Why would you want to take them away??
Because very few people use them? I do use them and as it doesn't really bother you (does it?) why should I not be able to use them anymore?
I have no idea how you would want to make them more useable as they are at the moment. And also, for the beginners they are very useable I think, especially the monks as the monk superiors are 7+ K.
Major runes. Why so much health?
Medion
Illidan
I would not take them away. No reason to do that.
Damon Windwalker
I donno. Nearly every one of my characters at least has Major Vigor. I don't have the 280k to equip each with a superior....
Sol_Vie
Nah keep em in... they can come in handy. Especially in the case of Major vigors and Major Absorbtions.
Rikimaru
I think they should reduce the health cost of majors to -30 or -25.
Cartoonhero
i use majors, some of the superiors such as absorption and vigor are just too expensive.
fallot
Who cares what they sell for ? How can you say they arent useful ? Haven't you ever been in a situation where you only needed a +2 to any particular attribute ? Take Expertise for example, its enough to get it to 14 for most builds. That can be done easily with a major expertise, why should I sacrifice 25 health for an extra point that I dont need ?
Vilaptca
Runes don't stack Mordakai.
Mordakai
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Vilaptca
Runes don't stack Mordakai.
|
+6 to your atts in General (ie, +2 for 3 different attributes).
This is MUCH BETTER for the price (-75 HP, for example), than the additional +1 you get from a Sup.
To put it even clearer, you could have 3 attributes at at least 12, or one at 16.
Which would you chose?
Greygon
I know Vigor and Absorbtion are viable as Majors... But other than those 2 (which I was refering to when I said "with 2 exceptions") I still feel that they get NO use compared to Superiors or even Minors for that matter. They sell for less than minors... Most characters in my experience (not all, just most) set up with all Minors and 1 Superior. At the -50hp I still feel Majors are not a viable alternative and need to be changed in some way to make them better for the cost.
Carinae
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Vilaptca
Runes don't stack Mordakai.
|
Two different runes.
Vilaptca
Ok, I see what you're saying now.
Mordakai
Or maybe INCREASE the HP penalty on Sup. Runes to make them less attractive....
Here's the problem with decreasing the HP penalty on Major Runes:
You could have two (or more) majors with LESS -HP than a Sup.
-35 Maj. Rune Example: 2 Majors for a total of +4 in TWO attributes less HP penalty as ONE Sup for +3 in single att.
Even if Majors were -40 HP, wouldn't it be better to have +4 for -80 HP, than +3 for -75?
The only way to really balance out the Runes, is to have +1 Runes be -25 HP.
(Which I'm NOT proposing, BTW!)
Here's the problem with decreasing the HP penalty on Major Runes:
You could have two (or more) majors with LESS -HP than a Sup.
-35 Maj. Rune Example: 2 Majors for a total of +4 in TWO attributes less HP penalty as ONE Sup for +3 in single att.
Even if Majors were -40 HP, wouldn't it be better to have +4 for -80 HP, than +3 for -75?
The only way to really balance out the Runes, is to have +1 Runes be -25 HP.
(Which I'm NOT proposing, BTW!)
Epinephrine
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mordakai
Even if Majors were -40 HP, wouldn't it be better to have +4 for -80 HP, than +3 for -75?
|
-37.5 or -40 sound fine to me. I agree that the -50 is annoying and renders them essentially worthless, excepting as a bonus if you can't afford the superior in PvE (done that before).
Mr. Self Destruct
This is absolutely rediculous. Hardly anyone uses majors? Did you do a survey? My suggestion is if you dont like them dont use them and leave the many players who dont buy platinum off ebay alone.
babychaos
I agree with Greygon.
The player percieved value of attribute-based Major runes is zero (which is about what the trader buys them for). Either you have the freebie Minor Rune, or your single specialist attribute Superior Rune (typically combined with the hat to get the attribute to 16). I would take a bet that a good percentage of players have the following rune layout (I'm talking PvE here, I don't do PvP);
Major Vigor
Minor
Minor
Minor (insert Major Absorbtion here for a warrior)
Superior <insert favourite attribute here>
I do however see that the HP loss needs to be balanced against the Minor and Superior runes. Mordakai has it right that the proper way to do it would be to make minors -25HP, but that would be a horrendous idea.
