Numbers for the Cleave / Eviscerate Debate

Actually, 3 in the case of Evis + Exec + Frenzy. only 2 extra here and "You will Die" has NO use time.

So the only extra bit of time is from inflicting the Deep Wound. Also, if the monk manages to heal during your spike you will not be able to get a kill. In this combo, you MAY get the kill with a followup attack or two.

------------EDIT----------------------

On another note

I tried this today.

It kicks serious arse. You can cleave them TWICE in rapid succession after YWD goes off, which can KO even warriors with a bit of luck. The damage output is just stupid. I think I found my new love.

Can I point out that with the release of Nightfall the axe's spike ability has found a rediculously powerful and previously unmentioned combo with Decapitate, weapon swap for energy, Critical Chop?

I would also like to know what happens when you get hit...ive been thinking about some warrior builds that lower their armor on purpose, in order to get more adrenaline hits *they gain life to make up for it* just wondering if faster adrenaline helps...you might think that the difference doesnt matter cuz its still 4 to 8, but i'm wondering if there is some weird point differential

to the above poster:
you can also use leech signet for some stupid fun: decapitate->leech signet->to the limit->cyclone axe->decapitate

I know it's been a while but thanks to all the nerfs to Eviscerate [sob...] it looks like from the recent pages I'm reading, Cleave will win now in terms of overall usage.

We now had a skill that was a combined Dismember + Exe. Strike whittle down to a Cleave + Dismember (for 1 less combined adrenaline to boot)

Seems to me the numbers have hit the point where Cleave should win out using a more massive DPS vs. a single hit 'rare' spike every so often.

You can cleave 2x and dismember in almost the same amount of time it takes to hit with Evis. + Exe. Strike and with more instances of +'d damage [and more reapplication of the dreaded deep wound], that Cleave may be the new elite. Hell, Dismember + Cleave alone is hot and coupled with Dis. Chop as part of a combo: Cleave, Dismember, Disrupting Chop, you've got some crazy shut-out potential.

I'm still feeling [albeit now guilty of fanboyism] a little bit of lovin' for Eviscerate but with these new nerfs to it, I'm starting to wonder [I've got all 3 campaigns btw], if Cleave is now better than Evis with the addition of Dismember + other skills on the skill bar...

Is anyone willing to update the #'s to show this? [or do I need to actually sift through the entire thread to find someone who already did it?]

Any clues / links would help thanks!

I made one observation throughout this thread.
Ensign, your posts command belief of others, only through the means of a dismissive manner and providing numbers without any true basis. Where others challenged, you asked them to back up what they said. It must be said however that simply providing numbers (some of which were clearly wrong) on its own form a basis for well, nothing. Meaning that you failed to back up your findings.
Purely for the sake of substantiating what I say, I'll tell you now that your figure of 35.55 average damage per hit was well .... very wrong. Since you're quite the mathematician (or present yourself as such), you can go figure out why ^^

I know that's not true, because you gave no supporting evidence, and even if you did it doesn't matter, because numbers don't mean anything.

Both of you are wrong, the average damage per hit is...pineapple. Proving that I'm right is left as an exercise to the reader (since you're so smart).

This is a good pineapple. You should read it.

You seemed to have missed one critical observation...the post date of this thread.

No, running a [bold]PvP Warrior without 16 in his weapon attribute is akin to running an Air Spiker without 16 in Air Magic - the only 'sacrifice' is when you're not dealing max damage because you wanted to be cute. Real Warriors pump that weapon to 16 and never look back.[/bold]

Peace,
-CxE[/QUOTE]

would that be why every high level PvP Warrior uses 14 right?

the extra health (75 points of it) can an usually will save you from an early grave if you get spiked.

in high level PvP, mostly in GvG health is far more important then doing 5-10 more damage for a warrior.

