What's up with Natures renewal
Mhydrian
Natures Renewal is one of a few ways to effectively counter these ridiculous stacked enchantment builds. You change NR you have to decrease the power of enchantments across the board as well.
asdar
First off there were ways to counter enchantments from single removal to chilblains.
Secondly at it's height enchantment builds didn't demolish any builds the way NR does. Just because a team has a full set of enchantments on doesn't make it so degen's don't work or even make it so spikers aren't dangerous. If they remove NR completely ranger will still be valued.
The biggest downfall to spike teams is NR, the biggest downfall to hex builds is NR, the biggest downfall to smite teams is NR. Even condition based teams are less effective because of NR. Enchantment teams didn't ruin anything and all builds were viable against them. They added an element of complexity to the game whereas NR removes from the complexity.
Secondly at it's height enchantment builds didn't demolish any builds the way NR does. Just because a team has a full set of enchantments on doesn't make it so degen's don't work or even make it so spikers aren't dangerous. If they remove NR completely ranger will still be valued.
The biggest downfall to spike teams is NR, the biggest downfall to hex builds is NR, the biggest downfall to smite teams is NR. Even condition based teams are less effective because of NR. Enchantment teams didn't ruin anything and all builds were viable against them. They added an element of complexity to the game whereas NR removes from the complexity.
David Lionmaster
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
ok. Nature Renewal is a spirit that strips enchantments and causes casters to need twice as much time to cast....essentially it removes enchantments from the field of battle. Most of the community views this as overpowered(because the majority of builds are designed around enchantments) and wants to Nerf said skill to hell until it is useless(like the ranger is supposed to be). And instead of spending their time online trying to come up with a valid counter build for the Spirit Spamming teams they sit on forums bitching about how it needs to be nerfed. Spirit Spammer teams continue to dominate the Hall because only a select few players have thought of counter builds for it....and they aren't sharing.
on a side note...yes I agree Nature Renewal *APPEARS* overpowered and I wouldn't give a damn if it was nerfed or not...other than the fact that the community seems to call for a nerf for any build they can't counter with any 8 random skills. |
Quebec Osti
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Originally Posted by Sambjo
First of all, W/R with tiger's fury is stupid. Way to waste 5 energy, ruin any chance you had of cunning spiking, and generally screwing your versatility while wasting a secondary class and attributes.
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Originally Posted by Sambjo
Ok, now that I have that out of the way: Only a stupid spirit spammer wouldn't bring a defensive stance. You got lucky, there's no competition in tombs anymore anyway.
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He use his stance?? knockdown... He stop using it?? knowdowned again..
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Originally Posted by Sambjo
I don't know why I bothered replying in the first place. You go on beleiving that a skill that counters 1/4 of the games other skills isn't overpowered. While you're at it, lets buff energy drain and signet of humility. Thumbs up to you, smart guy.
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Traylorre
We hold halls alot... btw Tiger's Fury Axe W/R is very effective (not "stupid")
Natures Renewal being overpowered? perhaps... but until there is more effective enchant-removal you -need- Natures Renewal
Spirit Spam.... I can't stop laughing --- you think the spirit killed your team? No... its the other skills and how they are applied that serve you... but oft times people have no clue what hit them and see lots of the same spirit -- and then hazard that "You lame spirit spammers" but just what is so lame about it?
OR
We sacrfice a precious slot for Primal Echoes to counter Sig of Judge builds ( a build with way too many signets in it)... and when we serve such a build in their face they whine that they're better players etc etc, but that we were lucky *roll eyes* for bring PE
Here's a hint -- don't make a build that can be defeated by 1 skill and half-competent teams
Natures Renewal being overpowered? perhaps... but until there is more effective enchant-removal you -need- Natures Renewal
Spirit Spam.... I can't stop laughing --- you think the spirit killed your team? No... its the other skills and how they are applied that serve you... but oft times people have no clue what hit them and see lots of the same spirit -- and then hazard that "You lame spirit spammers" but just what is so lame about it?
