Staves vs. Wands + Foci
unienaule
Well, I've noticed in my forum travels that a lot of people say they see no reason to use staves vs. wands and foci. Now, earlier today, my friend and I noticed you get 15 energy from Galigords Stone Staff without any earth magic. This led us to discover you get full benefits from staves without actually having any skill in them. Thus, I can get away with using my earth staff as a smiter elementalist and have no penalty for no earth magic, and still have 87 energy without going and buying a more expensive smiter green staff or normal staff. This doesnt work with artifacts, since you get considerably less energy from not meeting the requirements. Im just wondering if there's a good reason to use wands instead of staves. You cant get +20 enchanting with a rod or artifact.
Charcoal Ann
with rod and artifact you could get +40% recharge speed and casting speed.
that is very significant. you can also get the +15energy (-1 regen) mods on focii and wands.
personally i use staves but these are the reasons that i have used wands and focii in the past.
that is very significant. you can also get the +15energy (-1 regen) mods on focii and wands.
personally i use staves but these are the reasons that i have used wands and focii in the past.
Gomezie
Depends on your requirements really doesnt it.. For my protection monk i cant use a staff because a have a well known collectors item that increases my energy by something ridiculous like a total of 30..
All i want now is a wand that gives +5 energy and ill be away.. plus i like some of the offhand items, specially the look of the storm artifact
All i want now is a wand that gives +5 energy and ill be away.. plus i like some of the offhand items, specially the look of the storm artifact
Lag Hell
I use staffs for 1 reason and 1 reason only, looks sooooo much better on female eles and monks
Makkert
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Originally Posted by Gomezie
Depends on your requirements really doesnt it.. For my protection monk i cant use a staff because a have a well known collectors item that increases my energy by something ridiculous like a total of 30..
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I don't know this 'well known' item....
EDIT: nvm, found it. +12 energy, +15 energy & energyregen -1.
after 45 secs, it wears out the +15 energy bonus.
and since PvE /PvP tends to be longer then 45 secs, I think I'll pass.
Or someone must be able to give a good explanation why this item is very good.
As secondary weapon maybe? switching over when in Energy need...?
john little
If i were going to create an ultimate build weapon, i'd base it around a staff. However, based on how difficult it is to find perfect or near perfect staff upgrades I tend to stick to wand + foci, and currently use two purple ones (a flame wand with 10-20 dmg, 6% chance of faster casting, +3 energy <50% health and a healing ankh +12 energy, +4 armour against ele dmg).
Also, it is far easier to get a Rago's Flame Wand and a decent offhand item than the corrosponding gold items + upgrades a staff would require (seeing one drop for someone else is so annoying).
Also, it is far easier to get a Rago's Flame Wand and a decent offhand item than the corrosponding gold items + upgrades a staff would require (seeing one drop for someone else is so annoying).
IceD'Bear
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Originally Posted by Charcoal Ann
with rod and artifact you could get +40% recharge speed and casting speed.
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unienaule
eh same difference, anyway, theres no way that i know of to get both mods on both items. any screenshots would be appreciated.
Makkert
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Originally Posted by IceD'Bear
20% + 20% isn't 40%, it's 36%.
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not to offend. it just sounds like a pain to test this.
Gomezie
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Originally Posted by Makkert
which well known collector's item is this? where to get this?
I don't know this 'well known' item.... EDIT: nvm, found it. +12 energy, +15 energy & energyregen -1. after 45 secs, it wears out the +15 energy bonus. and since PvE /PvP tends to be longer then 45 secs, I think I'll pass. Or someone must be able to give a good explanation why this item is very good. As secondary weapon maybe? switching over when in Energy need...? |
Its go for me as i can run in to a battle with channelling on and cast a shed load of protection skills fast and not have to wait for a regen to cast more.. thats why its valuable to myself, and many others... its build dependant tho really
Charcoal Ann
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Originally Posted by IceD'Bear
20% + 20% isn't 40%, it's 36%.
