Is it possible to have a game without "grind"?

The first thing i have ever agreed with theocrat about!!! a first for the lexicons of history. Grind is a subjective word. I really dont think it is possible to make an RPG without some presumed amount of grind. My opinion stems from the fact that alot of the games i have liked *edit* ( and have been loved by many. Limiting it to the RPG spectrum) *have come with some ''grind''. For some people it is very boring for others....well there are people who enjoy killing everylast thing and get more....m...excited than they should by the flashing lights and leveling theme music.

Noone cares about opinions. The fact that there are 300-4000h between competitive players - plus those who want to be good because of their human skills that they developed spending time (OMG repetitive playing of THE SAME chess pieces EACH time OMG = GRIND) - and a fun competitive game is not valid in the slightest? Right.

If there are at least 10 people in everything that one would call GW community that consider skill unlocks superior to either UAS or conventional leveling / character progressing systems, i have to admit that there are worse "misunderstandings" than MOOIII and Daikatana.

***

Noone cares about that. This does in no way interfere with competitive play since these games either are not designed for competitve play, or dont allow pvp to begin with.

***
1. the 4000 was no typo. Read the unlock through faction analysis.
2. 300h of pointless botting just to play the game you want to play in the first part? ANET should ban bots, wether they are stupid humans mindlessly grinding UW / Riverside /Griffon computer programs.

I dont know of a single offline RPG that has grind. NOT A SINGLE one.

***

Translation:

If you claim that grind "depends on opinion" when "play to win" pvp is involved, i umm ... dont value anything you say from this point on.

But that is the point, alot of this is opinion. 300-400 hrs if even true is nothing on my characters.

I actually believe that this is some sort of lingering effect of the exceedingly heavy influence that D&D has had on the genre. I've played a number of P&P RPGs that are exactly that, Role Playing Games. In order to story tell and play a role, you do not need a mechanism for increasing player power over time. This isn't 100% the same thing, but I would actually point to those old adventure games that have gone away (I still don't know why, I loved them!) such as Space Quest as a good example. In that game, you did actually role play and tell the story of one silly but heroic janitor out to save the galaxy. The game was outstanding, but the game did not focus on combat, and the story would progress after you performed a series of tasks and conversations rather than when your character had built up enough power to demolish an obstacle.

-Diomedes

I dont mean to be rude, honestly, but can someone please translate this for me, I've honestly read this 3x and I cant make heads or tails out of what hes trying to say other than he disagrees with my opinion that grind is objective.

no clue here...i read his noone cares comment about my response and am still a bit lost myself. I think he is talking from PVP only but not sure....

I can't translate it to your language, I don't speak idiot.

Nah, a real RPG is not about roleplaying but about increasing "loot" and numbers in your "stats" block. Who cares if "unlock stuff for pvp" has no relation to your WalkingUnlockSystem (character? even toon is ridiculous...), but instead levels your account.

My account is teh min/maxed and pwns your account. great game design.

he said your opinion sucks and I agree

縞馬

I think, again as an opinion, that D&D quantified it a bit more. It was easier to show you were "better" than before, and provided some kind of structure for comparision....then let human nature take over from there. I also think people like killing things just makes everything more fun ehe. That is true though, whatever did happen to those games.

I think youre more than half right about the D&D comment, or replace that with whatever your p&p game of choice is, Shadowrun, Vampire and its offspring, gurps, whatever. Even so, for SOME players the point of that game is the telling of a story and the playing of a role. For others, they take more pleasure in the advancement of a character. Still others, like many in this and other online games, are pure number crunchers, whos goal is to push the envelope of the rules. So even with the p&p games whats fun (or not grind, if you will) is subjective.

I Loved SpaceQuest, and KingsQuest and such. You could almost lump Myst with that catagory. (hated it, preffered the 7th guest) In a sense they are all adventure games although with different styles, and all tell a story and progress thru events as opposed to "x more monsters to kill".

Lets take a look at the game that really put MMO on the map. EQ. That game was groundbreaking, and while it was tragically flawed in some regards in hindsight, I think its fair to say it has influenced most online RPG's of any type since, either with them borrowing concepts, or avoiding flaws.

I'll try to be brief, but I'd like to go into what addicted me to that game for years. First, there was no storyline, instead you had a huge and continuous (excusing zonelines) world to explore, and almost no linear content. Second, that world was alive. Back in the early days we had some excellent GM's running around invisably, and sometimes visably, making all kind of things happen in game. Events were awesome, as to that point I'd never seen a game that was so socially based and such a living breathing world. Theres more but I dont want to get sidetracked. The point is that for me at least the draw was that I could roleplay a character without linear restraints in this vast and everchanging world.

