enjoyable. I love getting out there and seeing all I can see; I have almost the entire game mapped out on one of my characters. But it just becomes tedious and un-fun when every five steps I have to take on some group of enemies 5-10 levels lower than me just to see what's over that hill.

I don't care for PvP, but for a while I did enjoy the RPG aspect of the game. It needs to be more open, IMO, and less storyline driven, since a storyline can only be suffered through so many times before a person never wants to hear it again. I wasn't particularly amazed as I went from one Mission to the next in this game. In fact, I felt like whoever created this storyline was accusing our characters of being easily misled. From one end to the other, your character gets under the "command" of someone who's just using them. I'd like to think that after the second time, my character wouldn't want to follow anyone anywhere anymore.

As much as I complain about alot of thing in this game I'm inclined to agree this game is meant more to be a casual game that you can pick up and play.

Too bad many players are on the hardcore MMORPG side or the I wann buy the game and immediately be a uber PvP pawner....sorry getting too old for leet speak.

As a person who is the play hours on end in a dark room MMORPGer' I often get bored of this game and the people who want to rush through. I guess that why my views on this game sometimes go astray.....group hug!!

The only thing right now I am getting tired of is the drop rate is so low and the rate of inflation. It would be nice if the gold in our vaults could earn interest like the real world.This is for amour runes etc.

Actually, GW and D2 has MANY similarities.

Limited # of characters
Limited # of character slots
Linear story broken into chapters and multiple missions within chapters
Professions/Skills are mostly similar
Instanced private parties with limited party sizes
Obvious choke points that are required to pass before continuing

You're correct in one regard - the refund system is extremely handy - but it's just fixing an obvious flaw in D2.

The obvious comparisons to D2 are there, not only in what the game is like, but also what's different. It's obvious ANet (staffed by a lot of former Blizzard/Diablo programmers and designers) took the D2 model (not a bad thing in itself as it's still being played 5+ years after it was released) and used the good aprts, and fixed the broken ones, while updating the graphics, etc. The fact that they addressed the issues like refund points means they were aware of the problem to begin with.

This has probably already been said, but seriously, find a new game. There are so many games with 20 times the PvE gaming experience. This is a Pvp game 90%. I have a rather extensive gaming experiences as far as PC goes, and if you're into PvE this game is not for you.

That's really all it comes down to.

Sadly an element of truth, but only alittle bit, as A.net have state that the PvE is ust as important, hmm, niw if all the PvE players left, not sure how bad that would be, 50%+ loss of server poplation, definately not a good thing, would the PvE players buy an expansion, well that depends on what the market has to offer.

The game is ment to have a more casual focus, and is definately not a game you really want to play constantly, it has the same duration gameplaywise as a good FPS, 50-60 hours first run, then maybe another 100+ hours per month if you like the PvP, more than that and the game loses its shine just like any other game.

The thing about the no monthly is actually no biggy, not whne you look at the content and life span of the game, it is the same as every other single player game with online content, the only difference is that you don't host a server with upto 120 peeps, they do. If fact less players also encourages a tighter community especially in RP games. NWN was a prime example of this.

The skill rewards in PVE are far from meaningful to PVE players. Only a scarce number of them have any real use within the PVE game due to the sheer lack of difficulty. Therefore, the majority of these skills have little, to no use in the game, especially those skills that you can only acquire extremely late in the game. As a prime example, I have not seen a single use of the "Verata's" Necromancers skills in PVE, due to the absolute lack of Necromancer enemies that summon undead minions that late in the game, and on top of that, their use in PVP is almost as limited. These are just a few of the rewards you refer to, and barely any of them hold any value to the PVE player.

Separating PvE characters from PvP would not be such a bad thing. It allows the PvP characters to have an even playing field, and it allows for ArenaNet to pursue more ambitious designs within the PvE world separated from PvP, like the discovery of items of far superior quality compared to anything available at the moment, and many other gameplay designs pertinent only to the extention of the PvE environment. Therefore, I absolutely fail to see how separating PvE from PvP could be construed as a bad thing. It is never a good attituded to employ a closed mindset when it comes to game design. Innovation extends from creativity.

