Aegis Generator - Protection Mo/Me build

Xue Yi Liang

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Northern CA

Outlaws of the Water Margin

Mo/Me

14 Sep 2005 at 19:51 - 1

Despite the thread title, this build isn't all about perpetual Aegis but a balanced Pure Protection (no heal skills whatsoever) build that happens to have a strong Aegis.

This PvE Protector Mo/Me recipie has worked out for me nicely (with some minor variations). Attributes allocated to maximize Protection and Divine Favor - with some points left for Inspiration level ~10-11. Healing and Smite are 0. For the record I use Sup Protection, Sup Divine and Sup Vigor runes (but they're not really neccessary - the health penalty sacrifice is a matter of taste).

Blessed Aura - +30%-33% enchant duration. Add that to the +20% from the Yakslapper I carry
Aegis - 11 sec (probably closer to 17 sec with BA and weapon mod)
Shield of Regeneration (also enhanced in duration)
Reversal of Fortune
Draw Conditions
Remove Hex
Rebirth
Energy Tap

It's not all about the build but also how you use it. But, timed well, this is an effective package.

Aegis covers everyone for the majority of the time. I often open with Aegis with a follow-up Energy Tap. If the team is holding it together you can just focus on perpetuating Aegis - at 17 seconds there's not much down-time.
If you're doing a lot of casting and your energy gets low you might find yourself having to decide between throwing out the next Aegis vs. an SoR(and/or pulling off Blessed Aura for the extra energy pip.)

When Conditions are flying everywhere, then Draw Conditions works fast which paradoxically keeps your health up. You can keep gobbling up Conditions to your heart's delight. The DC healing is more than enough to counteract the negative pips you acquire. While you lack the means of dumping conditions from yourself it's no big deal as long as you keep your health up by using DC repeatedly or applying SoR to yourself, if necessary.

If a tank is getting clobbered at an alarming rate, hit him with SoR. But if SoR is recharging, then Reversal buys you time. If 2 tanks are starting to take serious damage then one gets SoR and the other gets Reversal.
With a high Protection attribute Reversal can be a nice spike healing "band-aid" when you're waiting for SoR or Remove Hex to recharge or if you're just low on energy.

It goes without saying that part of proper energy management is about not spamming blindly. If you become a Reversal-Maniac you will be left impotent in the end. Also SoD is used only when needed - it's not to be used prophylactically.

Timing Energy Tap can be a challenge. But if you're smart about budgeting your energy it's not really much of an issue.

That's one example of an effective protector IMO. It doesn't replace the role of a healer or healer/protector but it's pretty good at covering the bases and has some special benefits.

knives

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2005

USA

Grenths Rejects [GR]

Me/

14 Sep 2005 at 20:48 - 2

If it were me..

Draw conditions out for Mend Ailment
Remove Hex out for Smite Hex OR Protective Spirit

ElderAtronach

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

Mo/Me

14 Sep 2005 at 21:14 - 3

Echo > Shield of Regeneration for an "aegis generator"

Seriously.

With blessed aura and 16 DF, you can have 12 prot and still have a ~14 second aegis, and with Echo, it means you can basically have aegis up almost all the time.

Keure

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

14 Sep 2005 at 21:27 - 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xue Yi Liang
Despite the thread title, this build isn't all about perpetual Aegis but a balanced Pure Protection build that happens to have a strong Aegis.

This PvE Protector Mo/Me recipie has worked out for me nicely (with some minor variations). Attributes allocated to maximize Protection and Divine Favor - with some points left for Inspiration level ~10-11. Healing and Smite are 0. For the record I use Sup Protection, Sup Divine and Sup Vigor runes (but they're not really neccessary - the health penalty sacrifice is a matter of taste).

Blessed Aura - +30%-33% enchant duration. Add that to the +20% from the Yakslapper I carry
Aegis - 11 sec (probably closer to 17 sec with BA and weapon mod)
Shield of Regeneration (also enhanced in duration)
Reversal of Fortune
Draw Conditions
Remove Hex
Rebirth
Energy Tap

It's not all about the build but also how you use it. But, timed well, this is an effective package.

Aegis covers everyone for the majority of the time. I often open with Aegis with a follow-up Energy Tap. If the team is holding it together you can just focus on perpetuating Aegis - at 17 seconds there's not much down-time.
If you're doing a lot of casting and your energy gets low you might find yourself having to decide between throwing out the next Aegis vs. an SoR(and/or pulling off Blessed Aura for the extra energy pip.)

When Conditions are flying everywhere, then Draw Conditions works fast which paradoxically keeps your health up. You can keep gobbling up Conditions to your heart's delight. The DC healing is more than enough to counteract the negative pips you acquire. While you lack the means of dumping conditions from yourself it's no big deal as long as you keep your health up by using DC repeatedly or applying SoR to yourself, if necessary.

If a tank is getting clobbered at an alarming rate, hit him with SoR. But if SoR is recharging, then Reversal buys you time. If 2 tanks are starting to take serious damage then one gets SoR and the other gets Reversal.
With a high Protection attribute Reversal can be a nice spike healing "band-aid" when you're waiting for SoR or Remove Hex to recharge or if you're just low on energy.

It goes without saying that part of proper energy management is about not spamming blindly. If you become a Reversal-Maniac you will be left impotent in the end. Also SoD is used only when needed - it's not to be used prophylactically.

Timing Energy Tap can be a challenge. But if you're smart about budgeting your energy it's not really much of an issue.

That's one example of an effective protector IMO. It doesn't replace the role of a healer or healer/protector but it's pretty good at covering the bases and has some special benefits. I think Mend Ailment will be more beneficial than Draw Conditions as a prot monk - Draw only gives a means of moving conditions around.

