Reason why nerfing solo monks would be silly

I see more and more debate over the solo farmers issue. Solo eles or solo warriors are not the main targets though, as people seem to usually bash on solo/invincible monks.

I'll be more than happy to show that most of the common assumptions against solo monks are controversial, if not, in some cases, totally false.

1- "It takes nothing to build an invincible monk and solo everything"

I won't go into detail here, but everyone knows that 4-5 superior monk runes are needed. That means a lot of money to start with. That could mean buying a second armor set as well, because if you want to play any average PvE with guildies or friends you'll need to change your gear again.
Secondly, you can't solo everything, you can solo some type of monsters, because too many health degen conditions, some interrupts, or just one enchantment stripper will take you down in a few seconds.

2- "It's too easy killing monsters that way, too fast, and you can get an incredible amount of gold/items

Too easy? This assumption, which is probably the most abused one, is contradictory in itself. First off, farming as a 105 monk does take some skill. We're not talking about a huge amount of skill, but it's different from farming Tengus. Killing 5 ataxes at the same time requires some timing and a high degree of attention, if not, in some cases, a bit of luck. It becomes fairly easy when you're used to it, but you still have to actively play your character in a decent way, while farming as people know it usually takes some robotic clicks here and there on the keyboard, rezone and repeat.
Therefore, here is the contradiction: it becomes quite easy killing monster this way, but to do it fast and get an incredible amount of gold/items you'll need skill, experience and attention. The more you kill fast and get huge amounts of loot, the less easy it is.

3- They generate inflation

This assumption is laughable at best. Did anyone check the price of ectos right now, instead of screaming like crybabies over the fact that you can't find monks to play in the UW because they solo it and they're meanie and unfair? The rare material trader was selling them for 14-15k two weeks ago or so, and now they're sold for roughly 9k. You can buy them from players for 8k lately. Now, if naysayers knew a bit of basic economy, they'd find that supply has increased, while demand is the same.

4- They're ruining the nature of this game: teamplay

False. Typically, the 105 monk has already finished the game at least twice, owns a good amount of money even before starting soloing seriously, and still plays with friends-guildies often, because let's say it, long farming sessions are terribly boring.
Not to mention the fact that the solo monk build is open to a huge number of tweaks, can be modified and customized in many ways. It has already generated a lot of valuable discussions over skills, cooldown times, and such. It's a little bit different from saying "play the Hell difficulty level, kill Mephisto again and again, and one day you'll have your Windforce"

In conclusion, I'm firmly convinced that most of this acid criticism comes from people who are very bad at the game or at farming in general, and bash on others for the sake of it. This game is open enough to be played and enjoyed in radically different ways, invoking the nerf bat over anything other people do and you can't do is silly.

Let me know what's your opinion on the matter.

lol. Its the number 1 most ubiquitous defense for the 105 build.

it goes like this... Blah blah blah, words words words, random insults, more words words words, complete refusal to recognize that the build is built upon the abuse of a singular overpowered and unbalanced skill, blah blah, a few more insults thrown in for good measure, and in conclusion, 'youre just mad because you cant".

Laughable.

I love people who reply like this, backing up their opinions with valid reasons. I'd ask you to show that this build is built upon the abuse of a singular overpowered skill, but I won't, because it seems evident to me you would answer in the same, naysayer way.

The reason for nerfing it is simple: ANet never, ever intended the game to be played that way. It's an exploit, albeit a clever one. The whole idea of Guild Wars is that professions should be more-or-less on a parr with each other. If only one profession using some esoteric build can solo UW then obviously something is wrong.

The definition of a valid reason is purely subjective.

Warriors can solo in many parts of the game. Eles can. Minion master Necros can give a shot at it as well. It's not only one profession using an esoteric build, and farming with skill and attention doesnt seem an exploit to me.

EDIT: valid reason, in this case, is when you actually SHOW with facts that a skill or a combo is overpowered. Since you apparently can't, you don't have a valid reason on your side. Hope I'm clear enough.

/golfclap

Excellent, although you're bound to be flamed like youre the secret ingrediant on Iron Chef for calling it what it is, an exploit, or at the very least, outside of what the devs intended.

Dont tell me I dont Know what the devs intended, I know that I dont, none of us do. That having been said, You'll never convince me they intended monks to be wearing doubled up sup runes (for the 105) and raiding one of the high end pve areas solo wielding a noob necromancer quest item (for the 55)...

Just wanted to point out that Mephisto doesn't drop Windforce

Do we really need all these "defend the 105/55" threads poping up everywhere? I felt like leaving the other one alone, as it is full of those who would do anything to keep their cash cow in the game so why bother.