Alternatively, why not combine the two, and I don't refer to the hackeneyed fashion in which the game is currently like. I refer to the absolute disposal of the tedious missions and the mundane quests. Allow guilds to own land, and fight over the land. Build dungeons, castles, cities, or whatever fits their motif. Instead of deathmatches, you have sieges and invasions. Meanwhile, the dungeons or cities churn out critters and other things that go towards the areas around them. So, each guild can have a job board to deal with situations like that. Allow the guild quests to be random as well as allow higher ups in guilds to generate quests against other guilds.

Not to mention breeding monsters would be a fun MMO style job if you're evil.

Let the game live up to it's name: Guild Wars.

Another thing that really annoys me about the PvE experience, although I'm sure most people will disagree, is the stupid green arrow. That little thing on your compass that always tells you where to go. Stupid, I think, is exactly the appropriate term, considering the effect it has on the gameplay.

I don't really find most quests to be fun. They're too linear, even when you're wandering through open areas, because of that little green magic marker that always holds you by the hand. Go this way, talk to that guy, now go that way, talk to the next guy, now go this way again to collect your reward. It feels like a guided tour more than true questing, and it entirely removes the incentive to explore the world (which is a pity, given the extremely beautiful graphics GW has to offer) and go looking for something, because you already know which way to go, even if you've never been there before.

All in all, the stupid green arrow simply contributes to the feeling of walking the beaten path, and I wish A.Net would simply do away with it (although that's probably never going to happen). Granted, some quests are so elaborate that guidance is needed, but that can come in other shapes and forms, like NPCs giving you hints on where to go, or something as simple as a signpost.


ManaCraft

I actually stopped playing for a while and picked it up again just recently. The game is definately more fun and refreshing not playing day after day. But having said that, I'm one of those mutants that just enjoying playing the game and I'm not out to get every skill or worry about making a fortune. I have another MMORPG that is may main poison of choice.

One thing I do notice is I don't see too many Necros anymore.

no

no it doesn't

wtf

why do you people keep saying that over and over

i love pve way more than pvp, though i do partake in gvg when the guild requires it, and the 4v4 random arena on the occasion

i like pvp, it's fun, but i like pve more

i have logged nearly five hundred hours doing nothing more than pve because i enjoy it

stop speaking in absolutes

It is not a myth, unless you already have said skills. So, in essence, every new person going through the game for the first,second, or third (ect) time is going through that process, whether they realize it or not. Most people who are interested about being competitive or learning different styles will go through that process. People that dont care or are only testing the water will not go through that process.

I dont see any dates attached to the last time each guild fought or when they fought a guild of similar rank, nor do i see any times and dates when they are forced to participate within a match or lose standing.

I believe that was an effort to idiot proof the game. I stopped reading quest text very early on as a result of that green arrow, because i didnt need to know names, locations, or items as all the thinking was handled for me. This caused myself and others i know to become detached from the game and merly added to the teduim of actually playing through the game. Arrows, markers, beacons, ect are useful in a dynamic environment like pvp. In the static pve environment they are more of a nuicance at times and do not really help that much, as they just add to the distraction factor at times while the map continually pings out objective locations or monsters like some 12yr old who just figured out how to ping the map and got into a group for the first time.

You simply do not need all the skills for each class, if you actually understand the idea behind the skill system, you should know that individual class skills complement your primary / secondary class choice, a vast majority are only useful for the correct secondary / primary combo.
You auto unlock skills for the primary / secondary in game through PvE / quests without having to hunt them down. This will unlock 85%+ of skills. In the context of the original point it was. You do not need 100% of skills.

As for the top 1000 guilds that info was taken from the GW website guild ladder, also that is not as upto date as the ingame info, but is the best and most accurate you are likely to actually get a hold of. I also know that when I took a outing into GvG the guild I joined wasn't ranked within the top 1000, but after 15 matches we where in the top 500, the numbers and ranking will change reasonable fast, but you do not have to PvP for ever to get ranked in the top 1000, perhaps in the top 100. And you certainly do not need all skills to get into the top 500, I used a template w/m and changed the monk skills with one elite monk I hade unlocked.
As for the similar rank, the actually GvG system is set up so that you can only fight people of a similar rank.

Should the need arise to play a different class combo occurs, then your theory flies out the window. Also, its the last 15% that is the most time consuming and many of which are also the more powerful skills.

Automatch, issue rated and unrated challenges is what i see when i being the guild battle process. Automatch should find fights of similar rank, but the others are more specific and none of them can occur if the teams are not activly waiting or attempting to gvg themselves.