Remove Hex is OK but with Inspiration 10 you may want to consider Inspired Hex - recharge is longer but you actually get some nice net energy gain so you can pump out those SoR/Aegis more often.

*edit* I should read better...PvE *slaps self*

Rossaroni

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

Knight Vision [KnV]

Mo/

14 Sep 2005 at 21:40 - 5

NightOwl

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2005

14 Sep 2005 at 22:31 - 6

Do Guardian and Aegis stack? Even if they do...you've already got 50% block chance from Aegis, which would be up the vast majority of the time...

Shatterstone

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2005

Krypt Keepers

E/Me

14 Sep 2005 at 22:51 - 7

question if ur PvEing by urself can u still cast draw conditions..just wondering if u could

Vindexus

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2005

www.talkingtonoobs.com

Final Dynasty

14 Sep 2005 at 23:17 - 8

Shield of Regen isn't that great. Martyr is more useful, so is Energy Drain. I'd go with Energy Drain because you only have the 3 pips of regen.

You need protective spirit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightOwl
Do Guardian and Aegis stack? Even if they do...you've already got 50% block chance from Aegis, which would be up the vast majority of the time... It would be half the time, not the majority.

Xue Yi Liang

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Northern CA

Outlaws of the Water Margin

Mo/Me

15 Sep 2005 at 00:31 - 9

As you can see there are a few atypical things about this build.
My old Protection builds always had Protect Spirit + Divine Boon, or Energy Drain instead of Tap etc ....

Not saying that the typical combos aren't good because I've gotten good mileage out of them but the underlying rationale behind this build is to allow for a maxed Protective Prayers and Divine Prayers attributes (keeping smite and heal at zero).

Quote:
Originally Posted by knives

Draw conditions out for Mend Ailment
Remove Hex out for Smite Hex OR Protective Spirit.

Mend Ailment (and Mend Condition) has a 3/4 second cast and 2 second recharge and removes one condition on one ally. Draw Conditions is a 1/4 second cast and a 1 second recharge and removes ALL conditions, plus it gives you 25 health for each condition removed. Until I actually tried it, I never thought DC was useful since you're taking on the conditions yourself. But it's actually very nifty.

The fact that you absorb these conditions isn't as problematic as you might think. Remember, the main thing about conditions isn't just the damage - it's stuff like Blind and Cripple that make your tanks instantly useless for a while. As a monk I don't care if I have blind or cripple on me if I'm casting from the back.

But talk is cheap - just try it and you'll see that this doesn't put you on some 2 second pip ride to death.

I might add - don't be so quick to cast SoR unless you have to. If I find myself afflicted with enough conditions and hexes to bury Godzilla, it's important to have SoR ready to apply to myself, if necessary.

Smite Hex - I use this in my solo build for Snake Dance to hit the Arcanists/Heretics - excellent for that purpose, but for a protector, the 1 second cast and 15 second recharge paralyses it for most of the fight. On top of that you now have to allocate attribute points to Smite. And losing some Divine or Protect attribute takes away from EVERYTHING else.

Quote: Originally Posted by ElderAtronach Echo > Shield of Regeneration for an "aegis generator yep. been there. done that. But this isn't all about the Aegis (see my first sentence). As I recall, echo-aegis sucks up a ton of energy - not that it's impossible to pull-off, but I didn't want to make the whole build around just Aegis. 17 seconds is long enough without having to lose more slots and energy to support it. But I could be wrong - show me a good echo-aegis that's energy-efficient and I'll be glad to give it a try.

The use of SoR has nothing to do with supporting Aegis - it's there to keep people alive.

Quote: Originally Posted by Keure I think Mend Ailment will be more beneficial than Draw Conditions as a prot monk - Draw only gives a means of moving conditions around.

Remove Hex is OK but with Inspiration 10 you may want to consider Inspired Hex - recharge is longer but you actually get some nice net energy gain so you can pump out those SoR/Aegis more often. Mend Ailment - see above.
I've used Inspired Hex in other prot builds and it's certainly a lot of fun to hurl stuff back at the enemy. But again, the long "recharge" is a tradeoff that compromises this monk's utility to the entire group. Also, Inspired Hex will return 12 energy and costs 5 to cast with a net return of 7 .... not that much. And the utility of grabbing the hex to use isn't always that great, in my opinion. I remember bringing Inspired Hex to UW and found myself wasting my time and energy just to pull Rust hex off of someone during each battle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rossaroni

WTH, a prot build without guardian???

If you're running Blessed Aura, Guardian, Aegis, etc. are pretty much requisite. I run a Mo/E for prot, for GLE + Aegis, then I run either Spell Breaker or Restore Condition as my elite, depending on how many heal monks are present, and if the area we're going into has lots of conditions (the healing from RC helps an awful lot in, say SF). Aegis has only a 30 sec. downtime, so that's only 2 guardians max you have to cast on any given target that's under extreme pressure.

Blessed Aura + Spell Breaker is really nice, too. Maybe not so good in general PvE, due to the inherent lack of organization you'll find in groups, but you could always use Peace & Harmony. I've only toyed with Guardian a little bit. I won't argue against it, and it's certainly food for thought.
But what would you remove from a build like this in order to accommodate it? It looks like you'd have to compromise some healing power, condition removal, hex removal or energy supply. At first glance it'd probably take an entirely different build in order to support Guardian... I'll have to experiment with it first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

Shield of Regen isn't that great. Martyr is more useful, so is Energy Drain. I'd go with Energy Drain because you only have the 3 pips of regen.

You need protective spirit. I think we can agree there's more than one way to skin a cat.

