In a GvG tonight, the opposing team made it into our base and spawn camped our rez. At about 1 sec before rez, the wards went up right on the pad. Then they bodyblocked so we couldn't get off the pad. Then AoE. Then death. 3x this happened.
I know its possible therefore its not cheating persay. But is this the close relative to ganking? And how would you counter this? Don't be a butt and say 'dont die'.
Good or bad sportsmanship...you decide.
Sereng Amaranth
Arcador
Ressurect camping was always a problem. In the Frag map in Random and Team arena they fixed it with multiply points, but still in gvg. Maybe some sort of 10 secs of invincibilty when ressed (and in the area - leaving drops the invicb.)
Navaros
stuff like always happens. if a player can exploit it, it will be exploited
last time i was in HoH, my party won the round. but we didn't really win because the other party had one ranger left alive who kept interrupting our Hero from capping the Altar. hence even though our team was the only one left alive and we had pretty much decimated all the other parties, and our Ghost was ontop of the Altar exclusively for the last 3 minutes of the round, suddenly my party was deemed to have "lost" due to our Ghost being constantly interrupted from capping the Altar
i don't blame the players though. i blame the devs. if it can be legally done in the game, then it's not a player's fault for doing it. the devs need to patch out exploits like these.
last time i was in HoH, my party won the round. but we didn't really win because the other party had one ranger left alive who kept interrupting our Hero from capping the Altar. hence even though our team was the only one left alive and we had pretty much decimated all the other parties, and our Ghost was ontop of the Altar exclusively for the last 3 minutes of the round, suddenly my party was deemed to have "lost" due to our Ghost being constantly interrupted from capping the Altar
i don't blame the players though. i blame the devs. if it can be legally done in the game, then it's not a player's fault for doing it. the devs need to patch out exploits like these.
Sereng Amaranth
And the bad part about it is that we are a new guild. That was our 3rd GvG. I am the only one that has had GvG experience before this guild. The other guild was basically a veteran mashup in a new guild with a rating low enough to meet up with our Rating 1002 guild.
Also, we had 3 henchies, lol. It was 2 people's first GvG and 2 other's 3rd match. 20 seconds after the first skill was used I knew we would lose. After the first decimation of our team, I complimented them in all chat. Then one of our team made the fatal mistake of fighting too close to our gate. They rush in and camp our pad. Game over.
I then complimented them on their forum strategy.
Also, we had 3 henchies, lol. It was 2 people's first GvG and 2 other's 3rd match. 20 seconds after the first skill was used I knew we would lose. After the first decimation of our team, I complimented them in all chat. Then one of our team made the fatal mistake of fighting too close to our gate. They rush in and camp our pad. Game over.
I then complimented them on their forum strategy.
PieXags
...well there's always porn when you can't do anything else.
...right?
(Kidding, kidding!)
...right?
(Kidding, kidding!)
Bast
Yeah, porn ftw.
Lag Hell
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PieXags
...well there's always porn when you can't do anything else.
...right? |
UltimaXtreme
ward of foes + duel smite on a relic map = gg
Dax
Yes, I remember hearing alot of folks say "If it's there, it's meant to be done" so there ya go.
Grigori Sokolov
omg lol I just realized that was us..
Sorry if you felt that was a gank, we wanted to make sure you didnt come up behind us when we were killing the guild lord. Morale is really everything in a gvg..
and yes we did reform our guild due to a problem with the name. Were higher ranked now, so dont worry about fighting us again..
Sorry if you felt that was a gank, we wanted to make sure you didnt come up behind us when we were killing the guild lord. Morale is really everything in a gvg..
and yes we did reform our guild due to a problem with the name. Were higher ranked now, so dont worry about fighting us again..
Sanji
There will be people and teams that are going to use every dirty trick in the book to win in a competitive environment. Realize that online games with random matching services or tournament ladders are going to more often than not pit you against people who are playing to win.
