Here:Foundations of Balance and Diversity

With the claim that "The key to winning the HoH is to make a build that can counter the most popular builds, and still win outright on your own. " You, to increase your chances of winning, would want more people running the cookie cutter builds, which you have an advantage over.

The key to winning the hall is to be the challenger and pray you have a decent team helping you dislodge the current champ, and to steal the win away from them.

Holding the hall is another matter entirely.

I think your second point (dynamic tactics) is a far better indicator of a good team. If every team is running copies and variants of the same build the more skilled team should win more, on average. If you're confident in the skill of your team, don't worry about copycat builds. That is of course, assuming it's a balanced environment where the defending team doesn't always have a huge advantage- part of what made iQ's healing ball/hall-holding build so devastating was that we were ridiculously hard to dislodge, and once we capped we never had to let go. Putting the same build in a situation where we would have to take the hall away from a similarly-built team would have been a nightmare.

Despite its other flaws, GW has done a good job keeping the equipment disparity down to a bare minimum. Let's give praise where praise is due. Hooray PVP equipment.

It's all the same thing, quite frankly. If you're not original enough to come up with your own build, then you're probably not good enough to play the current FOTW you're stealing from another team.

Shrug.

If you're not original enough to come up with your own build, its probably because there's a dominant archetype which no one in the entire community has thought up of a decent counter for. People don't lament 2 or 3 monk teams in tombs as being unoriginal, for example.

running spirits/wards/healing spring/mass interuption/retarded defence isn't going to let you kill a team, but its fairly impossible to stop 1v1. You mostly rely on having a decent supporting team to dislodge the defensive holders, regardless of how awesome your build is.

A good build will get you to the HoH, but you need 2 good builds to win it.

Parallel development does exist in other endeavors, so I find it very unlikely that it would not also come up within games as well. The only thing that could be proven is if someone goes out of their way to be different, which is a similar mentality that drives what is referred to as a counter culture within society. Within guildwars there is an absence of diversity due to the objectives in the game and the skills present. This is driven by the game played aside the game that is referred to meta-game(ing). There is a peak that can be found within any game while exercising meta-gaming habits. The only variation found is in the style that is applied and in a point and click adventure, there is not a lot of style to be had as the majority of the outcomes are automated based off of the character attributes.

Can't see why this topic has died. =\

I've finally actually sat down and read most of the articles. (Not sure which ones I was supposed to read off of Sirlin's site, but I chose 2.)

This snippet brings to mind the arguments over which skills (Or entire professions as a primary choices >_>)in Guild Wars are bad, and how newer players are drawn to defend ones that look good to them, despite well-written rationale or even mathematic proof. It's simply above their point in the learning curve.
In the beginning, I used to praise the balance of the game, and merely look at things and defend them as being viable (Rust comes to mind foremost a couple months back.). However, at this point, I realize that viable is not the same thing as balanced, and can actively identify skills as 'bad', and provide the rationale myself.

Anyway, loved the articles and I'm providing a bump intentionally, because balance and diversity issues are constantly being debated with the metagame shifting.

Star City Games, a Magic: The Gathering website has a special section linking to or hosting some especially good articles. Could we either sticky the links posted in this thread or perhaps put it on the main page? I think these articles would would be worth the sticky.

Has Sorrow's Furnace changed the validity of any points made here?

Check the skills. So far maybe not...but I believe Arena net is working on this problem slowly and surely. As I know they work on many features as the observer mode and some trade system and maybe some improvements. Balancing needs time as you all know - fast changes are often bad. Remember when people cryed out loud in the reducing of healing seed's duration? Well the spell is still as usefull now if the player uses it right, not just spamming it. Same with spirit spam - the players that used spirits for they effect can still do it without penalty, except for the noobish spammers that used 1,2,3,4, oath and 1,2,3....


The game evolves as every other (good) game. Builds will change, players will find good use even for the bad skills (at first place). There are many skills that are good for offhand class (secondary) even elites. For exampe cripling shot - not worth the slot if you are a ranger with a bow - pin down works the same and it is even more duration, but for offhand W/R for example - he can bring a bow with 0 marksmanship and shot crippling from a distance, then move to the target and beat the ... out of it (or try)...Anyway crippling shot still does not win my vote.
The main idea is taken from the StarCraft example - remember when Vultures were claimed as the stupides unit in the game and after an year or so the vulture tactic came - anti worker/zealot. Same here...well for most of the skills.
Things are getting better and better with the updates and I preffer for slow but good changes than fast and uncoordinated which will bring more problems.

There will always be skills that are bad in 75% of the situations (as the dude said) but in the rest 25% - they will kick ass. Malestorm kick's the healing ball's butt. Deflect arrows makes you invulnerable to arrows (and ranger builds) and so on. Bad thing is that many players dont have slot for such skills as they relly on mass used versite skills...but time will show, anet will change stuff and hopefully the game will become better and better ( so far the best online pvp game I've played)

Blackace is smart - listen to his words of wisdom :P Energy denies is evil indeed. Enchant removal is pretty hard to use, althou some spells got after effect like Shatter enchantment and so on. I will keep an eye on this topic since it is one of the little non flaming, midnlessly flooded with "I HATE AREA NET YOU SUCK YOU RUINDED THE GAME" posts. Constructive criticisum powered with facts, arguments and theories will help even the designers.