"Shield of Regen isn't that great"? uhh - please explain. I use it as an emergency lifesaver on someone with impending pip/spike death. SoR is like healing breeze on steroids that also tosses on 40 armor - so it's an effective remedy for both pip damage and spike damage. Remember, I'm using Blessed Aura (+32%) and a weapon mod (+20%) to extend the duration of its effect. The other nice thing is that it's a healing skill that works on Protection Prayers (which is maxed). Remember, my healing attribute is zero so I don't have Healing Breeze equipped.

If I didn't have SoR I'd hate to stand by as a tank's health comes crashing down from a stack of Mesmer hexes and all I have to offer is Reversal or Protective Spirit.

Martyr is nice. I've played with it a bit. But, in this case, I wouldn't want to lose SoR just for that convenience. When you try Draw Conditions you'll find that the cast and recharge times are so fast that it's not an inconvenience to use.

Energy Drain vs. Energy Tap - yeah. One of the most painful things about this build is giving up my beloved Energy Drain. But, all things considered, it's a worthy tradeoff.

I call this a balanced build because active spike damage can be addressed with Reversal and SoR. Pip degeneration can be remedied with SoR. You retain the ability to fix hexes and conditions. In fact the conditions can be stripped very fast with DC. With DC equipped, I actually look forward to stripping conditions because I get health spikes for it - the more conditions - the better. All this while allowing for Healing Skills = 0 and maxed Protective Prayers. The most effective enchants Aegis and SoR are prolonged with a good dose of Blessed Aura. The nice thing about it is that all the strengths work together.

Do I miss Protective Spirit? Not much. I used to use it with a healthy dose of divine boon to back me up - but that's just a different solution. Reversal of Fortune and/or SoR cover the bases nicely.

But talk is cheap (on my part) - give it a try and see if you like it.

Keure

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

15 Sep 2005 at 01:38 - 10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xue Yi Liang

Points noted, but I can't really agree until I know PvE circumstances (how often are your party members condition stacked with at least one debilitating condition, how often are DoT conditions thrown about to determine whether or not mend ailment is more efficient than draw conditions, are there roving interrupter monsters that can interrupt your mend ailment but cannot interrupt your draw conditions?). Then again I haven't played PvE seriously for awhile (and thus don't really remember all that much).

I also feel that analyzing skill choice for PvE like what I'm doing might be overkill, heh. *shrug* Just go with what works, I say - I don't think I'll argue anymore about this choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xue Yi Liang

I've used Inspired Hex in other prot builds and it's certainly a lot of fun to hurl stuff back at the enemy. But again, the long "recharge" is a tradeoff that compromises this monk's utility to the entire group. Also, Inspired Hex will return 12 energy and costs 5 to cast with a net return of 7 .... not that much. And the utility of grabbing the hex to use isn't always that great, in my opinion. I remember bringing Inspired Hex to UW and found myself wasting my time and energy just to pull one Rust hex off of someone. I wouldn't dismiss the Inspired Hex energy gain so quickly. Because you would have to use Remove Hex as the alternative, you lose 5 energy when you remove a hex (and heal the target for 40+ health). However, using Inspired Hex allows you to gain 7, meaning that for every time you use Inspired rather than Remove you end up with 12 more energy than you would have otherwise. That's another 2 RoF/condition remover and nearly another extended SoR/Aegis.

I also guess how much utility the Remove Hex recharge has in comparison to Inspired depends on what/how many hexes are being thrown about and how much hex protection your party has. Again I haven't played PvE seriously for awhile so I honestly don't remember but I would gauge it that way.

Xue Yi Liang

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Northern CA

Outlaws of the Water Margin

Mo/Me

15 Sep 2005 at 01:55 - 11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keure

I wouldn't dismiss the Inspired Hex energy gain so quickly. Because you would have to use Remove Hex as the alternative, you lose 5 energy when you remove a hex (and heal the target for 40+ health). However, using Inspired Hex allows you to gain 7, meaning that for every time you use Inspired rather than Remove you end up with 12 more energy than you would have otherwise. Good point about the energy. Noted.
But in PvE you're usually facing a greater number of enemies many of whom are equipped with identical skills. If you have an opponent who applies poison or bleeding - there could be 3-4 enemies out there hitting several party members with this - and more of them waiting to join. This means you often have to pull conditions from 3 or more party members repeatedly. And if the battle happens across a pond of poison water it's the same deal.

That's why the cast and recharge times are the decisive factor for DC - because you really need to use it repeatedly on multiple teammates over the course of a single battle.

Believe me, I've used Inspired Hex a lot in the past - and it can be a lot of fun. But in PvE I'd argue that it's just too darn slow to fix more than one or two people during the course of a battle. I'd rather be able to fix all of them multiple times. In those terms even Mend Ailment is a better skill to equip - all things considered.

shaolin purist

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Aug 2005

Pond of Serenity

Mo/Me

15 Sep 2005 at 13:00 - 12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xue Yi Liang

Believe me, I've used Inspired Hex a lot in the past - and it can be a lot of fun. But in PvE I'd argue that it's just too darn slow to fix more than one or two people during the course of a battle. I'd rather be able to fix all of them multiple times. In those terms even Mend Ailment is a better skill to equip - all things considered. Um...how can you consider replacing Inspired Hex with mend ailment? hex removal for condition removal would seem like a silly swap to make...
The other thing to bear in mind here is that if you miss the hex, ie. it's already expired/been removed by the time you use remove on it, with remove you have to wait 7 secs for the recharge anyway, not to mention the 2 secs wasted cast time, whereas inspired is instantly recharged if you mis the hex...if this happens 50% of the time (probably doesnt, but still) then you can still inspired almost as many hexes as u could remove in any given period...

