NC soft., fraud and account ban?!

Im sorry if this is in the wrong place but I am extremely pissed and disturbed. A few months ago I bought an Guild Wars account on Ebay (it was 30$ as opposed to 50$ for the game at a local store).

I have played it happily ever since. Today I get home after a nice evening to find that my account has been suspended indefinately because the person I bought it from said he/she/it had never bought anything of or relating to Guild Wars (aka, they called in and said it was a fraudulant charge or something).

[edit: basically PlayNC banned me because some one else did not pay]

Now I have the transcripts from the transaction along with e-mails but I am not exactly sure how either party (PlayNC or the ebay seller) will handle the facts of this matter (that is, i am the one who is getting screwed).

Any advice on how I should handle this situation?

I guess this serves as a warning to all who bought accounts on Ebay...

buying the game from anyone other than ArenaNet is against the EULA...you have no case. You should go out and buy a new copy

the EULA also state that only people 18 or older can open an account. im guessing around 50+% of the people who installed and created accounts on Guild wars are under 18.

The only way I could even get my money back would be if a) the person agree'd to pay me back, or b) PlayNC contacted paypal about the matter.

As long as you have a valid cdkey, I would imagine you have the power to just tell NC soft to reactivate your account, and if you've been told why it isn't, explain it is a valid cdkey, they have no right to it, the account is fully yours. If they say that selling the account is illegal, try to just go on the side of not purchasing the account for the sake of an account as some people have sold characters in the past, you'll have to clarify if it had anything associated with it such as an active character, and say you were just buying what was said to be a legal copy for a cheaper price, apparently not the seller was not the best person to deal with.

Now to get your money back or to get him to remove his statement, find proof that his has done one of the following. If he informed you the account was legit and legally obtained, then he has intentionally lied about the merchandise, Paypal will probably easily remove his account, transfer the money back, and get to his credit card. If he did not post the account was illegally obtained, then that is the same sort of line, since it is illegal to sell stolen goods. If he is now saying that your key was illegally obtained, have records of you purchasing it from him in some manner, and at the least him now saying that it was even though unless he could not know it through any other manner than having possession of it first and thus selling it to you, then use leverage with the fact that he is illegally selling merchandise, he is nothing more than a thief or digital pirate, and is attempting to commit fraud to his credit card company by purchasing an item, selling it off, and then claiming he did not. Tell him that the best he could hope for is to have the entirity of his credit screwed for years to come, since I'm guessing he had done it a few times, and credit companies are very big on this even for a mere $50 purchase, if not criminal charges for fraud, and yes he can get it for only $50.

At the very least, if you are attached to your character and the game, ask NC soft if you can somehow pay for another account and transfer your character, say you should've just got it right from a retailer, and you've wasted $30 on what could have been a vastly more grueling lesson in the world of digital purchases and the open marketplace.

Although, on a last note, attempt to converse with the guy, it could just be a different person who had their credit card stolen, inwhich case, you would still lose your $30 for the time being, but, may lead to the arrest of a card thief.

In the end, as I said, you're probably going to be sort of SoL, I don't imagine that may give you a character transfer just because of the vagueness of the transaction, and you're only out $30 instead of $2000 on a laptop sent from overseas with no credit protection. Didn't happen to me, I just know of cases.

The person person who sold you the key and then refused to pay the credit card bill (this seems to be what you're saying happened) has committed fraud.

I would try to straighten the matter out with Anet (you might be out of luck here) and consider (if you can prove you bought it on Ebay) reporting the matter to the police (or even the credit card company) who, in Britain at least, are beginning to take more action over Ebay fraudsters.

However, the the quickest way to play would be to buy a legitimate copy of GW.

Although I liked my character immensly (as I have spent a lot of time on it and all, as I am sure the majority of you gamers have and can relate to), I am more concerned that I was implimented in some one elses fraud.

Thats like buying a car from a car dealership, and finding out the car dealership had stolen it, and instead of them getting in trouble, you get slammed for it.

Its not about the money, its a matter of principle.. and the fact that im not sure how willing ANet will be to transfer my characters and all of that....

thanks for the replies, they are all greatly appreciated any other help is also appreciated.

luckily for me Anet mentioned that credit card was a Visa (that originally purchased the item). my only problem is finding out the information associated with this card so i can make a proper statement with the fraud department. I could contact paypal, but knowing them it takes years to get a reply (especially when the item in question is a 'virtual item'. sometimes they won't even help you).

