This Game is Shallow.

Face it. All you do is grind skill points, go from mission to mission, and kill the same monsters. This game has no depth. There are no puzzles, minigames, quests later on in the game, or much variety between the character types. Once you go through the game, doing it with 2 more is just an annoyance. There's no spirit in this game to make it worth playing. The story line is very vauge or non existant. The only fun aspects of the game are PVP yet we're wasting our time with PVE. There's not a lot to say because of how shallow this game is. I'm saying we need to have rest areas with games and puzzles seeing as there are none at all. Where are our dungeons? The lameness of this game is easily defined by going from point A to point B and killing stuff in between. Not a joke, that is actually the only thing you are doing. I'll repeat that.

This game is defined as going from point A to point B and killing stuff in between.

Yeah, you pick up stuff on the side, get chests, see some cutscenes, and eventually get enough skills to do PVP, but the actual game is the definition above.

This is really sad and we need to fix this. This is so poorly thought out. Where is the skill in that definition I ask? Where? Warriors and Elementalists are the best classes because they can actually solo, and monk as a side is good to have aswell, but if you're weak you have to be extrodinarily skilled if you want even half as much loot as a soloer or to run from place to place. In fact, where's the skill in that? This game is made for skill, yet we're having people not using it. Seriously, when's the last time you've heard of a Necromancer or a Mesmer solo? Never. Now they have no way to bring up their end no matter how skilled they are because the game is said to be made for skill, but is made to be for power.

This game needs radical changes, because this game is not anywhere near skill based until you get to PVP.

Something needs to be done, but I'm not even sure what, so I'm asking for your suggestions. What I'm thinking is something along the lines of all classes having the same armour, except they can choose armour from near the warriors end and near the monks end. This way you can 'skillfully' choose how you want to play. I mean you'd be sacrificing defence for mp and vice versa.

A topic in this forum should begin with an idea that can be added to or taken away from. I'm going to move this to Q&A for collecting ideas. Once you have what you want, you can formulate an idea/suggestion and repost it to this forum.

One thing you might also do is use the search key on the Riverside and Sanitarium forums. Both of those have a wealth of "suggestions" and rants with suggestions buried within. Your topic is simply too broad for inclusion in the Sanitarium right now.

I think you should ask yourself this question: Is the game at fault, or the players playing it?

Some classes are the best because they can solo? This is a team-based game, period.

The storyline is vague, maybe... the second time around though in the earlier areas, I caught some nice little references to later in the game ( Charr and Titans most notably )
But it's nice and open-ended, with many plot twists, personal pref: I actually like that

Loot? omg, what does loot do? or gold or ecto or whatever?
You're right on one thing though: PvP is the most fun. Because of one simple reason: this is where there's actual teamplay going on...

And btw, teamplay, unlike soloing, is a skill usefull in RL... think about it

I'm glad you agree, but the game is missing stuff and needs to be fixed. This game is shallow and needs changing, what should be changed?

Never heard of a Necro solo? I guess you don't visit many GW forums and see the plathora of necro solo builds and strategies out there. I'd say go check out a few of the other GW site's and see what other people are thinking up. And your saying monk's can't solo? There's still plenty of monk solo builds and places around...

Funny how I've played 4 characters and so far the easiest i've found happens to be my Necromancer, not my warrior. Second easiest is my Elementalist at the moment, but the best and easiest and most fun character I have is my Necromancer.. yet according to you necromancer is one of the worst characters in the game. Go figure.

And you'll find that the hugely vast majority of rpg style games walk you through the storline from A to B. Take the Baldur's Gate series, Fallout 1 & 2, Star Wors Knights of the Old Republic, Morrowind, etc and so on. Yes some of the games were more "free" in letting you wonder around the world than others.. but they ALL moved you from A to B when it came to the storyline... and look at GW, yes it does move you from A to B, and yes you can avoid all the missions (except like 2? of them) to get around the world..