Considering how few matches it took for you to invoke that kind of change within the ladder is very indicative that the gvg feature is being largely unused. If every guild was activly attempting to gvg battle regularly, such changes in the midsection to the upper eschelon would not be as apperant. This would represent a large body of inactive or dead guilds for the ladder, not neccacarially a preference towards one form of entertainment or another.

Haha, sorry I upset you so much. But though in less exaggerated form. It may not be 90%, but this game is still crap for PvE. Try out just 1 or 2 other RPG games that have high ratings for thier PvE gameplay and you'll find out that I'm correct VERY quickly.

I didn't read this whole thread but I read alot of it and what i'll say is that GW is simply not the game most of you need to be playing. You are playing GW because it has no monthly fee and you are expecting of it things that you normally have to pay for. GW is not a single player game that you can play through online (like the Diablo Series or Baldur's Gate) and it's not a huge persistant world game in which you carefully build the perfect character. GW is free to play because it is created in the spirit of Counter-Strike, Tribes, and Quake III. This is a pickup-and-play run-and-gun style game in which you are along for the ride as the world changes around you and not the other way around.

The reason WoW and EQ2 cost money to play is because people like you have expectations like you do. Do i agree with some of what you say? Sure. Do i play the game for what it is? Yes. At this point though I feel lucky that they even continue to tweak the game on the level that they do and I'll keep playing it until it loses my interest.

Critique the game all you want, it' your right since you bought it, but now that you've bought it it's just like Counter-Strike... they aren't gonna change it and when you've played it out and it's not fun anymore you can stop playing.

I don't grind, i play all missions and quests, and when I got to Droknar's on the regular schedule I had all the materials for my armor and plenty of cash to buy it with. I have never attempted to farm and I don't horde rare items I'll never use. I help other players do quests and I help keep them away from scammers. In general I just play the game and I enjoy it. To each his own I suppose.

Deleted posts that were WAY off topic and ones that were only here to snipe at someone else.

I agree with Soul Shaker: Most of these posts are on topic and make this thread a must-read for ANet. Bogging it down with single word responses and 1,000 word responses to -those- makes it too easy to ignore. Keep to topic but if you DO want to argue with someone, please take it to PMs.

Thanks.

Don't be childish. *swats BlackAce with a rolled up newspaper* I never said yours wasn't but I tend not to read as many of the PvP threads as I'm not terribly knowledgeable about them. I read enough to weed out the flames and off topic posts, that's it. And, given the rather...sarcastic nature of your "fix PvE" thread I just was in over my head. But, by all means: If my opinion of must reads is SO critical, let me know and I'll be sure to post something to that effect at the end of that thread.

Sheesh.

Back to topic, PLEASE.

I really like this game, i really do, but if there was a new rpg no monthly fee game that was more into pve than pvp and you could actually hope to get stuff at max level, more than likely I would play that other than gw, I do feel that there isnt much to do after lvl 20 other than ascension armor.

Heck, nothing even truly remarkable happens when you ascend, first time I did, I was thinking like "oh man, maybe i'll have like a glow or something or get an awesome weapon or armor"... and nothing happened, just said you ascended and got some exp. =\ there needs to be more rewards for high level and especially ascending rather than just stupid exp, which most people are near or at lvl 20 by the time they do, heck i was 19 when i was ascended.

Just outta curiosity, why did my post get deleted?

I agree with those people who claim that GW is a game about PvP. It may have been different during the betas, where the difficulty of the PvE part actually WAS the gameplay. Now they removed the difficulty, leaving only the tedium. I failed at thunderhead at least 5 times, and both times i finished it, it took 90mins and a medicore group. The biggest secret to success: talk to the king and go afk. If the king cant die, the first part can be done while distracted. My second team had 7 rangers with traps, that should tell you something... With the playerskill based gameplay gone, PvE has not much to offer. Dungeon Siege II >>> GW PvE atm. Yes, DS II is mindless hack and slash, but so is GW right now - but despite the poor graphics, the DS II world (the demo at least) feels more alive then GW ever did. Now try a "real" rpg like Gothic.

The problem is: If GW PvP is so much better then the medicore PvE part (and i never saw the "real" PvE part, only the dumbed down release version), why force 500h of PvE farming grind on the community?