It is Anet's job to enforce what methods of play are allowed through game mechanics. Any additional ideas of what people should or shouldn't do are entirely your own and are irrelevent. I am not saying that it is a bad thing to have good sportsmanship in a competitive game, far from it. However, it's not as effective in winning games as in winning friends. I do think it's important to balance playing for fun and playing for blood, but it's also just as important to do so without expectations of it being reciprocated when playing against anonymous competitors.
It is Anet's job to enforce what methods of play are allowed through game mechanics. Any additional ideas of what people should or shouldn't do are entirely your own and are irrelevent. I am not saying that it is a bad thing to have good sportsmanship in a competitive game, far from it. However, it's not as effective in winning games as in winning friends. I do think it's important to balance playing for fun and playing for blood, but it's also just as important to do so without expectations of it being reciprocated when playing against anonymous competitors.
Ollj
problem solves self once you got 60 DP.
Dax
Yes there are alot of people that camp a spawn or rez point on pupose, but alot of honest players an do it just be being caught up in the moment of battle. You (or rather developers) can't expect players to be 100% fair all the time in the heat of battle.
I agree that it's really up to the developers to adress what's fair or not if things get out of hand. Like the saying goes, "All's fair in love and war". As far as the fun factor is concerned, people have all different ideas of what's fun...for some unfortunately it's taking cheap shots at opposing players.
I agree that it's really up to the developers to adress what's fair or not if things get out of hand. Like the saying goes, "All's fair in love and war". As far as the fun factor is concerned, people have all different ideas of what's fun...for some unfortunately it's taking cheap shots at opposing players.
Owen
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Originally Posted by Navaros
suddenly my party was deemed to have "lost" due to our Ghost being constantly interrupted from capping the Altar.
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Seems like a perfectly sound strategy to me. You can't win if you don't cap so anything I can do to keep you from capping seems fair and seeing as how interrupts are a staple of the Ranger that tactic seems in no way 'cheap'.
Sounds like you simply got owned by a Ranger who knew what he was doing and you're sore about it.
And yes, spawn camping has been a problem since the very idea of 'respawning' in multiplayer games and unlike interrupts I don't consider that to be a natural part of the game therefore the devs should fix it (they've already admited it's a problem and not a design intention by fixing it on other maps.)
And good for you and your Guild Grigori Sokolov way to feel proud about ascending the ranks via rampant use of an exploit.
Martina
Oh I dunno there, Owen. Exploit is not really a valid description on what they did. More like "taking advantage of a game design flaw". This tactic is no more an exploit than spirit spammers used to be.. or El/Mo Smiters.. or runners.
Sereng Amaranth
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Originally Posted by Grigori Sokolov
omg lol I just realized that was us..
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Quote:
| Sorry if you felt that was a gank, we wanted to make sure you didnt come up behind us when we were killing the guild lord. Morale is really everything in a gvg.. |
Quote:
| and yes we did reform our guild due to a problem with the name. Were higher ranked now, so dont worry about fighting us again.. |
secretsmg
That is a valid strategy and I don't see anything wrong with it. The res shrine is part of the gamescape and competitive guilds will always take advantage of it. You have a few secs after you res where you're invulverable to protect against instant ganking. Anyone remaining alive on your team should also go down to protect the people who are resing when the timer goes close to the even minute marks.
Lexar
No offense, but making it hard on your teammates after they lost a match they had no chance to win anyway, that's not very good sportsmanship either. Part of good sportsmanship is at least acting like a worthy opponent, thus not insulting their skill by bringing henchmen.
I don't think you should start doing GvG with relatively new people to guildwars. If you don't have a feel for your team yet, get to know them in the tombs or arenas. Start thinking about GvG when you have 8 people online regularly.
I don't think you should start doing GvG with relatively new people to guildwars. If you don't have a feel for your team yet, get to know them in the tombs or arenas. Start thinking about GvG when you have 8 people online regularly.
cookiehoarder
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Originally Posted by UltimaXtreme
ward of foes + duel smite on a relic map = gg
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MarkyX
If a rival guild is even CLOSE enough to do that..
