Numbers for the Cleave / Eviscerate Debate

Hmmm, this might not be the time or place, but I wonder if swords, or low cost axe adren skills, have their place in builds that need more skill slots for other things?

Just to pull an example off the top of my head, would Cleave then be the skill to use if that was the only Adren skill you're carrying? As for what else you'd be carrying, I dunno... maybe a Mo/W packing multiple enchantments, or a E/W with armor spells+pbaoe spells or something.

As a side note, most people say that axes are superior in damage due to the skills that you can use for it. Does that mean swords are better if you are mostly using it for normal attacks, and are carrying a lot of other types of skills? For warrior secondaries, for example.

That is indeed surprising. Does that mean Strenght is not working as advertised? or as I understand it (ie, on attack skills only, meaning that with high strenght it's better to have lot of skill attacks over a few powerfull attacks) ?
Or maybe % penetration of armour is overrated... Without hard number to suport it, I'd have thought the difference would have been wider. Thanks for having looked at that, given the range of difference (10dmg/ min), it's probably not worth spending a lot of times searching for the break point.


Given cyclone axe recharge time (... well it would be too good otherwise), I *think* (need to check it) that there is time for 3 attacks in between 2 cyclones.

You are right that I can only Cleave once in between 2 cyclones and that makes Cleave happen only 1 per 4 attacks. Cyclone does not change cleave dps alone, but it does change cleave dps when combined with other adrenaline skills, mainly penetrating blow. If there were another non eliteaxe attack in 4/5 adrenaline cost ranges, it would be possible to get all attacks with attack skills and so get strenght bonus on all of them.

You mentionned the Cleave sequence beats the Eviscerate sequence with higher Strenght... Is that a hit/hit/hit/cleave sequence? or a mixed sequence with other adrenaline skills too? (which would make strenght probably more valuable then).

As far as cyclone axe helping Eviscerate immensly: no doubt, cyclone axe helps any adrenalin skills immensely!

What I am pointing at is: when using cyclone axe as a mean to gather adrenaline, I try to empty all adrenaline pools in between two cyclones... Because cyclone refill them up really well.

Given the average mob size, it's difficult to do that with 7/8 adrenaline cost skills. With that philosophy, and knowing that I don't gain adrenaline in between two cyclones (because I use adrenaline skills at every attack... or try to... so am locked in +1/-1=0 adrenaline gain), I have to wait for cyclone axe to recharge if I want to use eviscerate/executioner.
The alternative would be to cyclone, then hit/hit/hit/eviscerate/executioner/ cyclone (by then it would have recharged) and drop all the small adrenaline skills that I can use today with 1 cyclone axe, because they would stand in the way of adrenaline gain before eviscerate/executioner.


I am not a Cleave fanatic, hey I use both skills

Given the low influence of Strenght on Cleave sequence, I think I will review my builds and probably use Eviscerate more, which also means dropping low adre cost spammable that feel free in between two cyclones (stuff like penetrating blow but also skills like Watch yourself).


Yes, you're right on that. I know I go evi/exe for Thirsty desert because of the monk/ priest combination, or because of some specific mursaat boss.
Also there are a few cases where one does not want to give conditions to opposition in PvE... It looks like every necro past the desert got Plague Touch/ Signet built in, so deep wound is kind of self inflicting.
But that would be a poor argument to use against eviscerate like saying Enchant are bad because of shatter enchant

Louis,

If no one knows this by now, im just stating fyi, Strength doesnt add armor penetration to normal hits, only gives the armor penetration to skills that are on the strength attribute line. So when you look over strength skills and see that they dont do as much damage as you're other -leet- sword or hammer or axe skills, just remember the strength skills get armor penetration. Which can do alot to casters and also do more damage on warriors than normal weapon skills.

When I was analysing pO build I tried to use Irresistible blow with hammer 16 and strength 13, and hammer 16 / strength 10. The first one deals 122 when critical, the second 118.

So... it seems Strength bonus applies to whatever attack skill you use, not only those who are in the Strength attribute line.

Yah, I don't agree with that. With more adrenal skills, and adrenal buffs, you have fewer normal attacks, which is what you'd be shooting for. More attacks, each with their own pool being recharged while using the other adrenal skills. I'm not sure the math illustrates how you'd actually use the skills either. Cleave would really have the lowest priority in the chain, but it would be recharged to avoid less normal hits. Skill slot saving's fine, but I think that build would be a 16/15 build with not much coming from the secondary.