Inspired: 1 sec cast, 20 sec replacement
Remove: 2 sec cast, 7 sec recharge

simple maths, im gonna ignore aftercast etc...

In 1 minute, asuming 33% of the time the hex is already gone by the time your remove has been cast:

Remove hex: 9 secs per cast/recharge = 7 casts, 2 of which have no effect (rounding failed casts down from 1/3) = 5 successful casts in 1 minute 3 seconds, net energy change -35

Inspired hex: 21 secs per cast/recharge= 3 casts, 1 of which fails, but recasting only adds ~1 second as it doesnt need to recharge = 3 casts in 1 minute 4 seconds net energy change +16 energy

All situational, but there's not as much difference as you would think...and honestly, i dont think assuming 1/3 remove hexes misses the target, especially give 2 sec cast time....not that you'd know if you had missed it...
Another factor worth considering is that in the time you cast remove you could cast inspired and another spell....

No real point here tbh, the OP's tried both and found remove to work better for purpose, just wanted to put a bit of perspective on it...

Xue Yi Liang

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Northern CA

Outlaws of the Water Margin

Mo/Me

15 Sep 2005 at 15:25 - 13

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaolin purist

Um...how can you consider replacing Inspired Hex with mend ailment? hex removal for condition removal would seem like a silly swap to make... 1. OMG. Did I say that? Major brainfart on my part!
I am sooo tempted to edit that post ... but I did say it, so I'll own up to it.
What can I say? It was late and I was sleep-deprived.
You're right. Thx.

Let me revise that comment. I meant I'd prefered Remove Hex over Inspired Hex. Let's just forget that last thing I said about Ailment ('cause my mind wandered over into conditions, for some reason)

2. Yes, you're right about the cast times. I really do hate the 2 second cast of Remove Hex - it's becoming a real pain. Like you said - that extra second is valuable casting time lost - even given the 20 second recharge. More often than not I'm finding myself frustrated by the 2 second cast. I had ruled out Inspired Hex because of my prior experience with a different build. But you've caused me to reconsider - I'll follow up if it works out.

Thx for pointing that out.

And to Keure, I'd give you points for bringing up Inspired Hex but it's the 1 second cast argument that just might win me over. But the energy plus would certainly be a nice juicy bonus in light of that.
Thx for your input!

Xue Yi Liang

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Northern CA

Outlaws of the Water Margin

Mo/Me

15 Sep 2005 at 18:34 - 14

Update: I tried using Inspired Hex in place of Remove Hex and I like it!
Inspired Hex is better - the cast time and energy outweigh the 20 second recharge.
thx

Vindexus

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2005

www.talkingtonoobs.com

Final Dynasty

15 Sep 2005 at 19:01 - 15

Xue Yi Liang

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Northern CA

Outlaws of the Water Margin

Mo/Me

15 Sep 2005 at 19:44 - 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

We used SoR in FnlD for a bit, but concluded the recharge was too long to make it that great. You cast it, they change targets and your Elite isn't in effect anymore. If you use Energy Drain, it's not like the enemy switching targets is going to make you lose all the energy your elite gained you. The recharge would be a problem if you used SoR the way a healer might use Healing Breeze. That's not how I use it.

Most of the time I'm making sparing use of Reversal (for spike dmg), DC and Inspired Hex (pip dmg). SoR is reserved for the times I can't keep up on a player rapidly approaching death - or for myself if I'm covered in conditions/hexes and/or am being attacked directly.

Vindexus

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2005

www.talkingtonoobs.com

Final Dynasty

15 Sep 2005 at 22:23 - 17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xue Yi Liang

The recharge would be a problem if you used SoR the way a healer might use Healing Breeze. That's not how I use it.

Most of the time I'm making sparing use of Reversal (for spike dmg), DC and Inspired Hex (pip dmg). SoR is reserved for the times I can't keep up on a player rapidly approaching death - or for myself if I'm covered in conditions/hexes and/or am being attacked directly. Using SoR at the right times doesn't reduce it's recharge; it's still going to be a problem.

Xue Yi Liang

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Northern CA

Outlaws of the Water Margin

Mo/Me

15 Sep 2005 at 22:54 - 18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

Using SoR at the right times doesn't reduce it's recharge; it's still going to be a problem.

LOL - then we'll agree to disagree.

Sure, I'd love to have something that charges faster, but most times I don't have to use SoR more than once or twice during one battle (sometimes never). By the time I even think of using it again it's ready to go. This claim isn't just a presumption but is based on my experience (so far) in using it.

Now I can see how this would be a big problem for someone whose thought is to keep everyone at 100% all the time - but I usually aim to keep everyone at 99%. That philosophical distinction prevents me from starving for energy and keeps me from running into problems with SoR.

Were there times where I did need to use it while it's recharging? Absolutely! I'd be FOS if I claimed that never happened - but it hasn't happened very often in my experience. It sounds like your experience was different. Besides, I have other skills I can apply while it's recharging.
Is it perfect? Of course not. I never made that claim.

FYI. Every existing build is a matter of balancing tradeoffs. Would I prefer to use a 9 point Healing Breeze in place of the SoR to counter a stack of pip degeneration? (Just in order to accommodate Energy Drain as my Elite?) Sure. But it ain't gonna happen because this is a pure Protector Monk build. Could I leave SoR out altogether? Well, I'd like to preserve some ability to do some healing (through Protection Prayers) rather than leave it all up to a healing monk in the party.