Not much for me to say though, beyond that some of your logic escapes me. It is damn well easy to solo UW with your 105/55 monk, you'd have to be a complete idiot to not get it in the first few tries. Expensive? Please go farm tengu and get the runes or pay a little for your nice "out of order build".

Show me the warrior whos wearing doubled up sup runes, prior to the exploit being known NOBODY wouldve done that, anything that causes the masses to suddenly do something that nobody wouldve done before should set off alarms for those who are interested in more than what "can" be done. Aside from that show me the warrior who can solo with even 1/4 of the effectiveness as a monk in UW. And before you say that its not more profitiable in UW or whatever excuse you want to use, explain to me why it is then greneth CRAWLS with monks anytime it looks like we might be seeing favor come back to us.

as far as a reason... Its subjective, purely, I could give you a reason I consider valid, and you could say its invalid, and round and round we go, I choose not to participate in that. Say what you will about validation, I dont especially need your validation.

but the devs intended for WaMos to run low level characters to Droknar...they Intended for lvl1-9 players to be wearing end-game armor in the ascalon arena....there are better things the developers can be spending their time on.You bitch and moan about things that don't have anything to do with you...it doesn't have an bearing on your game or how you play it. It doesn't need a balance because it doesn't effect anyone but the person using it. but keep bitching and keep complaining...it's about the only thing the majority of the GW commuity is good for.

I see no problem with the build and I don't see why so many people are so upset about the 55/105 monk build. It is not like they are dominating the HoH like the recent FOTM spirit spammers are. This build is only for soloing areas where there is only melee combat involved with no fear of disenchantments. How many areas like that exist. If you have been in UW then you know that it is a relatively small portion of that map. OOOhhhhhhh the monks are ruining the game for everyone. I want to build one of these characters just inspite of you whiners. I have finished the game twice now and am looking to find a way to buy fissure armor. How else can you get that without farming somewhere? So the monk found a way to do it. Finally, there is ONE spot that the monk can farm effectively and some people have a problem with that. I ask you, Where do you farm? How about I start a petition to nerf your build and/or spot so you can't farm there anymore.
There are more important issues to deal with in this GAME than the "invinci monk" build, like playing it and having fun with your friends.
Next topic please.

LoL, you cite those things as if I've said once that those things are fine....Get a grip and stop trolliing after me like a lost puppydog. I've never once said I agree with running, and You know damn well how I stand on the sorry state of things in the introductory pvp areas. In fact you trolled after me on that one completely off topic about the 105 build and I had to ask you to ether contribute or PM me, and you did neither. STOP TROLLING. And I'm not sure what the point of half your post being a complaint about the community is...

Yes, I know, it was an example.


I see there's an universal wrath against uw solo monks. I wonder how many of you have actually tried farming the uw. It's not an arrogant wonder, just a wonder. It takes time, and on an accurate calculation, I doubt it's more profitable than other farming spots, not to mention the fact that you always have to pay 1k to enter and you can even be killed when out of luck (now tell me who gets killed by the tengus).

i get killed by tengus......

If it wasnt more profitable, monk runes wouldnt be 20k. If it wasnt more profitable, nobody could sell that piece of shit necro focus item for 20k. There are plenty of other places a monk could solo if protbond would fixed, the problem with that is all the people who jumped on the bandwagon dont have to wait for someone else to figure out an effective farm again.

So another thread of cyclical arguments starts.

If the devs nerf the build, great. If the devs don't nerf the build, great. People will continue playing how they like, if they want to play the 105 road, so be it.

That's part of the problem, I think. Ideally, the prices for all the superior runes for every class should at least be in the same ballpark. (or available at all at least!)

This can't be said of the runes, however.


When everyone flocks to a certain build, it means there is imbalance. And ultimately, this will indeed affect PvE. True, many 105 players NOW may have the played the game a couple times already, but what about new players? They will read about the invinci-monk and use it. Over time, that means less variety of classes to PuG with.


There is nothing wrong with exploiting the imbalance, but it's obvious it's there. In the couple months I've been playing, I've already seen a drastic increase in M/x. Over time, this will only get worse.

What proof do you offer to back this up? I have read alot of the information anet has released and to be honest I think this is exactly what they had in mind.

This isn't a build that can solo and kill anyone and everything everywhere in the world. It is a unique set of armor/items/skills that is effective in a limited scope.

Unlike most games in this genre they allow you to change professions/skills/attribute points at will, combined with only allowing 8 usable skills at a time tells me they want people to combine the skills in new/interesting ways and not have a single cookie-cutter build that can walk over the entire map killing everything.