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maybe they don't stack. i which case you get simply +20%
maybe one is applied before the other resulting in 44% increase.
maybe they are both applied to the base speed giving 40%.
not sure where the 36% is coming from. but am willing to learn...
i know for sure you can get both on a focus. never seen both on a wnd though. best i've seen is 20% casting speed on death (i think) so you can get +~40% casting speed and +20% recharge speed. still significant.
edit: i know i'm taking about casting speed and you are talking in telms of time yes? thought so.
IceD'Bear
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Originally Posted by Makkert
assumed or proven knowledge?
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unienaule
lol @ icedbear. basic math... right. anyway, its like this, you have 2 separate 20% chances, so 4% of the time they'll both go off and therefore youend up with 20+20-4=36. oh and no, icedbear wasnt talking in terms of time. didnt think so. and as for wearing out, he doesnt mean go away, just that +15 versus -1 regen mathmatically wears out after 45 seconds to a minute versus how much you would have regened over the same time period.
Lag Hell
wat kind of maths is that?
im sure the update didnt make 20+20=36 did it?
EDIT: so ur saying them both going off @ the same time dosnt count as a bonus
im sure the update didnt make 20+20=36 did it?
EDIT: so ur saying them both going off @ the same time dosnt count as a bonus
unienaule
um check my post again. .2*.2=.04 which is the chance both will go off and cancel one of them out. that leads to minus four which makes 20+20 MINUS 4 like i said in my last post. it counts, but one of them had no effect. its like 20+16 basically because the first 20 overlaps with 4 of the next 20
IceD'Bear
You have two separate 20% chances that the skill recharges faster. The total chance is calculated this way:
You have 20% chance that the first faster recharge happens. If it does, it doesn't matter if the second one also happens.
In the 80% when the first one doesn't trigger, you have 20% chance that the second one does. 20% of 80% = 16%.
20% (for the first) + 16% (for the second if the first doesn't happen) = 36% (total chance of faster recharge).
You have 20% chance that the first faster recharge happens. If it does, it doesn't matter if the second one also happens.
In the 80% when the first one doesn't trigger, you have 20% chance that the second one does. 20% of 80% = 16%.
20% (for the first) + 16% (for the second if the first doesn't happen) = 36% (total chance of faster recharge).
Lag Hell
So if 2 of the recharge/cast speed mods go off @ the same time they get cancelled out? i thought ull have both fast cast rate and the spell would recharge faster as well ^^
unienaule
no they dont get canceled out. ok. the first one has the full 20%, but for the second item, 4% of the time, the first ones going off anyway, thus the second item isnt helping. thats why there is -4% to the second item.
Jenosavel
I could swear I've seen two different increased recharge rates back when I used to use a fire ele. This always lead me to believe that you had the approx. 40% chance (36% or whatever it comes out to be exactly) of getting a recharge increase, but also something around a 4% chance of getting an even faster recharge. It's rare, but I have seen Meteor Shower recharge insanely fast, faster than it usually would with just the normal recharge speed increase.
I can't prove it however. I haven't recorded it and carefully timed it or anything. This is just an observation I've had. It's been a long time since I've used fire on my ele, and I don't really notice the effect with any other element. I'd assume that to be due to the shorter recharge times everything else seems to have.
Hopefully I'm not just insane and someone a bit more meticulous can verify or debunk this.
I can't prove it however. I haven't recorded it and carefully timed it or anything. This is just an observation I've had. It's been a long time since I've used fire on my ele, and I don't really notice the effect with any other element. I'd assume that to be due to the shorter recharge times everything else seems to have.
Hopefully I'm not just insane and someone a bit more meticulous can verify or debunk this.