The issue here, it seems, is whether or not the recharge for SoR makes it impractical to the point of uselessness - and that's simply not true. What would you substitute for SoR in order to counteract a big stack of pip damage? Chances are you're gonna have to use a Healing-Prayers skill. In that case you'll have to start allocating points toward Healing Prayers in order to make it work - Now we're talking about a whole different build entirely - a mixed build instead of pure protect.

If it doesn't work for you then thanks for trying it. Nobody's claiming this is the best thing since sliced bread - it's one solution among many. Could you show me the skillbar for the Protector you'd use instead?

Hanuman li Tosh

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2005

garden of the gods, CO

Over Powered

15 Sep 2005 at 23:02 - 19

nah, not so wise. you can have constant ageis up yes, but only noobs dont bring enchanment removals so when it gets stripped/stolen 3 seconds into it youre waiting 17 seconds till its up again.

JYX

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2005

15 Sep 2005 at 23:04 - 20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xue Yi Liang

LOL - then we'll agree to disagree.

Sure, I'd love to have something that charges faster, but most times I don't need to use it more than once or twice during one battle.

I know its rude to butt in but...I don't agree to that at all ^^;

Quote: Originally Posted by Xue Yi Liang Every existing build is a matter of balancing tradeoffs. Would I like to be able to use a 9 point Healing Breeze in place of the SoR to counter a stack of pip degeneration? (Just in order to accommodate Energy Drain as my Elite?) Sure. But it ain't gonna happen because this is a pure Protector Monk build. Could I leave SoR out altogether? Well, I'd like to preserve some ability to do some healing (through Protection Prayers) rather than leave it all up to a healing monk in the party. So you want a Pure protector monk with healing abilities?...I'm just going to ignore the obvious zings for a minute and focus on:
Whats wrong with boon?

Quote: Originally Posted by Xue Yi Liang

The issue here, it seems, is whether or not the recharge for SoR makes it impractical to the point of uselessness - and that's simply not true. What would you substitute for SoR in order to counteract a big stack of pip damage? Chances are you're gonna have to use a Healing-Prayers skill. In that case you'll have to start allocating points toward Healing Prayers in order to make it work - Now we're talking about a whole different build entirely - a mixed build instead of pure protect. I'm trying real hard to put away those zings. Lets talk hexes in general: convert is in protection: someone on your 8 man team wants to pack a convert at some point. As for degen...I'm okay with that, again, no need to use my elite when a little booning goes a long way. Besides...I have faith in my healers...when I'm in a build that dosen't require boon protecting...I let them do their job...why? Because that elite will go a long way elsewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xue Yi Liang

If it doesn't work for you then thanks for trying it. Nobody's claiming this is the best thing since sliced bread - it's one solution among many. Could you show me the skillbar for the Protector you'd use instead? Now that depends entirely on how bad you wanna see it :P

...oh and...the occasion you need it for. Pure protector? When da merde hits da fan...I really don't see any need for an all protect build to sacrifice his elite on Shield of Regeneration.

Xue Yi Liang

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Northern CA

Outlaws of the Water Margin

Mo/Me

15 Sep 2005 at 23:10 - 21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanuman li Tosh

nah, not so wise. you can have constant ageis up yes, but only noobs dont bring enchanment removals so when it gets stripped/stolen 3 seconds into it youre waiting 17 seconds till its up again. This is a PvE build - please read the first post

Vindexus

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2005

www.talkingtonoobs.com

Final Dynasty

15 Sep 2005 at 23:11 - 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xue Yi Liang

What would you substitute for SoR in order to counteract a big stack of pip damage? I'd rather use removal skills, like Mend Ailment, Smite Hex, or Martyr.

Xue Yi Liang

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Northern CA

Outlaws of the Water Margin

Mo/Me

15 Sep 2005 at 23:31 - 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Everous

I know its rude to butt in but...I don't agree to that at all ^^;

No it's not rude. This is a forum. Fire away!
Quote:

Originally Posted by Everous

Whats wrong with boon? Nothing's wrong with Boon. I love Boon. I have other mixed and pure builds that use it quite effectively. But, in this case, I was trying to support my Blessed Aura. If I were using Boon I'd lose a pip and 2 points of energy with each cast. Since I'm working mainly with short casts - Removal, Draw Conditions I'll be out of energy in no time. How do I know? I tried it.

I still use Divine Boon in other monk builds, though. Since they eliminated the attribute refund it's no big deal to try different builds for each mission.
Quote: Originally Posted by Everous I'm trying real hard to put away those zings. What's a "zing"?
Quote: Originally Posted by Everous

Lets talk hexes in general: convert is in protection: someone on your 8 man team wants to pack a convert at some point. As for degen...I'm okay with that, again, no need to use my elite when a little booning goes a long way. Besides...I have faith in my healers...when I'm in a build that dosen't require boon protecting...I let them do their job...why? Because that elite will go a long way elsewhere. I hope you realize that we're talking PvE here. My use of SoR isn't meant to reflect my faith in healers (though you never know with PUGs) but I also use it on myself if I can't handle the conditions I've accumulated plus the pounding I'm getting from some Summit Dwarf in front of me.
Also it's just my personal proclivity to retain, even a limited healing capacity, to assist the dedicated healer if need be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Everous

Now that depends entirely on how bad you wanna see it :P No. LOL You can keep your secret locked up next to the Lost Ark of the Covenant.

I only asked because someone seemed to make the argument that SoR can be replaced with something else in this build. Unless you're talking about a different build altogether I don't see what you'd substitute for SoR.