I'm not trolling...I'm asking you to make a halfway decent argument as to how it effects you...but you'd rather call it trolling than make an attempt because the fact of it is that it doesn't effect you.

Where do you think all the hate for the W/Mo comes from? And it aint got anything to do with imbalance.

That is not exactly true. I have seen many strange things happen in this game. Folks tend to jump on the bandwagon, even if the price of admitance is high, just because they want to be a part of the new build of the moment. Monk runes are expensive because there are so many wanna be's. Does not mean that they all are good, bad, or indifferent. I would wagger if someone started a rumor that a certain build was better than the 105, and other s perpetuated this rumor, you would see a mad rush of people jumping on acquiring the items needed to make this fake build work.

So presumably people using bots in PvE doesn't bother you, either? After all it doesn't effect you. You can justify any number of cheats using that kind of warped logic.

Sigh, troll some more, in case you dont know, one definition of trolling is following someone around on the board constantly trying flame, or start verbal hostility. You're guilty, might as well just be proud of it.

First, Halfway decent arguement is a subjective term. What I say is an excellent arugement you will say is invalid, and vice versa.

Second, I'm not going to argue about how it effects me because I reject the notion that it has to effect me to be an abuse. I've said this to you before. And I'm telling you now to never expect me to argue how this effects me because it would validate the very idea that it has to effect someone else to be an abuse, which I reject entirely.

Find something new to troll me about.

no...I don't care in the least if you want to use a bot. it doesn't effect me

Well with the change to NR that is too come soon, I am pretty sure with a little togling of the build Monks will be able to solo further in UW. Perhaps I am mistaken but take OoB for instance and you will counter the degen that NR will cause to your energy. Perhaps someone could show me if this was impossible, but from the way I look at it now, Monks have even more terrain open to them for farming.

It goes like this: If you think it's overpowered, then make your own monk to do it. . .I mean really, it takes what 2 days for level 20?

1) I have no idea who you are or even remotely remember conversing with you in the past...ever

2) if it doesn't effect you it shouldn't matter. It in no way changes the way you play the game. It's bitching to hear yourself bitch. If it were causing some sort of trouble for you ingame then you'd have every right to bitch about it(and I'd back you and say that it needed to be nerfed)...but it doesn't

WTF? We don't do it becuase its overpowered, get your head out of D2. This isn't even an argument, its just a shallow "we can do it, join us" idea that makes me mad.

Also, I'm going to point out a few flaws in both sides of the arguements. This is not directed at anyone in particular, but it seems to be repeated so bloody often.

"ArenaNet never intended it to be this way and it's an exploit"

For one, you don't know what they intend. And two, if it was an actual exploit, it would have been fixed within hours. Augury Rock for example.

"Let us play the way we want to"

This isn't really a counter arguement, it's more along the lines of "Don't take my candy away from me!" while you're ignoring your dentist trying to get those cavities out.

"Too many people are using it"

Well too many people are using Mo/Me's, W/Mo's and E/Mo's. 36 different class combinations and too many people are playing the same thing as there's lots of players in the game. LETS NERF THEM ALL!

"Who cares if it's an exploit? It's not effecting you"

Yeah well, that exploit in Augury Rock didn't effect me either.

"ArenaNet didn't intend for something to be overpowered and invincible"

Of course they didn't. I fail to see how this is invincible though, or overpowered.

I'd say more on the anti nerfers, but they seem to be repeating themselves with less varied 'arguements'. I really don't see an arguement yet on one side or another that holds any water or logic.

thank you sekkira for pointing out that it's not an exploit...i've grown tired of doing that myself.

I don't think he pointed that out at all. Looks more like he solidly showed the flaws in both arguments while mainting no real bias to either view.

This has happened on almost a regular basis since GW launched. Someone discovers a new build. Someone counters the aforementioned new build. Everyone uses the counter build. GW is a good thing, because ANet is allowing players to be smart, and make the game for themselves. I use a W/Mo, does that mean I'm a noob, or I follow trends? No, chances are, I use my character differently in PvP than half the people who play W/Mo. With the huge amount of skills, I doubt it will be long before somebody finds a new way to solo UW. So really, rather than complain about it, it seems a much better strategy to try to find a new UW build. As soon as you start crying nerf on classes, the game becomes no different than any MMO on the market. If you don't believe me, just look at Star Wars Galaxies.

Warrior/Monks are fun to play. I used one for a bit and had a nice time soloing through ascalon and having a general kick ass time.

