Fixed Ether Renewal

This thread is to to discuss ways to fix a very over-powered skill -- Ether
Renewal. It's not about discussing why people do/don't want to nerf,
how to counter ER, or anything else. It's about listing options to make
ER less abusable for smiting builds, and more attractive to primary
elementalists. If you don't agree that ER is broken and/or don't have
constructive thoughts on the topic, please post somewhere else.

I guess it's also time to collect Yes/No support for this post. If you've
previously posted; rather than post again, could you just edit your post
to put in a Yea/Nea and if you have time, write a small story that explains
why you feel strongly about your vote. Thanks.

...

As I see it, Ether Renewal is too powerful since it favors a quickly-cast
spells, rather than the more traditional longer-casting and mana
expensive Elementalist skills. The specific problems with Ether
Renewal include:

1. It favors quick-casting spells, preferably ones /w minimal recharge.
It is far superior when used /w protection monk spells than it is with
spells like Flare or longer cast spells like Maelstrom.

2. It mixes in health restoration when the primary goal of the spell
seems to be 'ether' (energy) recovery. It is already powerful enough
in the energy recovery without including the health restoration mix-in.

3. As compared to other energy stealing/recovery spells it is slightly
overpowered (by about a factor of 5 for smiters); and it is a tad
underpowered for those casting high-energy long-cast spells.

The goal of this suggestion is to make ER more attractive to the primary
elementalist and less attractive to smite protection spell spam. To
derive an effective skill description, let's totally remove the health
recovery aspect from the skill. Its secondary effect and it really
complicates determining an appropriate ballance.

Currently, this spell provides 4en per enchantment per spell cast; for
a smiter using 5en spells, this is an 80% return of spell energy per
enchantment. If you assume 3 enchantments plus the ER itself, you
have a 320% recovery of energy spent. During a 10 second period,
you can spam 5en Draw Conditions alternated with Reversal of Fortune
once per second -- or 10 times. That is 50en spent, and thus 150
energy returned (160 - 10en cost for EN). So, this has generated an
average of at least 3-5en per second (see below for a chart if you
don't get this).

For a base-line spell appraisal; let's compare this to Energy Drain and
Mantra of Recovery. At 12 inspiration, ED steals 18 energy for 5en in 1sec.
Given a recharge of 20s, the energy recovered via drain is about 13/20,
or .75 energy per second. For Mantra of Recovery, the rate is a bit
higher. With a cast charge of 10, with 30 returned in 20s, you get 20en
in 20s or about 1 energy per second. Both of these skills have drawbacks.
Energy Drain is punishing, but it is also conditional -- you can drain
someone with 0 energy and get 0 return. Like Ether Renewal, Mantra
of Recovery is also an enchantment, but unlike ER, if the enchantment is
removed at any time before the 20s, you lost your entire (not partial)
investment. Therefore, it seems like the trend for elite energy recover is
in the neighborhood of 1en per second; each method having a plus or
minus depending upon risk and side-effects.

Let's verify this 1en per second "average" for these sorts of spells. In the
Necromancer line, the closest equivalent is Offering of Blood. With a
sacrifice of 10% health, you gain 18-5 or 13 energy every 15 seconds.
This is slightly less than 1 energy per second -- more or less equivlaent
to Energy Drain or Mantra of Recall. In ED, you can lose your investment
if your opponent lacks energy. For MoR, you can lose your investment if
someone removes your enchantment. For this particular spell, you can't
lose the energy -- but you pay a price in health. Regardless, this energy
return is far far less than 3-5en per second of Ether Renewal. Either these
energy management skills need a serious buff, or Ether Renewal needs a
leash put on it.

So, what are the reasons for why a Energy Storage elite should be higher
than 1en per second? First, it is from more of a support line, where
inspiration has many more direct usage skills; so let's say this is worth
a bit more energy per second. Second, this skill depends upon the caster
having active enchantments. Perhaps these additional conditions should
make an upper end of 2en per second?

Therefore, given the 30 seconds between casting Ether Renewal,
the energy return should be about 60 energy. Let's assume that a given
elementalist has 2-3 enchants on them (Fire Attunement, Conjure Flame,
or Aura of Restoration). When you mix-in this enchantment, that is 3-4
enchantments or about 15-20 energy per enchantment. During the 10
seconds of cast time, an Elementalist can easily get off two 25 en spells,
perhaps 5 10en spells, or perhaps 7-9 5en spells. Let's say this is a total
energy usage of 50en over that 10 sec. This amounts to a 30-40% return
on energy per enchantment per energy point spent; they spent 50en
and get back 15-20 per enchantment.