Perhaps
1 Major Rune = -25HP
2 Major Runes or more = -50HP each
This would also encourage people to multi-class more, rather than focus specifically on one skill line
BC
The player percieved value of attribute-based Major runes is zero (which is about what the trader buys them for). Either you have the freebie Minor Rune, or your single specialist attribute Superior Rune (typically combined with the hat to get the attribute to 16). I would take a bet that a good percentage of players have the following rune layout (I'm talking PvE here, I don't do PvP);
Major Vigor
Minor
Minor
Minor (insert Major Absorbtion here for a warrior)
Superior <insert favourite attribute here>
I do however see that the HP loss needs to be balanced against the Minor and Superior runes. Mordakai has it right that the proper way to do it would be to make minors -25HP, but that would be a horrendous idea.
Perhaps
1 Major Rune = -25HP
2 Major Runes or more = -50HP each
This would also encourage people to multi-class more, rather than focus specifically on one skill line
BC
Yichi
IN PVE I always use majors. Saves me tons of cash and still does more than its share of getting the job done. lets see major axe rune = 100g, sup axe rune = 3.4k... for only one less attribute which means that i cant do an extra 6 dmg. which would u choose as the best bang for your buck?
Zhou Feng
I will put this input based on PvP NOT PvE. When it comes down to making a PvP character and since I have Sup and Maj Runes unlocked for Vigor and Absorption, most of the time I go two major or one sup and one major with sup vigor eliminating one of the major effects in health effect. Or all min and one sup depending on how much health I need or want.
Skuld
I always used to use majors before I had the gold to buy sups.
Racthoh
Obviously there are some runes where you are better off to just get the Superior because the cost isn't very detremental. But look at Superior Vigor compared to Major. Something like 50k less for 9 extra health. Ditto for Superior Absorption, you can settle for the -2 until you can afford the extra -3.
Other examples would have to be monk runes. I would've settled for Major had I not had the gold for a superior because the cost is like 10k cheaper. Others would probably just go for minor.
Other examples would have to be monk runes. I would've settled for Major had I not had the gold for a superior because the cost is like 10k cheaper. Others would probably just go for minor.
ChoKILLate[FDG]
Even if there is not a big cost difference I often prefer major over superior. The +1 to skill is not as good with the -25 to health. With the major, I can offset with things like enchantments.
I also prefer 2 majors (-100hp) vs 1 superior and definately over 2 superiors (-150hp) in most cases. For an ele, I will have one major energy storage, and one major rune in the element I am using. I put this rune in the corresponding headpiece, so I can switch them out as needed.
I also prefer 2 majors (-100hp) vs 1 superior and definately over 2 superiors (-150hp) in most cases. For an ele, I will have one major energy storage, and one major rune in the element I am using. I put this rune in the corresponding headpiece, so I can switch them out as needed.
Phades
The only thing that the relative cost shows from the rune traders, is how common they are as drops and how in demand they are for pve characters. Currently the attribute major runes really don't have any really value. Sure you could go +2, +2, +3 for a stat line of 1
2, 12, 14 (10, 12, 14 for using a secondary profession attribute line). But that would not net much benefit in many different builds, rangers come to mind as that setup being "desireable", but not much else. Also, the skill bar does not get biggger with the more attributes you have, so splitting up also makes the character the weaker overall, if you went 4+ attribute lines. 11, 11, 15, or similar splits also allow for more attribute points to be freed up for the secondary profession, creating combinations like 11, 10, 15, or 11, 14, 11 that the triple major runes can not create because of the amount of attribute points the superior rune saves.
I would most certainly not choose the option that would cost me 120 hp to pull off that setup for the same reason why i would not choose to use two superior runes at the 150hp cost. Even so, you still get +1 more point going the superior route over the major rune route because you cant stack runes. The only way the majors could compete in that scenario, is if they didn't take a vigor rune and were playing a warrior or an elementalist, while also choosing to include rune bonuses to attribute lines they didnt use.
Unless major runes were discounted heavily since skill bar space, attribute points, and rune locations come at a premium there is no point to using them at all and just fill up data base space like all of the "less useful" skills do. Arguing theoretical hp shifting doesn't help the situation either, because HP are also a premium that can not be readily exchanged either. Things like vital blessing will get stripped, symbiosis can just add to the damage spike with a rend, and fertile season/endure pain/defy pain isn't permenant. The parity between major and superior vigors is pretty bad as well, but not in the superior's side though.
*edit
If this discussion were to be really meaningful, the minor runes for attributes would need to cost hp to wear and the vigor runes would need to negate the hp cost of the attribute runes worn instead of a hp modifier.