GW has zero grind by my estimation in comparision to EQ which with the possible exception of the FFonline games is grind king. There were people who tried eq and hated it because of the grind and didnt play it. One of my friends referred to the grind (although we didnt call it that back in the day) as Rat Hunter 3d, because you had to spend some time before you got to move on to beetles and so on. Thoes people played what? Quake? Team fortress? And the people who dug what I dug about EQ didnt play quake or whatever the others were playing.

ok, back to today.

The problem with guild wars is that its trying to please both crowds. The old school roleplayers like myself want to be able to value and and grow and develop our characters, not just in skills but in character. (roleplayers will know that makes sense) We also want to see demonstrable gain for our time spent as compared to those who have not. We are not nessisarly opposed to player vs player for the sake of it. But we dont care to see the roleplaying side of GW watered down any further for the sake of PVP.

The people who didnt dig on EQ because of the "Rat Hunter 3d" factor, the ones who come to GW from UT, or quake, or whatever because of the pvp (nothing wrong with that) dont want time spent to matter, they dont want to be forced to value thier characters, and thats understandable, the other games didnt ask them to form an attachment to thier character just so that he could be beaten to the flak cannon and get gibbed. They want an even playing field so that pure skill defines the winner. Also understandable.

These ideas cause me to belive that the debate about grind will never end until the people who dont want to be forced to spend time, or value thier character ( as opposed to just seeing it as a disposable collection of skills) are given what they want, which is that Twitch feel, where skill selection and mouse/keyboard skills are the sole seperatoins between players. Also Known as UAS. I say give it to em. Then seperate the two gaming experiences.

But if its done like that, I think they should Give us roleplayers what we want. I dont pretend to speak for every roleplayer, but as a roleplayer I'd love to see less linear content in the game, I'd love to see more developer/GM? interaction within the game. Its silly, but the frog has become a huge roleplaying device because the Roleplayers are so starved for something to work with. And finally , yea I'd like to see an advantage for the time I've spent playing. Which is another argument for seperation. Keep in mind, there should still be pvp in the roleplay game, but I'd rather see pve characters contest only other pve players.

If they were seperated I could play my roleplay character when I felt like it, and if i wanted to get that "twitch" feel I could hop into a truly PVP only character and enjoy that.

Nice post. That one was valid I do disagree with your last 2 paragraphs, but for reasons that are obvious. This game caters to "people" not "person".

Are you suggesting I'm the only one who wants things to be the way I'd like them to be? I mean, I dont claim to speak for anyone else, but who wouldnt like to see less linear content, and more ingame "gm/dev" involvement to kind of 'flesh out the world"? At least among those that give a damn about anything beyond pvp only play.

Edit, sorry, forgot thanks

That would depend entirely on if the game in question had a plateu for the amount of skill a player could learn or master or if it was more of an unasailable peak, where the peaks of each player are judged differently.
That would depend entirely on how well the players learn over time, the sampling of players they go up against, and the quality of the opponents. Two guys that sit down and play against each other again and again for hours every day does not neccacarially make them really good chess players. Either of them could also be surprised by a new person that they aren't accustomed to playing against as well.

We could all play chess instead.

Hello again everyone, as the OP, I feel like it's my responsibility to again step in and attempt to make a point or two. I completely agree that the definition of grind varies on who you talk to. Some people may have found the story in GW very entertaining while others may have thought of it as "Stupid boring grind scenes I keep having to watch because noobs won't skip the cs." At the same time, one may also find replaying their favorite parts of the game excessively really fun, while others look at it like "Ohhh...GRIND! Why should I spend hours playing that same level just to get Oath Shot, I wanna spirit spam now dammit!" I can't say what's right or wrong, because the word "grind" is simply a slang that is interpreted differently by any given person.

Funny enough, the Prima Guild Wars game guide defines "grinding" as: "The practice of staying in the same general area killing the same monster (or doing the same task) over and over to earn EXP rather than participating in quests. It can also refer to exclusively killing monsters to level."