GuildWarsPlayer
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Originally Posted by Lag Hell
So if 2 of the recharge/cast speed mods go off @ the same time they get cancelled out? i thought ull have both fast cast rate and the spell would recharge faster as well ^^
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Chance of fast recharge : 36%
Chance of fast casting : 20%
Chance of both fast casting and fast recharge : 7,2%
If Jenosavel is right and effects can stack then the bonus would be like this:
Chance of fast recharge : 36%
Chance of super-fast recharge : 4%
Chance of fast casting : 20%
Chance of both fast casting and fast recharge : 7,2%
Chance of both fast casting and super-fast recharge : 0,8 %
SJG
Ugh, I've never seen basic probability explained so badly in my life 
And there are so many assumptions flying around...
And there are so many assumptions flying around...
Third Quarter
Canes and foci cannot increase the duration of enchants.
On the other hand, staves don't come in -1 regen, +15 energy flavours. (these are indispensible when confronted with energy denial)
On the other hand, staves don't come in -1 regen, +15 energy flavours. (these are indispensible when confronted with energy denial)
Makkert
Ok, I runned some tests.
the ultra recharge exists.
so you have:
4% of ultrarecharge
32% of increased recharge
64% of normal recharge
with 2 items with 20% recharge boosts
Tests > theorethical assumptions
the ultra recharge exists.
so you have:
4% of ultrarecharge
32% of increased recharge
64% of normal recharge
with 2 items with 20% recharge boosts
Tests > theorethical assumptions
Thunder Thyze
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Originally Posted by Makkert
Ok, I runned some tests.
the ultra recharge exists. so you have: 4% of ultrarecharge 32% of increased recharge 64% of normal recharge with 2 items with 20% recharge boosts Tests > theorethical assumptions |
Thunder the Pedant
Makkert
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Originally Posted by Thunder Thyze
Surely "run" x "run" = ran (with a 10% chance of "I have run").....not "runned"?
Thunder the Pedant |
pick on the foreigner!
his spelling is a bit off!
comedy gold. But thanks for correcting me, it is good to know that I still need to work on my spelling. But funny non the less, you made me laugh
MuKen
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Originally Posted by Makkert
which well known collector's item is this? where to get this?
I don't know this 'well known' item.... EDIT: nvm, found it. +12 energy, +15 energy & energyregen -1. after 45 secs, it wears out the +15 energy bonus. and since PvE /PvP tends to be longer then 45 secs, I think I'll pass. Or someone must be able to give a good explanation why this item is very good. As secondary weapon maybe? switching over when in Energy need...? |
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Originally Posted by MuKen
On the contrary, that +30 energy can be a lifesaver at times. Definitely not good to equip all the time, but I usually keep one weapon set with +15/-1, and one weapon set with +30/-2. Then if we're at a critical point in the battle and I'm out of energy, I can kick in a little more last second energy which can be a real lifesaver (esp if I am the monk!), then merely swap it back out when I'm done casting.
Also, this helps against energy denial because they can't take energy you don't have. So that extra 30 energy in reserve is untouchable unless they happen to drain you while you have the weapons switched in. |
Ensign
Wand + Focus gives 12 base energy and four inherent modifiers.
Staves give 10 base energy plus two inherent modifiers plus two upgrade modifiers.
Now the 'focus swap' slots aren't really up for debate since you need the +15/-1 mods to make those work, and those only come on the Wand/Focus combo. So it's just the primary weapon slot that we're concerned about.
A base 20/20 is there for both types, so that can be ignored. The difference, then, is between two more inherent mods, such as another 20/20, versus the two staff upgrades, say +10 defense or insightful/enchanting. There are some builds where this is up for debate but generally I don't think it's close - there's nothing you can get on a focus that's competitive with +10 defense. Sure, it's closer on some classes (Elementalists) than others (Monks), but 16% damage reduction on a soft target is a huge, reliable boost to an otherwise soft target. On top of that you have the 20% enchanting mod which can make the Wand + Focus combo look downright silly.