2, 12, 14 (10, 12, 14 for using a secondary profession attribute line). But that would not net much benefit in many different builds, rangers come to mind as that setup being "desireable", but not much else. Also, the skill bar does not get biggger with the more attributes you have, so splitting up also makes the character the weaker overall, if you went 4+ attribute lines. 11, 11, 15, or similar splits also allow for more attribute points to be freed up for the secondary profession, creating combinations like 11, 10, 15, or 11, 14, 11 that the triple major runes can not create because of the amount of attribute points the superior rune saves.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mordakai
Sorry, I wasn't clearer in my post. I was speaking of NET bonuses:
+6 to your atts in General (ie, +2 for 3 different attributes). This is MUCH BETTER for the price (-75 HP, for example), than the additional +1 you get from a Sup. To put it even clearer, you could have 3 attributes at at least 12, or one at 16. Which would you chose? |
Unless major runes were discounted heavily since skill bar space, attribute points, and rune locations come at a premium there is no point to using them at all and just fill up data base space like all of the "less useful" skills do. Arguing theoretical hp shifting doesn't help the situation either, because HP are also a premium that can not be readily exchanged either. Things like vital blessing will get stripped, symbiosis can just add to the damage spike with a rend, and fertile season/endure pain/defy pain isn't permenant. The parity between major and superior vigors is pretty bad as well, but not in the superior's side though.
*edit
If this discussion were to be really meaningful, the minor runes for attributes would need to cost hp to wear and the vigor runes would need to negate the hp cost of the attribute runes worn instead of a hp modifier.
Greygon
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by MistressYichi
IN PVE I always use majors. Saves me tons of cash and still does more than its share of getting the job done. lets see major axe rune = 100g, sup axe rune = 3.4k... for only one less attribute which means that i cant do an extra 6 dmg. which would u choose as the best bang for your buck?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Racthoh
But look at Superior Vigor compared to Major. Something like 50k less for 9 extra health. Ditto for Superior Absorption, you can settle for the -2 until you can afford the extra -3.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Skuld
I always used to use majors before I had the gold to buy sups.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by babychaos
I agree with Greygon.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ChoKILLate(FDG)
Even if there is not a big cost difference I often prefer major over superior. The +1 to skill is not as good with the -25 to health. With the major, I can offset with things like enchantments.
I also prefer 2 majors (-100hp) vs 1 superior and definately over 2 superiors (-150hp) in most cases. For an ele, I will have one major energy storage, and one major rune in the element I am using. I put this rune in the corresponding headpiece, so I can switch them out as needed. |
Kai Nui
They hinder you from unlocking superior runes in PVP and if you don't like them just don't use them. It's like saying all classes should be banned except Mesmer and Monk because I don't use anything else. (although I do)
Greygon
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Kai Nui
It's like saying all classes should be banned except Mesmer and Monk because I don't use anything else. (although I do)
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DeanBB
I don't use warrior armor either so lets remove it from the game as well!
|
I do not want them taken out because I don't use them... I don't use LOTS of items in this game... I just think that for as large a percentage of the runes that are found as they are, they are a waste of time effort and space. I for one would rather find a light blue armor than a purple, and OH JOY when I ID that beautiful RARE GOLD Armor 40 and it turns out to be a MAJOR WATER it just makes me SMILE!
Arcanis the Omnipotent
HP hits from runes in general need to be lessed. Like -25 and -50.
Jumping from a Minor -0 to -50 is a harsh harsh jump.
Especially when you take into account that a pefect health upgrade is only 30, and they're hard to come by. And that's just one extra +30. Using more than one Major leads up in to the 100, 150 even 250 negative.
I dont know about you, but health sacrifice for a tad more power isnt really that worth it, atleast not the ammount they're asking for.
Jumping from a Minor -0 to -50 is a harsh harsh jump.
Especially when you take into account that a pefect health upgrade is only 30, and they're hard to come by. And that's just one extra +30. Using more than one Major leads up in to the 100, 150 even 250 negative.
I dont know about you, but health sacrifice for a tad more power isnt really that worth it, atleast not the ammount they're asking for.
{IceFire}
/signed.
Malchior Devenholm
A few things that needs to be or not to be done about the runes...
