The Broken Balance between Swords and Axes

Lately, all PvE Warrior builds seem to be using the same skill - Cyclone Axe. I mean, the fact that it hits so many targets makes it easy to combo with other skills, like Apply Poison [+ "Victory is mine!"], Live Vicariously, and Zealous weapons.

And then we have poor Hundred Blades. During the BWEs, this was a very popular skill, also accessible quite early in the game, making it a viable substitute to CA. Although [if used properly], it hit twice as many people people as CA, it had double the cooldown. It even had a damage penalty on both attacks [each did 75% damage], while CA has a damage bonus. HB is now also Elite; sure, we could easily do HB + LV, but why give up an Elite slot when you could use Cyclone Axe instead?

The early game is sharply tipped to axes as well. We learn an equal number of sword and axe skills in Pre-Searing [2]. Once we hit the Searing, it is strongly tipped to axes for a good while. In Ascalon, we learn two new axe skills [Dismember, Penetrating Blow], but no sword skills. Hell, even hammers get their adrenaline damage attack.

Due all the above, the balance between Sword and Axe Warriors in game has been sharply tipped to the Axe's favor. Hammer Warriors also have a bit of trouble for a while.

In order to fix this balance, I have two proposals.

1] Revise Hundred Blades to the following:

Hundred Blades - Sword Attack Skill
10e, 8sec cooldown
Swing twice at target foe and foes adjacent to your target. Each hit strikes for 75% damage

Hundred Blades was made Elite due to it's synergy with Illusionary Weaponry. During the BWEs, the IW Me/W was a very popular build, capable of an 80dmg AoE attack every 8 seconds and over 40dps. In today's current PvP environment, players have learned to strip enchantments, making IW a much smaller threat. If Hundred Blades was non-Elite, several old builds, like IW and Flourish, could again become viable options instead of trick-ponies.
Introuduce it earlier as well. Adding it to a difficult yet early quest like Military Matters could greatly help balance axes and swords.

Or, as a last resort...
2] Make Cyclone Axe Elite.
Barrage strikes multiple opponents with a damage opponent in one attack and is easily spammed, but the number of enemies is capped.
Hundred Blades also strikes multiple opponents in one attack, but each attack suffers a damage penalty, it has an 8sec cooldown [compared to 4 and 2 for CA and Barrage, respectively], and is Elite.
I know you may use it currently, but don't you think it's a bit powerful?

Thank you for your time. Please post constructive criticism and comments.

I only ever use axes and if cyclone axe (glued to my skillbar) was made elite, i would be the most unhappy person in GW. All my warrior builds use other elites in conjunction with CA. This course of action would render my builds ineffective.

Cyclone axe damage is only decent enough with high points in axe mastery. It does less damage than most other axe attacks and it relies on you having several adjacent enemies to be used effectively...otherwise it's not worth the 5 energy.

Buff other skills yes, but please please please, can everybody stop asking for nerfs to the skills which we enjoy using. It's killing the fun.

I don't know if it's constructive or not, but barrage is a 1 second cooldown, not 2. I don't agree that 100 swords should be reduced from it's elite status as it does way more dmg to a single target than cyclone axe, however I think it should be given to a few more bosses to make it easier to capture. Having to wait till the very last mission seems pointless to me.

Let's fact it, HB is one of the worst elites in the game; however, nerfing cyclone is not the best way to make it better. In my opinion, HB would be greatly improved if only one thing was changed: make it hit all adjacent targets to you instead of all adjacent foes to your target. Cyclone axe is like this, and it allows you to hit enemies behind you and in front of you, but HB only allows you to hit those in front of you and people by them. This usually means only 1-2 targets where cyclone gets 2+ almost every time.

Let's compare CA vs. HB over a 16 second time period. HB will hit at 0, 8, and 16 seconds (not counting for swing times). In this time you will spend 15 energy, and will hit a total of 6 times (plus more per foe by your target).

CA will hit at 0, 4, 8, 12, and 16 seconds (again, not counting for swing times). In this time you will spend 25 energy, and will hit a total of 5 times (plus more per foe by you). Also, you will strike for an additional 50 dmg at lvl 12 axe mastery.

From this comparison, we can see that you spend an additional 10 energy in 16 seconds by using CA (though you do save your elite).

If you are only attacking one target with CA, you hit 0 extra times, but you do +50 dmg to the target. Against one target, HB will hit 3 extra times with no bonus to dmg. In this case, HB will do slightly more dmg unless you are attacking someone with high armor.