So whats your complaint? That this is a storydriven rpg thats online? What do you want? an open ended MMOG like WoW or EQ which has little real story but lets you play and go anywhere you want? If thats what you want.. then I strongly suggest you go play there. Because GW's story is RPG driven, and you'll find that a RPG's main storyline is always going to be about going from A to B... filled with killing things between and other story-based events (ie cutscenes).

random generating dungeons. and some areas where everyone can kill stuff with everybody. not just your team.

If you dont like it why play?
If you want it to be better offer some specific ideas.
The game does rely quite heavily on the dynamics created by PVP . IF you dont like PVP this aint the game for you .
They took a LOT of time balancing the classes and it shows.
The mechanics function exceptionaly well considering how young the game is.
The end game battles are most challenging .
It took me a bit to adjust to this game comming from WOW, DOAC,EQ,EQ2, COH, Liniege, and Anarchyonline.
AND AND AND IT"S FREE TO PLAY !!!!!!!!! That is $190.00 per year that you can use for pepsi and doritos .
good luck to you .

including each other of course

gank central here we come

The people playing it should be changed
Its true that allot of people solo allot and i dont blame them but they also should try some more team farming and stuff just for the fun of being together and having fun. Like i almost never see something like "LFG 2 farm with" anywhere in the chats.
If people r going to do that we can have more fun.
And dont be narrowminded about the build of a group just try some other team builds in PvE.
Necro's can replace monks a little and give energie to other members.
Also an elementalist could tank if he uses the right skills.
Try something tinker around be creative.
And dont single people out because they dont have the profession u want them to have. Maybe they have exeptional skills.

I know sometimes u wont get the result u wanted but atleast, if your group doesnt complain, people have fun.

and this is opposed to all other games where its "go point B from A, kill stuff at point B, return to point A to sell junk"

i'm happy that there's more then just "side quests" to do.

And if you think all you can do is farm to in this game....you're better off palying something else. so what if warriors, monk and elementalists can solo? that doesnt help em in pvp.

1-I agree that this game is shallow, but off the top of my head I can't think of any game I've ever played that wasn't shallow (GTA had quite a bit going on...) in some... or many respects.
2-How many hours did you put into the game before the PvE grew boring? I had around 400 I think... may have been 300 before I beat the final boss for the first time.
3-I agree that there aren't enough quests and diversions, especially in the later levels, especially especially in the desert. In Ascalon they were everywhere... there must have been 15 or 20 just between Ascalon and Ashford.

But that's what the suggestions board is for. Unfortunately suggestions that don't involve numbers (directly or indirectly) often get overlooked, but still... if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem.

edit: and shouldn't this have been moved to riverside instead of question/answers?

Well, I am having a darn good time with this game. Best PC game I ever played!

I am enjoying getting from A to B. I enjoy fooling around/joking and chatting with random folk I meet on missions or just in outposts and towns. I enjoy finally getting that rare creature drop. I enjoy hunting for and finding elite skills. I enjoy buying some new armor, customizing it with dye, and seeing how unique my char can be (in this respect I hope future releases of the game will enhance the choices here!).

Actually, I have always hated puzzles in RPG pc games.

So in my opinion, this game does not need radical changes; I think instead you need a radical change in the game you are playing.

Edit: just a thought regarding a comment above about making an elementalist for tanking. This would probably work and be a wild, fun idea. A combination of fire magic with its devastating adjacent-group area spells (phoenix, lava, inferno and several others) plus earth magic for improved armor/better protection and/or air or water for knocking adjacent foes down or slowing them, all combined with aura of restoration to regain hit points while firing off these spells would allow an elementalist to quickly destroy a group of surrounding warriors. I was having fun doing this with fire magic alone until the mob level got too tough for me (didn't use the other elements for protection).

BS. I dislike PvP, yet I play the game. I enjoy PvE very much. Your statement is completely false.

Welcome to the real world. Games are shallow and offer nothing in the way of life fulfillment. All you are really saying is that you ran out of things to do in your probable hundreds hours of play which actually is not a bad return for 50 dollars of entertainment value.