-Lan

No, running a [bold]PvP Warrior without 16 in his weapon attribute is akin to running an Air Spiker without 16 in Air Magic - the only 'sacrifice' is when you're not dealing max damage because you wanted to be cute. Real Warriors pump that weapon to 16 and never look back.[/bold]

Peace,
-CxE[/QUOTE]

would that be why every high level PvP Warrior uses 14 right?

the extra health (75 points of it) can an usually will save you from an early grave if you get spiked.

in high level PvP, mostly in GvG health is far more important then doing 5-10 more damage for a warrior.

-Lan

The quote you are replying to is 23 months old. Since this is an online game, many of the rules have changed, including nearly all the axe skills in the first post.
The key skills in this discussion, Cleave, Dismember, and Eviscerate, are radically different now than they were then.

Also, the metagame does change over the course of two years.

Lol. Ensign is much more qualified on this subject than 99% of you, so I wouldn't respond with "14 Axe in High lvl pvp."

You ever ran a Frenzy Axe in a serious GvG? I'm not talking about your little rank 2567 guild, I mean a rank 300+ guild.

Run Axe at 14 and tell your teammates you did. "Brace Yourself!" for the criticism. You gotta man up on this and take faith in that monk.

Back on subject though, I think I looked at the two the other day and saw that currently, they deal the same damage. Except...that if Evis criticals, it's a spank. If cleave does, it's not nearly as good.

Running 14 in weapon mastery is perfectly acceptable after the nerf to armor swaps and in the context of generally increasing max health. Max health on characters has been increasing in general over time (monks used to run with around 500-550 health, now it's almost never under 600). Nowadays, plenty of high-level warriors run with 14 mastery, especially on hammers. 15-16 is okay, but most people will tell you to run 14.

EDIT: Maybe I should explain why you don't run sups on warriors anymore rather than just stating it. When you get to VoD, possibly with a little DP, and you march up to the flagstand with NPCs, you're going to get your warriors killed over and over if they don't have enough health. All the things about VoD just combine to do that. The damage increase + health loss, the NPC damage, the constant overextending to attempt to take out NPCs, just everything. Combine this with an overall power creep and stronger damage options than before, and the loss of armor swaps, and things get ugly. Basically, if you're overextending to kill archers or something, you're at such a risk of dieing very quickly to the most minimal of concentrated fire that you want every bit of health that you can get.

I run W/N, if I wanted health, I'd get Demonic Flesh

lol...

I haven't been in pvp in any form in a while but are warriors JUST NOW becoming the REAL focus fire in any scenario?

I'm sure they didn't get any AL nerfs or defensive nerfs and Warriors should still be the hardest class to kill in the game if they're wearing armor and their own buffs [ Sentry Inscription owns me ]

110 al vs. phys. 90 vs. elemental, good stuff

but with SOO much defensive layers up, I still am a firm believer of 16 weapon mastery

Can someone from a very highly ranked guild explain to me why they'd ever run anything less?

[note, I want to hear from killing warriors, not pansy flag runners or utility wars... I want to see a warrior out for blood tell me that lessening their weapon mastery actually helps them do their job...]

ever since the introduction of nightfall what do u guys preffer as the axe spike?
evis->executioner's->something else(furious, penetrating, etc) or
executioner's->decapitate->(weapon switch)wild blow(or power attack or whatever energy attack u choose)

Decapitate sucks. Decapitate blows. Decapitate swallows. There might be a PVE farming build that can make use of it, but for serious PVP it's worthless. I'd take Dismember over that skill any day if I was using any elite besides Eviscerate.

Agonizing Chop is an excellent follow-up to a deep wound application. Because of its fast activation time, it can easily score a kill before DW is removed, and it can interrupt your target's reactive skill. I'd still take Executioner's, but it would follow Agonizing in case they still had a sliver of health left over.

@Yukito: A warrior not using Frenzy might be the hardest class in the game to kill, but a warrior not using Frenzy isn't a huge threat anyway. Staying alive tends to help you do your job a whole lot better than being dead. With so many blocking/blinding/missing skills, your extra 2 points in weapon mastery won't get realized most of the time anyway. You're only assuming that most of your hits will land, and that simply doesn't happen for warriors in high-end team play. And armor does no good against degen.