From what I gathered, most people who feel that GW forces grind are mostly concerned with unlocking skills for PvP. The official stratedgy guide definition of grind deals with it only in relation to EXP. No one seems to be having much of a problem reaching the max lvl or getting loads of EXP from what I noticed. This just goes to show that no one is really on the same page to what grind exactly is (and that the stratedgy guide is more confused than we are). So for those that keep saying, "Yes, duh, games can not have grind, put down your Pokemon game and go play chess" I ask that you try to work with me on the definition of grind. When I made my origional post, it was directed to people who used the word "grind" to basically desribe the tedious and repetitive aspects of the game. I tried to argue that repetition is a part of every game, just as it's a part of everyday life. And it was funny that chess was mentioned, because back in the day I used to play it on a semi-daily basis. What I did to practice was set up scenarios and work them out in order to try to find ways to counter each move. To you, this may not seem like grind, but the over-all feeling of just going along with it for nothing more than getting an edge is still there.

Which brings me to where many have stated that gaining skill through gameplay isn't grind, as where gaining in-game stats or items is. I'm not going to argue definitions with anyone, all I did was look at the core feelings that the word implied. If you play something through over and over, you will have leverage over someone who hasn't. This could result from in-game benefits, or your skill level increasing(pertaining only to this level/area of the game). Back when I played Nintendo's Super Mario Series, I would play through the game frequently, and of course I could pretty much automaticially play through the beginning stages of the game. It wasn't because I was really that great at the game, but more that I knew where everything was and exactly what to do, through hours upon hours of playing these levels.

So to sum things up, the main disagreement we seem to be having is due to the lack of a solid definition for what exactly grind is supposed to mean. The question I asked in the origional post can not be definately answered. I think in the end it's all up to each persons playing style. Some people think that what some say is "grind" is actually a key part in the game itself, while others think that "grind" is what lousy players do you try to win because they have more free time than skill. And I suppose most fall somewhere in the middle. To me, I feel like I asked this forum a question that by myself I could not answer. But through reading each and every response, I feel satisfied with the understanding I have come to with those I was irritated with. Thanks again for all who have shared their views on the subject <3 <3 <3

Why do you think the more expensive armour than 1.5k Droknar's Forge doesn't give any bonusses?

Because it's NOT meant to be a grind game.

Anet just added the more expensive armours for the idiots who like solo farming expensiver items so they can brag about it to their so called friends.

You have to examine the why of the replay, instead of the bypdroduct. Few people i know play a game and leave it before they have achieved an acceptable level of mastery within it. This does assume they enjoyed the game in the first place of course. Then you have to examine why they are commenting about the time spent to achieve something within the game. This is why i believe that the character gains is the tangible corrolation with the use of the word "grind". I have never heard anyone speak of a "grind" in relationship towards player skill before this thread. The "grind" is always something complained about after mastery of the game occured. People that havent mastered the game, wouldnt know how to judge the time spent versus what is gained as the focus is still inward on learning instead of outward on aquisition. This is typically why the first play through is the longest, as the player learns and explores areas and options, while the replays shave off radical amounts of time skipping over unneccary parts.

I think the biggest n00b mistake is to think that you need to play a skill game to be good in playing a skill game. You can play CS for 1000h and yet someone who just installed it and played it for 5h will pwn you to hell and back, and do you know why? Hes UT champion, and just had 5h to learn the quirks of CS. Sure, he wont stand a chance against the current champions, because they have more game-specific knowledge, but the from good downwards, everything is fair game.

Same in chess. If your good at math, and thinking in general, your good in chess. Someone who plays it for ages may know the patterns better then you, but there is no way you can tell wether you will be able to beat someone who just started playing 1 week ago. The ability to win comes from your own intelligence (brain etc), and not from the time you spent moving chess pieces around. What confuses most people is that playing chess increases your ability to play the game (depends on the quality of the oponent of course), but so does reading a book about chess, or just figuring out totally unrelated logic puzzles.

People now will claim that RPGs need the time spent playing mechanic, and then totally forget that we are talking about pvp access. You started weak in BGII, and grew in power, but that was the game! That was part of the fun. last time i checked, there was no reason to be more powerfull besides fun. In pvp games, you need to have the max powerlevel so the skill comparison / "game" actually means anything. You cant be better then someone in playing a singleplayer game. Sure you beat it in 10h and it took me 100h, but i had more fun then you so i TOTALLY PWNED YOU PLAYING BGII. HAHA N00b. Um.

not to argue a silly point, but chess has nothing to do with math.

15k, not 1.5k

Droknar's Armor is 1.5k, he was using it as a point of reference for the armor more expensive than it.

