Is it possible to have a game without "grind"?

Maybe people arn't responding to your post since it just tried to hide your opinion "I dont like ppl who dont want to grind" behind a huge amount of BS?

Ok, so your in the "I like to grind" camp.

So you are giving us a bunch of useless background information about yourself to try and convince us your this know it all uber gamer then come to the conlusion that some gamers want to have stuff on a silver platter AKA not grind for their stuff? No shit.

Ok so your telling us random irrelevant stuff like "there was no tech support". It's interesting you mention "victory over an opponent", "sometimes other players". I thought you were just interested in progressing your levels and upgrading your equipment through a few hundred ours of gameplay? Oh wait, maybe you like using all that stuff to gank someone who spent less time grinding? Since you "worked so hard" in your game, your entitled to this right?

Yeah ok, we get it. Games should be about WORKING, SUFFERING, PAIN! and hundreds of hours grinding. It's just some spoiled brat who thinks he should "HAVE IT ALL NOW!! ON A SILVER PLATTER!!!". Thanks for your useless opinion.

Well, it's doomed because this is just another instance of people stubbornly trying to defend a game design flaw by saying it's human nature that is making people quit this game.

If anything, it's because Anet ignored human nature that this is a problem. Guild Wars is ambitious, but in some ways not very well thought out even for a hybrid that is trying to do too many things at once.

Going "Guild Wars is an RPG, that means you got to spend hours getting numbers by killing things to get what you want!" is all fine and good, but that doesn't excuse the PvP unlock rate for being unnecessarily slow.

Roleplaying games use levels and equipment as a carrot on a stick.

Guild Wars put a cap on levels and standardized equipment. Unlocking skills does not compensate for that, and does not warrant the hundreds of hours of redundant gameplay. Unlocking skills for PvP is a barrier to gameplay, not an incentive.

The current rant of unlocking skills is a worthless timesink and something that ultimately will prevent most from taking Guild Wars completely seriously as a PvP game. It's the depth of the skills, not the depths one must go to unlocking them that's great about Guild Wars, and unfortunately, that's hidden from most players.

Actually a few of the FF games had segmented zones/maps and frequently were the stages for fast leveling locations. A notable example of this in FF7 was in the first train railway when escaping from a shinra power plant. If you spent 30 mins or so there, you saved yourself several hours down the road.

Most of the console FF games arent long enough to even warrent them being called a grind. Then when you combine it with above average storytelling to mask the grind between points of interest, then the time spent "grinding" is hardly noticed. Virtually all of the final fantasy console games can be finished with the story in under 24 hours played (ie a weekend). There are other side quests or somewhat hidden things that extend it, but depending on how efficently played through the storyline, it can easily be less than double that amount of time to knock them out as well. ~48 hours played total, is hardly a grind in the grand scheme of things. Hell even final fantasy tactics is extreemly lightweight when compared to hoshigami or tactics ogre (pick any of the series). The funny thing with hoshigami, when compared to FFT, is that by the 5th battle if you havent stopped to level up and gain skills/customise the coinfeigm; you will lose the fight 100 of 100 times as your opponent is 3-4 times your average party level and you just run out of steam by the last group. It doesnt help that they used upgraded skills and equipment on some of the characters as well. Stopping to level up takes hours, but its neccacary in that game. While in FFT i have to find ways to stop getting experience in the normal missions, so that when a random map fight happens i wont get owned by level 99 red and black chocobos later in the game.

In other more traditional role playing games, the emphasis is more on the story telling as well and the character advancement is more of a side thing that happens as a need in order to allow the players to interact with the content properly. The only real tradition of a "grind" comes from muds really and those were fairly extreeme in some cases, which lead people to do things like run scripts at night and durring the day, while at work or school, so that the character will actually make meaningful progress day to day or week to week. Of course i hated scripters back then and now people just call them botters, but it was reasonably accepted behavior then considering the scale of the game involved. I do find that it is rather telling how people think its fine to do such things when there is not much more to the game aside from the grind.

Best grinding game ever:

http://www.progressquest.com/

Phades, you should call nintendo power and demand a job. You mysteriously beat the majority of Final Fantasy games in less than half the time it took them to do it.

Nintendo Power recorded 67 hours of gameplay to complete FF7. They post an 84 Hour time for FFX...

Nearly every RPG on the market has level advancement, and thus the potential for grind. In fact, I think the advancement of a character's levels has become synonymous with RPG.

Grind only exists when the player gets tired of the current in-game objective and is prevented from proceeding in the game because their character level (or some other statistic) is not high enough.