With 2 targets, both in front, HB hits 6 extra times with no bonus to dmg, and CA hits 5 extra times for +100 dmg. Again, HB will most likely do slightly more dmg unless you are attacking someone with high armor.

If you have one target in front and one in back, HB hits 3 extra times with no bonus to dmg, but CA hits 5 extra times for +100 dmg. In this case, CA wins hands down.

My suggestion is that HB remains as an elite, but it is changed to target all surrounding you instead of your target. HB will then become a better adrenaline charging attack, will still do good damage, and will still save energy over CA. Also, a small bonus to dmg or armor penetration couldn't hurt it (like the one CA has). As it stands, sword attacks seem to be quite a bit inferior to axe, as there are only 2 hard-hitting attacks - final thrust & Galrath's - both of which take high adrenaline levels to use, compared to axes 3 or 4 spike dmg attacks (it is harder to compare to hammer, as that is a totally different world).

I would like to hear your opinions on what you think about swords/HB... I am still searching for a good sword build.

Good luck

I also think the lack of a high damage sword elite is problematic. Seriously, while axe users have Eviscerate and Cleave, sword's stuck with HB? I really can't think of any sword elite that's actually useful in the current metagame. The only reason we see sword users is because swords do more damage than axes do when you AREN'T using elites, and therefore, the sword users can bring along other elites and still do decent damage. I still feel that although sword is supposedly the "multipurpose weapon," a high damage sword build should be possible.

my brother has found that hundred blades is a very very useful skill to use with the right setup, when your in pvp theres usually a lot of people where your attacking someone, so you use hundred blades and while theres people around you, most of your skills are recharged, where as axe each axe skill is 6+adreneline for each one that is useful where as sword is in the low 4-5's and have a high min dmg, 13 strength, 16 into sword with all sword dmg skills makes you do more dmg then you actually would think of doing, sure axe have +6max dmg but it also only has 6 min dmg as max, axe is easier to use but with the right sword setup it can be better then a axe warrior in dmg output, but axe i think is better overall, high enough dmg and add in some stances, and bring wild blow for the extreme stance warriors/rangers/IW mesmers

quick fix. make hundred blades non elite and easier to get ( buyable )
or make it so hundred blades acts more as CA
and add another AoE attack for swords, possibly elite


my proposed FUN solution! :




add in another sword elite, something along the lines of a swordsmanship stance. Yes as tyrael said the sword should be the multipurpose weapon, i believe one of the purposes of the sword should be to block attacks ( like a fencer can ), i'd find it much harder to believe you could block attacks with an axe or *laugh* a hammer with much ease and success. So i'd say add in either a nice skill ( low cooldown and VERY low adrenaline cost say like 2-3 strikes only to make it ELITE status ) like riposte/deadly riposte but perhaps more effective somehow. OR add in a long lasting ( like shield stance duration ) swordsmanship STANCE which requires you to be wielding a sword to use, something similar to gladiator's defense in a way but longer lasting. I believe swords have lower damage and worse all around skills for a single reason, which is a sword warriors defensive ability with riposte/deadly riposte, etc. And I hope anet works on this.

This would give sword wielders an edge, even with the lack of an AoE attack you wouldnt have to put any points into tactics ( although i don't suggest that) to have a stance and could beef up your strength to be more all around thus opening up more posibilities for the " versatile " sword warrior.

Yeah, thats what it used to be. Hundred Blades was non-elite and did 75% damage with each strike. Anet made it elite and removed the weapon damage...apparently because people kept comboing it with Illusionary Weaponry and Conjures.

At the time I protested, and did some quick maths (perhaps flawed, I don't recall) showing even with Illusionary Weaponry the extra damage of one more attacks every 8 seconds isn't all that hot (5 more DPS? OH NOES?!?!). Nobody listened. I got the usual fustrating answer of "it looks so cool I'd use it anyway"...well gee...thanks. Conjures meanwhile have been nerfed...lots.

Considering a Dev actively told me to go and use cyclone axe instead...I really really don't think they want to change it.

Why change CA, its only useful for farming thats all its a terrible skill otherwise and then comparing a axe to a sword is stupid especially as axes are smaller easier to manouver with whereas swords are long and you cant go spinning in circles, i know that seems stupid but there trying realism

Axes... are easier to maneuver? What? Have you ever held an axe? That is totally untrue. Anyway, I think that swords are the Earth of Warriors. It's never going to do as much damage as axes. That's because damage... Isn't everything!