Can you explain me this a bit Scaphism?
Lately I've been worried on just this specific area. The release of strictly better items in the form of green weapons compared to the weapons available for pvp chars makes me wonder.
Compare for instance Rago's firewand with a normal pvp wand. This sounds like an obvious advantage. How do you see this? Is this advantage so small it isn't worth mentioning according to you?

PvP and collector wands only having one modifier has been a problem for some time - rare wands have always been able to have two mods, making them potentially strictly better than the PvP equivilents. While that's a potential imbalance, it hasn't really bugged me because staves are pretty much universally better than wand + focus, and the best wand in the game is the henge sword with an enchanting part.

PvE uber-loot has always existed, though, from low req uber-shields to unique collector items (like the Energy Storage focus), to the henge sword which everyone should have. Two mod wands are on that list, but pretty far down, to be honest - I find the missing PvP-style collector loot (Monk staves, strength shields, and the like) to be a bigger issue, personally.

Peace,
-CxE

It would be easily solved if they expanded the mod and unlock system to include the "other" rare mod and item combinations.

This probably should not be an unlock, atmost one unlock.
Example: For 1000 Faction you can unlock second slot on wands.

......and which no one can get anymore, since they took it out of Henge.
go ANet. :/

anyway, thank you for the clarification.

At lower level arena's those can be dealt with easily I'd say. I played in Yaks Bend last night just for fun and we had one opponent try this. Hamstring from the warrior, Hunters Arrow from me and watch him bleed and die, didnt take more then 2 minutes

This topic is still good and shines like a jewel on this forum. Dont let it die!

Blackace,

Very interesting thread! I am at work right now and don't have time to read through every single post but looks like the post was made BEFORE they change Nature's Renewal.

Anyway, what's your view on Ranger's Beast Mastery? I didn't see you mentioning it in the first few posts and the last few ones as well. I've been a BM fan since I bought the game, 6 months ago (Yes, I am a TRUE "Johnny" and I love using different strategies to win the game. Using cookie-cutter build really PAINS me. I would throw the game out before using cookie-cutter builds)

Recently, they've changed Vamp Touch recharge to 2s. Do you think they do this for Beast Mastery, mainly because of Ferocious Strike? I've been running this Vamp Touch + Pet build and I am amazed by how GOOD I am. I can counter so many things that I could not. Warriors always gave me troubles when I play as a pure beast master since my pet does TERRIBLE damage on warriors and with Charm, Comfort Animal, Rez Sig occupied, I can hardly find any skill slots for self-healing and defense.


Just curious to hear what's your view on Beast Mastery. My view is that Pets are good for blocking things but since they suffer from "controls", beast masters can't direct the pets the way they direct their "arrows/swords". Pet can get stuck and pet doesn't change target as fast.

My other issues with BM is that most pet skills are REALLY inferior to other Ranger skills. First of all, you need to equip two skills to even use pet skills (Charm/Comfort). Then the effect of those pet skills usually rely on a "condition" like Scavenger Strike, Melandru's Assault, Miaming Strike, Besatial Pounce, and even Brutual Strike. The only two skills that somewhat make Beast Mastery viable in PvP are: Disrupting Lunge and Ferocious Strike. Disrupting Lunge is sooooooooooooo good. That's the only skill that almost every Beast Master uses in PvP (and even PvE). Predator's Pounce is a great PvE skill that truly outshines other pet skills besides Disrupting and Ferocious.


My other question is does Charm REALLY balance Beast Mastery? All BM must equip Charm. I have no problem with it but Charm has no ability to heal/rez the pet so we are forced to take Comfort Animal. That's two skill slots dedicated to a Skill Line, excluding all the other pet skills that make sure the pet can stay "competitive" (Call of Haste and Call of Protection). I mean Beast Masters already suffer from skill disable and VERY limited skill slots. I really don't know if BM is as balanced as A.Net thinks it is.

Is this soooooooooooo true!

There are just not enough skills to counter enchantments. In Team Arena, a group with one healer and one protection monk can own 80% of the time because you need a VERY specific build to counter healing/protection monks. While those builds may succeed in countering monks, they may be bad against other "average" builds.

That's why most people think when they face a team with 2 monks, they are doomed because in reality, it is the truth if you don't have the proper skills.

I've tried most of the enchantment stripping skills and I am just disappointed. You can NEVER strip enough to counter their enchantments. And those poor Warriors/Rangers can hit the monk for 10mins without taking health of the monk's health, and the moment they decide to attack another target, the monk(s) can heal that target all day long.

It is indeed very hard to balance. For average players, enchantments are really really too good.

