GW really is all about skill

Are you saying that beating the Weapons (emerald and ruby) in FF7 was easy? Or that keeping all characters alive in Fire Eblem was a walk through the park? RPGs are only easy when you use a guide there, killer (well, some are really easy, and many time the main things are...but that's for the casual gamer). Also, I do play other games, I can own most people at Soul Calibur and Some FPS games. Though..I do so love Soul Calibur <3.

Anywho, if you think something requires no skill, stop looking at pages that tell you what to do, and do it yourself, no?

Haha i got called a hacker for having lvl 18 fiends and horrors and death novas at yaks bend arena, Fun times...

lol, this story reminds me of the time that I got in a random PUG for Abaddon's Mouth.

We decided after looking forever that we'd be fine with just 7 out of 8 people.(We already had 2 monks 2 eles 2 wars and 1 Ranger) For some reason, the group leader started the mission without picking up a henchie to fill the last spot, and 1 of our eles failed to load the mission and never made it in. So we were down to 6 people. 1 of the warriors (who didn't want to go in with only 7 players in the first place) dropped right off the bat once the ele didn't load. The remaining 5 of us decided to try our luck without going back to refill our group.

Right before we got to the light bridge, the Ranger told us that his parents were kicking him off the computer for the night. He had to leave and he didn't have a choice. The remainder of the group resolved to finish the level no matter what. We were almost to the final room and it had become kinda comical how much bad luck we were having. Things got really ugly really fast though.

By the time we got to the room full of seals, most of us had at least 30% DP, and one of us, the remaining Ele, had a full 60% DP. Despite the horrible DP, we managed to take down 1 seal at a time until they were all gone. After the first seal, we all had 60% DP. It was quite a trial, but VERY FUN. The Ele and 1 of the monks always died in 1 hit. I think the monk was using more than 1 sup rune or something. Even as the only remaining Warrior, I died in like 3 hits if the monks weren't constantly on my health bar. Insanity.

Freespace 2 provided its own burst-based voice communications. Back in the days when most people were still on modem. And it was integrated into the game. You could send a voice message to the other team, to your own team, to a specific player, etc. And it worked like a charm!

That game was so way before its time....

As for GW, its not about skill, its about luck :P

Since it takes luck to find skilled people.

Therefore luck > skill :P

Comparing RPGs to online shooters in terms of difficulty is god damn retarded. Newflash! Half the draw of RPGs is story and character development. Therefore you can't make the main game so difficult that only a few players can complete it. In RPGs the difficult stuff is usually _optional_ so that players who want to will take on the extra challenge. It's a completely different design goal and anyone who compares the two with the intention of claiming one requires "no skill" is clueless.

Let's go even farther back...Fireteam
Yes I am old

There's character development in GW? Mwhahahhaa sorry beer just went through my nose laughing so hard, I must clean up. Note to self: never drink beer while reading GWG forums.

Just seems to me like your definition of "skill" is wrong. You're confusing "this takes skill" with "this is difficult for most people."

People are basically saying that you need "skill" on top of "knowledge" because "knowledge" doesn't press the buttons for you, even if you know which buttons you have to press. And seems to me you're saying that pressing the buttons doesn't count as "skill", is that it? In that case your definition of skill wouldn't apply to most videogames at all... Or do you mean that "skill" is the same as "reflexes"? You seemed to imply that on your post about timing... but that's just silly. That would be, basically, the same as saying that pressing any button at the right time is "skill", but pressing the right button a second later isn't. You can't expect that to be true in every situation.

Skill is neither a synonym for "reflexes" nor for "knowledge", it's a concept that may contain those, depending on the area you're considering. Scoring a headshot on a moving target from 200 ft away while you've only had a split second to aim when you're playing your favorite FPS is skill... and so is winning a game of chess... and so is pressing the right button at the right time in GW... and so is driving a car, wheter you're a NASCAR pilot or a sunday driver... and so is building tiny boats inside bottles or riding a horse or whatever. Different degrees and different types of skills? Certainly. But that doesn't mean everything else depends only on luck...

I'm certain there's people out there who are great at whatever the FPS of the month is... but suck at GW, PvE or PvP.

There's character development (aka fleshing out the peculiarities of a character in the story) and there's _character_ development (customizing an RPG character which improves over time). GW is admittedly lacking the former, but it has the second in spades.

And when since did RPGs = GW anyway? All that drinking cause a reading comprehension deficiency?

nobody is asking GW to host the VoIP servers either. Guild Wars could quite easily ping the players in the group for whichever one has the best ping and then open a port on that machine to be used as a voice server for the party. There are numerous ways they could have provided VoIP for this game...they simply didn't.

Hey, I've got an idea!!