Quote: Fair point about the lack of big damage spikes in PvE... and I agree the enchant extension makes Guardian better, plus I have been running only 11 in Prot, so it's usefulness is greatly reduced. Your build here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Everous

...oh and...the occasion you need it for. Pure protector? When da merde hits da fan...I really don't see any need for an all protect build to sacrifice his elite on Shield of Regeneration. Why not? If I understand correctly you'd rather just leave out any ability to fix pip damage and rely entirely on your healers to do the job. I just don't have that much faith in PUG healers.

cookiehoarder

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

Melbourne, Florida.

[HTR]

15 Sep 2005 at 23:41 - 24

No rebirth

Xue Yi Liang

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Northern CA

Outlaws of the Water Margin

Mo/Me

15 Sep 2005 at 23:53 - 25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

I'd rather use removal skills, like Mend Ailment, Smite Hex, or Martyr. The advantage of SoR is that I can cast it once on the fella in trouble - then turn my attention towards someone else.
If it's pip degeneration from conditions Mend Ailment only strips one of them. DC will take them all out.

What I like about SoR is it's flexibility. Yes there are skills that are better at fixing pip degeneration, spike damage, conditions or hexes - but SoR works for most things when you're in a tight spot. It's not perfect but it's not as lousy as some people think, either.

Xue Yi Liang

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Northern CA

Outlaws of the Water Margin

Mo/Me

15 Sep 2005 at 23:55 - 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookiehoarder

No rebirth take a look at the first post again. It's there.

Vindexus

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2005

www.talkingtonoobs.com

Final Dynasty

16 Sep 2005 at 05:26 - 27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xue Yi Liang

It's not perfect but it's not as lousy as some people think, either. I'll give you that.

JYX

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2005

16 Sep 2005 at 06:36 - 28

Yeah, if you're boon protecting...its pretty much a given that your elite will go into E management. If you're mesmer secondary, you HAVE to take drain and then inspired hex for hex removal...luckily most enemies appear to have infinite energy...or at least...tons. Still...IMO a small price to pay for both good healing and protection.

Mr Jazzy

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Cali

Mending For The [win]

W/A

16 Sep 2005 at 06:37 - 29

if the blocking thing is the whole element of the aegis generator, i would say change to an ele secondary and use wards

Divineshadows

No power in the verse

Join Date: Sep 2005

San Francisco, CA

16 Sep 2005 at 16:58 - 30

Xue,

Let me start by saying thanks for the idea on a pure protection build. You are absolutely correct on SoR as a good elite that is very flexible in its uses. I had usually been running with most points in protection and divine favor but a few in healing so I could use healing touch and restore life.

Now I run an almost identical skillbar to the one you suggested, but some differences to account for my own style and the fact that I am Mo/E not Mo/Me. Also, it is important to note that I have 13 protection and 16 divine favor (2 superior runes is impractical) -- echantments last really long. I swap out remove hex for shielding hands (and let someone else in the party who is not a monk deal with hex removal), swap out energy tap for divine spirit, and swap out draw conditions for mend condition. Monks simply don't have the best hex removal in this game.

The divine spirit is very useful with blessed aura and the yakslapper to cast near the beginning of the battle to save energy when casting aegis, shielding hands, reversal of fortune, and mend condition. I prefer mend condition, because:

- I don't seem to have a problem with getting interrupted on a 2 second cast
- The healing boost at 13 protection from mend condition and 16 divine favor makes it like an orison that removes a condition -- perhaps the best feature.
- I'm usually not in the middle of the battle so conditions happen on me less often.
- It actually gets rid of a condition.
- The 2 second cast actually gives me time to survey the situation and queue up some other spells.
- Condition stacks are rare in PvE so I do not see the point of mend ailment in PvE -- only get healing bonuses if conditions are stacked.
- SoR and the healing monk have my back if I am suffering horrible conditions.

For those people that were arguing for guardian, shielding hands is way more effective despite the long recharge time. It reduces damage from all types of damage. Guardian just blocks attacks. Sure you can put guardian on multiple people, but reversal of fortune can be given to those that don't have the shielding hands. Plus shielding hands is way more useful for stupid NPCs like Stonekin in SF (first attempt was successful due to this useful spell). Only thing to note on shielding hands is that it doesn't combine well with reversal of fortune when cast on the same person.

The best thing about a pure protection monk in PvE is that there are less protection monks than healing monks (just like 70% of eles seem to be fire). This is logical because lots of healing skills are aquired early and people resist change. When forming a group of 8, find another monk that is pure healing and divine favor and you won't step on each others toes too much (problem with 2 or more healing monks is same targets getting healed resulting in waste of energy). Only thing that is tough to coordinate is having the healing monk cast something like orison instead of breeze when someone is getting spiked, since you want to put SoR on that person.

With one good healing monk and this protection build this is all you should need in PvE. Just make sure some other party member has hex removal for late parts of PvE. Why do I see groups looking for 3 monks for some parts of the game? This is just absurd. Take 6 non-monks to deal more damage, do interrupts, set traps, raise minions, etc.

Vexed Arcanist

Banned

Join Date: Sep 2005

Ring of Steel

Mo/

16 Sep 2005 at 19:41 - 31

I have been, over the days since the Update, trying out all sorts of pure protection and even some hybrid prot/heal variations using henchman as guinea pigs, in Grenth's Footprint and some of Sorrow's Furnace.

What folks should keep in mind is not every PvE build is:

1. Suited to your play needs or goals.
2. Suited to your current area of exploration/mission/PvP

To continue, this build is good as first listed for Grenth's, though I agree with many that Guardian is a very good spell for pure Prot. I also find Aegis a tad over cost and under timed, even with Yakslapper+Aura. I am typically a stalwart fan of Mend Ailment, but I will give DC another go. Hex removal in Grenth's is a waste of time and energy. Who cares if you use Inspired Hex for energy gain, you are just gonna spend more energy healing off the newly applied hex that is immediately cast after you remove it.