OR
We sacrfice a precious slot for Primal Echoes to counter Sig of Judge builds ( a build with way too many signets in it)... and when we serve such a build in their face they whine that they're better players etc etc, but that we were lucky *roll eyes* for bring PE
Here's a hint -- don't make a build that can be defeated by 1 skill and half-competent teams
Timoz
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Originally Posted by Mhydrian
Natures Renewal is one of a few ways to effectively counter these ridiculous stacked enchantment builds. You change NR you have to decrease the power of enchantments across the board as well.
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Enchantment stacked teams ftw...
asdar
I'd never call a team that wins repeatedly unskilled. I started this thread because I respected their win streak.
I do think that NR Is overpowered and that enchantment stacking didn't ruin the game but rather made it more complex.
I do think that NR Is overpowered and that enchantment stacking didn't ruin the game but rather made it more complex.
Quebec Osti
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Originally Posted by Mhydrian
Natures Renewal is one of a few ways to effectively counter these ridiculous stacked enchantment builds. You change NR you have to decrease the power of enchantments across the board as well.
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Third Quarter
If memory serves, NR (the guild) uses multiple Rangers running Incendiary Arrows as their elite.
Incendiary Arrows interrupts even if the arrow itself is evaded (via Aegis or whatever), so they can spam interrupts on a Ghostly forever, and the only thing you can do is kill the rangers.
Incendiary Arrows interrupts even if the arrow itself is evaded (via Aegis or whatever), so they can spam interrupts on a Ghostly forever, and the only thing you can do is kill the rangers.
Maagus
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Originally Posted by Traylorre
We hold halls alot... btw Tiger's Fury Axe W/R is very effective (not "stupid")
Natures Renewal being overpowered? perhaps... but until there is more effective enchant-removal you -need- Natures Renewal Spirit Spam.... I can't stop laughing --- you think the spirit killed your team? No... its the other skills and how they are applied that serve you... but oft times people have no clue what hit them and see lots of the same spirit -- and then hazard that "You lame spirit spammers" but just what is so lame about it? OR We sacrfice a precious slot for Primal Echoes to counter Sig of Judge builds ( a build with way too many signets in it)... and when we serve such a build in their face they whine that they're better players etc etc, but that we were lucky *roll eyes* for bring PE Here's a hint -- don't make a build that can be defeated by 1 skill and half-competent teams |
But I will not bow to the cookie cutter build with spirits. I admit they have beaten us but that is all. No learning, no thanks for good game. I don´t say that these players are not skilled (however pure putting spirits doesn´t require any gaming skill at all, only the additional things, so only by clicking on some spirits without thinking when it use, how it use, you manage to destroy all opponent´s enchantment/hexes, make his casters/monks and physical dmg useless) but when I meet some good players which I have seen before and see that they have become rangers with spirits just to follow the trend and just for making some fame, it makes me sad.
As I said, we have some counter against them and we manage to defeat some of them but even when we defeat them I still don´t enjoy the game.
Can you answer me one question ? Why is the ranger build so common and used by top guilds and teams if it is so easily countered ?
Today we have met some necro team using fertile season, zephyr, etc. I don´t mind that, they were just good and using unusual build. They haven´t used their spirits as the basic element of their team.
This is what annoys me. When anyone build the whole team on one thing and is hardly counterable. Pure smitting team can be defeated, pure spike team can be defeated, how is it that pure spirit team cannot ? The team should be more versatile so it can counter different strategies. The single-track teams should be easily countered.
Ensign
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Originally Posted by Mhydrian
Natures Renewal is one of a few ways to effectively counter these ridiculous stacked enchantment builds. You change NR you have to decrease the power of enchantments across the board as well.
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Peace,
-CxE
Mhydrian
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Originally Posted by David Lionmaster
dont forget hexes, it removes all hexes and makes them twice as long to cast too, which really sucks for my necro, which half of his skills are hexes.
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It also sucks when a necro decrease my attack speed by HALF at will....the same applied to you and thats not FAIR
cry me a river
salja Wachi
i have a feeling if there is a nerf at all (which i am not convinced there should be) then it should only be making NR an elite skill.