Fixed Ether Renewal {Elite} - Enchantment Spell

For 10 seconds, each time you cast a spell, you gain 10-30% of the
energy cost of the spell back for each Enchantment you have on you.


So how nerfed is this?

Suppose your a standard el/mo smiter, with Zealot's Fire, Balthazar's, and
Aura of Restoration on you (4 enchantments once you add ER). Further
suppose you spam 9 RoF/Draw spells during that 10s (.25 cast plus .75
after-cast). You currently get 4*4*9 or 144 energy back (or 4.5 en/sec).
Under this proposal, you'd get 9*5*4*.3 or 54 energy return. It's a
serious, serious nerf to a smiting monk. However, 54-10 is 44 energy;
and 44 energy / 30 second recharge is a 1.5 energy per second. This
is much more in-line with other elite energy management techniques,
about a 50% bonus for carrying those enchantments.

Suppose, on the other hand, your an Fire Elementalist who uses a Mark
of Rodgort (3s,25en), Searing Heat (3s, 25en), Immolate (1s,10en)
sequence. Under the current ER, you get 3*4*4 or 48 energy, which
amounts to a 1.6 energy per second. Under this new proposal, you'd get
(25+25+10)*4*.3 or 72 energy; or about 2.3 energy per second.

In summary, this proposal is a decent buff to existing Elementalist
skill-lines, but a serious nerf to the broken smiting monk build. See
below for an alternative proposal which is less sensitive to the number
of enchantments you have on you.

...

You should not be comparing it to Mantra, as mantra is a stance and thus comes with all the advantages of stances: only 1 (maybe 2?) skills exist in the game that can counter a stance, assuming your foe knows you are in one. Can be turned on instantly, even while you are performing another action...etc. Mantra also does not require you to take any actions once used.

Whereas ER is subject to interruption and disenchanting. If you are running a Mesmer, why not wait for your opponent to cast ER, and then hit him with Inspired Enchantment? That would be perfect if you were actually an E/Me.

Not to mention, Mantra is a Mesmer skill and ER is a Elementalist skill. The 2 professions have different focuses and so their elites, while serving similar functions, will never be equivalent for what they do.

Ether Renewal's effect is just fine the way it is. If you really want to nerf it, just increase it's recharge time.

I'd have to disagree with the fact that ether renewal is fine the way it is. The fact is that its basically fills your entire energy pool in much less than 10 seconds. The recharge should be increased(i can't believe im saying this i am totally screwing my farming build lol). Increasing the time would totally nerf it. 60 seconds is way too long. I would say that if they changed it to 60 seconds they should increase the duration and lower the effect. 5 energy and i believe 20 health per enchantment is huge. lower it to a max of like 2 energy per enchantment and have it last like 15-20 seconds. And with ether renewal most likely the top enchantment it could be removed easily making it less effective in pvp.

ER supports elementalists perfectly as is. Shoot of your AoE, flip ER on, used little ones while the AoEs recharge, repeat. It's PERFECT on my hydromancer... can flip out Deep Freeze and Maelstrom, Ice Shards, with Water Attunement up flip on ER and Ice Spear to get most of my juice back. Big spells are almost ready now...

Why should ether renewal not give back health? I don't understand that really...... It's an energy storage skill... like aura of restoration....

Just so you know IxChel, I agree with you 100%.

90% of the tombs groups are 2 W/R or W/E, 2 E/Mo, 3 monks then A Mes/Nec or a Nec/Mes

Gets boring very fast...

Because the name of the attribute is Energy Storage, not Health Storage?

Seriously though, all it does is unbalance the skill further because it literally leaves Ether Renewal with no drawbacks - you're unlikely to take more damage than you're healing, especially if combined with Aura of Restoration. The only counter at all is enchantment removal, but since you can regenerate so fast using it, it's more effective for foes to simply wait until the spell wears off to attack. Personally, I think that any skill whose counter strategy is "pick a different target" is overpowered.

BTW, Mantra of Recall, despite its name, is an Enchantment, not a Stance. Its drawback is that the enemy can remove it, most likely when you're already at near-full energy and therefore not going to gain much benefit from it. Similarly, Offering of Blood requires health, Ether Prodigy has so many drawbacks it's rarely worth using, Energy Drain requires a target with energy, Elemental Attunement requires you to not be interrupted and has a huge recharge, etc etc etc. They all have drawbacks - except Ether Renewal.