Well, they deserve the win.
Well, they deserve the win.
Arathorn5000
It's not like their team wouldn't have won *anyway*. If they wiped your whole team, there's little to no chance that you will miraculously turn the battle around later, when you all have DP no less...
Grigori Sokolov
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Originally Posted by Sereng Amaranth
what was your old name?
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The reason we camped is to DP you until being flanked wouldnt be a problem while killing the guild lord. Remember, we beat you fair and square in the first encounter. It wasnt like we snuck up on you or anything...
ManadartheHealer
Quit complaining about a little spawn camping.
During the PvPx weekend, there were a ton of guilds that seemed to be created just to rush and farm quick faction for gvg. The most annoying build went something like this:
A couple monks
6 W/E
They used speed-boosting stances, charge, ward against foes, grasping earth....you get the picture
During the PvPx weekend, there were a ton of guilds that seemed to be created just to rush and farm quick faction for gvg. The most annoying build went something like this:
A couple monks
6 W/E
They used speed-boosting stances, charge, ward against foes, grasping earth....you get the picture
soma
body blocking the res point is a valid tactic. if you don't like it, then there's different guild halls with different res points that cant be blocked as easily. keep in mind the tactical advantages of each of the guild halls, instead of just going for whatever looks prettiest. you won't always be on your own guild hall, but if you're not then you're facing a lower rated team and you should have the advantage anyway.
Teufel Eldritch
Good sportsmanship? No. Viable tactic within the GW gameplay framework? Yes.
Stamps
Quit the whining. It's a tactic, deal with it.
(must be h4x! we got pwnd)
(must be h4x! we got pwnd)
Navaros
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Originally Posted by Owen
I don't see the problem there...
Seems like a perfectly sound strategy to me. You can't win if you don't cap so anything I can do to keep you from capping seems fair and seeing as how interrupts are a staple of the Ranger that tactic seems in no way 'cheap'. Sounds like you simply got owned by a Ranger who knew what he was doing and you're sore about it. |
truth is my whole team thought we had capped the Altar because our Ghost was on it for so long and no other Ghost was anywhere to be seen! in the heat of a frantic HoH battle, it's not like you can devote all your time to waiting to see/asking around if the Altar has been capped. there's so much going on that there's no time for that
i've seen on other maps where 3 teams all got kicked out of the Altar map at the end of the round after the team that had originally capped it had their Ghost die. that should have happened in this situation too.
MuKen
You're getting your goal priorities mixed up. It's primary goal: cap the altar, secondary goal: win the ghost battle. Killing/keeping alive the ghosts is only a means to the end of ultimately capping the altar. Killing the other players is only a tertiary means to the end of managing the ghosts. You won the player and ghost battles, and mistakenly believe that means you "deserve" the win, which is utterly false since that was not the primary point of the match. They achieved the primary goal while you were absorbed in the secondary goals. They played smart and got the victory they deserved. Your build did not account for ensuring you could cap after you won the ghost battle, so you lose.
Xue Yi Liang
Admit it, if you woke up one morning with an idea (be it an exploit, invincible-build etc.) .... you'd use it until it was nerfed away. It'd be unusual to just forget about it out of sportsmanship.
On second thought, that only applies to original ideas ... nm
On second thought, that only applies to original ideas ... nm
Sereng Amaranth
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Originally Posted by Lexar
No offense, but making it hard on your teammates after they lost a match they had no chance to win anyway, that's not very good sportsmanship either.
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Quote:
| Part of good sportsmanship is at least acting like a worthy opponent, thus not insulting their skill by bringing henchmen. |
Quote:
| I don't think you should start doing GvG with relatively new people to guildwars. If you don't have a feel for your team yet, get to know them in the tombs or arenas. Start thinking about GvG when you have 8 people online regularly. |
we were just basically training in GvG...and this isn't even about us losing...I kind of expected it, even though we have won with henchies...this is about body-blocking the rez....not really attacking our bots...waiting until we were all at 60dp to avoid being 'flanked', lol....i mean come on....you're afraid of 45dp characters?
next thing you know they will be called Holy Nights
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Originally Posted by Xue Yi Liang
Admit it, if you woke up one morning with an idea (be it an exploit, invincible-build etc.) .... you'd use it until it was nerfed away. It'd be unusual to just forget about it out of sportsmanship.