Also, what do you expect? The name of the game says it all. This game was designed for team based PvP, where the number of possible skill interactions is vast. PvE is/was only ever there as an extended tutorial.

if you actually paid attention to the game itself *GUILD WARS* refers to the guild wars that weakened the humans allowing the char to get the upper hand.

if presear were only a tut they would have put their efforts into a huge pvp array of arenas and other pvp events.

pvp is like an appendex to the body of the game as far as amounts of
time spent creating
effort going on
and especially NO UAS/X which the pvp hardcore demanded and did not get

this also was officially stated that pve was planned from the start and not a poor relation added at the last minute.

neither was pvp added as an afterthought.

they were planned equally together

EDIT

you will notice that *grind* is still required of the pvp crowd and if pvp were the be all end result they would not force them to do it

Many games of this genre do that. Go back to Mario Brothers, you went from start to finish, and killed stuff inbetween.

If you are looking for puzzles, play Myst or one those types of games. Any level progression in this type of game requires "killing stuff".

Your expectations.

I'd have to agree with the OP on the shallowness of the PvE game. It started off pretty well, but by the time i'd ascended the first time I was getting a bit tired, and by the time I fully completed with one character I was downright bored of it.

There really isn't a lot to do in the PvE game other than grind through the missions. There are no long term goals, there are no real rewards, no cool loot, there are no mini games, the missions are reduced to the same pull -> kill monotony over and over and the story is seriously weak.

Granted, i'm reaching the 500 hour mark across all characters now, so i've definately had my moneys worth from the game, but it's a good job that the PvP game is so well balanced and satisfying otherwise I would probably not be playing this game half as much as I do now.

Even the Guilds, which are an integral part of the game seem to have a lack of options. I put it down to the fact that Guild Wars is a new game with the usual teething problems, and I hope that they add a whole lot of depth to the PvE game next time around otherwise i'll likely just stick with the PvP.

I thought that what all MMORPG is all about go from point A and kill the monsters at point B, than go to point C to get item and come back to point A. Any changes that a-net can do to make the game less shallow.. well, they can always add more quests, make items harder to get it, create good set of skills that is hard to acquire, make the maps more interactive?

Tons of things they can do, but the bottom line OP is that MMORPG is all about going from one place to another and killing things in between to gain exps, you can't expect them to change the formula.

For those that are bored with the game, I wonder how much they have played. I ask this because I have a theory that when one plays a game heavily in a short period of time, they are going to get burned out on the game. This game was never designed to be a WoW, an EQ2, a SWG. Those games to be successful are full time jobs. People unsatisfied with GW played the game the same way they played WoW. Heck, I played GW from the first beta event on. When the game finally was released, I noticed my guildmates who were WoW refugees raced ahead quickly. Exploring the area was not of concern to them, they would do that later. No, they wanted to get out to an early lead, which just isn't needed in GW. Several weeks later, I am in the same place they are, same level. They are using new characters where as I am just now exploring FoW and the UW. I have never once got tired of the game and enjoy it as much now as when I first played the world beta event (and the monthly BWEs afterwards).

What I find enjoyable in PvE:

Trying new skills to find the best combo.

Meeting people to do quests with.

Seriously, if you ever get bored just killing things, find a group to go with. MMO's are about social interaction.

I only play PvE (Puts up flame shield)

I don't find PvP enjoyable at all.

I do wish they would add quest later on in the game. When you are low level there are a lot of quest to do besides the missions. As you move to other areas they beacuse less and less. I was expecting the same amount.

I still enjoy the game and play almost every day. I am on my 4th character (Other 3 level 20 and ascended). Just play and do the things you enjoy.

Sorena Mascar

I'd like to see elite skills harder to get, what I would agree with is most of the PVE game is too easy. Maybe because there's not enough penalty for dying. Perhaps if they put in a gold loss when you die, then it would be more of a challenge. Heh, you die once you lose 15% of your gold, then you die again 25% then again 43% and again 60% hahahah muahahaha, no just kidding there, that would be too extreme. But, my point is I've had 60% loss and still completed the mission or my quest for an elite skill. It's just not hard enough over most of the game. Really only UW and FOW are really a decent challenge. I would have thought the last mission (end game) would have been extremely hard, but, it was a mere push over and had pratically the same ending as Dungeon Siege I I might add. It wasn't origional at all. And not even any fanfaire after completing the game. Man that suked royally. I got more fanfaire after the Divinity Coast mission or the one just before it whichever, it was a fanfaire.