Pretty obvious cleave is worse in most situations though, maybe someone will see this and realize it needs a buff. I think it also shows that strength is underpowered. If it was adequately powerful, the strength bonus would be enough to make the quicker recharging adrenal attacks more powerful (in high str situations) even if the bonus damage from the skill itself wasn't that great.

That's exactly how it works - more Strength works better with more attack skills. Thing is, the effect really isn't all that significant. A normal attack will deal 35.55 damage on average. With 10% armor penetration against a 60AL target, you're getting 3.89 damage from a typical attack skills - with 13% armor penetration from maxing out Strength with a minor, you're getting 5.29 more damage per attack skill. So you're looking at a difference of 1.4 damage per attack skill from pumping three levels of Strength. Not exactly the biggest jump.

This effect is diluted further when you're looking at attack chains of several skills, instead of just using your single elite - because the adrenal costs start to average out. For example, if you're just using Cleave you get one attack skill every four attacks for 25% of the Strength bonus - if you're just using Eviscerate you get one attack per seven for 14% of the Strength bonus. So by pumping Strength to 13, you widen the gap by .15 DPS, or around 11% of the difference between the 13 Strength damage bonus and the 10 Strength bonus.

But the 3 skill series are a lot closer. Take the Disrupting Chop series (because Penetrating Attack does not benefit from Strength). Using Cleave, Disrupting Chop, and Executioner's Strike as often as they come up has you using an attack skill 40.341% of the time - with Eviscerate, Executioner's, and Disrupting Chop, you're using an attack skill 33.754% of the time. So instead of an 11% gap in skill usage, you're looking at a 6.6% gap in skill usage, so the differences in Strength don't end up mattering much. Hence it really doesn't factor into these comparisons.

How much does Strength help overall? The average difference between a 13 Strength series and a 10 Strength series is .3 DPS, or 18 damage every minute.


Yeah, Cyclone Axe has a 4 second recharge which gives you exactly 3 attacks between each Cyclone Axes.


Sure, but I'm saying that the benefits from large adrenal boosts with Cyclone Axe are being largely wasted with Cleave and Penetrating. That is, you can find a perfect situation with the perfect number of enemies and Cleave will likely outperform Eviscerate over time in that circumstance, but outside of that resonance Cleave is going to be decidedly sub-optimal.

One such resonance is Cleave + Penetrating Blow at exactly 3 enemies. In this situation there is little to no overcharging of Penetrating Blow, things work out perfectly, and you're going to be dealing an average of 60.58 DPS amongst your targets. Eviscerate + Executioner's don't have any sort of inherent synergy at this level besides the faster adrenal charging, and actually have some bad resonance with spammed Cyclone Axe, so it follows up with only 59.53 DPS. Get over that resonance and Cleave turns to junk. At 4 enemies, the Cleave + Penetrating combo gets no additional benefit from Cleave, but the extra enemy cranks your DPS up to 70.41. Eviscerate + Executioner's, however, happily absorbs the additional adrenaline and now easily outperforms Cleave, with a DPS of 71.37.


Sure, but you'd need exactly four enemies for your resonance then. Below that and you're going to stutter - above that and you're going to get smoked by the higher adrenaline costs that continue to benefit.


Any sequence with Cleave substituted in for Eviscerate is going to benefit more, long term DPS wise, than then Eviscerate sequence from a higher strength. The more skills that are involved in the sequence, the smaller the difference is going to be.


Sure, but that really doesn't matter, because Eviscerate and Executioner's Strike are that much better than Cleave and Penetrating Blow that it comes out being comparable damage over time even if you're only using Eviscerate after 3 out of 5 Cyclone Axes.


I don't it's been mentioned in this thread yet - Penetrating Blow does not benefit from Strength at all. The armor penetration bonuses do not stack. So the higher your Strength, the worse Penetrating Blow is in your build.


Strength gives an armor penetration bonus to *all* attack skills. This includes both melee attacks in the weapon attribute lines, and if you're a Warrior/Ranger, all of your bow attacks.


Is it? You have the numbers staring you in the face. Cleave + Penetrating + Executioner's deals 49.35 damage per hit on average. Cleave + Penetrating + Executioner's + Dismember deals 48.48 damage per hit. At 13 Strength those numbers are 49.73 and 48.95, respectively. Adding Dismember to a Cleave chain makes you deal less damage.

Why? Because the Strength bonus from an additional adrenal attack is *less* than the damage you lose from having to wait longer for your attack skills to recharge. This isn't a matter of opinion, or a gut feeling, or anything like that - adding non-damage attack skills into your attack series makes you deal less damage, regardless of Strength. That's no opinion, that's cold, hard fact.