Don't play with PUG's. A PUG is, often as not, unable to understand or deal with the standard health/energy level, targeting and tactical calls that don't use your keyboard. You're also ignoring the fact that a dialup connection is virtually unable to deal with VoIP (As I experienced firsthand with Counterstrike's VoIP fuctionality) - thus, it's not for everyone. You can't depend on your PUG to be using broadband, but you should be able to rely on them to recognize map pings and tactical calls.

Anet chose not to add VoIP... okay. Fine, that's their "failure." Ever wonder, or ask, why?

I assume that had it been advantageous for them to do so, they would have. Or maybe it's coming later. Heh... ask Frog sometime?

Ah, I see Algren Cole is back at his usual trolling through the forums, complaining & whining about everything, and arguing just for the sake of argument. I wonder why people still argue with him? If you post a thread stating "X is black", he'll start posting: "wrong, X is white" immediately. And vice versa . But whatever floats your boat, Algren .

To the OP: that is so true. I've done both Thunderhead and Abaddon with parties with no real monks, and yesterday also almost finished Hell's with random classes (2 eles, mesmer, necro, 2 tanks) + henchie monks, but we screwed up a little and the only surviving necro, despite having been bloody good, turned out to not have a res . The party was a PUG though and we had been breezing through both Abaddon and Hells, so thats a shame. From now on I'll always try to talk more with people before entering mission, and kick anyone that seems impatient or just isn't answering - that should keep the quality of the PUG higher.

Unless you haven't noticed, I never said it was in my post. I just commented on the character development. There seems to be a common problem of people only reading what they want to read in these forums

The short ramp up to finishing the games, aquiring skills, ect is no more intense than unlocking all the characters in Tekken 4 or any other game. Not alot of RPin' going on. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, for people who don't have alot of time or don't want to bother with it.

In so far as skill is concerned (on a the thread topic), the bestiary is pretty generic, aside from a few magic abilities you need to be aware of from mobs, I'm hard pressed to see that much strategy skill needed in sizing up the mobs.
There is a bit of team work, but then again you can often get the job done by computer AI henchmen.

beats the hell out of being a brainless fanboy that lacks the mental capacity to form an original thought

Without a doubt, the most fun I have had in GW has come from broken PUGs (groups missing a 'critical' character)

I've made it through missions without Monks, Warriors, Eles and everything else. Broken PUGs force creativity and usually make people try HARDER which is what makes it fun.

FPS and skill? Don't make me laught!
It's all about bot like reflexes. In most cases, a deathmatch. Just be able to rail that 5 pixels in 0.2 secs and know where the railgun is, and youre TEH UBER MASTAH:P

In GW you need skills for:
-preparing to battle
-knowing where and how to use your skills
-time your skills
-strictly cooperating with your team
-maintaining energy/hp/adrenaline balance
-making up for others mistakes

there's no need to take credit away from twitch gamers to make a point. FPS games require skill just as much as GW does. It's a different type of skill but skill nonetheless. FPS games still take require tactical planning, timing, team cooperation and certianly require you to be able to make up for others mistakes. not to mention it requires a skill that can't be learned and has limitations...Twitch. Skill can be a hard word to define and what constitutes skill is not exactly clear. Merriam defines skill as "Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience"...I believe anything you can get better at than you were the first time you played requires skill.

I really wish people would stop calling reaction time "twich", because that is all it boils down to. The "twich" games are merely a deragitory term used to describe games that place more weight on reaction time over planning and excecution.

There is a wide margin of error when comparing a fps game, rpg, or point and click style game. Fps games have the largest margin of error as the weapon properites are fixed, but the placement and accuracy is left up to the user, opposed to other formats where the placement and accuracy is automated for the user.

Let's just say it's a different type of skill, definately different.

As RPG's I don't know GW is slightly above WoW in stategy, IMHO...atleast in PvE. Seems to me the biggest challenge is in the planning but because there aren't too many mob variables (too many to list) things are pretty straight forward. Being that there isn't too much at stake such as no loss of experience, no degrading armor/weapons, or competition from other groups, the worst that can happen is you have to start over.

It's all a matter of trial and error. I would wager you'd find more serious groups if there was a chance of deleveling or losing a piece of armor. Though this doesn't really have to do with skill per say, it's the variables that require a player to be more on thier toes with the decisions they make.

Well, compared to other pve formats where serious strategies begin with dps and hps calculations, gw is more focused on type of method used to achieve the effect. Pvp is a more fluid environment, where typically offensive methods are compared against defensive methods in a sort of punch and counter approach. Gw is a better example of that style of play opposed to the pve example, as the mobs will still attempt to merely use brute force and there is no pressing need, in many instances, to rush through a situation in a certain timeframe causing a limited number of strategies to be viable forcing the aforementioned calculations.