The story jumped around like a chicken with it's head cut off also, whatever happened to the Charr? Did they overrun Ascalon? If so, how come we can all still go back to it and trade and chat? I know I killed every charr in Mission one (after I got to lvl 20 hehe) at the end there and so that should have saved the day for Ascalon.

Basically it had too many stories in one chapter. A chapter is suppose to be just that, a single chapter, not a novel. lol Just when I was enjoying the Charr woosh off to Stone Summit, then just when getting into the stone summit, woosh off to the White Mantle, then against the White Mantle, then Desert whatever the hell that was about I'm still trying to figure out, lol, from white Mantle to undead, then woosh off to well most of you know the rest of the story. It just moved way to much and way too fast.

And yes it was definitely point A to point B, but, strangely done. Basically like all it's a hack fest. Some of the missions and quests were great. The undead horde was one of my favorites and mission III where yah had to protect Rurik for a time. Thirtsy RIver was fun and Thunderhead Keep. But, most of the rest were bland and just A to B not much excitement.

Some of the quest/mission designers are good, some are not. Some need some more imagination I think and this game definitely needs more DUNGEONS and more things that pop out of walls or from the floor or fall from the ceiling. I was waiting the whole game for that surround battle where you charge into one group and then behind you pops up another group, heh, but, never happened. They could take some lessons from the Dungeon Siege Designers in surprises. Wurms were good though, have to give them credit on those puppies, scared the chit out of me everytime. lol I like to be scared.

Guys,
This might sound a little lame. But what Guild wars has got going here is somewhat of a an awe-inspiring revolution. I'm coming from India where choices are EXTREMELY limited for MMORPGS. There's a game called A3 which is in open beta(so its free). To like all aspects of this game, you have to take urself back to the roots of what ideolises a good game.

The the ideology is simple : Content!!! Not only in PvE but also in PvP. Sadly missing in "great" games like EQ!!!

Dude, I'd suggest download the game A3...(http://a3india.com) and see how it fits. A3 (like many many others Asian MMORPGs) define what level grind reallly is. All u gotta do is appoach an NPC. Take a very lame quest(kill 100 mobs, bring back one trophy..which they drop randomly, might mean u might have 2 kill 1000 before u get it) to get XP.
The goal???? get the next level up!!! so you can go kill higher level mobs.
No epic quests. No professions. No mounts. hardly any classes(4 classes, none omf which u can customize..means mage is female and warrior is male ..no choices).
U will see 1000 mage clones running around that makes the game look more like a high school playground than a vibrant fantasy world!!!!

Trust me dude. GW is a masterpiece. To absorb this, plz play A3 or Wu Online(or any other such games which we asians are saddled with because of proximity of servers) and u'll understand what I;m trying 2 put across.

All hail!!
Balrog

really, necro's cant solo? i got most of this in one night soloing with my necro
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=60125

and no i wont tell anyone the build, it will be nerfed soon enough anyways(and then i will find another one, not make a thread about i am quitting the game)

Good, cuz I bought it for that reason.

If I wanted to roleplay I'd play NWN.
If I wanted to level-grind I'd play WoW or EQ2 or L2.
Contrary to those games GW does not BS you about being a 'roleplaying' game.

This game is called Guild Wars, not RPG Wars.

Go figure.

Yeah. Completely unlike all other rpg's in existence. I mean, what did you expect?

I say "thank GOD there are no puzzles". There is a minigame, it is called "PvP". And there are quests all through the game.
So don't? I've played through it with two characters, and am not bored yet. If you're bored with the game after playing through it once, move on. It's a game, not a lifestyle.

But I suspect you HAVEN'T played through the game. Right?
Yes, it is. Again, just like in all other rpg's except KOTOR and Planescape: Torment. Actually the story of GW is stronger than in e.g. Neverwinter Nights or Morrowind. Pretty par for the course.