Hiawatha
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Originally Posted by Mhydrian
It also sucks when a necro decrease my attack speed by HALF at will....the same applied to you and thats not FAIR
cry me a river |
<3
Imp
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Originally Posted by Mhydrian
It also sucks when a necro decrease my attack speed by HALF at will....the same applied to you and thats not FAIR
cry me a river |
As for natrues, it IS OP, sure it was put into the game, but there will always be a broken skill either you like it or not. This skill is an ELITE with the gold trim or not, thats why it should be an elite. You Spirit Spammers are just crying because you won't be able to spam the hell out of this skill with oathshot.
And I don't want to make rangers useless, nor do I want NR to become useless, I think it just classifies as an elite because of what it does, not because of how it is used.
Quebec Osti
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Originally Posted by Imp
As for natrues, it IS OP, sure it was put into the game, but there will always be a broken skill either you like it or not. This skill is an ELITE with the gold trim or not, thats why it should be an elite. You Spirit Spammers are just crying because you won't be able to spam the hell out of this skill with oathshot.
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Ranger1 has oat shot[E]
Ranger2 has Arcane mimicry and nature's renewal[E]
Hiawatha
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Originally Posted by Quebec Osti
Making it elite wouldnt fix the problem imho...
Ranger1 has oat shot[E] Ranger2 has Arcane mimicry and nature's renewal[E] |
"Oat shot" sound skinda yummy! =)
KonohaFlash
sigh... ensign, would you mind sharing your healing ball teambuild? i have a feeling it's about to make a comeback 
Van the Warrior
sometimes with fertile you can spike someone with the X amount of health fertile gives simply by driving them out of fertiles circle while they are already taking damage...ive had people die instantly after being forced out by a ward against X or maelstrom or meteor or such...but fertile can be used as an offensive spell too if there was a way to remove your own spirits from a playing field...fertile would be a nice spike
Leddy
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Originally Posted by Asrial
What about....
2 N/R's 3 N/Mo's 2 Me/Mo's 1 55/105 Mo/X . This is just a quick.. "hey, that sounds cool" idea. It requires an advanced team of number crunchers. In the beginning, the 55/105 monk gets set up and runs off. The rest of the group swarm the group of spirits and clustering spammers. The 2 N/R's drop Edge of Extinction (the 2nd is to protect against disruption). The 3 N/Mo's start preparing Death Nova and start sacrificing health to allow for suicide. The moment the first N drops, the Me/Mo's with max fast casting toss Vengeance onto the dead N's. The N's then use Contemplation of Purity (took a while to find this) at which point they die again (Vengeance is an enchantment and CoP removes all enchantments from you.. so you die again). By now, you SHOULD have a pretty massive chain reaction as there's been 6 deaths pretty damn quick.. which is most likely going to be 10 deaths in quick succession (the N/R's and Me/Mo's). The 55/105 monk is just to insure that your team wins, in case they're caught in range of an Edge of Extinction. Their damage is nullified to 5. Thoughts? |
Also, i reckon THE nerf that would be fair is to make "Spirits" what they should be: a spirit. That would mean, that we can run through them, as if they didn't exist. That would stop the path blocking.
You can't say NR's not balanced because it affects their own team as well. The real problem with spirits is that they aren't spirits!
Ollj
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Originally Posted by Third Quarter
If memory serves, NR (the guild) uses multiple Rangers running Incendiary Arrows as their elite.
Incendiary Arrows interrupts even if the arrow itself is evaded (via Aegis or whatever), so they can spam interrupts on a Ghostly forever, and the only thing you can do is kill the rangers. |
http://guildwars.gameamp.com/guildwars/skill/8.php
the devil is in the detail that youre MISSing
Syzerian
I started thinking of a possible counter to spirit spamming a few days ago.
Basically what I have been think of is a group of E/Me's as the main counter. The Elementalists would slap on an anti-interupt stance, then use arcane mimicry with meteor shower and maybe use whirlwind and earthquake aswell. What you want is to spam knockdowns as much as possible. While the Ele's target the Spirit Spammers the rest of the team would target the spirits, possibly using EoE to accelerate the process (the spam knockdowns wont last for long). Once a path has been cleared some Warriors would rush in (preferably knockdown Warriors) and attempt to keep the enemy distracted while the Ele's recharge.