The sad thing about gw pve is, that the majority of it can be progressed through with intellegent pull selections and patience more than who brings what to the table. This is a large reason why much of it can be solod or henched. Talking about strategy as a skill for this game would lie almost completely within the pvp realm for appropriate possibilites requiring the coordination and execution in order to make the build design phase (strategy) come together. Tactics is entirely different and is shown better in other game formats, but it still exists within gw.

Reminds me of the first time I did bloodstone
A friend and myself entered the mission but had forgotton to download the mission before hand so we took too long to enter it and the rest had left.

We thought what the hell lets see how far we can get.
We finished it with no deaths.

I was a w/m and he was a w/n and we were both VERY new to the game, but it was just team play and carefull aggroing that did it.

Yeah right, which is why you included a quote by me that referenced RPGs and then replied with a statement about GW specifically. How disingenuous.


The fact remains that there IS an upward progression of power, and it's quite significant. And you completely failed to address the issue of customizability.

I'm not going back to quote anyone on anything. I've noticed people saying "twitch" games don't require skill, or something to that extent.

Just remember that when the very truly "skilled" players bring home a check from a tournament and those who say GW requires skill have spent the 50 bucks on the game and thats it.

This guy is out there making a living off "twitch" games while everyone in tombs is trying to come up with the next gimmick build in what this game is, a game....and only a game....nothing more.

Making the kind of money this kid makes is hardly what you'd call luck or anything other than pure skill.

http://www.fatal1ty.com/mystory/

Skill is inherently two things... talent and knowledge. You must have the knowledge about whatever it is you are trying to do if you want to be successful. Whether that is knowing maps, weapons, spells, etc. or knowing a certain set of passing plays in football. Knowledge is key.

But alongside knowledge is talent. All the knowledge in the world will not make you successful if you do not have the talent to APPLY that knowledge correctly. You must have the inherent ability to click a mouse quickly (hand/eye coordination) or run a 4.3 40 yard dash (football) to be successful at those things regardless of the amount of knowledge that you have.

Yes there are "prodigies"... those people who can solve calculus problems without ever taking a class, or pick up a game and beat it without ever playing it before. But those are rare, and the exception to the rule. They are not the rule itself.

the amount of money he makes actually playing a game isn't very much. maybe 60,000 a year...his wealth comes from his sponsorships.


btw: don't play this kid in counter strike...it's sad how dominant he is

I'll bet he makes more then 60k, considering in some tourneys the grand prize is 50k. Not only that but I'm sure almost every person here wishes they had it that easy making money. Playing games, hell now much easier can it get?

"Paris Hilton"

And yes, skill matters a lot more than experience in my book. Finding the right skill set, weapon, ect then knowing how and when to use it is really a necessity nowadays with the amount of no nothing people running around.

Ok....you got me there. Would you want to really sacrifice that many brain cells though? She's gotta working off what.....3, 4 brain cells on a good day.

With all due respect it is possible to comment on one facet of a subject. But that being said, are you now saying that your RPG reference was completely unrelated to the subject at hand? Anotherwords I'm not the one suggesting anything...you are.

Yea, so you can also customise your character in most games, so what's the point? There aren't too many games that don't have a upward progression. Considering you can get rushed to top level armor post searing at anytime, I fail to see any sort of challenge in level progression for customisation in GW. But there's more to character development than that, it's also how the character progresses through the story- what roads (speaking in the abstract...not actual roads) they take, and how it affects the character. But that is something best left for RPGs which I'm not suggesting GW is

Nice try, but no. If you wanted to comment about GW specifically you had other ways to do so then to respond with a sarcastic reply to the quoted text.

No, genius. It was a direct response to another poster who made a comment about "RPGs being 'easy'". Can you please just do me a favor and actually read the thread, because it's painfully obvious that you haven't and you're justing making yourself look foolish.

GW is an action RPG. The focus is on combat rather story. I don't think anyone ever claimed that it was anything else.

Haha yes I was trying to be as sarcastic as humanly possible, I won't deny that. It's not my fault you read into my post though..

Well gee how convient, it's alway easy to say that after the fact isn't it. Oh by the way, you JUST said in your next paragraph that GW is a action RPG. Please feel free to flame me, it's seems to be your best move at this point.


So that means what? Lemme get this straight: Before you say that RPGs have character development, but you weren't referring to GW. Then you say, "And when since did RPGs = GW anyway?" Followed by there is character development in GW. NOW your calling that GW is a 'action RPG'.

So if I get you're trying to say (and at this point it's confusing to say the least) you're contending that GW is not bound by traditional RPG character development? If that's the case wouldn't it be fair to say the 'action' part of the game might have some similarities to other game genres? If so, you might not want to bash other people's views.