1. So following this argument, the rich get richer.
2. There's people liberally using 105 monks (and fiercely defending them) who had an incredible amount of trouble with missions like Thirsty River or Thunderhead Keep (this is judging from their own forum posts just before the 105 monk became popular - won't name names, but their desperate pleading posts are out there). So I'm not buying the idea that they take any skill, since it's clear even someone who can't face the simple challenges of PvE missions has no trouble using them.
3. It's rather upsetting how this argument is still used after it's been refuted so thoroughly. What happened two weeks ago? The traders got updated to give fair prices for items. What was causing the high ecto price before that? The fact that nobody in their right mind sold the ectoplasm to the trader. Yet the 105 monks are lording ArenaNet's change to the trader as their own prowess. Anyway, check the 'farming does not cause inflation' thread for much more eloquent refutals to this.
4. This is a solo build that doesn't really play nice with other people along (they'd have to stay way, way back for safety), so I can't see how it can -not- negatively influence teamwork. I've seen people completely unfamiliar with the game beg around for the -50 health icon, people clueless enough to think that the monk will grant them utter invincibility throughout the board, who clearly didn't play through the game yet. You could say they are intending to farm with this build for cash like everyone else, but that's not out of boredom or anything - it's because they think wealth is the most important thing in the game, because their R/Mo isn't generating squat in gold, and they think they need that storm bow. GW players simply aren't responsible enough for a build like this to be possible.

ah, indeed my mistake ) I had you confused with another of my many "fans".

Yes youve said this quite a few times, and I still disagree that "who an abuse effects" determines wether or not it is an abuse and needs fixing. I'm not going to debate this with you.


I dunno that I agree with the idea that anet not getting around to fixing protbond yet means its not an abuse. Perhaps they are tied up in the new update. Perhaps they are tryin to address an even deeper root case than the fact that protbond needs fixing. Protbond's abusability is the root of the 105 build, but the root of the intense desire to solo is greed, which means that Anet should make it more profitable to group then to solo, to promote grouping. Perhaps they are doing that before they take away the monkroaches lollypop.

that's a fact of life....I see no reason that we run the GW economy as a comunist entity. But that's neither here nor there...the rich get richer because they the money to invest in the things that bring wealth...that's the way it is/was/always will be.

I had to do Thunderhead Keep 5 times to get through it....you know as well as I do that Thunderhead Keep is a noob trap as well as the most pivotal mission in regards to player teamwork and skill. Basing a single players skill on how effectively they can get random noobs to work together isn't the greatest idea.

The idea that solo monks (or any solo player for that matter) is changing the economy is proposterous. There is no active supply/demand system...there never was.


Anyone that uses this build outside of solo instances obviously doesn't know what they are doing. This build only works when you are by yourself or with a team looking to have you tank. Otherwise it's useless.



Elistan: Promoting grouping would be the best step for everyone and absolutely the best fix to the game. I, however, would still play the majority of the quests solo...

amen way to point this out

That reminds me of something else. I've encountered people in Ice Caves of Sorrow at level 14, they didn't even know what the desert was. I've encountered people in the desert who firmly believed that the only way to get around was running, fighting through is unheard of and completely impossible. I have seen one of my own guildmates (unfortunately) rushed through to Gates Of Kryta without knowing what is going on. I have shown them the right way but it doesn't solve the problem at hand.

Yes, you guessed it, Runners. I can understand and tolerate people wanting to get through the game after being through it once before as it is 'tedious' (although I disagree with the concept. How do you learn to manage a team as a healer when your monk is rushed through? How to you learn how to effectively learn skills, how to go about using them and what situations they'd be effective in when your mesmer is run to Droknar's?). These people are ruining the game for the new players. There is so much of it, that any outpost you step into, you will find people offering to run to whatever the next place is for such and such amount of money.

The newbies feel that the only way to get places is being rushed, and they never learn anything by doing so other than money will get you to the next place in the game. And then it cycles back to us and you get these newbies in the Desert, Southern Shiverpeaks, Ring of Fire clogging things up and making normally easy missions harder than they should be because they don't have any idea on how to play the game.

I mean seriously? Everyone is bitching about this 105 build (which I use myself and do not want to see it nerfed personally but try to keep that out of arguements defending it) ruining the game. It's causing very little impact compared to this influx of runners and runnees.

Somehow I doubt that this is the case. Most if not all of us can and do farm well. We simply don't jump on a bandwagon full of idiots who truly don't know how to farm.

The way the actual things works is this:
Thos who can't let go of their cash cow suck at farming and/or much of the game ingeneral. These people are unable to farm with any other character as it is far to difficult than mashing buttons and are incapable of letting go of their get rich quick build.