My Excuse, i have PMed you a brand new cd key.
When you log into guild wars, it should ask for you to enter a new access key, enter the key sent to your pm and

have fun.

God I wish that were the case. A few thousand less whiny 10 year old's on GW be nice.

I can understand you're annoyed at your hard work being taken away, but seriously...
Why buy from Ebay?

I am no lawyer, but I am not entirely sure if this part of the EULA is even legal in most countries. You can't simply put a piece of paper into a sealed box and prohibit people from selling or giving away a piece of their property (the license is a piece of YOUR property) to other people.

woah how kind can u be <3
u dont happen to have another one left over lol

The legality of EULA's are questionable, and I'm fairly certain they've been challenged before for overextending. Not sure on the outcomes though, news like that generally won't hit the mainstream, despite how large the industry of online gaming is.

Anyway, ignoring the above for a moment, the EULA of all MMORPG's I've played and seen say in them, "The license to use this product is non-transferrable". Except for the note below it that usually says something about a parent or legal guardian doing a one-time transfer to a minor.

For all intents and purposes of the law, NCSoft is perfectly in the right to ban your account, even with the access key you just got PM'd, and it'd solely their grace and good will that they wouldn't, if they knew.
People should stop clicking "I Agree to the terms listed above." and then complaining that things are unfair; Ignorance is no excuse under the law. You've had since the moment you got the game to challenge it, and should you disagree with their practices, you're under no obligation to play the game. The EULA is right on their site, so you don't have to buy it first either.

That being said, I empathize. It sucks to be ripped off over a technicality that shouldn't even matter.

However, keep this in mind in the future, OP and all who read;
Because of the wording of most EULA's for MMORPG's, they basically mean the following-
"We can screw you over at any time because of whatever reason we want to, whether you think it's a good reason or not. Our servers, our rules."

And when you click that little button that says, "I agree", you just said "You agree", and by the time you get banned, it's a little late to say, "Hey now, wait a minute... I don't agree to that."

In this particular case the EULA have no bearing, though, as the original poster wasn't banned for breach of the EULA, but because the person he bought the game from simply committed fraud: he bought the game on-line using credit card, and then stopped payment (or used a fake/stolen card).

It's credit card fraud, a matter for the police, not for this forum.

Also... What's the deal with banishd's post? He _gives away_ a CD key?
Maybe banishd is just very rich and extremely kind, but I would still suggest to the OP that he should be very careful about using any CD key mailed to him, so that HE doesn't become a matter for the police.
Because my guess is that it's either a stolen key or the result of a keygen, and I'm pretty sure ANet doesn't look kindly on either.

This is generally one of the main reasons the non-transferrable rule was created for, or so I'd heard. And you know how reliable word of mouth is.
Selling/trading invalid account keys, or valid ones, and then using the 'file a hacking case' forms to reclaim their accounts at a later date (this technique is often used months after the sale, in order to get both the initial sale money, and the money they can gain from selling the developed characters). Between that, keyloggers, and social engineering, there are very few legit hack cases.

My point earlier being that even if he tried to establish himself as a different customer, they don't have to reactivate his account ever because he'd still violated the EULA.

And yes, I agree that credit card fraud is not a matter for this forum. Try taking that particular matter to ebay, or something. Not sure, I don't do the online auction scene. Too easily fraudulent with the whole partial/full anonymity thing the internet provides (I'd imagine that making new accounts by proxy and using fictitious addresses is fairly easy, to do shady business on, while your main account remains clean), and I wasn't thinking of credit cards at the time either.

Looking at it again, I'd say the only person who's screwing you over is the person who sold you the game. Anet is just protecting itself, and shouldn't be bashed for its actions in this specific case, going off the limited information available.

Also, since I'd forgotten in the other post;
I hope nobody takes any of what I've posted too personally. Except the not reading the EULA part, because I honestly think agreeing to something you haven't read is downright irresponsible. Otherwise, I'm just saying what is practical and objective, regardless of whether I agree or not.
[Edit; I'd inserted the paragraph above this one after the creation of this one. My opinion on Anet's handling of the case is solely an opinion, and is probably not objective, should that not be clear.]

selling accounts is against the eula and gets your account banned by email.