The problem with pure protection builds and energy management is most energy management requires attribute points elsewhere, thus diluting the build. Offering of Blood and Energy Drain or solid staple energy management tools, both requiring about 9 to be effective. Peace and Harmony is good if you want to stay away from secondary profession energy management and all your spells target allies (thus no Aegis). P&H is bad to test with henchman who require you to attack, in most cases, before they will. It is also subject to Shatter Enchantment, used by Arcanists. It works with enchantment extenders like 20% wraps, so it is a solid choice for the non-Aegis protectioner. Blessed Signet is good if you run many maintained enchantments. In the end your best mileage comes from a Blood Necro in your group using either Blood Ritual or Blood is Power.

Divine Boon
Peace and Harmony
Reversal of Fortune
Guardian
Draw Conditions/Mend Ailment
Shield of Regeneration
Blessed Aura
Res of choice

I am going to give this a try, it is already almost exactly like a test I have done, just not sure if I had these exact spells during that test. I prefer DBoon/RoF for major healing, and since I test with 5 man (4 hench, Mhenlo as stock healer, myself as Protectioner) I need to be able to drop solid heals off Guardian/Mend Ailment(Draw Conditions)/RoF.

[edit to add]

I am obviously touched, I can't possibly test P&H *and* Shield of Regeneration. Now I am torn over energy management or a solid Protection based Healing Breeze.

Yamat

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

San Diego, USA

16 Sep 2005 at 19:53 - 32

Vexed Arcanist

Banned

Join Date: Sep 2005

Ring of Steel

Mo/

16 Sep 2005 at 20:15 - 33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamat

I've used Guardian before in both Arena and PvE and find it to be... lacking. It ends up being another 5 energy spam spell to get Divine Boon/Divine Favor healing on someone, rather than actually doing anything in it's own right (at Prot 11). I swapped it out and took Protective Spirit instead, even though replacing it with a 10 energy spell can be energy painful, Prot Spirit is just a damn good spell!

Are there people out there who prefer DC over Mend Ailment? The enchantment extension of Blessed Aura and 20% off Yakslapper (or any other modified enchanting item) will give you about 7 seconds or so of Guardian protection. Honestly, outside of PvP and areas like UW, rarely will things hit you for more than 10% health in one hit. At 10 energy I have found Prot Spirit lacking.

With max Prot, DBoon and about 50%+ enchantment extension, Guardian works well for me. Normally I put it on the squishy allies. Rarely does Aegis pay off, unless every member on your team is being attacked, in PvE mobs go for the weakest targets and switch as needed. I simply have come to prefer Guardian.

Divineshadows

No power in the verse

Join Date: Sep 2005

San Francisco, CA

16 Sep 2005 at 21:06 - 34

I'll look into replacing aegis with guardian to test the effectiveness -- still keeping shielding hands though.

Xue Yi Liang

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Northern CA

Outlaws of the Water Margin

Mo/Me

16 Sep 2005 at 21:38 - 35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexed Arcanist

Rarely does Aegis pay off, unless every member on your team is being attacked, in PvE mobs go for the weakest targets and switch as needed. I simply have come to prefer Guardian. I'll be sure to give Guardian a try.
BTW I've developed the same opinion about Protective Spirit. I hardly ever use it anymore.

Vexed Arcanist

Banned

Join Date: Sep 2005

Ring of Steel

Mo/

17 Sep 2005 at 00:04 - 36

I have done a brief bit of testing and now I agree with the original Draw Conditions. However I tend to prefer Divine Boon/RoF/DC/Guardian healing, a spike protection healer basically. Since I have an issue giving up Divine Boon, and since I am torn on using or not using Blessed Aura (if I don't use it I go with maintained enchantments), I use Blessed Signet for energy management. With only Divine Boon and Blessed Aura this equates to a paltry 6 energy gain from a 3 second cast Signet. However, it requires NO resources. I don't need a corpse, I don't need energy. I can use before, during and after a fight. Is it worth the spell bar slot....well....

16 Prot
13 Divine Favor

Divine Boon
Reversal of Fortune
Guardian
Draw Conditions
Peace and Harmony {E}
Contemplation of Purity
Blessed Aura
Res of choice

Replacing Shield of Regeneration (since the OP was using it as a self Healing Breeze to handle nasty conditions drawn via DC) with Contemplation of Purity. Snap heals you and removes hexes and so forth, for FIVE energy. I was having an issue with 15 energy, obviously as a Boon Spike Protection Healer (BSPH?

Rossaroni

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

Knight Vision [KnV]

Mo/

17 Sep 2005 at 07:46 - 37

About Guardian in your original build: substitute Energy Drain for Tap, then Guardian for Shield of Regeneration. The only shield spell I like is Shield of Judgement, which is good because it actually cuts damage down with the knockdown plus all the damage it deals out.

I just love Guardian. Aegis is 50%, Guardian is another 50%, which means you're halving all hits twice--75% attack damage reduction. Anyways, whatever.

MY favorite prot build goes something like this:

Blessed Aura
Reversal of Fortune
Aegis (11 + 2 + 3 = 16 or 17 seconds)
Glyph of Lesser Energy (For Aegis)
Guardian (5 + 1 + 2 = 8 seconds)
Peace and Harmony/Restore Condition/Spell Breaker (huge P&H, 16-17 on SB)
Shielding Hands (16-17 seconds)
Rez Signet (you shouldn't stop for more than 3 seconds in a battle to rez, so no hard rez)

With a 20% enchanting wrapping, the numbers look like what I have in parentheses. The first number is from the wrapping, second from Blessed Aura at 14 DF. Most important thing: You only have 3 pips of regen, and your enchantments are lasting way longer than usual, so make an effort to spread out your protection. Don't just jump on a target on first damage--wait for him to get locked onto.