Some players want instant gratification and thus see "GRIND" when they're not the most powerful character in the game from the minute they buy the box. These players should not be playing any online RPG.

Other players enjoy the progression through the levels based on time and a steady input of player hours.

Both groups can potentially encounter "grind", but it's usually the former who are most affected by it. The goal of any online RPG is to reward the player in accordance with the expectations of the player. If a player is getting squat but thinks they are being adequately rewarded, there is no grind. If a player is being rewarded handsomely for their efforts but still thinks they should have more as a reward, you'll hear a complaint about grinding.

I have wondered why people play MOG's instead of single player RPG's, but I can only offer what I have discerned as my own reasons for playing.

In no particular order:

1. It's fun to find a cool item or gain a level, but it's even more fun to show it off to a real person who also plays the game.

2. I'm a social creature, but I'm also a gamer. Playing a single-player RPG I need to take a break about once an hour just to talk to a living person. MOG's allow you the illusion of human interaction. Just remember that you're still sitting in the dark in the middle of a beautiful summer day, and that most girls don't dig a total geek. Also remember that the girl you just met in your favourite game is probably a guy.

3. It's an escape. When the real world gives me a kick in the nuts, I can escape into a fantasy world where I'm very successful and powerful. Some people use alcohol or drugs, I use this. Just remember that it can keep you from dealing with your real world problems. The real world has much harsher penalties and isn't always fair, but it's also more rewarding and will never have server issues.

4. Power. There is an artificial sense of power when you kill another player online. This is where griefing comes in. To most gamers it doesn't matter if the other player was at a disadvantage. Hell, most enemies in PvE are at a severe disadvantage so we've been conditioned to accept that we're just plain "better" than our enemies. The thrill is in knowing that some stranger sitting in another dark room in the middle of summer is cursing and throwing his wireless mouse across the room. I don't know what this says about the human psyche, but it's true. Unfortunately this type of conflict also has the potential to have me throwing my mouse across the room, so it's a risky proposition.

5. Exploring. These games really are beautiful. To see real world terrain and landscapes like these, you'd have to travel 12 hours by plane and probably 6 hours by Llama. Some of these vistas just don't exist anywhere but in a game. One of the most satisfying aspects in any game is finding an amazing backdrop and hitting [Prnt Scrn].

I realize these goals might seem off-topic, but there is a method to my madness. These are all reasons I play GW. If I don't feel I'm meeting one of these criteria at any given time, chances are I'll shut off the game because it's too much of a grind.

Koroh

Nintendo power, along with most other gaming mags, stopped being useful in the early to mid 90s. Occasionally there are useful tidbits here and there, but it was way easier to just phone up a friend and see if they caught anything i missed. It happened frequently enough that i would catch things that they wouldnt and they would catch things i wouldnt. Through colaboration it ended up with more streamlined times and completion amounts.

There are ways to very easily power game sections of the various final fantasy games. Many of those sections save time later on, which allow for the other luxuries like the no-encounters style items so that you can jump to the parts that are more time efficient to do. In every instance you power game most of the time, it raises the bar for the rest of the characters you add to your party, which also lessens the amount of time spent wandering around and fighting. 67 hours and 84 hours sounds more like having every character with every single option and wasted time failing some of the side games once or twice. Its not neccacary to do that in order to beat the post game stuff like the weapons or the arena challenge monsters.

I still cant beat a few of the times put forward by my friends in some games, like the resident evil series. I have difficulty getting under the ~10-12hr mark depending on which version it was, while they were getting closer to 8hrs complete per run.

I would say that "doing UW regularly" is in itself pretty much a grind, as that's the whole definition of grind. Doing something over and over again for a tangible reward, be it XP, items or plain gold.

Most games will feature a grind of some kind, but I would supposition that there has to be a reward at the end for it to constitute being a grind. Someone provided Counterstrike as an example of a game without grind, and it's true, because there's no reward at the end.
Battlefield 2, however, is a monstrous grind fest. Why the distinction between the two? Because Battlefield 2 has tangible "rewards" for the players (in the medals, the ranks, the unlockables) which in a way influence the way they play. Noone in their right minds would ever play a map using just the knife, but if you want to get the medal for it, that's exactly what you have to do.

The gameplay between the two (CS and BF2) is in essence the same. Groups of players on one side fighting groups of players on the other side, with some goals built in.