Hundred blades suck period all warrior elites suck in my opinion, except eviserate, and victory is mine..

That's how many Sword warriors felt when HB was made Elite.
No matter how many or few points you have in Axe Mastery, you still hit everyone and gain the same amount of adrenaline.
To be honest, I would much rather buff HB than nerf CA, but I'm willing to go with whatever it takes to even the playing field.
There was a time where Hundred Blades was the first Elite you could really capture, as it was on a Warrior Charr boss somewhere in the Breach/Diessa area. Giving it to us early, even though it's Elite, would help the balance.
I agree, I honestly don't want to see CA nerfed. However, making HB hit adjacent targets like CA would make it more useful, but make them the same, lowering the uniqueness of the two weapons.
I like the examples you presented, but I feel that HB's Elite status isn't legitimized by the fact you use less energy. Plus, in PvE, there are too many more times where CA is more effective than HB [they're both pretty bad in PvP].
The example in attack types is a good point. Sword warriors could use another damage attack or two, as PvP has quickly learned condition removal, especially with all those Frag/Virulence builds around.
The fact that the only Sword Elite is considered one of the worst in the game is pretty bad. Could you please expand on that "swords do more damage than axes when you AREN'T using elites;" often, I see it the other way around due to Cyclone Axe's non-Elite status.
High damage sword builds were possible when HB wasn't Elite, like IW, Flourish, and anyone using Conjure or Strength of Honor. Sadly, this is no longer the case.
I would love for you to post a Sword build that can outdamage a W/Mo SoH Eviscerate build.
That's the quick fix. However, I do believe it needs the energy raise to make it balanced with Cyclone Axe as a non-Elite.
Unless my memory fails me, Riposte and Deadly Riposte were once Sword-only skills tied to Tactics. To be honest, I would love it if they were once again made Sword skills, but tied to Swordsmanship.
The issue with HB and IW was not the damage but the AoE. Nothing really beats an 80dmg AoE nuke every 8s for 5e.
Wow, a dev told you that? Swords got owned...
Lolol, you're telling someone who fences, takes kendo, and LARPs every once in a while that swords are less maneuverable than axes? Show me a real axe attack that guarentees a hit on every adjacent enemy or a sword attack that hits everyone within its reach twice in one swing.

Thank you for you comments. Please continue to post constructive criticism and comments.

sorta off topic, but swinging a sword around just doesnt seem as good as swinging an axe around in a circle.

uh, its not the game thats imbalanced its the flavor of the month. as far as cyclone axe being overpowered, its only overpowered against ppl who stand in it.

80dmg isn't much. In PvE theres just much huger badder nukes to put out (dual meteor shower + firestorm anyone?) or you could do glyph+firestorm for 5 energy. In PvP you got 2 problems, one that its not really AoE, its adjacent, which means the area is really really small. Also that fireball/chain lightning from an ele does better, costs more, but then again they have more energy to give.

Plus in an IW build the windfall of adrenaline and the extra energy from the zealous mod is negated due to the sword not actually contacting. Overall I didn't see a problem then, and I still don't see one now.

I agree that CA might be a little overpowerful but only when used in the correct situation. But you cant really ask for a non-elite skill to be made elite at this point. That would throw way to many people off.

Stop Comparing Apples And Oranges Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why not? They are different and in some people's opinion apples are better than oranges!...

But back to the topic, I was never around when HUNdred Blades was non elite and I didn't know that it was used with IW and Conjure, ( which by the way, as I speak now, doesnt seem all that overpowered at all ) but when i think about it now it wouldn't be too overpowered either, plus a warrior would have mana to worry about as well with HB costing energy and IW costing energy and conjure costing energy. I'm sure people got over this energy problem considering this build WAS in fact used in the past, but it seems like a major obstacle to me. Maybe I'm just not thinking too clearly tonight, but is HB the only swords elite? If so, why..?

IW is usually used on Me/W, not W/Me, so energy is no problem.

It doesn't... until you would hit someone with the axe... axes have a much smaller cutting edge compared to a sword. I could see a sword cutting someone and continue through to the next victim, due to it's design. An Axe however, when you hit someone it could get stuck on that victim for it's small cutting edge. It's a case of "hacking" vs "slashing"... I think a slashing tool (sword) would function better in a "cyclone attack" style then a hacking tool (axe).