I also want to add that Enchantments are always GOOD when being used; whereas Strip Enchantments are very situational. The problem is that in PvP, people can cast enchantments before the match starts, so by the time you face your opponents, you strip the enchantment but their enchantments have already been recharged! Then you need to wait for like 20-30s to cast strip enchantments again... then their skills are recharged. The cycle goes on and it's very difficult to beat this cycle. So most of the time, you only reserve strip enchantments for "more" important enchantments like Mark of Protection, Healing Hands, Guardian., etc. (for warriors and bow rangers).

Woa to much information for me to read all post here

From what i read has been helpful thanks, probably the best thread i have read yet!!!

It's about time we had such an intelligent thread going here. Bravo!

Back to what are the resources in GW:

1) Energy
2) Signets
3) Corpses
4) Adrenaline

Now, that would suggest that if you brought a team to HoH, all you'd have to do is massive energy denial, mess with signets, consume corpses and perhaps cast Shadow of Fear or Faintheartedness on the Warriors, and you'd succeed, right? Well, anyone who's played for any length of time knows that is a false statement. Fast acting, high-powered groups like coordinated Ranger spikers, some skilled Iway (did I say skilled and Iway in the same sentence?) groups, etc. can be built to successfully deal with a group that's into messing with resources.

The thing about GW is, there is no perfect build, and there's ALWAYS a 'balance problem.' For example, the Iway groups are Fame Factories, because most people have no idea how to deal with them. Same with Minion Factory. Same with Ranger spikers. Well played, these are very specific builds with a HUGE advantage in one or two areas, which the better groups who play them can exploit and use to cover up their inherent weaknesses. That's right, these builds have weaknesses too, just as energy-drain groups can be brought to their knees.

To me, it's a matter of people playing a solid build - whatever that may be - and doing it in a coordinated, intelligent fashion. Being from a guild that utilizes a lot of balanced builds, I can tell you that we've often brought down the fame factories simply because we adjust our tactics accordingly. To be successful in GW, you MUST adjust your tactics according to your opponent at that time. If there's enough flexibility in your individual and team builds, you can overcome anything except a better coordinated, more experienced team, and it's not necessarily dependent on build. It usually has more to do with how you play it.

In the end, that's what creates balance - the ability to counter and succeed. Fortunately for us, GW has that ability built-in, and all we need to do is take advantage of it.

Sirlin’s site

Ok, while some of the articles point out the importance of dictating the behavior of your opponent and out thinking them, the site is not about games like GW.

This is a website that is about games like Street Fighter, Starcraft, Marvel vs Capcom 2, etc..

Just look at what they say about this topic:

“Multiplayer vs. Single Player
Balancing a competitive multiplayer game is orders of magnitude harder than balancing a single player game. When we try to balance a single player game, we are basically striving to match the “skill” of the computer to the skill of the player. There are many techniques for doing this, and there is a large margin of acceptable error. For example, consider what happens if Joe Hardcore figures out a super sneaky way of beating almost every enemy in a single player game for free. Further suppose that this method is very obscure and discovered by less than 1% of all players. Factoring in strategy guides and the internet, sure, others will figure out this method, but the overall impact will be small. Joe Hardcore feels full of himself, the computer doesn’t mind being beaten, and most players will never know about this method at all. It’s bad, but it’s not that bad.”
No, that doesn’t happen like that. People go online and post the cheats, even if it is a single player game. It’s not an issue of a game being a multiplayer or single player, it’s the popularity of a game.

I question this site’s relevance to GW aside from the basic principles cited above because it focuses on games that are 1x1, not team based.

Just a small question about why you consider signets a resource. The others make sense. You need energy to cast skills, adrenaline is needed for certain warrior skills and corpses for certain Necromancer skills. Why do you consider signets a resource?

Omitting the Resurrection Signet since everyone can use it, each profession has the following signets:
Elementalist - 0
Mesmer - 5 Signet of Midnight {Elite}, Signet of Humility, Leech Signet, Keystone Signet {Elite}, Signet of Weariness
Monk - 5 Blessed Signet, Signet of Devotion, Purge Signet, Bane Signet, Signet of Judgement {Elite}
Ranger - 1 Antidote Signet
Necromancer - 3 Barbed Signet, Signet of Agony, Plague Signet {Elite}
Warrior - 2 Doylak Signet, Healing Signet
My apologies if I missed any Signets.

I don't see how these signets are different from any other type of skill. Skills themselves could be considered a resource since a more varied selection of skills can lead to "better" builds or at least more flexibility when creating individual or teams builds. I believe this is the idea behind the Unlock All Skills argument. I think the counter argument to UAS is that the majority of players do not have the interest or the ability to use all the skills. I know I don’t. I’ve tried several times to learn to use Kinetic Armor (Elementalist skill, fairly commonly used) and haven’t so far. The use of this skill just doesn’t fit with my play style and learning to play a different style is not the easiest thing in the world to do. I have great respect for those that can. I guess I’m only a wannabee “Johnny”.