GW is guilty of grind as much as most mmorpgs, for the skills that you want to unlock. People will say "Well, then play through the game again with a different character."
How is that NOT grinding? You're doing the EXACT same thing over again, just for that tangible reward at the end. I fail to see how it's different from a grind where you just kill the same monsters over and over hoping for that rare item to drop. Just the reward is different.

Anet keeps saying "there is no grind in Guild Wars", but they are deluding themselves by doing so. A quest that makes me "kill ten earth elementals" for 500 xp is the very DEFINITION of a grind. Having to gather ten Losaru Manes for a collector to get an item is most assuredly grinding. But it's also fun grind, because it gives you a substantial reward. So why the hatred against it?

(In fact, since items supposedly have no real value in the game anyways, and they don't make a difference in the outcome of any battle, I don't understand what Anet's harsh stance against farming is anyways. If people who are bored with your storyline want to farm for the fun of finding some better items, why not let them do it?)

Every game where you experience character growth will have some form of grind in it. The real question is whether or not that grinding becomes NECESSARY in order to advance through the game. Say for example that Guild Wars has an arbitrary rule that you'd HAVE to be level 8 before you could get out of the newb zone. That would be a necessary grind, and a Very Bad Thing. But if someone enjoys ganking a few minotaurs over and over to get to that next level, he is grinding, but what's the problem with it?

Good thread.

Creston

What the... I wake up this morning and suddenly the only thing most people got out of my post is that I love grind? Wow...I'd like to thank people's intellegent responses first of all, but I really want to enforce the fact that this isn't me trying to rally everyone onto the "grind 4 lyfe" bandwagon here, I only wanted to make people who wimper all day about the game making them grind in order to compete aware that it's only natural for people that play more (be it via bots or otherwise) to have more of an edge. Also, please keep in mind I'm using the word "grind" very loosely, to basically mean repeating parts of the game again and again in order to gain an advantage over someone who doesn't. Thanks again for your opinions, and thank you Mr. SOT, I feel like you're dead on as well, but it's impossible to say who is right and who is not right on things like this...so let's leave it at we're all at least a little wrong

Nicely put Creston...the real difference is that Guild Wars doesn't have a necessary grind for the PvE portion of the game. And with faction they've limited the grind for PvP players. If players WANT to grind because they are bored and still want to play the game....why is that a bad thing?

p.s. back before I started playing Guild Wars my CS Cal team would play entire matches with just a knife and a hand grenade

I won't get into this argument much, having done all this before. But to the person who said that other games like counterstrike have their own kind of grind - you are so wrong. Playing a game and developing skill isn't grind. You are learning and practicing - that's not "grind". There is no skill development in slapping a known build together to go farm experience or items - there is a skill development in playing a game against various opponents.

There is no "grind" in DoD to get to a level playing field - you start on one. Nobody objects to the fact that it takes work to get good at PvP. That's practice, that's learning, thinking... what people object to is that you have to do mindless crap just to have a fair starting point. To those who think it's "earning" the right to play that way you are totally misguided. Do you "earn" the right to use a queen in a game of chess? It isn't part of some "modern age" that expects everything handed to them on a silver platter to expect that when you start a game of chess you'll have as many pieces as your opponent - that's been common sense for centuries. And no, for PvP the game doesn't start at level 1, and doesn't consist of levelling. PvP the game starts when the game loads, and it is at that time that teams should have an equal start.