Well, you might not understand the math, but I assure you that I do, and it accurately models what you want it to be modeling.


It actually doesn't matter what order you use them in if you don't have any adrenal boosts, since the successful use of an adrenal skill is adrenaline neutral. If you have adrenaline boosts, you want to use the skills with the highest per-hit damage first for maximum damage - I went and calculated out all the different permutations with adrenaline boosts and only posted the most efficient ones. In general, the priority you want to put on attack skills for maximum over time DPS is Executioner's Strike, Eviscerate, Cleave, Penetrating Blow, Dismember, Disrupting Chop.


Well that's been known for a while. It's not really an insignificant effect - level 10 Strength is roughly a 10% damage boost on the more complex chains - but it certainly isn't something youre going to make a lot of sacrifices for.

Peace,
-CxE

Adding dismember to the chain does not lower your damage if you want a deep wound. Don't be ridiculous. Obviously the strength bonus isn't going to make up the damage if the deep wound isn't necessary considering dismember only adds the str damage and the deep wound. And as I've always stated, I would only considering using cleave with adrenal buffers.

I think you're flattering yourself. While it's certainly a better equation than 42/8 and 24/5, it's still not reflecting the exact way you'd be using these skills.

Reread that quote before you continue to pretend that your equation mirrors exact game conditions. You know it doesn't, and so do a few of the rest of us. Numbers are our friend, a tool to 'help' us. There isn't any new information here, but it is an upgrade from the previous IQ cleave/eviscerate equations.

Nice to see that you think so. Back it up. I've already posted the numbers above that show not only that adding Dismember to an attack chain lowers the damage, but I've also explained qualitively *why* the damage drops. You can continue to make ridiculous statements with no backing whatsoever, and I'll continue ripping them apart. It's what I do.


And as I've already pointed out in the initial thread, adrenal buffers don't alter the balance at all. Both Eviscerate and Cleave chains benefit from adrenal buffers. If anything, Eviscerate chains benefit *more* from adrenaline buffers, as they are better able to absorb the adrenaline boosts and avoid overcharging - though that only happens in extreme cases, as with Cyclone Axe. Using Cleave because you have adrenal buffers *doesn't make sense*.


I think you enjoy being contrary for the sake of being contrary.


No equation is going to reflect 'the exact way you'd be using these skills'. There are blocks, there's running, and realistically you're going to overcharge in order to spike better. That's why there's modeling. You look at the most important factors, boil them down to the basic issues, and re-evaluate it from there.

The conclusions that get drawn from these analysis, from spike damage, to damage over time, to utility and how they interact with other skills, to adrenaline buffs, to performance against runners, to utility against blocks and evades - you look at these things from a bunch of different angles to try and figure out what's good and what's not. The net result of *every* analysis is that Eviscerate blows Cleave away.

If you know of any analysis that shows that Cleave is a better skill that Eviscerate, I'd like to see it. But all I see so far are a bunch of gut reactions and people trying to turn what fundamentally is a numerical analysis into a 'personal preference'.


Yes, because unlike 'personal preferences' and gut reactions numbers get to the truth of the matter. There isn't any new information if you're someone who rejects mathematics, logic, and reasoning. For people who are interested in quantitative analysis and actually optimising their skill choices there's a wealth of information here. But if you'd rather stick with 'because I say so' non-arguments and wholeheartedly reject any arguments that conflict with your carefully crafted, non-sensical worldview, there's little I can do to change your mind.

After all, reason only works on the reasonable.

Peace,
-CxE

I don't know how anyone can really claim that Cleave is greater than Eviscerate...

In a game where you can bring only 8 skills to the fight -- I always like to bring:

- A movement speed buff
- An attack speed buff
- An interupt
- A stance breaker -- like Rigor Mortis or Wild Blow

That's half of my skill bar filled already...

Bringing a Skill that does +43 extra damage @ 16 and causes a Deep Wound, for around another 100~ points lost ( as long as the condition remains ) in one skill -- is surely better than bringing the low hitting Cleave + Dismember -- whilst losing a 2nd skill slot in the process.

Having to bring an extra attack skill ( just to Deep Wound, in this example ) -- means I'll have to drop something from my list above and I want to avoid doing that at all costs... ( what good is hitting for more damage -- if my attacks don't actually connect..?? )

I've appreciated most of the 'work' you've done and accepted most of it as most likely accurate, not bothering to retest anything that had your name associated with it. The point was, the deep wound damage wasn't going to lower the chain.. do we really need a number to show that? I think both know if the deep wound isn't coming from somewhere else, that dismember is worth having in there.. and if it isn't, then dismember lowers your damage. We agree here I think?