0_o wow, can i have 1? ^^ i find the 4 char per account thing a pain in the a$$

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

For those interested.

It basicly says that if you buy something its yours to sell or give away, and thats the Law.

But you cannot make copies or lease the game out, only sell it.

I think its the same for the EU as well.

Basicly the EULA is contrary to US law, in regards to re-sale. But they get around this by saying they sell a Licence to play the game and not ownership. This however does not (and has not) stand up in court.

My advice.. go to EB games.. there are some neat tricks you can do there.

Thank you again for all of your replies. I will post in this thread to update the situation (as to what happens).

Banished CD key worked and I now have an account working again (temporarily, i plan to use my own account when i can and hopefully either re-pay banished or something else).

Jakerius, the reason I bought from ebay was simply because Gw accounts are anywhere from 10-30$ there as opposed to the 45-55$ i have seen the game going for in most retail stores.

Again, thank you for all of your replies. Ill try and update all the information i get back from ANet AND the guy who ripped me off.

and banished, my response is waiting

As with anything purchased from EBay: Buyer Beware. That you got caught in someone else's fraud scheme is unfortunate but not wholly unexpected. I hope you learned something from this.

I would be VERY careful using any other unauthorized CDKey. My advice on the one that you were "given" is that you investigate its legality. I'm not saying that Banished gave you a fraudulent key, but it's sort of strange unless he's independently wealthy and a GW philanthropist. Personally, I'd email NCSoft and/or ANet, give them the CD key and ask if it's a legal account. I'd explain my situation to them and make sure that using it won't result in the same thing as your original problem.

Just my two cents.

And, Zehly, what exactly are you alluding to with going to EB and the "neat tricks"?

Did not know that, nor would even considered it a possibility as I have seen many people selling their accounts (some for obscene amounts) on Ebay so you would think it was a legit practice .

Just because it's on EBay doesn't make it legal.

EBay polices some things but they can't be all things to all sellers/buyers.

As I understand it, even if you legitimately purchased the account on your end, once something is stolen it remains stolen.

When the Nazis confiscated artwork and later resold it/traded it for goods, museums, galleries, and private collectors today are now left holding the bag. In Europe it's slightly different, but once something is stolen in the U.S., it is always considered stolen (or in your case, perhaps just fraudulent) until it is restituted.

You can resell a Guild Wars CD, I guess: that's fine with first-sale law. Heck, you can download the client for free; I don't think Anet cares about that. But the primary sale is of CD keys, which pretty much translates into memory storage on Anet's/NCSoft's servers. It *is* their servers, and they do have to maintain them. I guess it's akin to walking onto someone else's private property, you have to follow their rules while on it. It's not necessarily something that I like, but if someone says to not smoke near their house, I won't.

My-Excuse, I would recommend you also contact the credit card company, Visa, about this. They also tend to resolve payment problems; at least, better than the person who ripped you off. Contacting a scammer will usually get you nowhere.

ya..that over 18 crap is legal jargon to protect the creator...in this case it's in the EULA because the developer is about as dumb as a bag of rocks.

a) you've got a better shot at being the meat in the middle of a Carmen Electra Jessica Alba sandwich

b) you've got a better shot of a) actually coming true

Fantas: it's a good thing you aren't a lawyer...the license is not your property. The license is ArenaNets property. You're property is the CD, The Box, and The Manual....nothing else belongs to you.

Yep make sure you contact E-Bays fraud team and your own credit card companies fraud team. If payment hadnt been made yet your credit card company can pull it out so he doesnt get money for what he did. More than likely he purchased the product from a store than cancelled the credit payment so it wasnt a valid purchase in the first place.

Consider if you bought a stolen car. It isnt your car even though you paid for it. It belongs to someone else. What do you think the athorities should do? Return the car to the rightful owner or say 'ok you perchased the car go ahead and have it'. No the cops take the car because it is NOT yours, it will be your responsibility to charge the dealership to get them to pay you back for the fraudulant deal.

Also make sure you give them the lowest seller rating possible on Ebay =).

It means that ebay dude you bough GW from used stolen credit cards to get his copies. Rightful owner of CC filed a claim, claim passed and now you're not getting any more playing.