Hi. My first real post here. I randomly decided to use Sanji's post to reply to. I'm just going to post a few opinions that don't really matter since I'm only one person of many playing this game, and it probably won't change anyone's mind anyway (Not that it's really meant to). I find that that is human nature.
Isn't this opinion and not a fact? If some people enjoy what you think is "grind," then how can it be a fault with the game? It depends on the person. I believe there is no such thing as playing a game the "wrong" way. The game is presented to you so that you can play it however you want. Unless the developer specifically states that you can not play that way and takes action (e.g., botting).
Again, we come down to a difference in opinion. I have played mostly PvE and also dabbled in PvP (not much, about 6000 faction solely in 4v4 arena), all with one character. I have found no need to run through the game. I have found the number of skill points acquired through casual normal play to be adequate. It's not grind TO ME.
Diablo II/LOD is one of my favorite games ever. Many people STILL play it regularly. I have gone to the same towns, done the same missions, and killed the same monsters to obtain skills. Is that grind? Depends on the person playing. Anyway, once you have unlocked all or almost all of the skills you need, then that's it. You don't ever have to unlock them again. Not true of games like Diablo II. You have to "grind" to get the skills you want every time.
So 560 hours wasting your time? You were grinding the whole time, essentially doing something you hate, the whole time? And if you have unlocked so many of the skills already, then why are you complaining about the time it takes to unlock skills? You now have them all for use at any time, whereas I who has spent roughly the same amount of time playing the game as you have has unlocked maybe 20% of all skills. You have worked, or "grinded," for your skills... now you have them, and in far less time than it will take me to unlock everything. The preceding questions aren't meant to incite you; I'm truly curious about your opinion. About unlocking the garbage skills... see below.
I think playing abnormally would be to take those garbage skills that most people probably don't use and make builds with them. Playing abnormally can also be defined as playing and not caring about whether you win or lose, or maybe not caring about how long it takes you to win. My opinion is that you are playing normally as a power player (isn't that kind of paradoxical?) who wants more for less. I don't know you, but that's just how you come across to me as. But anyway, if you consider the grind in GW to be a game fault, then you could also say that playing the game despite its faults is playing abnormally. Which you kinda dig. (I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, so please don't take it that way.)
This matters to you how? Even if it becomes a niche market game, if you continue to play it, then it will have served its purpose. Same for anyone else.
If you became bored with it, IMHO that's your fault and not the game's. There are many possible permutations of primary/secondary/attribute/skill setups. Again, it is my opinion that playing abnormally would be to try every single permutation possible. If you are not satisfied with that, then again it is not the game's fault but your own opinion. It seems that the only way to please you would be to have either a limitless number or an ever-increasing number of different professions and skills, the former of which is impossible and the latter possible but probably not at the speed which would not bore you.
Play abnormally to have a decent selection of skills? Again that is solely your opinion, not a fact as you claim. I play what I consider normally, and even though I have 100% of the necro skills and about 10% of the rest, I find that it is enough for me. With the few skills I have unlocked, I have been able to satisfactorily create new builds and have fun with them. But that's just me. Again, however, I agree with the opnion that experimentation is somewhat limited by the use of attribute refunds. To truly change your build repeatedly, you have to continuously use and acquire attribute points.
I agree that you can't view Guild Wars as a traditional MMORPG. And yes, it's a team-based game. Yes, you need flexibility, but not to get the most of the game. The definition of "getting the most of the game" depends on the person defining it. And if people are going inactive because their guilds are going inactive, well... I fail to understand how that is the game's fault. There seem to be plenty of people who enjoy the game as it is and are still actively playing in active guilds. Besides, isn't it inevitable that guilds will come and go?
Opinion again. I personally see nothing wrong with the unlock system; I may not have every skill there is, and it may not be a broad selection, but it's not detrimental to me. If I want a broad selection of skills, I'll get them. And have fun while doing so. Fun to me, anyway.
I'm not 100% clear on what you mean here, but I'm going to try to guess at your meaning. I guess what you're trying to say is that the true fault with the game is that it tried to be a hybrid of the two and not a black-and-white one or the other. But if your opinion mentioned previously is true (re: hybrid games & niche market), then this game will become that niche game as long as it remains a hybrid.
I agree with the first part about Guild Wars not being a traditional MMO, and I'm sure you're right about the second part.
I never played the beta, so I have no way of comparing. But there's no point in complaining about how dissimilar it is from the beta or from interviews made (I assume) prior to retail release. The game you have now is the game you have. The developers MAY change it for one reason or another, but the fact remains that what you get is what you have. You have the choice to continue playing or move on to bigger and better things.

Phew! So, in conclusion:
~ Whether or not there is too much, too little, or if it even exists at all, grind depends on the person who is playing the game. Saying that the game is flawed is opinion, not fact.
~ Too many people express opinion and try to portray them as facts; in their own minds, it is fact. In reality, it is a fact that it is an opinion. And that is not an opinion.
~ People will always find something to complain about, and there will always be people to defend it, and there will always be people who don't really care either way and just play the darn game.
~ It seems to me that many of the people who are complaining can be described as power players. It also seems that you want more for less, faster, faster, faster. I'm sure that there are power players who aren't complaining. Just an observation/opinion. Feel free to rebut me.
~ I thought I had some more conclusions but I've forgotten them now. Sorry.

Thanks for helping me kill about 45 minutes on this post! See ya, everyone.

O
M
G

Xlarisux, you rock. You've freed me from the fear that my posts were too long.

I am forever in your debt.

Koroh

You win the internet.

Glad I could be of service. I had time to kill.

Quoted for truth. (First time I have used that phrase in a forum. Good job!)

Ok let me just say that I didn't read all these threads but I will put in my 2 cents anyways.