The difference is cleave doesn't replace dismember (although in your chains it does), so it would be an additional adrenaline skill, as opposed to an equal number of adrenal attacks like you've been comparing. Eviscerate does replace dismember, but cleave doesn't have to.

When people from your guild just try to scare off any other opinion by stating that it's been absolutely proven with some simple equation, I do feel the need to jump in there. The attitude was very poor and it's pretty consistent apparently. I'm glad you at least felt the need to bring more substantial support to this claim after reading that as well.

Well, half of your tests already show the dps ahead on cleave strings.

Most of the responses have the same basic conclusion. A lot of the time cleave will have higher dps (which initially started this, when saph said it didn't even do that) slightly, and eviscerate will obviously have a bigger spike. That dps gap isn't enough to make up for the spike of eviscerate. I think that's the general theme you get even from people half-way refuting the absolutes you guys have been throwing around.

Personally, I like battlerage over either of them. That has to do with actual game play and appreciating a skill that makes the rest of the my skill bar better. However, I'll fully admit that a frenzy/eviscerate spike is ultimately more powerful under optimal conditions.. so we don't need an equation on battlerage vs eviscerate.

If you take one adrenal skill, and seperate it into two adrenal skills, then necessarily your damage over time will be decreased, for two reasons: 1. your entire adrenal intake will be lower (in normal conditions, while using adrenal attack skills, you will lose 1 stroke and then gain 1 stroke on all other adrenal skills, resulting in a net gain of 0 adrenaline on all adrenal skills other than the used one; therefore, the more adrenal skills you use, the less often you will be able to use any given one.) 2. Obviously it takes more time to execute two attacks than one under identical circumstances. On the other hand, I might have misinterpreted what you mean, Rey, because I'm more or less guessing.
Take note that those DPS numbers do not take into account the effects of Deep Wound, or show the spiking effect.

If you got bot both Cleave and Eviscerate, I really see no reason to take Cleave + Dismember over Eviscerate.

It's certainly means losing 1 adrenaline using Dismember in all adrenaline skills, so it does slow all skills recharge unless you use some adrenaline saturation skills like cyclone axe or "to the limit" (not sure the recharge time really allows that last one). So each time you dismember, you're delaying the next cleave by one attack.

You also lose one skill slot. So it's not Cleave + dismember vs Evicerate... It's Cleave+Dismember vs Evicerate+whatever. Assume whatever is penetrating blow, and you won't need much number crushing to see that Evicerate + penetrating is going to win over Cleave + dismember.

I don't think you can make a good case for Cleave by pointing at Dismember.

A good case for cleave would either prove the cleave supposed better dps can outrun the deep wound effect or that the metagame makes deep wound not that desirable.
If everybody in my team will give deep wound, the additional beneift of deepwound is likely to be small.
If condition removal rules, then deep wound impact is also likely to be small.

As far as Cleave having better dps than evicerate, I think that would require a lot of number crunching with odd sequences of hit and adrenaline gathering and probably high Strenght. Although, the data presented here really ought to make me reconsider

Louis,

Yay, people arguing GW strategy with Ensign, that always makes for fun reading.

My last few responses in this thread were deleted, and probably rightfully so.. so I'll try not to take any more troll bait here.

I only said dps, so that's all I meant. I'm aware of what wasn't taken into account.

It was summed up in the other thread as well. The DPS can be better on cleave situationally ('depends on the build'), but it's only slightly higher in some situations. So the question is, is the small dps increase worth the lowered spiking potential? I think the consensus would be no, of course not.

I'm not some cleave lover trying to justify my past use of the skill. I do occassionally use it in pve to mess around with, but I've never thought highly of cleave or eviscerate in pvp. I think battlerage is a better choice personally. Eviscerate has a much better spiking potential and in optimal conditions is a much more powerful skill, but I find battlerage is more useful overall and use that in more axe builds. I just find that more in-game friendly considering the conditions you're up against.

My problem with these two threads was the attitude and insistence that these equations were absolute proof that we should all agree with. The equations in this thread are much more helpful than the last, and definitely worth looking at, but shouldn't have *too much* value put into them. Most of us aren't playing the game mashing buttons in order, while some other mindless thing sits there and takes it. If these equations were absolutely proof, this game wouldn't be worth playing.

I like to crunch numbers as much as the next guy, and blindly selecting skills is not an approach I like to take, but we all have to remember these numbers are a tool. Game conditions differ and we have to be objective in putting the proper amount of value into these equations. Numbers are our friend, not our lord.