Similiar thin, albeit on much bigger scale happened in Poland a while ago: one guy sold over 100 copies of GW for 10$ a piece.
Inform eBay SafeHarbour team (they'll help, hell yeah:>), and if you paid for auction using CC not the sucky PayPal, inform your credit card company. There is a posibility you can get refund from PP, but expect a bumpy ride.

first part NOPE

the 18 part is only for the part of online credit card purchases.

second part

absolutely true

Federal Law carries coverage for the first part...which is why developers don't need to put it in the License Agreement...but developers don't know this so they do it anyway. What they are covering against by putting this into the EULA is already covered by a federal law that requires all purchasees using credit to be 18 years old. It's redundant...and thus they are as smart as a bag of bricks

In my country:
1. Clicking "OK" is not recognized as an electronic signature by law.
2. License is defined as a right to redistribute/modofy/etc - thanks for giving me your game A.net!
3. Any document legally binding customer must be written in my local language. - sorry me speak english not:>

Entire discussion about EULAs in mmorpgs is pointless. They're full of bullshit, but noone is rich and insane enough to sue an oversea company for 30 bucks.

Actually, the 18 and over has nothing to do with the credit card purchase. The EULA is a contract, in Canada, and I assume also in the US, you can not legally agree to a contract if you are considered a minor, someone of legal age, in this case 18, must do the agreeing for you.

Also controlled federally(atleast in the US)...thus no need for it in a EULA..License Agreements only need to state what is not covered by federal law.

If the guy you purchased you account from did not pay or obtain it legally and you account was delleted by Anet because of it.

**It is the person who sold it to you who has committed Fraud and it is not Anet's.**

Anet cannot reimburse you for stolen goods that where not purchased from them in the first place. Like other ppl said: It's like buying a stolen car, getting it confiscated by the authorities and then going back that car's company and asking for a reimbursment on a car you didn't buy from them.

The only thing you can do is Contact Ebay, Anet and Paypall (or your credit card company) and tell them about it so the guy doesn't do it to others again.

Let me re-fix my statement. I never meant to mean that ANet had commited fraud. When i mentioned fraud, i was talking solely about the person who had sold me the account.

Luckily i found out some more information. The person who had sold me this account bought it from a person on a private forum. The person on the private forum said that he had a 'few' keys laying around that were not in use.

Something tells me that Pelias's idea might be true in this situation.

funny thing is, I have gotten 3 e-mails back from the person who sold me the account, yet none from ANet who might have been scammed out of more than one guild wars account....

[edit- he has also agree'd to help me get information on this seller so that I can inform the proper authorities at Visa and paypal.

anet doesn't lose money....the credit card company still pays them the $50. They have no reason to care. Everyone totes Anet as being "the gamers big brother"...they don't give a damn about you or whether you get to play the game. They just want the $50...just like any other well run American Business. Kudos ArenaNet

The same thing happened to me for my second account a few weeks ago. I realized my error and manned up and bought a legit key from NCSoft. Sure, I wasted an extra 30 dollars, but thats what you get when you try to buy from sources who magically have 15 keys for 30 dollars...

in the US (the lawsuit capitol of the world) there is a quaint term called CYA which applies

this is on the premise that most people are too lazy/stupid to actually be aware of the regulations and some enterprising ambulance chaser wont start a class action lawsuit because something wasnt spelled out.

i am waiting on the day you have to click *i understand and agree* to each and every line.

followed by a test of comprehension (well they might........ )

LOL if comprehension checks ever happen, a huge percentage of gamers wouldn't pass.

actually I can see where you are going now...and it makes a lot of sense

Aniewel: if by large percent you mean 99%...then I agree. Comprehension doesn't appear to be tops on the list for a lot of gamers.

As a teacher, it's not a high priority for a lot of people. In the day and age of instant gratification and the "skip" button on a lot of electronic agreements, it's no surprise that people just don't read through.

Having been caught in this trap with my medical insurance (believe me, READ EVERY WORD), I'll never get hit like that again. I don't care how long I have to sit there and how many times I have to reread things to be sure I adequately understand what I'm signing, I'll do it.

Although in pretty much all the world clicking "OK" does not constitute signing a legally binding contract.
I do know that the software firms have been lobbying mercilessly in Brussels for years to get the politicians to agree to this, though.
I'm a bit curious where Pelias is, since shrinkwraps/EULA's are apparently legally binding in his country.