Want a grind free experience? Look no further than ANY AND ALL rts or fps games.

The part you're missing is that THIS WAS NEVER SUPPOSED TO BE just another mmo or rpg.

This was sold to us as something special. We were told BY THE DEV'S that it would be grind free. We didn't just pull that out of thin air. When we complain about grind in a PvP centered game (again look at other PvP centered games like shooters and rts's) it's BECAUSE we were promised many many times that this one would be different. This one was going to be "skill over time".

/cry

Look at what type of game it is. Not what you expected it to be, but what it actually is. Its not a FPS, and its not an RTS. I'm so tired of this crying about supposed grind in this game. If you think this is grind then you have no idea what grind actually is. Besides this skill over time played moaning is so old and its not even valid. Its not hard to get all skills unlocked for a character. You take that character to pvp, and guess what, if you've got that character with all his skills unlocked, you can use the pvp only version to adjust that character as rapidly as anyone else. Thus, no individual character has a supreme advantage over you. Yes, it does take some, (very very very very little by comparison to other mmo's) time to make a character ready for PVP, but once you've made that character ready, its purely skill over time played. Somone could have been playing for 4 months, and if you take 2 weeks to unlock all a characters skills, take that one character into pvp, and out perform that other guy, and your team wins, guess what, thats skill over time. You want it all on a platter and instant access and FPS sytle, where you can type /kill and have a new character... Sorry you didnt buy a FPS. I hear Quake 4 is gonna be on the xbox360, maybe you should look into that.


That having been said, I'm all for UAS, and then the removal of people like you from the Roleplay game.

Edit, forgot to mention, where were all the people crying for skill over time when I was talking about the state of the introductory arenas....Nowhere. In fact, the most common arguement for the abuse of noob arenas is "I worked hard" to get a character thru the game once already and have earned the right to wear droks and bring elites, and if thats not an argument for time over skill I dunno what is. That says something, I know what I think it says but I'll leave that judgement to everyone for themselves.

This ridiculous thread was answered on the very first reply.

For one, As much as the "grindwhiners" out there want this game to be teamfortress, or counterstrike or whatever, its not an FPS. So comparisons to teamfort are not valid in my opinion. I do hope that they give you all what you want so that those of us who find repetitve pvp over and over its own special kind of grind can get you out of what could be the finest roleplay game on the net.

For two, FF is a poor comparison as well because its not massively multiplayer. And before you hop, quick like a bunny to type to me that neither is GW, the fact that you only team with 8 players max at a time does not prevent this game from being massively multiplayer because its set in a massively mutliplayer world. Thinking back to other mmos, there were limits to the size of individual groups in those games as well.

It's a game. A game is a game is a game. And irrespective of the genre, grind is a poor gameplay mechanic used to bolster gameplay time without having to do all that pesky developing of new maps and content.

So kind. Thanks for the support.

You don't like PvP? You're not forced to do it. You're not forced to do it to advance, it's not a grind. The only forced PvP in the game is one Random Arena match which can be AFK'd, since whether you win or lose doesn't matter. Just go do something else for the five minutes that match lasts. Oh, how I wish they gave us that option with the PvE, on the billionth time through.

And drop the attitude. "I want you out of my game," isn't an attitude conducive to helping the community, now, is it?

For one, Guild Wars has a terrible story with no ingame support for roleplaying. If by roleplaying you mean "beating up monsters", then Guild Wars has among the worst monster AI I've seen, and it's the same for every monster in the game. There's nothing to achieve in the monster-bashing section of the game, and the difficulty is nil. It's anything but the finest; even EverQuest, a game that's... eight years old, I believe, outdoes Guild Wars on that front.

Arenanet doesn't think Guild Wars is an MMO. I think they're more than qualified to make that statement. The only parts that really qualify for typical MMO status are the towns and outposts, and if that alone was enough to slap the MMO label on Guild Wars then Diablo 2 would be an MMO because of it's lobbies. The most "Massively Multiplayer" parts of Guild Wars are the 8vs8+ fights in the Tomb of Primeval Kings that you so despise. Guild Wars is not an MMO. This is not a bad thing.

sigh.

One more day and we will see wether people will laugh at you for your pathetic defense of "early days" grind that got wiped away after the awesome pvp update, or wether people will laugh at you for playing a "pvp" game that no sane pvp player will take seriously

I think its a compliment to Ensign and co. and not to GW when i say that i would respect them even if they continue playing GrindWars