A game is only a grind if you make it that way. I've pretty much hung up my GW spurs not because it's a grind but because it's not worth spending the time on. If I had to level strictly on PvP (just as an example, don't get yer panties in a twist) that is a grind, to me atleast. I love doing quests, farming and building up a character. I suspect many people here think of that as a grind, I do not. It is a slow build up to which each stage is a goal that is rewarding, that is what I expect.

Except in GW it isn't a slow build up it's just to get a item that 's going to one ultimate thing. Maybe if people didn't try to rush through the game 5 times to unlock everything maybe they'd take the pleasure in trading salvageables and stuff. Hence making it more a sense of accomplishment rather than 'grinding' just so you can afford a superior rune...or whatever.

This game in RPG terms is about as easy as any game out there. Its hard to belive there is a 'grind', but I guess for some there is. But keep in my your idea of grinding may not be someone elses.

You are an idiot. Reading comprehension is beyond your understanding. I am agreeing with the OP that grinding is a part of games, whether people like you like it or do not. It is also needed, because it makes people like you squirm out from whatever rock it is you appeared from to attempt to insult me with concepts that are so far beneath me it makes me smile at your lack of meaning. I could not care less who likes to grind or not. My agreement with a thread you have not yet contributed to except to snipe at someone out of your league of experience, that was stating this game, the game you play (i assume) is a grind. It is. You hate that. I am smiling.

Once more, you are an idiot who cannot read. And if my post is irrelevant and useless, then what does that make you, someone who I stole life from to make you waste it posting back at me when your vitriol is aimed someplace else, like insecurities that I know nothing of, and would care nothing of.

Go back to english class, read my post again, and try to impress a girl with less street language, and more manhood. I am not impressed.

I agree somewhat; It is nearly impossible to apply two different worlds into one. But still they have told us this from the beginning that they were gonna try to accomplish this in their game. And I still have reason to believe they are going to accomplish this goal. Although I think that one more beta test before retail wouldn't have killed them .

I don't think people like grind.... What I think these people actually like is to play along with a story and experience how the plot itself unfolds. Plus they like the ability to control their own destiny.... even though I haven't really seen that in this game so far... im still waiting to have choices.

Guild Wars has a good story, but it is a bit short... each mission does have it's own little story though, but I have only seen a few missions actually lead to other missions in this game, which causes this game to have just a lot of short missions and quests other than an abundance of meaningful missions which you would remember for a lifetime.
_______________________________________

Takkun: Awaiting a mission involving Gwen, a mission which would leave a mark on this game and the forums forever.

..but is a grind really a grind if you enjoy it. I mean if you have to kill XX NPC beasties repeatedly, isn't that the same as killing XX of online characters repeatedly in PvP?

Well there is a difference:

Killing XX NPC beasties = same skills, all of them acting the same as the one before

Killing XX online characters = Each battle with each person is unique. I have yet to fight two people the same in my competitions yet. Even if they do have the same skills, they react to what you use different than an NPC would

In my opinion, all RPG games (whether its MMORPG like World of Warcraft, Gunz, Guild Wars, Diablo I & II or RPG series like Final Fantasy) It will have grind it in since character have to level up to certain level in order to survive in the game. I know its tendious to fight million of monsters to reach from one level to another but that the design for these games.

I dunno I find PvP in GW very reptitious. Which is the reason I don't like it and I don't play that part of it..... but that's my opinion I respect others for enjoying it. I don't complain.

But if a person enjoys those games and doesn't think it repetitious, is it still a grind?

Does anyone say they actually enjoy the grind? Evidently the millions of people who play WoW either do or they don't. Everyone should ask instead why is that grind so appealing to so many people in those games and why it isn't in GW.

It's your assumption that I am stating my opinions as fact, I am not. I am expressing what I believe is right and can't be bothered to preface every statement with the wishy-washy "In my opinion".

I only called it playing the game "wrong" because often times in threads like these there are people who feel the need to say that you don't -need- to do or get such and such. If you don't need to do that, then it doesn't need to be so troublesome and convoluted.

Funny how that happens.

Just because you and others are satisfied with playing with a limited pool of skills does not mean the PvP unlocks are balanced. You would lose absolutely nothing if the process was made quicker while Guild Wars on a whole would gain plenty.

Diablo II has balanced incentives such as character development and gear with grind. While I admire the unlock system, I still think it needs to be sped up. Not for the individual, but for the enviroment. PvP is far more important in Guild Wars than in Diablo.