OH GOD! ANOTHER PvP-only player bitching about PvE being boring! Go create a PvP characer and DON'T PLAY PvE! Please!
Well, shows what you know of this game. All classes and combinations of classes can solo. I've soloed through the entire game with my mesmer, for instance.
But wait - you're not talking about playing the game, you're talking about FARMING! OK, if you want to farm, get yourself a W/Mo. They rulez at farming. Farming isn't the game, though.
IMO PvP is just a minigame you play now and then to get a break from the PvE. Skill?
There's strategy but no tactics in PvP. If I want PvP with real skill, I'll play Battlefield 2.

And, again: I support UAU (unlock all unlockables) for PvP players. Because I don't want you guys messing up my PvE groups. I want you guys safely behind lock & key in the PvP arenas.

Thanks Numa, you made me laugh out loud today!

I haven't played PvP (well only once/twice) - didn't enjoy or understand the combination of letters and symbols in CAPS mixed in with the swearing
I disagree completely that it is only worthwhile for PvP, in fact when I bought it PvP didn't even enter the equation.

Haven't really anything much to add to the above posts. People's attitudes need to be changed it's true, but impossible. The game can be frustrating (very) at times for many different reasons. Seemingly impossible quests, PUGS!! Maybe you (OP) are approaching it from the wrong direction. Often I find that people get stuck on a single solution to a problem (as in RL), when often there are others, people take the same skill set to every location etc. etc., Perhaps you should change your approach. For example I tried Thunderhead Keep(?) 10 times where everyone (diff groups) was convinced that staying up with the King was the only way to do it, but actually we eventually completed by splitting into two groups, one at each door.

As someone else said, this is (as should any online game be) a social game. PvP doesn't allow so much for that IMO. If I want a beat-the-brains-out of someone with little interaction, I'll go play UT on a server where I don't know anyone. Try playing the game a little differently than the crowd, if you find a green,purp, gold, sup rune, dyes etc. that you don't want, give them away to someone and see (imagine) the surprise on their face. Accept new players into your groups willingly and don't cuss them if they make a mistake (but kick Noobs and arrogant players without hesitation). Stop just going from A to B, take new players into your group and let them lead and explore, go back and do this for missions/quests to help others complete them. Although this is a difficult option, as the majority of players seem ONLY to want to get from A to B anyway. I don't see your complaint...reading a book is getting from A to B, the point is to enjoy the route, it doesn't have to change your life. Although with 398 hours in 57 days it's probably changed the life of some of the Landlords in my town

I'm babbling.

I noticed one 'intelligent'/clever idea in the update, the Group of 'seemingly' useless Dwarves outside Granite Keep who refused to walk very far. It took me a few 'what the hell are they there for?'s before I realised and I'm a ranger! (It could be that it was 5 a.m. in the morning following a 7 hour stint, or maybe I'm just slow ) More stuff like this would be good, more NPC interaction other than just quests (fetch and return) would be cool, similar to the escort/protect type quests maybe.

As stated above random dungeons would be good (if the camera operator didn't have the Dt's).

How about some pitch-black areas in the mines, or where you have to fight through mobs to light some wall torches to advance, thus forcing everyone to use their mini map and Party bars for a while

The quests, rather than always the same, could be randomized? Sometimes you get one quest, sometimes another. Perhaps there could be class-specific quests? Quests that a group can only do if it has a specific (an 'unwanted' maybe?) class in their team.

Maybe these have been mentioned in other threads, I just don't have the time to read everything!

Oh, and Anet, please make Alkar a hench! That man is a god! I think I'll try soloing with him outside SF

I guess some people wanted guild wars to be a free MMORPG in every sense of the cursed term...

Sorry, you've been denied...

Grind? Wtf is grind? You are beyond sucking if you think GW is a grind game. In 3months I made 2 lvl 20 ascended characters. Play Ragnarok Online and I DARE YOU to do the same thing in 3 months [restriction, 2 hours a day ONLY... That's how I hit my max mark] You think you know grind, you don't know jack shit...

Play with everybody? um...

Get Kill Stealed, ganked, and Player killed by everybody... Get looted by everybody... Get BOTTED by everybody... Um, go play a shittier game then...