See, i came over here to try the "different / unique" pve and maybe pvp. Instead i got a MMORPG wannabe with the pvp part sealed away behind mountains of grind.

i love it when people complain about nearly all aspects of a game but still post a lot on forums dedicated to the game

not just above post

everywhere on these forums people complain and bitch and moan about each and every little thing

There are actually alot of valid points in this topic, and there are actually positive solutions offered also, admittedly it is a long topic and is easy to miss them.
The bigger the topic the easier it is to skip posts and miss the point

Overall good thread, sprinkled with a wide variety of opinions. Guess I'll join in.

1) PvE - I got my money's worth out of this game. Where do I spend my post-completion time in PvE these days? Helping other people with missions and quests, many of them even donating one single XP to my cache. Why? Because it's fun helping people out (for free, mind you). I can distinctly recall how I would have felt as a level 12 having one or two level 20's in my party.

If it takes you 100-200 hours to complete the entire PvE portion of the game, you have no legitimate gripe. You *have* gotten your full $50 out of the game.

2) PvP - this is out of whack, for sure. Anyone who's played 10 hours of PvP knows that there are certain builds that are *clearly* superior (W/M, M/W, certain air elementalist builds, etc). Fringe characters, like W/N, can play PvP, but your success is limited. There are reasons you see the same 10-20 teams winning favor; it's because they have people who have mastered the elite builds. Bet you don't see more than one or two fringe character builds among all the top 20 teams.

There are also some obvious flaws with some skills being way too powerful. They've all been mentioned before, so I'll pass on typing it all out again. I can only hope that this gets corrected along with some (yes, I'll say it) nerfing of certain character combinations.

Oh, and don't get me started on all the Spirits.... this is a burlesqued example, but you guys know what I'm talking about...

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...7&postcount=40

3) Faction - nice idea, poorly implemented. Why, when I'm using my PvE character with a tweaked skill bar in PvP, can't I redeem faction for, say, a Superior Rune of Absorption for THAT character? No, you can't - faction can only be used for NEW PvP-only characters. That's just absurd. I don't want to create a new character just to take advantage of my faction-based goodness. I want to play with him who got me there...

Also, it's much easier to get faction-based goodness than earn it through PvE, in many cases. Take for example that Rune of Superior Absorption. 2,000 faction and it's yours. Now, try to farm 80 plat to buy one. I guarantee you it'll take longer to farm the gold than to get the faction points. Way out of balance here, folks.

4) Economy - it's broken, Anet has basically capitulated on that one, and is in the process of fixing it through better and more frequent drops. I'll anticipate that we will see drops fix the supply and demand issues we're seeing at the Merchants (no black dye available, ridiculous prices for many items due to people hoarding popular items, etc.) I'm not worried about this, as it's a short-term problem.

I have a little over 300 hours into this game. It paid for itself a long time ago. That being said, there are two new areas forthcoming for me to explore, and I've spent limited time in FoW, and no time in UW. I still have a bonus mission or two to complete. There's still plenty of stuff out there for me to do. No game is perfect, and GW is no exception. However, in my long history of gaming that dates back to the first year of the Commodore 64, I have never seen a game developer deliver like the GW team has done. Frequent (painless) updates to the game, including massive content updates, new ideas (faction), fighting the good fight against botting/cheating, etc., attention paid to the community, and a real attention to detail when it comes to gameplay changes. No, they don't get it all right. I can't imagine they ever will. But they get a lot right, and generally move the game in a positive direction.

It's been a fun ride so far. I look forward to the future in Guild Wars.

Denny,

Couldnt have put it better myself

Po

Even though I do believe GW is an amazing bargain of a game, I can tell you right now that if "we've given you so and so many hours of gameplay, so shut up and be happy" was A.Net's official policy, they would lose a whole lot of customers, including myself. Personally I measure the monetary worth of a game in how much fun I'm having while playing it, not how long it takes me to complete it.

Plus, the ideas and suggestions (and yes, also the "gripes") presented in this thread pertain not only to the current basic GW package, but also to any expansions that might come in the future. If A.Net wants people to invest in those as well, they will take the problems that those people have with the game seriously, moneys worth or no. I for one don't want the same issues we face now to stick around for the upcoming expansion, and the next one, and the next one after that.

Although to their defense, A.Net is indeed making a valiant effort to maintain the game and to keep in touch with the community. This, more than anything, is where I feel I've definitely gotten my moneys worth.