FWIW, Ix, I think that's a pretty creative way to fix the skill to have its intended effect without ruining it like simply reducing the numbers would.

Nerf the good skills until Flare is good in the Tombs, and then nerf Flare. Is that your ideal GW environment?

By definition, a balanced environment contains no 'good' skills (or all 'good' skills, depending on how you choose to look at it), so... yes.

Actually -- it is that good. Let's give you the benifit of the doubt and
say you can only spam 9 reversal/draw spells in that 10 seconds -- the
numbers are still very impressive, even when you take the energy
recovery and average it over the 30 second cooldown period.

At the minimum you're running 2 enchancements, Ether Renewal and
Zealot's Fire. Even at that level, you're already at 2 energy per second
regeneration -- that's 2x as nice as Offering of Blood or Energy Drain.

The more common build is ER, ZF, and Aura of Restoration. This is 3.2
energy per second -- 3x as nice as Offering of Blood or Energy Drain.

If you add in Kenetic Armour -- even at zero Earth -- you're talking about
4.46 energy per second. Sure, 1/4 your skill bar is now enchancements;
however, you've now reached a point where you can't possibly run out
of energy -- not even for a split second.

With Res Signet and Draw Conditions and Reveral of Fortune,
you've still got one more slot to fill -- Balthazar's Aura fits the bill. If
youcast it on yourself right before your Ether Renewal, it will bring you
up to 5 active enchantments, or 6 energy per sec. But we don't need
to argue about how absurd it gets from here. The skill is already
broken at 3 enchantments, where the energy return is clearly 3x what
an equivalent spell from any other line will give you.

ether renewal is rather overpowered, its pretty much been the only elite on my ele's skill bar since she capped it... I have expirimented with other random things like thunderclap (sucks) and uhh... well, thats about it, and I only tried for an hour or so today for when I was ele/nec capping virulence...

Assuming you want to give "around" one energy per second for the Elite
slot and that you want to give a "bonus" to those who carry more than
one enchantment, perhaps there is another skill reification.

Let's start by modifying Elemental Attunement. EA lasts for twice as long
(22.5 seconds every 30 second period), and gives you a 50% return on
your spell cost, but it is limited to only elemental spells. So, it would be
reasonable to have ER give you a 105% return in the 10s window:
effectively a "free cast". Further, EA has an additional bonus -- it can work
with any skill. So, we have less skill restrictions, and the ability for
this skill to support a "spike" for 10s. Stratigically, energy now is
more valueable then energy later -- so the 105% in 10s is more valueable
than 50% over 22s. Therefore, some sort of "price" needs to be paid.
That price is to scale the energy return based on the number of active
enchants. Furthermore, for balance with skills from other lines, you
want the "center" of the energy regeneration to be in-line with the
other energy-based skills; about 1 energy per second.


Fixed Ether Renewal #2 {Elite} - Enchantment Spell

For 10 seconds, each time you cast a spell, you gain 20-60% of the
energy cost of the spell back, plus another 15% of the spell cost for
each enchantment on you.


To help visualize the proposal, here is a chart that assumes 50en will
be spent during the 10s period and that the energy gain is averaged
over the 30 second cooldown period.

As it so happens, with 3 enchantments, this proposal has identical impact
as the first proposal. The smiters get a really huge nerf, and the fire
elementalist who uses big spells gets a decent buff. The smiter gets
9*5*1.2 or 54 energy (same as before), and the Elementalist gets
(25+25+10)*1.2 or 72 energy back (also the same).

The main difference with this proposal is that it's more generous when you
only have 2 enchantments up, and a bit less generous when you have 4 or
more enchantments up. The first proposal is both harsher to those who
are only carrying two enchantments, and more open to abuse if you've got
monks spamming enchantments to build a huge stack. Therefore, as a
whole -- although it is a bit more complicated -- I prefer the second option.

In summary; for the casting to be "free", you have to have two additional
enchantments (beyond ER) -- above that you get a nice return for your
diligence . You can still get a serious amount of energy with more
enchantments, but the higher you stack them enchantments, the harder
the upkeep will be and the more painful rend will be. This alternaitve
addresses:

1. the use of many low-energy spells vs a few high-energy spells

2. giving a bonus for enchantments, an incentive to carry more than
two enchantments, but nothing uber "godly" for 3+

Why not give ER the same "drawback" that EA has? Would this not remove much of its abuse with smite, if not entirely? This would probably be a significant nerf but would give the ele lines something be used with.