On second thought, that only applies to original ideas ... nm |
Grigori Sokolov
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Originally Posted by Sereng Amaranth
next thing you know they will be called Holy Nights
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Heh, no.
we dont faction farm. we have no need to
Arathorn5000
Sereng Amaranth, you're a scrub, plain and simple.
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Originally Posted by Sirlin
A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Let’s consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play “for fun” and not explore the extremities of the game. They won’t find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they’ll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he’s again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic. (See my article on Yomi layer 3 for much more on that.)
Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the “cheap stuff” and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it’s unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak. Can you imagine what will happen when the two groups of players meet? The experts will absolutely destroy the scrubs with any number of tactics they’ve either never seen, or never been truly forced to counter. This is because the scrubs have not been playing the same game. The experts were playing the actual game while the scrubs were playing their own homemade variant with restricting, unwritten rules. |
Jakerius
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| "taking advantage of a game design flaw". |
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| Good sportsmanship? No. Viable tactic within the GW gameplay framework? Yes |
@ Arathorn.
Too right.
Aria
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Originally Posted by Navaros
their team got owned, their Ghost was not on the Altar, yet they still "won". that's nonsense.
truth is my whole team thought we had capped the Altar because our Ghost was on it for so long and no other Ghost was anywhere to be seen! in the heat of a frantic HoH battle, it's not like you can devote all your time to waiting to see/asking around if the Altar has been capped. there's so much going on that there's no time for that |
There were 8 of you. There was one of him. Now.. forgive me for asking.. but what exactly stopped the five damagers you had up and running from jumping on that one ranger, while your three monks remained? Although bows are ranged, they're not quite that far. As arrows are projectiles, the ranger *must* be in line of sight. You said that your team had three minutes -- that's even more indication that it's more of a careless factor rather than an "exploit."
Surely one -- just one -- person in your team could've ran around searching for that interrupt. If your team could not manage that.. I'm sorry to say and don't wish to offend.. but I believe that it's merely a matter of needing more practice. Even if the other, third team was still alive and attacking.. surely you can't tell me that you couldn't spare two damagers to kill that one lone ranger -- the lone, single ranger who, I might add, had absolutely no significant type of healing as his team's monks were dead.
As for not having enough time to confirm whether or not the altar has been captured.. that seems rather unbelievable to me. Victory in hall dictates capture of the dais. This is why people wait until the two minute mark -- why some people cap before that, and why other, often better informed teams capture later. Capture is crucial, and the huge green letters can't be missed (unless you're a monk.. and even then, I'm a bit skeptical). It's the main objective of HoH -- not decimating the other team.. but capturing. As such, isn't it only natural to think that a team who doesn't devote enough attention and give enough priority to the dais to even ask if the altar was captured -- isn't it unsurprising to find that a single ranger foiled an entire team? I'm sorry, but this wasn't an exploit. It was carelessness.
In all, sure, spawn camping and things like disrupting dais captures are annoying. However.. it's not exactly an exploit, but a different manner of playing the game. Both are rather easy to counter if correctly managed and directed. The devs can't hold your hands forever, ya know.
And I wouldn't wish them to.. ever.
LathalDraugr
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Originally Posted by Arathorn5000
Sereng Amaranth, you're a scrub, plain and simple.
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The hardcore (only way I can think of to describe the opposite of scrubs) may still be playing Starcraft but Blizzard aren't making any money off them. The hardcore may think of themselves as trend-setters but given the sales of Sims 2 and other singleplayer or non-competitive games, as well as all the people who play online for fun they're a rapidly dwindling minority.