About Aegis's effectiveness: With GLE, you're spending 5 energy on the spell, and it's lasting for roughly 2x the length of Guardian, plus it hits 8 targets. That means you don't have to worry about the rangers in SF switching targets on you, which they tend to do at the most annoying times. Downside: when your Aegis hits a fast recharge proc from your staff, you'll be waiting for GLE.

Ever since I got my Yakslapper, I've been running enchantment-heavy builds with Blessed Aura, whether it's healing, prot, or smiting (although smiting is always enchantment-heavy).

Vexed Arcanist

Banned

Join Date: Sep 2005

Ring of Steel

Mo/

17 Sep 2005 at 14:45 - 38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rossaroni

MY favorite prot build goes something like this:

Blessed Aura
Reversal of Fortune
Aegis (11 + 2 + 3 = 16 or 17 seconds)
Glyph of Lesser Energy (For Aegis)
Guardian (5 + 1 + 2 = 8 seconds)
Peace and Harmony/Restore Condition/Spell Breaker (huge P&H, 16-17 on SB)
Shielding Hands (16-17 seconds)
Rez Signet (you shouldn't stop for more than 3 seconds in a battle to rez, so no hard rez)
You must be talking PvP? Res signet is a one shot deal for a long time in most PvE situations and the monk shouldn't be ressing in battle period.

P&H is broken as soon as you cast Aegis. P&H is no good with an Aegis build and it breaks when you cast your Glyph or Aegis. You list spell breaker so I am assuming this is some sort of PvP build, while in Grenth's it could be useful, I have considered it, it just doesn't look so hot for PvE.

I believe your math is off on Guardian's time extension. It's +1 sec for 20% and +1.5 if you have 30% on your Blessed Aura. I don't think the game rounds time up for enchantments, it's fixed, so 7.5. If your Blessed is 32% then 7.6.

Yamat

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

San Diego, USA

17 Sep 2005 at 18:15 - 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexed Arcanist

The enchantment extension of Blessed Aura and 20% off Yakslapper (or any other modified enchanting item) will give you about 7 seconds or so of Guardian protection. Honestly, outside of PvP and areas like UW, rarely will things hit you for more than 10% health in one hit. At 10 energy I have found Prot Spirit lacking.

With max Prot, DBoon and about 50%+ enchantment extension, Guardian works well for me. Normally I put it on the squishy allies. Rarely does Aegis pay off, unless every member on your team is being attacked, in PvE mobs go for the weakest targets and switch as needed. I simply have come to prefer Guardian.

16 Prot
13 Divine Favor

Divine Boon
Reversal of Fortune
Guardian
Draw Conditions
Peace and Harmony {E}
Contemplation of Purity
Blessed Aura
Res of choice Seems interesting. How is energy management? I have been going 11/10/10 so I can have 10 in energy management (Energy Drain and Inspired Hex). Have you tried this build in PvP?

Any issues with having no Hex removal for party members?

I'm going to try your build today.

**Edit: I didn't like it. First off, I ran a slight variation, 16 DF and 13 Prot to get better heals. Contemplation of Purity is not good with this build. You have 3 enchantments running, and stripping them off to remove hexes/conditions from yourself is bad. You immediately need to recast them, spending 20 energy, and found energy management difficult with this build, as P&H was stripped a lot (playing in Grenth's).

I thought having no hex removal would be bad, but didn't find it to be too debilitating. Draw Conditions worked well, but I think you want Mend Ailment in place of Contemplation of Purity to self-heal/remove condtions after drawing them.

This build won't work in PvP. Backfire, Diversion... hexes will kill you.

Vexed Arcanist

Banned

Join Date: Sep 2005

Ring of Steel

Mo/

17 Sep 2005 at 22:46 - 40

I don't PvP much with a monk, I got a bit tired of being prime target, so I can't say anything about the builds or variations I have brought up as far as PvP goes.

I used Contemplation of Purity as an emergency release valve, much as the original post did with Shield of Regeneration. If I had to do an emergency strip I only rebuffed Boon to get back to spike prot healing. Overall you really don't need Blessed Aura, with any of the builds. It really isn't necessary, but I was testing out many things.

I looked at PvE Mo/Me energy tap and energy drain. Even with 10 inspiration the only advantage to these over blessed signet is casting time and 1 energy. Now in Grenth's I often get Rust on me from the Siege Golems, in that situation Blessed Signet is absolutely HORRID. 9 seconds to use it....

Overall I don't get anymore mileage out of these builds we have been discussing over something like DBoon/RoF/Guardian/Mend Ailment/Blessed Signet/Life Bond/Essence Bond/Res of Choice. I try to test and play with 2 monks in any standard group, from 5-8 in size. I can honestly say, all testing I have done, I simply prefer a normal DBoon Prot Spike healer OR Pure healer.

Back to your Q about energy management. P&H was problematic in the worst of battles when I played my prot monk near the end of the game (last 3 missions). This was why my Healer went with OoB (after discovering it's strength with my Necro). As for Inspired Hex, as I pointed out in a previous post you end up spending that gained energy to cast another heal or whatnot because in places like Grenth's, that player is immediately re-hexed. I used it with my Mesmer in Grenths and due to the fast hex spamming I could rarely catch Crippling Anguish before it was covered by at least Conjure Phantasm if not also Life Siphon (my mesmer was illusion so I could throw Crippling right back after lifting it). In PvP, Inspired Hex is a solid choice. Very solid.