Since my idea is somewhat severe, I think I like version #2 the most.

Sounds great to me. So sick of smiters.... (I'm tempted to make one, but I'm not really into pressing 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2 over and over, doesn't really appeal to me)

I'd rather ether prodigy be worth using, instead of just making ether nenewal crap too.

Ok. During 10 second period you cna only get off 5 ice shards since
the cast time is 1.0 and you have a .75 aftercast. Likewise you can
only get-off Deep Freeze and Maelstrom together in a 10s period.

Let's break this down into a table /w 3 cases, based on the number
of enchantments (including ER):

So, yes, it's a nerf with proposal #2 as is. You're short about 20 energy
per 30 second cycle, even if you switch to using freeze+maelstrom
during the 10s period. This difference is about 0.6en per second.

Even at 3 enchantments (2 plus ether renewal), you're at 1.4en per second;
this is about 2x more energy per second than Energy Drain or Offering
of Blood. If you buffed the chart 30%, you'd get that .6en/sec, but you'd
then make ER about 3x more effective than ED or OB. Personally, I think
having to have two additional enchantments and the setup is probably
worth 2x the energy per second, since its a good amount of stuff to get
right. However, i'm not sure if it's worth 3x your average energy
management elite. Your thoughts?

As a related thought -- Ensign has been stating for some time now that
Elementalist spells, as a whole, are a good deal less powerful than they
should be (or cost a bit too much). Since Ether Renewal allows you to
use a skill ballanced for Elementalist skills /w skills from other lines,
I think this discrepancy is showing up here. Perhaps your .6en/sec more
accurately reflects the lack-of-power that elementalist skills have relative
to their energy/time costs? Perhaps the energy per Elementalist spell
could be reduced some; and coorespondingly the energy storage bonus
could be reduced a bit -- this would keep the balance between the
elementalist skills, but bring them more in-line with the power vs cost
ratios of other skill-lines.

lol kinda funny how u talk about energy gaining etc, personally i just think it is a great way to get energy, and as mentioned before i think changing the recharge time is a great thing to do, all i want is that they dont nerf it as bad as Protective bond, caus that is overreacting

The more powerful a spell is, the more easy it should be able to stop it. This spell is hell of powerful and it is hell of easy to stop. So it might be overpowered, but it is not out of balance. Therefore NO nerfing needed.

Yet another player who's using a mind-numbing smiter and doesn't want his precious build balanced?

Anyway, this thread is about fixing or improving E.R which has been shown to be much more powerful than other energy skills. Again, and again the fact that you can strip it doesn't make this skill balanced. If you disagree with this, feel free to use the search button and to review other threads discussing about the balance of E.R and to bump them with new arguments. Please keep this thread on topic (improved Ether Renewal) instead of posting stupid statements you cannot backup.

W/R in tomb ? Can you say me what is their skills setting please ?
I read a lot of threads here from high ranking guild who said W/R are the worst /X for a warrior and Tiger fury is useless compaired to frenzy.
Is it for frozen soil ? but rangers are better for using spirit.
I believed that W/Mo were allmighty in pvp...
Thanks

If ER had the same drawback as EA, that being working only on ele skills, I would not see the skill be bad, its true much of the ele lines suck, but you can still spam several spells. Perhaps if this was to happen the ele lines would really need a buff to them.

Obviously you don't know the first thing about balance, but you do know that if more than two people use a build in one day its clearly overpowered. Go read the M:tg articles that are frequently posted relating to why there has to be "good" skills and why there has to be "bad" skills.

Quote:

Fixed Ether Renewal #2 {Elite} - Enchantment Spell For 10 seconds, each time you cast a spell, you gain 20-60% of the energy cost of the spell back, plus another 15% of the spell cost for each enchantment on you.

/Signed.

so.. you want to modify an elementalist spell because of what it does to/with a monk spell? better idea.. have Ether Renewal only work with elemental spells

Maybe you should pay more attention. You asked if that was the "ideal" environment... not if that environment was attainable.

Anyway, back on topic. IMO "balancing" skills by limiting them to a certain class only implies one (or both) of two things:
-The skill is overpowered
-The class's skills are underpowered

Therefore, although it is correct that making Ether Renewal work on Elementalist skills only would fix its usage, I think the better overall solution for game balance would be to adjust the power of Ether Renewal and/or Elementalist skills in general.