The group arrangement would be 2W 3E 2Mo 1R.
Its a pretty vague strategy ATM and havent really thought into detail that much so far.
One easy solution to NR would be to simply make spirits easily interuptable.
Basically what I have been think of is a group of E/Me's as the main counter. The Elementalists would slap on an anti-interupt stance, then use arcane mimicry with meteor shower and maybe use whirlwind and earthquake aswell. What you want is to spam knockdowns as much as possible. While the Ele's target the Spirit Spammers the rest of the team would target the spirits, possibly using EoE to accelerate the process (the spam knockdowns wont last for long). Once a path has been cleared some Warriors would rush in (preferably knockdown Warriors) and attempt to keep the enemy distracted while the Ele's recharge.
The group arrangement would be 2W 3E 2Mo 1R.
Its a pretty vague strategy ATM and havent really thought into detail that much so far.
One easy solution to NR would be to simply make spirits easily interuptable.
fuzzybulldozer
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
1 ranger can't spam Nature Renewal. it has a 5 second cast time and a 60 second recharge time. If you're dropping 1 every minute that's not exactly spamming. Take out the NR then take out the ranger...its not difficult.
Spirit Spammer groups become a problem when you have multiple rangers. 3 rangers could effectively spam Nature Renewal...this is where you need to come up with a build. I've come up with 2 and I've talked to other people that have come up with a couple. I believe Salja has 1. So that's 4 or 5 different counter builds for spirit spammers. it's not that they are doing something right...it's that all of their opponents are doing something wrong. |
cookiehoarder
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Originally Posted by i eat crap
all the devs have to do is basically make it so, so that it is easily interuptable when laying down spirits. just like traps and the whole problem is solved.
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Originally Posted by Syzerian
I started thinking of a possible counter to spirit spamming a few days ago.
Basically what I have been think of is a group of E/Me's as the main counter. The Elementalists would slap on an anti-interupt stance, then use arcane mimicry with meteor shower and maybe use whirlwind and earthquake aswell. What you want is to spam knockdowns as much as possible. While the Ele's target the Spirit Spammers the rest of the team would target the spirits, possibly using EoE to accelerate the process (the spam knockdowns wont last for long). Once a path has been cleared some Warriors would rush in (preferably knockdown Warriors) and attempt to keep the enemy distracted while the Ele's recharge. The group arrangement would be 2W 3E 2Mo 1R. Its a pretty vague strategy ATM and havent really thought into detail that much so far. One easy solution to NR would be to simply make spirits easily interuptable. |
CAT
Heres my beef.
I get whispers 24/7... gj! gj! man ur owning! can i join your team?
And the reason why..?
I have the character name Natures Renewal
OMFGOT STOP WHISPERING ME
I get whispers 24/7... gj! gj! man ur owning! can i join your team?
And the reason why..?
I have the character name Natures Renewal
OMFGOT STOP WHISPERING ME
Yawgmoth Kg
I've played EP twice and i got to say that the spirits they use aren't really the issue... it's the fact that they use them just to stop/hold the other team at the flag stand not really doing anything while killing the npc's and eventually the guild lord... so in fact the only real way to fight them is to give up the flag stand and fight them with less 10% life at your base... of course this makes up for a shitty game and possibly a draw... but from now on it's what my guild will do since it's nearly impossible to win if you play their game
furby
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Originally Posted by Yawgmoth Kg
I've played EP twice and i got to say that the spirits they use aren't really the issue... it's the fact that they use them just to stop/hold the other team at the flag stand not really doing anything while killing the npc's and eventually the guild lord... so in fact the only real way to fight them is to give up the flag stand and fight them with less 10% life at your base... of course this makes up for a shitty game and possibly a draw... but from now on it's what my guild will do since it's nearly impossible to win if you play their game
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you forgot to mention the fact that in the first fight, EP lost a very key player to err=7 in the first 20 seconds, and were fighting 7v8 the WHOLE match. at that point, our dps was shot, and plan B kicked in to just scratch out a victory any way possible. not to mention that due to our loss, you were able to keep our spirit ranger pretty well pre-occupied the whole match.
second time, we had 8v8, and i believe most of your monks were dead/crippled when the guild lord went down 15 minutes into the fight.