The average gamer is getting older now and has a job and more responsibilities and can't afford to spend most of their free time attempting to compete with schoolkids and students who also have faster reactions and are likely more competitive.
If people want to play to win by abusing the game systems to make for boring but succesful games thats fine but most players do not want this and if A.net is playing to win for real (ie. trying to make a profit) they'll listen to the majority of their customers and given the nerfing of sprit-spam and changing of other skills to prevent abusive or overpowered builds it wouldn't surprise me if they fix some of the issues raised in this thread in the future if they become widespread tactics.
Grigori Sokolov
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Originally Posted by LathalDraugr
The hardcore may think of themselves as trend-setters but given the sales of Sims 2 and other singleplayer or non-competitive games...
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People play the Sims 2?
I just lost all my faith in humanity.
Arathorn5000
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Originally Posted by LathalDraugr
And? Scrub merely means someone who plays for fun. Can we stop this scrub/carebear nonsense now? Some of us are no longer the stereotypical narcassistic and nerdy 13-17 teenage males with no life and fighter-pilot reactions (or never were). Sorry but the days when the kids who hung around arcades playing beat-em-ups were the main market for games are gone. They're the minority now and an insignificant one at that.
The hardcore (only way I can think of to describe the opposite of scrubs) may still be playing Starcraft but Blizzard aren't making any money off them. The hardcore may think of themselves as trend-setters but given the sales of Sims 2 and other singleplayer or non-competitive games, as well as all the people who play online for fun they're a rapidly dwindling minority. The average gamer is getting older now and has a job and more responsibilities and can't afford to spend most of their free time attempting to compete with schoolkids and students who also have faster reactions and are likely more competitive. If people want to play to win by abusing the game systems to make for boring but succesful games thats fine but most players do not want this and if A.net is playing to win for real (ie. trying to make a profit) they'll listen to the majority of their customers and given the nerfing of sprit-spam and changing of other skills to prevent abusive or overpowered builds it wouldn't surprise me if they fix some of the issues raised in this thread in the future if they become widespread tactics. |
And I don't understand your distinction between playing to win and playing for fun. I for one find it fun to play as competitively as possible, with the goal of winning in mind. If you don't play to win, then it really doesn't matter in the first place if someone uses a tactic that goes against your "moral code" of fairness.
Your stereotype of kids being much more competitive than adults is amusing at best....run some tests or surveys and prove it, but don't just spout nonsense. From my perspective, age is not linked with competitive playing. "Now that I have a job, I lost my reflexes and my desire to beat the opponents"
This has nothing to do with A-net fixing things. If they wanted you to be unable to bodyblock the ressurection area, they would have made it completely open. If the OP was actually wanting to suggest a game change, he would have posted in the correct forum area, and he wouldn't spend his whole post complaining that he was wronged by those damn "elitists".
romO
if they were able to kill you all in the first place and get to your res point anyway, you lost man. the fact that they proceeded to kill you unnecesarily 3 times after that was bad sportsmanship. but you could have always left.
Kakumei
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Originally Posted by Dax
Yes, I remember hearing alot of folks say "If it's there, it's meant to be done" so there ya go.
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just because it's possible to do in the game doesn't mean the devs want you to do it
Arathorn5000
Yes they do want you to do it. They built the game to promote the use of player skill and ingenuity. Some players will push the upper echelons of game strategy, you cannot ignore this, and A-net should want this to happen. When good players push tactics and strategy that far, they come up with things that the developers might have not even thought of, and they should be proud when it happens because it means they have created a game with tremendous depth.
This isn't to say that the developers won't sometimes "nerf" things that went unforseen and they consider to be too effective. I'm saying that unexpected, effective strategies aren't necessarily bad, and are probably generally good for the game.
This isn't to say that the developers won't sometimes "nerf" things that went unforseen and they consider to be too effective. I'm saying that unexpected, effective strategies aren't necessarily bad, and are probably generally good for the game.