So, barring the occasional build that can really make use of double 20 recharge, the question shouldn't be 'is there a reason to use a staff over a wand and a focus?', but 'why should I give up my staff for a wand and focus?'. Staves, when upgraded, are just stronger.
Peace,
-CxE
Staves give 10 base energy plus two inherent modifiers plus two upgrade modifiers.
Now the 'focus swap' slots aren't really up for debate since you need the +15/-1 mods to make those work, and those only come on the Wand/Focus combo. So it's just the primary weapon slot that we're concerned about.
A base 20/20 is there for both types, so that can be ignored. The difference, then, is between two more inherent mods, such as another 20/20, versus the two staff upgrades, say +10 defense or insightful/enchanting. There are some builds where this is up for debate but generally I don't think it's close - there's nothing you can get on a focus that's competitive with +10 defense. Sure, it's closer on some classes (Elementalists) than others (Monks), but 16% damage reduction on a soft target is a huge, reliable boost to an otherwise soft target. On top of that you have the 20% enchanting mod which can make the Wand + Focus combo look downright silly.
So, barring the occasional build that can really make use of double 20 recharge, the question shouldn't be 'is there a reason to use a staff over a wand and a focus?', but 'why should I give up my staff for a wand and focus?'. Staves, when upgraded, are just stronger.
Peace,
-CxE
zehly
You see, there is this thing called "asthetics" (which, incidentally, causes people to farm). I know that *I* use a staff, because it looks prettier. And because it's cooler. And cool things are cool, so I use a staff, to be cool.
I also can get the +Armor benefit from a staff.
I also can get the +Armor benefit from a staff.
ElderAtronach
If you're talking about statistical advantages, the only times you should ever use a staff is for either +5/+5 defense or +30/+30 health (not as good), or 20% longer enchantments. +5 energy staff heads doesn't mean jack crap in the long run.
The "best" weapon/focus combo is the prepatch +5 energy sword with a 20% longer enchant hilt and a 20/20 faster focus. Or for protection monks, Worth's holy rod and the collector's 20/20 focus for 2 separate chances of increased cast/recharge.
Also +15 energy/-1 regen should only be used as a secondary focus switch. Using it all the time is just stupid and crippling yourself over longer battles. A lot of monks don't seem to get this for some reason.
EDIT: my post is regarding monks specifically, sorry should have made that clearer.
The "best" weapon/focus combo is the prepatch +5 energy sword with a 20% longer enchant hilt and a 20/20 faster focus. Or for protection monks, Worth's holy rod and the collector's 20/20 focus for 2 separate chances of increased cast/recharge.
Also +15 energy/-1 regen should only be used as a secondary focus switch. Using it all the time is just stupid and crippling yourself over longer battles. A lot of monks don't seem to get this for some reason.
EDIT: my post is regarding monks specifically, sorry should have made that clearer.
Teufel Eldritch
I use both. While it mainly depends on the stats of the weapon & focii it also depends on asthetics(as zehly so kindly pointed out) & the character I am using. My Curse Necro loves the look of her dyed purple collectors Insightful Wicked Staff of Curses, whereas my Mez loves her Pimp Cane w/Chalice. Don't piss my Mez off! If you do she will smack you upside your head with her Pimp Cane & make you her b*tch! 
DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by Third Quarter
Canes and foci cannot increase the duration of enchants.
On the other hand, staves don't come in -1 regen, +15 energy flavours. (these are indispensible when confronted with energy denial) |
Zodiak
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Originally Posted by Gomezie
Depends on your requirements really doesnt it.. For my protection monk i cant use a staff because a have a well known collectors item that increases my energy by something ridiculous like a total of 30..