EDIT: oh and I was bummed not to see your dude screaming "For Portugal!!" in the second fight. he was fun.
Thock
ok i have yet to play any signifigant amount of PvP in this game. however, in every {edit: competative pvp} game there is an unwritten rule that a build will be dominant and every one will call it broken and call for a nerf/ban/restriction on it. nerf the NR builds and something else will take over and someone else will be complaining about how strong it is and call for a nerf. there will alwys be a better build and and people will always whine piss and moan about it instead of coming up with a consistant way to beat it. so basically the way i see it either NR gets nerfed and some new or old build comes along and takes top spot and people start complaining about that. or people start beating the NR build consistantly with no nerf, that build becomes dominant and people start whining about it. either way there will always be a build at the top and always someone to complain about it.
salja Wachi
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Originally Posted by Thock
ok i have yet to play any signifigant amount of PvP in this game. however, in every {edit: competative pvp} game there is an unwritten rule that a build will be dominant and every one will call it broken and call for a nerf/ban/restriction on it. nerf the NR builds and something else will take over and someone else will be complaining about how strong it is and call for a nerf. there will alwys be a better build and and people will always whine piss and moan about it instead of coming up with a consistant way to beat it. so basically the way i see it either NR gets nerfed and some new or old build comes along and takes top spot and people start complaining about that. or people start beating the NR build consistantly with no nerf, that build becomes dominant and people start whining about it. either way there will always be a build at the top and always someone to complain about it.
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quoted for truth.
salja Wachi
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Originally Posted by CAT
Heres my beef.
I get whispers 24/7... gj! gj! man ur owning! can i join your team? And the reason why..? I have the character name Natures Renewal OMFGOT STOP WHISPERING ME |
rotflmao hilarious
Nash
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Originally Posted by Thock
ok i have yet to play any signifigant amount of PvP in this game.
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salja Wachi
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Originally Posted by Nash
'nuff said. I rest my case.
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rest what case? this game is not so different from most others. when people cannot beat something the want it nerfed here just as in any other game. it happens all the time. when someone cannot succeed they think something is either "broken" or "hacked" or whatever thweir excuse is for not being able to beat it.
use your brains there are counters to NR spammers. we just need to find them.
(or maybe some of us have)
either way it is going to take some brain power to figure it out instead of crying for a nerf.
Quebec Osti
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Originally Posted by Thock
ok i have yet to play any signifigant amount of PvP in this game. however, in every {edit: competative pvp} game there is an unwritten rule that a build will be dominant and every one will call it broken and call for a nerf/ban/restriction on it. nerf the NR builds and something else will take over and someone else will be complaining about how strong it is and call for a nerf. there will alwys be a better build and and people will always whine piss and moan about it instead of coming up with a consistant way to beat it. so basically the way i see it either NR gets nerfed and some new or old build comes along and takes top spot and people start complaining about that. or people start beating the NR build consistantly with no nerf, that build becomes dominant and people start whining about it. either way there will always be a build at the top and always someone to complain about it.
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War/Mo builds - Aegis, Prot spirit, healing seed, ward vs foes,ward vs melee...
Air/ele spike groups - Prot spirit, fertile season, RoF, many others...
Smiting groups - Healing seed, shielding hands, any disenchant, diversion, nature renewal, many others..
Then... we have spirits groups wich dont have any clear counter. Sure there are ways to deal with spirits spammers (more specificly, nature) but not nearly as much or as effective compared to other FOTM we had before.
Thats where the problem is.
Nash
Right, some of the biggest GW veterans, the people who understand GW the most and have been playing it for over a year, are just crying for nerfs because they can't beat the spirit spammers. Do you believe that yourself? Then perhaps you in your infinite wisdom can figure out this awesome counter.
salja Wachi
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Originally Posted by Nash
Right, some of the biggest GW veterans, the people who understand GW the most and have been playing it for over a year, are just crying for nerfs because they can't beat the spirit spammers. Do you believe that yourself? Then perhaps you in your infinite wisdom can figure out this awesome counter.