Killing the same monsters? Why farm?! Just play through quests with friends. You'll get a LOT more loot and exp doing the Sorrow's Furnace and new Titan quests than any damn farming... Fighting with teammates at your back is fun...

And yeah, if you've got money to brainlessly waste on real grinders... [WoW, RO, etc.] then go waste it there and stop wasting our time...

You know... I once saw my cousin play GTA, a game that has been aclaimed as the best game of blah blah blah... but in truth all I saw was go here, kill this then go there. It had some open endness by stealing cars and doing mini games (ie Taxi Driver, Cops and Robbers, ER Hospital Run, etc.) but in the end it was the same thing: pick someone at spot a drive him/her to spot b...

Wow... and this is the most acclaimed game? Yet you do the same things over and over. But... its still agreat game so they say... sure...

I dont really see what you are then refrring too. I do however agree with allowing other actions like gambling, fishing and other menial mini adventures other then just quests. However I have enjoyed the game a lot because it hasn't been point a to point b kill stuff in between. Ive had loads of fun with the mini quests and with the missions but my thing is I HAVEN'T RUSHED THE GAME! I've been playing for a month or more yet Im still level 17 (or was it 18 dont remember now) and havent finished with the missions yet. Instead I have been questing, doing missions, fighting in arenas, farming, selling, talking with friends. Since Ive been doing all these things instead of engaging on one only activity I find a lot of variety and lot of new faces...

Therefore I can't see well the so called shallowness of this game. Hell WoW is more "shallow" by your definition and YET it IS a great game (its gimmick being the alliance-horde war, works great)

Heh what I just said in elaborate words truth could not have been spoken more bluntly. Cheers Yukito. People play something online for free this good but yet they expect more.

AND I HAVENT MENTIONED YET: THIS GAME IS THE FIRST CHAPTER! Not to mention that its updates made it even a better game.

I really enjoy all aspects of the game, PVE, PVP, missions, and quests. This is my third time through the game so some of it does get monotonous, but I still enjoy looking for and finding great items, and teaming up with people whether it be in the arenas or a PUG in PVE.

I think one of the best suggestions I've seen to make the game a little more different/better is to have mobs rush into towns every once in a while. Think about it, you're new to the game, just finished pre- sear and made it to post Ascalon city, you're talking to the merchant and BOOM, 30 Charr rush in - 5 of them bosses and they start coming after you. Oh yeah, mapping and district changing are temporarily disabled during these attacks.

Similiar thing could happen in Augury Rock when say Glint and his buddies from the Dragons Lair decide to fly in for a raid; or in Droknars when a bunch of Mursaat and Jade rush in (and you're not infused yet).

Its just an idea but think of the teamwork it could inspire (or not inspire) and the commentary afterwords. It would be at the very least colorful.

If your really that unsatisfied with the game then play something else. Nobody is forcing you to play other than yourself. Updates and Expansions are coming, but if you play the game so much and are bored with it, then put it away for a while. The game is free to play and it was intended mainly for PvP. If your looking for PvE then I recommend World of Warcraft, but then you would actually have to pay. You basically get what you pay for as far as content goes, however with the new update maybe that will keep you happy for awhile. Great job on the free update A-net!

I agree this game is shallow. I have only played about 400 hours of PVE and I have started to be bored with certain aspects. I think I will probably only be able to squeak 800-1000 hours of fun out of the game before it goes back on my shelf.

I think the game designers have failed miserably because when I paid $50 for this game I had expected an unlimited amount of fun. Every other game I have ever bought I am still playing with just as much enthusiasm as when I originally bought it. Why cant these guys make this game just as infinitely lasting as every other game on the market?

I think for my $0 monthly fee that I am not wrong in expecting constant updating and extension. I agree there should be puzzles and games and contests and more areas and cooler armor and more weapons and at 15 classes and 15,000 skills for each class. I dont know why this game shouldnt have all that and I dont know why the designers dont give it all to me for free. I swear if I have to BUY an expansion I will sue because the designers are clearly taking advantage of me.

Two big smiles today! Maybe I should do the lottery too...