All i want now is a wand that gives +5 energy and ill be away.. plus i like some of the offhand items, specially the look of the storm artifact |
I am thinking of making a monk and would like to know. I havent used collector's much and have a hard time keeping track of them
Caged Fury
For my monk, I got a Healing Ankh (Energy +12, Energy +15, Energy regen -1, Health +30) from a desert collector (Kraviec in Vulture Drifts) for 5 griffon wings.
temp
wands and Foci for me
+32 energy =D [27 from icon {well necro anyway} 5 from rod]
like the health mods on Staves, but im an energy man myself
d=
+32 energy =D [27 from icon {well necro anyway} 5 from rod]
like the health mods on Staves, but im an energy man myself
d=
Jetdoc
Nice debate in this old thread.
Here are the basic differences between Staff and Wand/Focus modifiers, for easier comparison.
Staff Advantages over Wand/Focus
-- Can get +15 Energy without Attribute Requirement
-- Can get +10 Armor without penalty (vs. max +5 with penalty/condition with W/F)
-- Can get +30 Health always over W/F
-- Can get +20% longer enchantments
All four of those are mitigated by the HoD sword, which gives +5 energy and can have either an armor mod, a fortitutde mod, or an enchanting mod. The HoD, however, eliminates many of the advantages that Wands/Foci have over Staves below, however.
Wand/Focus Advantages over Staves
-- Can get +2 more base Energy than Staves (either conditional or Nolani Wand/HoD)
-- Can get +27 more Energy than Staves with -2 Energy Regeneration
-- Can get 40% faster skill recharge (vs. only 20% for staves)
-- Can get 40% faster casting speed (vs. only 20% for staves)
Edited for Dark's comments about the +1 Staff Wrapping.
Here are the basic differences between Staff and Wand/Focus modifiers, for easier comparison.
Staff Advantages over Wand/Focus
-- Can get +15 Energy without Attribute Requirement
-- Can get +10 Armor without penalty (vs. max +5 with penalty/condition with W/F)
-- Can get +30 Health always over W/F
-- Can get +20% longer enchantments
All four of those are mitigated by the HoD sword, which gives +5 energy and can have either an armor mod, a fortitutde mod, or an enchanting mod. The HoD, however, eliminates many of the advantages that Wands/Foci have over Staves below, however.
Wand/Focus Advantages over Staves
-- Can get +2 more base Energy than Staves (either conditional or Nolani Wand/HoD)
-- Can get +27 more Energy than Staves with -2 Energy Regeneration
-- Can get 40% faster skill recharge (vs. only 20% for staves)
-- Can get 40% faster casting speed (vs. only 20% for staves)
Edited for Dark's comments about the +1 Staff Wrapping.
DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by Jetdoc
All four of those are mitigated by the HoD sword, which gives +5 energy and can have either an armor mod, a fortitutde mod, or an enchanting mod. The HoD, however, eliminates many of the advantages that Wands/Foci have over Staves below, however.
Wand/Focus Advantages over Staves -- Can get +2 more base Energy than Staves (either conditional or Nolani Wand/HoD) |
HoD sword gives +5 energy without a condition but unless you want to melee with it, you lose out on the wand damage. HoD swords are also expensive as you cant buy it from the NPC anymore.
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| -- Can get +27 more Energy than Staves with -2 Energy Regeneration |
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-- Can get 40% faster skill recharge (vs. only 20% for staves) -- Can get 40% faster casting speed (vs. only 20% for staves) |
If you want 40% faster skill AND 40% faster casting, you will need to sacrifice any extra bonus for W/F. Also the 40% faster casting is only for some special green wands/focus combination. From collectors W/F, you can only get 40% faster skill recharge.
It is more like a combined 36% actually rather than 40%.
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| -- Can get +1 to an attribute while using skills |
My rule on whether to go for a staff or a W/F combination depends on my build and selected skills on my skill bar. I determine if they would benefit much from the faster skill recharge and faster casting.
Also I determine if I need +20% extra enchant from staff if I carry enchantments and if I have skills from more than 1 skill tree on my skill bar.