I never said I wasted 560 or that I didn't enjoy doing it, thanks for putting words in my mouth.

I've already explained why I'm complaining but I suppose I'll repeat myself. I am concerned about the enviroment, not myself. All the skills in the world don't matter if my friends and Guildmates no longer play due to skillpoint burn out.

It especially doesn't matter if the PvP enviroment diminishes to the point that there is nothing but a handful of scrubs and powergamers left.

I said garbage skills because mostly they are skills I am so wary against that I don't especially feel like spending an hour grinding for XP and then another hour trying to capture it from a Boss.

Let's get something straight, I do play the game despite it's fault. I really like Guild Wars, I have been following it since last October, not as long as some, but I have invested far more time than I care to mention in Guild Wars even before release. I see something in it that is flawed, so you'll have to forgive me for being outspoken because I want it fixed.

It's tough enough to make groups as it is now.

I'm not bored with the game, I just wish that my friends weren't.

What's good enough for you isn't what's good enough for everyone. That's soley your opinion, and again, I not claiming what I am saying is fact. The closest I came to that is perhaps incorrectly using the expression "The fact remains".

I just think builds and skills shouldn't be stiffled by the current rate of unlocks.

Because the skill unlock system isn't doing anything but causing people to quit? I still fail to see any worth in the current rate of unlocks, PvE players don't care about it (they're going to farm monsters anyways) and it does nothing but cause the PvP environment to stagnate.

Again, I don't have a problem with the unlock system, just how it's implimented. Skills are burried far too deeply into the game and skill points dry up too quickly. If it's fun to you, well, that's your opinion, not fact.

What I was driving at is Guild Wars is driving so hard at two things, but in a way that they interact with each other in the worst ways. Guild Wars is going to disappoint any who wants either PvP or PvE in excess, and it's hard to find someone who wants to mix the two since a hardcore grinder is going to want his efforts to give him an advantage over other players.

Which sucks, because that's exactly the direction Guild Wars should NOT be going.

Many people bought the game because of the Beta, if Guild Wars was more like the Developers said it would be, things would be different and perhaps better. I think the PvP is strong enough to stand on it's own without the skill grind, mostly because as an artificial replay value mechanic, it doesn't really serve any purpose but to cling to traditions. Guild Wars was supposed to be revolutionary, but all it ended up doing was being a really good game that did things a little differently.

I guess it could have been worse and the game could have completely bombed, but all in all, there is still a potential for Guild Wars that has yet to be unlocked. (heh!)

Oh, I didn't play in the beta weekend that has UAS, should anyone ask or assume.


Yeah.

Too many people read opinions and assume they're facts.


Well, oddly enough I was defending what this thread was complaining about.

No, I just want peers who don't have to be power players like I was.

Great reply all in all. I think I understand your position much better now, although there are a few points in your reply that I'd like to discuss. Since I'm at home now, I don't really feel like writing too much. If I didn't quote you on something, then it's because I either agree with you or understand where you're coming from and basically have nothing to say in response. Or I'm just too lazy to.
I think you're right, I misinterpreted your statement when you said: "Bull, grind is every bit the fault with the game." My apologies, it sounded like you were trying to pass it off as a fact that grind is a fault in the game.
But because you and others are not satisfied with the rate of PvP unlocks, does that mean it's unbalanced? Who determines what is balanced? I agree though that I and anyone else who PvPs loses nothing by quicker unlocks. However, the way I see it, you've unlocked almost every skill in less total time than I have played, and now you have those skills forever. Whatever your method was, PvE or PvP unlocking, it was far more efficient than what I'm doing. It could be said that I'm grinding while you are not.

It was implied by your dissatisfaction with the unlocking of all of your skills. You spent ~560 hours or part of that time "grinding" to get all of those skills and you dislike grind, so I assumed that you disliked that time. If my assumption was wrong then my apologies.
I can understand being concerned with the environment, but what I'm confused by is why you and others got burned out in the first place. Only your desire to have everything more quickly caused you to burn out. It wasn't the game that burned you out, you played the game in a manner that burned you out.
I can understand that some skills appear useless, I'm guilty of that feeling myself. I think the true challenge here is to simply get that skill and use it in a way that makes it meaningful. I agree that capturing some skills may take some time, but that doesn't necessarily make it grind. You've got a clear reward for your time, and you don't have to do it again unless you want to.
Henchies.
People will get bored of games and move on, there's really not a whole lot you can do about that. As long as you continue to enjoy the game, that should really be good enough.
Aahh, but if it's fun to me, that doesn't make it my opinion or anyone else's. It's a fact that it's fun to me.
I had to quote this because I strongly believe you are correct.
Guilty as charged. I do try to avoid that, however. It would be a better world if more people did.
Ah, but they don't HAVE to be power players like you were! That's a conscious decision that you made and a choice that every player is faced with. Some may follow your footsteps and not consider it to be grind at all, while others may feel as you do.