I have a fairly limited experience with gw, and an even more limited experience with warriors (I come from Magic--where if the numbers can't absolutely determine the best pick its simply because they aren't good enough).
It seems fairly intuitive, however, that any disparities for the damage given by these equations and the actual damage can be considered in turn and further that it would be a simple matter to determine which skill is better in each case (note this is only in pvp).

1. Condition Removal (while they are sitting there). In this case, you have just exchanged several points of damage for 5 energy and some of their time. This is fairly evidently a good exchange, so eviscerate is easily favored.
2. Prot Spirit. Cleave allows you to get through more damage without being forced to inflict a deep wound. Cleave / Dismember, if you have the space, is obviously the best in this situation. Also, because Cleave and Eviscerate deal equal damage, Cleave becomes slightly superior. This is probably the one case in which Cleave is superior.
3. They run. If you have sprint, this scenario is the same as the earlier ones, except that the attacks will be made slower. I don't believe this is relevant to the comparison.
4. They get healed. Though this does not technically have a bearing on the equations presented, it does upset the equality in the sense that it favors the smaller window allowed by eviscerate.
5. Protective Barrier. Cleave becomes irrellevant and eviscerate just becomes a deep wound. It seems obvious that eviscerate is slightly better in this situation.
6. Their AL is increased. This favors a route using more penetrating attacks--that is to say eviscerate (if you are using penetrating--otherwise there is a fixed damage reduction and the 2 are equivalent).
7. Linear damage reduction. I haven't seen many people playing Shielding Hands, but its a possibility. Shielding Hands has the same effect on all chains (although it oh-so-slightly favors chains with more non-damage attacks for obvious reasons). Life Barrier effectively soaks up 50% of damage or ~25--whichever is less. Obviously then, in terms of a % reduction it favors the chain which does > ~50 more often. Eviscerate is obviously favored.
8. Aegis. Over a long period of time Aegis can be viewed as preventing 50% of damage. However, if it is up when you are attempting to finish a monk it can make getting a deep wound on slightly tricky. I suppose this could theoretically favor a warrior with dismember available, though the difference would be pretty minute, and I would say very nearly negligible (especially if you had multiple eviscerating warriors--in fact, in this case it is a strong motivation for more deep wounds). This one is roughly even.

So, in summary, Eviscerate is preferable if they heal, remove conditions, use life bond, or have their AL is increased. Protective Spirit is the one case in which cleave becomes slightly better.

I know that that last bit of analysis was probably not worth the minutes it took to write, but I am just attempting to highlight that if you consider fully enough there is no such thing as a true "intangible" aspect of ability comparison.

(As for Battle Rage, if its not too much effort would someone mind posting the damage for Battle Rage - Executioner's / Penetrating / Disrupting attack sequence?)

Assuming that Battle Rage never drops and never costs you any adrenaline loss, because I'm too lazy to put that into the model:

Executioner's + Penetrating + Disrupting + Battle Rage = 40.187 DPS
Eviscerate + Executioner's + Disrupting + Frenzy = 51.157 DPS

Peace,
-CxE

Unfortunatly whenever rage is refreshed it wipes out the adrenalin pool. In order to figure out the effect that has on adrenalin over time, you would have to calculate a arenalin pool that empties at the set time variable dictated by the strenght attribute. Long story short, the dps goes down even more, even though you are getting slightly more mileage out of strength armor penetration.

Actually, im getting rather depressed by this thread as more and more warrior skills are ending up to be worse than i thought they were. It also makes it seem like there is only one way to build a warrior (per weapon type) and there is alot of shared ground due to the nautre of adrenalin boosts and stances. This is of course excluding warriors masquerading as another profession (ie more non-warrior skills than warrior orientated skills).

I only read the first page, but another perk those cleave people are missing is the ability to use Axe Rake when their foe starts to run, and in PvP they WILL run. If they want to be able to rake them then that would require them to bring dismember, another skill slot wasted when they could have just brought eviscerate. It really helps taking down the monk when you can turn off sprint and put frenzy back on once he's been raked.

Ensign, what is your take on a group witih multiple warriors? It seems as though having more than one axe warrior isn't really necessary, especially since you should be spiking with deep wound, which will prevent earlier uses of eviscerate. Also, with the recent abuse of Victory is Mine in altar maps, and the subsequent dragging along of Balanced Stance, are swords an option these days?

I am rather suprised Battle Rage has a lower DPS than Eviscerate in a skill+2 adren + nonadrenattack skill combo. Due to not knowing the exact nature of how Adrenaline works (read your adren-post, then ate a bag of chips) I didn't do the calculations but can you post it here?