Elementalists are rather underpowered actually. If you took away E/Mo smiters you'd see very few Eles in the tombs, and almost none of them would be offensive.

Balanced does not mean that every skill has to be equal in power, it just means that a good ranger has to be as useful as a good warrior or a good Ele etc. To keep the M:tG analogy going, there are always going to be good decks. There are always going to be 2 or 3 decks that are the "tier 1" decks at anytime. Same as in Guild Wars. There is always going to be a few builds that are flavors of the month at any given time. That is the nature of the game, and people who complain about every one of them are absurd.

There is only a balance issue when there is a build that is so powerful that there are no other tier 1 builds. And not only are there no other tier 1 builds, its so powerful that build made specifically to shut it down can't beat it often. E/Mo smiting does not fall into this category. There are plenty of other viable builds that are just as good, not necesarily as easy to use, but still just as potent. And it is easy to shut down. Diversion + Rend Enchantments and its over. A build that has two people using Diversion and Rend will only lose to Smiters if the Smiters are head and shoulders better players than they are, in which case they deserved to win anyway.

Nature's Renewal had to be nerfed because it warped the environment to the point where you had to either play it yourself, and/or not use enchantments or hexes of your own. It forced people to use and bring skills that were only their for the purpose of living under Nature's Renewal. Smiting, however, does not do that. It forces people to use... Diversion and Rend Enchantments. Those are two skills that should have been in your builds anyway. Thus, the metagame is not warped.

I get the impression from a lot of people, including you, that your ideal vision of the game is 8v8 battles using combos no more complex than Fire Attunement and Fire spells. Any synergy between your primary and secondary profession is off limits as well.

Personally, I will be all for nerfing Renewal... when it gets to the point where you HAVE to play Renewal in every Tombs build just to be successful at all.

@ mysterial, the problem isnt that its ele overpowered + ele underpowered = balance, its that its being mixed with already strong smiting spells to beat the living hell out of everyone. Perhaps just allow it as ele enchants and ele spells that trigger it? then no smiting abuse, and itll be er, aura and attunement, which is only the three enchants. + flare spamming, and then when youve used up half your skill bar with that you can get some nukes. THAT might balance eles some. But im not doing the maths, im too lazy.

I agree. I was actually trying to think of how I could make Ether Renewal
more useful to Fire/Water/Earth elementalists while reducing its abuse
from el/mo smiters.

It matters little if Ether Renewal abusing build has a corresponding
counter build; that's not relevant -- just about everything has a counter.
What's relevant is that ER gives 3-5x as much energy as any other elite
energy management skill out there -- this is what is out-of wack.

I'm certain you can re-phrase your point without the personal attack.

This may be a good suggestion, but as Dazn was saying (mud-sliinging
aside) limiting skills in this manner restricts the creative freedom of build
construction, and therefore reduces diversity. I like how ER is usable with
spells from any skill line -- and I'd rather it stay that way rather than being
shakled to just elemental skills. However, once that energy is usable by
any skill -- ER must now be ballanced with Energy Drain and Offering of
Blood.

Make it "15% of the spell cost for each other enchantment on you" and I'm sold. I could live with 20% then too.

I have used Ether Renewal as a smiting ele on several occasions. It is sick how little health or energy issues there are while using this skill. I have moved on to more, and less, creative, but far more fun builds.

Right now I feel Ether renewal is useless for the Elementalist since they do not rely on enchantments. Well, some people use attunement, but enchantments are not the bread and butter of the elementalist line. How about changing Ether Renewal to not have anything to do with enchantments, but affect Exaustion.

Perhaps 1/3 faster recovery from exaustion?

Or increase the duration of the skill by 2 and have it only give energy while casting spells that cost more than 10 energy.

Maybe something like

Ether Renewal: Enchantment Spell, cost 10, duration, 60 seconds, for each for each spell cast costing 10-15% of max energy you gain 30-50% of the cost of that spell back and 100% of the energy cost is returned as health. While effected by this enchantment exaustion recovery is sped up by 1/8-1/3.

Boy those numbers are off the cuff, but I think a setup like this would be more geared towards the "true" Elementalist.

you want ether to recover from exhaustion too??? your description would give meteor shower, maelstrom, and earthquake users very happy. I'm sorry but it doesn't seem like a viable suggestion. Think of the potential outcome ... you now will have a bunch of E/Me arcane echoing showers, quakes and maelstrom without a care in the world ... heck ... people would start using obsidian flame spikes like candy if they could simply use the skill to recover from exhaustion 33% faster ...

its different I'll give you that ... and it would definately still see play ...