In the end, the question about grind - how much of it exists or whether it exists at all - is not something that can be effectively argued because it is completely subjective.

Just play the darn game!

P.S.
Thanks for the non-flaming, calm, intelligent reply. I feared the worst. I probably won't post in this thread or this forum again, but I'll be looking forward to your response.

P.P.S.
I included too many smilies in my post? WTF? =P

I swear, there's a resonance frequency in the word "grind" that calls every "OMGWTF You whiners want it all just play the game you don't need to unlock skills to be competitive I know so much about PvP my guild is ranked 5479 and whats the Hall of Heroes' poster out and forces them to share their infinite wisdom with the world.

The second post of this thread should have been:
"
Can you have a game without grind?

Yes, chess. QED
"

Rest is just fluff.

Can you have a RPG without grind?

Yes. Every RPG that does not involve other players is very unlikely to have grind. It still can have boring or repetitive parts, but only because you can powerlevel in FF does not mean that you have to.
You need to understand the fact why you dont need max level in BG II, but you need max level, skill, equipment in GW pvp. if you dont understand this, i cant argue further, since i dont have any clue whatsoever about teaching difficult cases.

I think it's misguided to assume that suggestions to shorten the amount of time to obtain skills is a cry to make the game easier or to be given anything on a silver platter. I am making claims that the current unlock system is unbalanced because I feel very strongly that it only serves to degrade the game environment, when it could instead enrich it. I say it's unbalanced and flawed because players have the capacity to go at it too quickly or go so deeply into it that Guild Wars is no longer rewarding, that should not be the case. I think Guild Wars is strong enough of a game on it's own that it doesn't need to rely so heavily on the artificial replay value grind crutch. Because that's what it is, a crutch.

Nevermind how other games handled character progression, Guild Wars needed PvP characters and skill unlocks. Forgive me for being audacious in being of the opinion that it isn't enough, but I feel for the true potential for Guild Wars to be discovered, PvP players need to be able to unlock the content they need in a more suitable and expedient fashion. I don't know what can be done to keep the MMO Players or the Hack n' Slashers around longer, but it won't be skill grind. On the other hand, Skill grind is exactly what is chasing away PvP players, that's why I have a problem with it and why I spent so much time rambling on in this thread.

I think many of the opponents to the idea of removing the treadmill involved within unlocks, is that they feel it is a cry out for needing something easier. The problem is there is a difference between easy and time consuming. Xenosaga is an easy game, but it is very time consuming due to the excessive amounts of segmented cut scenes and plot advancing conversations. It also has a bad layout for the secondary missions that require the player to go back and forth constantly through content already explored. Mechanics like this are designed to extend gameplay, but do not add to the replay value of said content. There is also a difference between playing through the content and replaying the same content over and over again. I believe this is another point many people miss when trying to associate the "grind" as a common factor between games.

The style for the unlock system is decent for the pve environment and it allows the devs to tailor the content against what the players could bring to the table and add challenge to the game. Unfortunatly there are not many instances within the game where you need skill x in order to advance through environment sequence y. It is even fine for a pve environment that includes pvp, as many of the same options that are found for pve challenge exist within the pvp dynamics between players. This game captures this the best in the pre-searing arena fight, but lacks depth for a involved experience. What would make the game stand out if more of that style of gameplay existed within the game, however it would require more controlls on the pve than what exist currently. In a pvp exclusive environment, the unlock system is counter intuitive as there are no restrictions other than victory conditions. This requires the players to have all (if not all, all useful) skill options, in order to be able to react properly with build designs over time.

To say the unlock system that creates the "grind" in guild wars is a bad mechanic is not accurate. However, it is a bad mechanic for a pvp exclusive environment that the end game represents and goes against the principle of player skill having more weight than character attributes, which is what many people quote as a founding idea within guild wars from an early interview with one of the developers of the game. I do agree that it is an introduced idea that forces replay, opposed to the player choosing to replay.

Then they should have made a portion of the game completely PvP. They certainly didn't balance the RPG/PvP aspect of it at all. As a person on the other end of the spectrum the game has limited gameplay and wonder why people want to have everything all at once.