ManaCraft

dont get me wrong pve could be livened up a bit but to be honest its really not that big of a deal. pve is good atm pvp is good as well it seems fine ATM in a mounth or to of no updates etc etc it would get boring but arena have already sead updates of new areas etc etc are coming

ANet need to think hard about how games can achieve longevity without a constant stream of new content. If they want to be a success, it should be their #1 priority. They need to look at what makes games like CS, Diablo2, Soul Calibur 2, Nethack, etc, the sort of game that people play again and again, without getting bored for a long time.

It's a shame that there's a bunch of current content that's sub-standard and probably won't be worth fixing, and it's a shame that they've now saddled themselves with this story, (maybe the expansions can be set in a different time period, or a different continent?!). But the underlying technology is pretty good, and it would be an even greater shame if ANet folded and this grand experiment ends as a failure.

I've played cRPG's for about 20 years, so I think I know what I'm talking about when I say that you're talking complete bullshit.

There are cRPG's with better PvE than GW, for instance Planescape: Torment, KOTOR, and Gothic2, but there's many more with much WORSE PvE. Neverwinter Nights, Dungeonsiege, Everquest2, Pool of Radiance 2, Dungeon Lords, Baldurs Gate 1, and Lionheart to name but a few.

Also, while there are cRPGs with better PvE than GW, they're all (with the possible exception of WoW which I've not played because the graphics are simply too ugly for me) much shorter. Even Gothic2 and PS:T don't last more than perhaps 50 hours.

The fact of the matter is that the PvE in GW is quite good. That people eventually tire of a game which takes about 100+ hours to play through is hardly surprising, and definitely not proof that the PvE sucks.

The PvP of GW is completely uninteresting to me, as it reminds me of Magic the Gathering. If I want PvP I'll instead fire up an FPS.

So your opinion against ours. BG I < GW . Yes sure. Pool of Radiance formatted your HDD after an uninstall and Dungeon lords... come on, am i supposed to take this list serious? well to be honest, i can fire up an shareware site and find 100 games that are worse then guild wars.
Whats worse is that i can name at least 4 games that have been written by just one guy, and they offer better pve then GW... (Avernum, Geneforge series)

At this point one cant continue to argue. You have the right to consider GW to be a great game.

Everyone can write a game that takes you 100h to complete. What matters is the fun/tedium ratio.

[We/] I have listed many points here and in the thread on TGH to explain why GW Release is a poor game at best (and lots of cool ways to fix it!). It does not support skillbased gameplay (lack of difficulty - "hard" missions are frustrating, not hard.), and does not offer enough content for mindless hack and slash. Take what you want, but before the new areas are online, GW is BELOW average on my list. And the EXTREMELY FUN pvp (according to every person on this board who seems to have a grip on game mechanics) is still buried beneath mountains of grind. You can defend it all you want. You can fight UAS all you want. But at the end of the day, every top player will have all skills unlocked. EVERYTHING. The only difference to UAS: pushing a button vs "playing the game" for 600h. No way to argue that.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You're done.


20 years of CRPG my GORED ENGINE.

How can you compare plot-driven single player RPG's like BG, BGII, or KOTOR with CORPG's like Guild Wars anyhoo? That's like comparing Bush with Cheney to see who can square dance better. Use more appropriate analogies if you want your arguments to hold weight.

Speaking of fun/tedium ratio, that's exactly why BG1 is a worse game than GW. Random respawning mobs scaled to your level so it'd take half an hour to kill them Every. Single. Fricking. Step. And the joy when they broke and ran from you so you'd get to spend five minutes hunting them around the field until they got stuck in a bush so you could kill them and finally end the encounter.
BG2 was a massive step up compared to the mindless hack&slash of BG1.

Also, I don't believe a single game I mentioned was shareware. In fact, they're the biggest titles of the last few years.

It's nice we now agree that GW PvE is not at all "crap". You feel it's below average, I feel it's above average, and we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

As for UAE, I've all along argued FOR that. I want the PvE completely separated from the PvP, because the PvP'ers are disruptive in PvE. Much of what problems there are in PvE stems from PvP players playing PvE, hating it, and making sure everyone shares their pain. It's got a lot better after Anet enabled unlocking through PvP, though.

However, what I want is irrelevant, what matters is what Anet wants, and Anet do not want to separate PvP from PvE.