Nice contribution; thanks. This also makes its effect a bit easier to
explain. Let's look at the numbers. When you do this, 15% isn't
sufficient, you need 20% or its nerfed too much.


Fixed Ether Renewal #3 {Elite} - Enchantment Spell

For 10 seconds, each time you cast a spell, you gain 40-60% of the
energy cost of the spell back, plus another 20% of the spell cost for
every other enchantment on you.


To help visualize the proposal, here is a chart that assumes 50en will
be spent during the 10s period and that the energy gain is averaged
over the 30 second cooldown period.

So, in this case, if you cast ER, you're going to average .66 energy per
second; which is a touch weaker than Energy Drain. If you have one
additional enchancement, you bring it up to the level of Mantra of Recall.
Two or more additional enchantments -- and hence a greater risk of
having them rended, is rewarded by the equivalent of 1pip over the
30 second period. I kinda like 20% per enchantment, since it amounts
to 1pip per enchantment, which is basically the cost of maintaining the
enchantment. This also happens to be about the same as Blessed
Signet; only this skill doesn't require that you're using maintained
enchantments (the classic difference between a elite and non-elite is
the interaction /w other skills).

Regardless, this is more-or-less in the ballpark. I'm sure Arena.Net can
tweak the numbers to make themselves happy.

Yes. This is ideal. Nerf everything. If everything is nerfed, then there is peace and harmony

I think a lot of the ele elites are underpowered and eles themselves are rather unimpressive.

While I do think ether renewal is underpowered skill, I don't think that it should be balanced with eles in their current state. Things like ether prodigy are in dire need of a buff and the overall dps of eles is not where it should be in comparison to other profs.

I think eles are the class that needs the most attention atm, and I hope overused skills like ether renewal aren't nerfed in comparison to other ele stuff.. because the prof as a whole just isn't what it should be.

i haven't read the whole thread because i'm kind of low on time, so here's my suggestion.

increase the time limit to 15 seconds,

Remove the "for each enchantment" clause (like either ensign or scaphism said, i'm not sure) and instead "for each spell you cast". now, i understand that this makes renewal A) kind of a buffed Aura of Restoration, and
B) favor faster casting/spammable spells.

i don't know how to solve problem b as of yet, i'm thinking of a solution. as an added nerf, decrease the amount of energy gained from 1..4 to 1..3, and health 5...17 to 5..15.

seeing as most smiting spells don't have an instant recharge (then again, some prot spells have near-instant), this might make eles shift over to either protection or just regular eles. i don't know.

guild wars folks always talk about "not 1 build cant beat all" and that is true, if u think Ether Renewal is too good, make an anti-build and u should have no problem....every good build has its weaknesses

When the game is at a "one build can beat most" stage, that's when people should be concerned. It's stopped being rock paper scissors and become rock rock bigger rock.

Easier said than done, my friend.

BTW Ix, I love those suggestions. At 4 enchantments, getting 2 energy/s. is equivalent to 6 arrows of energy regen, which is still considerably more than you get with most other energy management options, but relies on very specific conditions. Much better than the current 60 arrows of regen

yeah well it is really good build, but i am sure there will be more builds that can beat it

The problem i have with it is the HP regen. We'd be able to just kill them if it wasn't. Aura of restoration as a % atatched to the regen while ether has a straight up bonus. Regaurdless of the energy cost.

Our counter build runs Rend, Chiblians, Drain Enchantment, Punsihing shot, Distractin shot, Leach signet, Power Drain, Energy Drain, savage slash, disrupting blow, concussion shot, choking gas And natures renewal. All that and we can take one vs one builds fine. The problems start to arise when there is more then one team. We only just scrape through on the interups, damage and drains one a one vs one. Chib is great when you get smite ganked but it sakes 5 secconds longer to recharge then balths. So we can only rely on that for one assult. All the drains in the world don't stop them with ether renewal so we rend one, gas the other and try and get the wars on the third. But our wars can't kill the target when it has ether renewal.
We've tried a full focus on one with hamstring and sprints but unless we can get him down quickly the wars carrying the balth wise up to what the necro is doing and tear him to pieces. Meanwhile the other 2 smites just renewl the balth and the pain continues.
We've run into builds using metor shower and other slow casting nukes and we can beat them no problems even with natures cause of their casting times.

Honestly if the HP regen was taken out or nerfed I could deal with the mana problems.