Maybe its because i never got into console / "asian" style RPGs that i consider GW PvE to be un-rpgsih.

Sorry, but running around killing bosses, and "capturing" "elite skills" is cheap. Turning a warrior type who totally mastered swords and tactics (16/10/x) into a axe-wielding mage who can unleash firestorms and meteor rains (that are not much worse then the meteor storms the best elemtal mages could ever hope to evoke! 16/12/x) on his enemies within 30s after talking to some ghost in some desert is not my idea of "character building". The "you unlocked stuff for pvp" message does not help immersion either.

Thats why i consider skill unlock to be the worst grind ever designed (outside of p2p games - those are so bad that you get payed for playing them or something equally stupid). You need everything to be competitive, you can get everything to be competitive in 300-4000h depending on access to friends runners and tolerance of pve, and neither is the process of getting everything fun, nor immersive.
It screams "hey im a cheap GAME mechanic that has absolutely nothing to do with the world, the story, your character or whatever, im just here because online games with swords and spells need delayed tool aquisition because um just because".

I love how people keep arguing with such vigor and passion, about a game thew CONSISTENTLY refer to in the past tense. It's like trying to upset an unwelcome relative at a family gathering by talking about them as if they are not in the room, 3 feet fromt them.



WTF? LMAO

I agree and disagree. The way they made PvP and PvE interact with each other was a mistake that they have sought to fix with faction. PvE is still a much better way to get unlocks and that needs to change.

PvE has suffered a lot for the sake of PvP as well through the level cap and standardized equipment.

However, I don't see them splitting the game in half and making an UAS PvP Server or the "Free MMO/Diablo 3" server where you can get to level 80 and get a Epic +5 Golden Slaying Sword of the Monkey or any of that nonsense. Guild Wars was made a hybrid and Anet has a tough job making both parts not only work but work together.

PvE may very well have limited gameplay, but PvP has unlimited*.

*Some assembly required

Clever as you usually are, you missed the mark here. PVP has no unlimited gameplay, by virtue of the fact of the kinds of people you encounter. The PVP may be really long-living to the ultimate unlocker, or the ebayed badass, or the person who actually played PVE and maxed all their stats, etc, but in the end, it comes down to the types of people you face in pvp. The quality of that group is unfortunately, not a constant bright beam of awesomeness*.



*See also, idiots in large groups attempting to be authoritative on something of only minimal meaning in the big scheme of things

Chess is an interesting example. Sure, you have access to everything right away; no need to unlock bishops or whatever.

In GW, there is a confusion... There is the unlocking feature, and people claiming that it betrays "skill against time played", since the most time you've spent unlocking, the "better" you are.

There is a big difference between "skill against time played" and "(absence of) grind"

Time played is a reward of its own. The more you play chess the better you are at it. There is no way in hell someone who plays 1 hour a month can beat someone who plays 5 hours a week... or 10 a day.

You can have a grindless game, and still, it will reward time spent over skill, and it will be tough for casual gamers in competition.

What really matters is: do you have fun while playing?

Louis,

some points the pvp hard core ignore

1 this was never advertised or intended to be a grind free game

2
3 the grind is there on purpose and not by accident or a *mistake* as the hard core pvp minority assert

Are you just randomly posting that, Loviatar? Nobody is even really talking about UAS.

That's a cute collection of press quotes, though. Want me to dig up some that ended up not applying to Guild Wars?

i thought the references to ROLEPLAYING and PROGRESSION would apply in the so called grind catagory.

it was not ransomly posted and UAS was not mentioned by me

no offense meant simply showing that from the start they intended it as RPG as well as pvp and not pvp with a last second addition of the RP aspect

I think the PvP from a integration point of view is limited in the fact that one feel's that you can't have a good experience unless you have all the unlocks. This may or may not be true in reality but that is the impression you get from players especially in this forum. I think the human nature of people has to be taken into effect when designing a game.

There are games that have winning combinations with PvP and PvE that you can have an enjoyable experience and not have to rush to get uber gear within a month.

of course its possible to have a game without grind.

here are some examples.

http://www.scorch2000.com/
http://www.onemorelevel.com/games/avoider.html
http://lcs.www.media.mit.edu/groups/...ects/spacewar/
http://www.turbotanks.com/

none of these games have any grind. Notice, none of them have any kind of advancement or character development in it. I don't personally view complaints about grind in GW as valid in the slightest. for several reasons. Mostly because grind is subjective to opinion depending on what type of game the individual enjoys, all stereotypes aside.