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playing for a year huh? well since a lot of the game is very very different from the betas i do not see how that is an issue.
that being said there is a counter (probably more than one.) i for one would like to sit down and talk to the people that have been playing for a "year" as you put it and see what they have tried and what they are thinking of trying.
without that all we can do is sit here and cry nerf. i for 1 will not do that
??Evan??
Just to tell you guys, they do not spam natures renewal , they are just simply called "natures renewal" please do not flame me on this because I know what im talking about
-Amazon pvp
Guild: Teh unworthy ( owning halls now and forever )
-Amazon pvp
Guild: Teh unworthy ( owning halls now and forever )
Mimi Miyagi
Regardless of whether the Guild NR is a spirit spamming team or not...
Trivia Time!
Did you know that Ranger spirits are undead?
Did you know that monk smiting skills deal 2x damage vs undead?
Trivial Time over!
Trivia Time!
Did you know that Ranger spirits are undead?
Did you know that monk smiting skills deal 2x damage vs undead?
Trivial Time over!
Phades
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Originally Posted by salja Wachi
hey nice sarcasm. :P
playing for a year huh? well since a lot of the game is very very different from the betas i do not see how that is an issue. that being said there is a counter (probably more than one.) i for one would like to sit down and talk to the people that have been playing for a "year" as you put it and see what they have tried and what they are thinking of trying. without that all we can do is sit here and cry nerf. i for 1 will not do that |
As far as counters and balance go, there was a threads like these:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=45301
(pissing contest warning on the next one)
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...4&page=4&pp=25
(generally informative and mostly constructive)
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=41469
I could find more, but at some point you have to stop and wonder how much is being said again and again by the same and different people. Your comment strikes me as that you managed to somehow miss nearly a month of forum happening, in regards to play and game mechanic balance.
Yawgmoth Kg
he didn't yell it cause he wasn't there he is our official yeller we've tried subbing him but it just wasn't the same...
and i believe u are mistaken... when the guild lord was attacked all of our monks were alive and kicking... as was everyone else... that is what kind of annoys me... u guys really didn't fight us... u just kind of stalled, i can verify that you did try to kill us and we tried to kill you but with fertile up and primal echoes neutralizing signets it's just kind of impossible to kill people when the monks don't make mistakes...but i guess that is a valid strategy since u did win just didn't feel right... lose and learn...
he is our official yeller we've tried subbing him but it just wasn't the same... and i believe u are mistaken... when the guild lord was attacked all of our monks were alive and kicking... as was everyone else... that is what kind of annoys me... u guys really didn't fight us... u just kind of stalled, i can verify that you did try to kill us and we tried to kill you but with fertile up and primal echoes neutralizing signets it's just kind of impossible to kill people when the monks don't make mistakes...but i guess that is a valid strategy since u did win just didn't feel right... lose and learn...
Scaphism
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Originally Posted by salja Wachi
rest what case? this game is not so different from most others. when people cannot beat something the want it nerfed here just as in any other game. it happens all the time. when someone cannot succeed they think something is either "broken" or "hacked" or whatever thweir excuse is for not being able to beat it.
use your brains there are counters to NR spammers. we just need to find them. (or maybe some of us have) either way it is going to take some brain power to figure it out instead of crying for a nerf. |
As soon as you have a counter we haven't yet come up with, post it.
Before you do that, make sure: It's an actual counter; and it doesn't auto-lose to anything it's not designed to counter.
Seeing the same crap lines "stop whining and get better" "I have a counter but wont share it" and "stop the nerfing, everything is fine" infuriates me. On top of that the thread has been completely hijacked as it wasn't about the skill to begin with. Believe me, we already have topics on the skill.
For anyone who does want to attempt discussing the skill Nature's Renewal I recommend calling it a rebalance, not a nerf. Maybe the semantics police will chill the hell out then.
Your ignorance and obstinance frightens me.