Nice one Red

I think you have enough things in this game to please alot of diferent kinds of people:
-----------
Collectors
In this game you can collect every type of hammer, sword and shields. people sometimes just like having one thing of everything, just to have em. It can take as much time as getting the perfect weapon. This type of play suit collectors and pack-rats

Fame
Some people like to be recognised (like Leroy Jenkin in WoW). guild wars permits people to practice their skillz in fame and become recognised when they are not in the real world. This type of play suits socialites. Thanks to the Guild systems and Ranks, these people can realize their dreams of reaching the top.

Do everything
(BEST RPers, they quickly graduate from N00bs to expert)
Some people like to thouroughly go through the game, going to the next area only when they have finnished the one they are in currently. They pay much more attention to the story and will catch secrets that no one else do. **Seriously how many of you talk to the mission guards whenever you get to the next mission post? I know I do and I discover interesting things**

Play everything
some people liek to play each style of proffession ther is too offer. And since guild wars has 40+ combinations, there is no end to the fun that they will have. Couple that with the fact that there are 30+ skills per class and many different attributes to choose from, they can't possibly end!

Self-prefecting
Some player like concentrating on one character until he is absolutely perfect in every way: Stat, armor and weapon wise. They get superior runes, 15k armor and perfect weapons. Since perfect weapons and 15k armor is so expensive this game offers them hours of work.

Social
Some players actually like playing with other ppl, (I personnally do) they like talking and asking questions as well as answering any little questions other player's might have.
---------------

All in all Guild wars is a very diverse game with quests, mission and interesting engine to work with compared to many other games out there.

If you only look at it from the story progression then you're really narrowing your view on the whole. There's many aspects of GW to be seen.

My turn:

1. You say the only part you like is the PvP (moreso than the PvE) - well, you're not alone. Many people feel that way and exercise the option by playing more PvP and little or no PvE. Some games are either one or the other - GW allows you a choice ... that's gotta be worth something.

2. Minigames and puzzles - I happen to be one of those folks who isn't too crazy about puzzles and minigames, in general. Puzzles always seem so contrived for me in a game. Every time I find myself facing a series of switches, levels, moving platforms, riddles or combination of keys... I'm extracted from the fantasy setting and feel like I'm just playing a computer game. It's become so commonplace to see these puzzles in RPGs and FPSs it's hard to be innovative.

If there had to be "puzzles" in GW I'd prefer it to seem integral with the setting - not just a device for breaking up the grind.

Minigames? Like Chocobo races, swoop races or something? Why not? But isn't that what the random arenas are for? If you want gambling halls or other town sport I'd certainly be for it. But minigames don't make or break a game for me.

3. Dungeons? I know it's become the RPG staple to include dungeons. I think the conscious decision to exclude them is a commendable attempt to make a setting that is distinctly GW rather than an iteration of AD&D. I don't miss dungeons at all.

4. "Warriors and Elementalists are the best classes?" No comment, except to say that there is enough depth in having Primary/secondary classes that the unique strengths of each profession become apparent with experimentation.
In the beginning everyone thinks Warriors and Elementalists are the best class - that's why they're the premeir beginner's profession. Experienced players research and experiment with builds and can exploit the strengths of every class. That's why we see "trends" come and go - e.g. the 55/105 monk builds, healing balls, ranger trapping groups for farming, IWAY, minion masters ...

"Where's the skill?" Skill is in the creativity behind designing a successful build and the reflexes/insight in implementing that build during gameplay. On the other hand, a pure "grind"-type game would just make characters stronger with better armor, damage, protection as a function of level. In a different game all 110th level warriors are pretty much on par with each other and achieved that by grind alone. There's a reason for the level cap at 20 - and I like it that way.

5. If you don't see much variety in the design of characters then you probably haven't worked with many primary/secondary build combos. Sure, it'd be nice to have a ton of choices with armor and weapons - but the equipment alone isn't what makes characters effective in this game. A good player knows it ain't about the equipment....

GOOD ONE

for a moment i missed the sarcasm and thought it was simply another idiot who thought they were getting EQ/WOW for no monthly charge

/salute