Someone more knowledgable should correct me: but axes were more often used as offhand weapons then primary... the fact that GW has Axes pegged a single handed weapons is a bit off IMHO, especially as primary weapons...

Swords just need a better elite, maybe a combination of final thrust and sever artery?

I love my axe though. An axe's damage spikes are the best, especialy when I did a crit eviscerate on another warrior for 192 dmg.

Swinging your weapon around in a big circle to cut lots of guys at once is a really bad idea no matter what kind of weapon it is. Unless it's like a lightsaber or something, I guess. But a plain old metal sword or axe? No way.


Offhand? I've never even heard of someone using an axe in their off-hand other than in fantasy RPGs. It seems terribly impractical. Axes were usually used with shields, or two-handed... much like swords and hammers, really...

Let's bring some sanity back into this thread:

Realism is irrelevant. In real life, axes dont do more damage than swords. If you hit someone on the head with an axe OR a sword, THEY DIE. They dont take 40 damage out of 400. They DIE. Trying to use realism as any sort of argument is pointless. (Besides, something like a Fellblade or Brute Sword is easily just as big, fat and heavy as an axe. In fact, there are NO light swords in this game, except short sword/gladius)

Why are we comparing CA to Hundred Blades? Regardless of CA/HB, the fact remains that swords are much poorer than axes. Empirically speaking, the accepted wisdom is that if you want to run a standard damage Warrior in pvp, you use an axe, and you use Eviscerate, Executioners, Penetrating, Sprint, Frenzy, etc.

As for the point that "Damage isnt everything"... unfortunately, swords dont have any useful utility that might make up for their lack of damage. The Riposte skills aren't particularly useful as damage -or- defense. Hamstring is probably the closest there is, but it's far from so good that it makes swords worth using all by itself.


And now for my own bit of insanity:

My personal fix (from another sanitarium thread) is to make swords have a faster attack speed than axe. I like faster attack speeds. And it'll help with sword's high adren skills.
- Also make HB recharge every 5 secs.
- Make riposte a 2 adren cost, but reduce its damage somewhat. Reduce the recharge of deadly riposte. Make them block projectiles too, but not deal damage back to them.
- Make flourish a sword skill again. And make it non-elite.

WE HAVE A WINNER!

Sword has one Elite. Axe has 2. Hammer has 3.

The condition which most Axe skills function off of is "Deep Wound". The non-elite Axe skill used to give deep wound is called "Dismember". The primary non-elite Damaging skill used is "Executioner's Axe". "Eviscerate" is a combination of "Dismember" and "Executioner's Axe".

The condition which most Hammer skills function off of is "Weakness". The non-elite Hammer skill used to give weakness is called "Staggering Blow". The primary non-elite Knockdown skill used is "Hammer Bash". "Devestating Hammer" is a combination of "Staggering Blow" and "Hammer Bash".

Why not give Sword an equivelent to Eviscerate or Devastating Hammer? Though I'd prefer it Galrath+Sever Artery (yet have low adren. cost) because if your health is below 50% and you get hit by a final thrust, I don't think bleeding would do much more to you at this point.

speak for yourself...I want a combination of Hundred Blades and Final Thrust

ie. 2 final thrusts on all adjacent foes ^^;

The only thing sword is good for is looks. I posted that before.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=45281

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=53252

You don't need an elite for sword.

People use it more for utility warriors as opposed to straight up damage.

Sweeping generalizations gain you no marks.

Hundred blades sucks. What else is there to say?

Guys all i am seeing here is a bunch of people.. cept a few... who are saying.. swords need to be the new UBER 1337 weapon for warriors.

First.. swords should be faster than axes(i agree here..., but the speed must be balanced, and you cannot have skills that would make you do more damage than an axe for the following reason..). Swords do receive a few utility/defense skills. Swords arent meant to be the ultimate kill all weapon that is a mix of all idealogies. Basically this weapon is used defensively and also for quick strikes that SUPRISE the opponent.

Second.. axes should be the in between of swords and hammers for speed. Axes in general terms are better for hacking, ie the damage spikes they do is what they should be doing.. mass damage, and having the ability to wound you.

Third.. hammers should be the obvious slowest weapon because of sheer weight/arc or damage. These weapons are meant to disrupt the opponent/ crush them under their weight( i personally believe hammers are the most balanced for their purpose).

what needs to happen.. a sword req skill that gives you the suprise and one that give you the defense option. (you already have two defenses in tactics i believe.. they require swords...)