W/F is more flexible as you can carry a wand that supports faster recharge on 1 skill tree while carrying a focus that supports faster recharge/casting on another skill tree. But if I am mainly using 1 skill tree on my skill bar, I would usually go for a staff, especially so if I carry an enchantment.
SirErnieMacGloop
FYI
the recharge and casting speed mods stack and work like this
assuming 20/20
60% normal cast
36% One mod kicks in (speed is 1/2)
4% both mods kick in (speed is 1/2 of 1/2 - or 1/4)
the recharge and casting speed mods stack and work like this
assuming 20/20
60% normal cast
36% One mod kicks in (speed is 1/2)
4% both mods kick in (speed is 1/2 of 1/2 - or 1/4)
Jetdoc
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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Also the 40% faster casting is only for some special green wands/focus combination. From collectors W/F, you can only get 40% faster skill recharge.
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Very good points, DarkSpirit. All in all, both Staves and Wands/Foci have four inherent mods, so the ones you choose sacrifice some other option.
My post above gives you what combinations are not available for either Staves or Wands/Foci.
Caelus The Fallen
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Originally Posted by SirErnieMacGloop
FYI
the recharge and casting speed mods stack and work like this assuming 20/20 60% normal cast 36% One mod kicks in (speed is 1/2) 4% both mods kick in (speed is 1/2 of 1/2 - or 1/4) |
Then its a 36% chance of *at least* one, of which 4% represents getting both:
64% normal cast
32% One mod kicks in (speed is 1/2)
4% both mods kick in (speed is 1/2 of 1/2 - or 1/4 [also, the jury is still out on this 1/4 thing... apparently, shouldnt be hard to test though])
so you were close, but slightly too optimistic.
SaintGreg
A combination I have been using for a little while now is:
low set: Flame Spitter and +45/-2 while enchanted shield
high set: Flame Spitter and focus
The 10% recharge from the flame spitter is enough for my purposes, and if I need the extra recharge I can swap up for 30%. Seems like the flame spitter is just more well-rounded than a wand since you can add +5 armor, or enchanting to it.
The only real drawback is the very low energy reservoir in the low set. If I need 12 sway it's 27 energy in the low set, and if I'm casting aegis, I need 17 sway so I use a -5 energy sword, which means the base is only 22 energy in the low set. I'm used to focus swapping alot, and this might not be as good as say a staff for the low set, and a +15/-1 focus in the high set, but it works for me. VS energy drainers the base energy doesn't matter since you will be pinned at the bottom of it anyways.
Darkspirit brings up some good points, but I disagree on the +1 attribute staff wrapping. Not only are they reasonably difficult to find 20% ones, they are also expensive. You cannot use them on a pvp character. It also means that you lose a potential enchanting or defense wrap. I think that a focus with either wand or sword provides the same potential benefits as the +1 staff wrapping, but with more options to mix and match bonuses.
low set: Flame Spitter and +45/-2 while enchanted shield
high set: Flame Spitter and focus
The 10% recharge from the flame spitter is enough for my purposes, and if I need the extra recharge I can swap up for 30%. Seems like the flame spitter is just more well-rounded than a wand since you can add +5 armor, or enchanting to it.
The only real drawback is the very low energy reservoir in the low set. If I need 12 sway it's 27 energy in the low set, and if I'm casting aegis, I need 17 sway so I use a -5 energy sword, which means the base is only 22 energy in the low set. I'm used to focus swapping alot, and this might not be as good as say a staff for the low set, and a +15/-1 focus in the high set, but it works for me. VS energy drainers the base energy doesn't matter since you will be pinned at the bottom of it anyways.
Darkspirit brings up some good points, but I disagree on the +1 attribute staff wrapping. Not only are they reasonably difficult to find 20% ones, they are also expensive. You cannot use them on a pvp character. It also means that you lose a potential enchanting or defense wrap. I think that a focus with either wand or sword provides the same potential benefits as the +1 staff wrapping, but with more options to mix and match bonuses.