After this no one should have a reason to piss and moan

Why? Swords DPS from natural swings isn't that much lower than Axe. Doing this would possibly make sword much more common than axes because of damage mods such as SoH, Conjure X, and Order X.

Don't think defensive skills will help establish Sword as a PvP worthy warrior weapon...

Galrath + bleeding just wouldn't be as good as Eviscerate or Devastating Hammer. Deep wound is a much more significant condition than bleeding, for one, and combining it with a high damage bonus makes a very large spike. As for Devastating Hammer, the weakness on that is just a small bonus; people take it because it's a knockdown with no conditions or drawbacks, and can be chained with Hammer Bash.

I'm not sure what would make a good sword elite, but I wouldn't base it around bleeding. Sword warriors need bleeding in order to apply deep wounds, so a bleed skill that's harder to use than Sever Artery just seems like a bad idea.

one easy way to help out the poor swords is to simply bump up the attack rate

Don't forget Final Thrust, I've taken down many an adversary with it.
I don't think the other branches of weapons offers this off the top of my head.
If I'm wrong, sorry in advance.

Mind

sowrds do little damage but are quick
axes do a fair amount of damage and are fairly quick
hammers do loats of damage but are slow
making swords do more damage would brake the balance making 100 blades no elite would break the balance makind cyclon axe elit would brake the balance

if u think swords are underpowered and a cyclon overpowered stop moaning about how unfair it is i have a 3 step plain

1: get money
2:buy axe
3:hit stuff with it using the 'overpowered' cyclone axe


but think about this say ur target is running u would not hit it with cyclone axe but HB would hit it and on a previous post about making swords more like fencers all i say is riptose and deadly riptose
Also if u think very hard ull remeber that people use axes to cut down tress not swords because there thicker and if u swung a sword at it
1: it would brake caus its to thin
2; ud never get wnough swing in a sword un less it was 2 handed

Simple solution is make Cyclone Axe elite - it hits more than one foe at a time, and the equivelent sword (hundred blades) and bow (barrage) skills are elites so why not the axe one?

Actually i think the recharge is just going to be increased to 10/15s. Putting three elites in a comparatively small line seems a bit crappy, and frankly thats not the problem, people would still pve tank for teammates with live/bonetties/ca etc. On the dais with ootv cyclone also kicks ass. Its spammability is the main problem in terms of actual usage. Same goes for duel shot.
As for Hb i agree with everous, there is no problem with it being returned to non-elite. If people start ganking with iW mesmers and Hb then that isnt a lot different than spiking with 106 orbs (after 60al ap). In fact its worse, its less damage, body blocking ftl, and enchant stripping owns you in the face. Not to mention that shielding hands puts a huge dent in iW single handedly.

A new Sword elite would have to be finely balanced. With the final thrust in there a big front up damage skill like Eviscerate would make sword too good (finisher/starter skills in one... galrath in the middle... three hit kill no problem). Any sword elite is going to be utilitorious, or similar enough to final thrust that a combo of damageelite-galrath-final wont just kill someone when youve got ji on you.

Either change sword around a lot, or leave it as it is, which is more or less fine when you look hard.

How about this? Change Hundred Blades back to 75%, non elite. Change Final Thrust to an elite. Give it +42, (or whatever), instead of +34. Now everyone's happy, right?

wouldn't bother me i don't use any elite so i guess i'd be using one if you changed it

i think hundred blades should strike more times if it's gonna be a elite it should atleast be strong

I vote for increasing the attack speed of swords. I know realism is irrelevant, but wouldn't you attack slower with an axe, since it would get stuck in everything it hits?

Also, this would give sword warriors, like myself, the role as "DPS"-warriors. Axe warriors spike, hammer warriors disrupt and sword warriors...Kick enemies when they're down? Come on...

Faster attack speed wouldn't be realistic because: E=MC^2
Energy = Weight x Speed ^2

That means that the faster you move your sword the more damage you'll do. So faster attack speed would actually give you a damage increase of... something like 25%... I dunno, it isn't relevant anyway.

The point is that making swords attack faster would help alot!

Boosting Hundred Blades, making it non-elite and lower damage, sounds fine but I'd rather have the universal, constant faster attack speed.

My 2 cents.

This is a better alternative than having hundred blades the shit elite that it is currently. although it does have its uses. its a great way to energy regen with a zealous weapon