1. Do NOT put a health penalty on minor, talk about screwing the flow and the noobs
2. Major has to be decreased (pretty sure we all agree on that) but how much? Personally, i favor the 40 price for majors. This would allow more variety in builds for both PvE and PvP as players could invest in a variety of combinations--- +2 in 2 attributes for -80 health (with sup vig penalty drops to -30, with additional max health mod penalty=0) allowing for a normal -75 penalty health sup IF THE ABOVE CONDITIONS ARE MET. If a person doesn't have a health mod to a weapon or offhand they are left with a -20 penalty, a substantial amount IMO. Also, a noob could buy a minor vig then combine with 1 major to give them the little extra boost they'll need (with a -10 health penalty which is a sufficient amount for a noob) Also, if a person has enough health or health mods it could be possible to use 3 majors at 1 time; therefore boosting all 3 mods of the person's build-this condition would probably better suited for PvP instead of PvE.
3. Superior can not drop in penalty, the invincimonks will flare us all
--and although it is widely abused, we don't wanna tick off so many players....(at least i don't
)
1. Do NOT put a health penalty on minor, talk about screwing the flow and the noobs
2. Major has to be decreased (pretty sure we all agree on that) but how much? Personally, i favor the 40 price for majors. This would allow more variety in builds for both PvE and PvP as players could invest in a variety of combinations--- +2 in 2 attributes for -80 health (with sup vig penalty drops to -30, with additional max health mod penalty=0) allowing for a normal -75 penalty health sup IF THE ABOVE CONDITIONS ARE MET. If a person doesn't have a health mod to a weapon or offhand they are left with a -20 penalty, a substantial amount IMO. Also, a noob could buy a minor vig then combine with 1 major to give them the little extra boost they'll need (with a -10 health penalty which is a sufficient amount for a noob) Also, if a person has enough health or health mods it could be possible to use 3 majors at 1 time; therefore boosting all 3 mods of the person's build-this condition would probably better suited for PvP instead of PvE.
3. Superior can not drop in penalty, the invincimonks will flare us all
--and although it is widely abused, we don't wanna tick off so many players....(at least i don't)
Guardian of the Light
/signed I think -50 health is retarded too.
SaintGreg
I think runes should go from:
10
25
75
Now, realizing that they will never put a penatly on minor runes, as it would be pretty disruptive in general to PvE, and they would get flamed like mad, there is no reason they cannot lower the major rune cost. Something like:
0
30
75
would not seriously affect anyone, and it would make people want to consider major runes for PvP, and even in PvE for reasons other than the cost of sups. Right now the only time you might consider a major in pvp, is if you needed every last bit of hp you could scrounge (in which case all minors would probably make more sense).
10
25
75
Now, realizing that they will never put a penatly on minor runes, as it would be pretty disruptive in general to PvE, and they would get flamed like mad, there is no reason they cannot lower the major rune cost. Something like:
0
30
75
would not seriously affect anyone, and it would make people want to consider major runes for PvP, and even in PvE for reasons other than the cost of sups. Right now the only time you might consider a major in pvp, is if you needed every last bit of hp you could scrounge (in which case all minors would probably make more sense).
Skuld
Sorry, that should have been major with no s, and on my latest character i did use all minors
Phades
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by SaintGreg
I think runes should go from:
10 25 75 Now, realizing that they will never put a penatly on minor runes, as it would be pretty disruptive in general to PvE, and they would get flamed like mad, here is no reason they cannot lower the major rune cost. |
Superior vigor- negates 1 superior rune, or 2 major and 2 minor.
(people would still probably prefer superior runes in this instance though, might possibly need to be 3 & 1 to make it more attractive, but that seems a little over the top)
Major vigor- negates 1 major and 1 minor, or 4 minor runes.
Minor vigor- negates 2 minor runes.
Something like the above would add more depth in build creation and make it alot less cookie cutter in some instances because you are managing more things at the same time. The things are space versus attribute level and total hp used to augment.
The major rune hp cost might be a little low in this quoted example, perhaps 30-35 might be more approrpiate.
Mr. Self Destruct
Greygon, how exactly would you justify Anet wasting their time and pissing off 90% of their customers to remove an element from the game that is totally optional and has no detremental effects on anyone? The question is not how common their usage is (I imagine much moreso than you think) or their monetary value, but what exactly warrants their removal? If using a major gave a player an unfair advantage, then an argument for removing them would be understandable. But they do not create an unbalance. Removing them would be pointless.
However, I will agree with you that extracting a major rune from gold armor is bs and this should have been fixed a long time ago.
However, I will agree with you that extracting a major rune from gold armor is bs and this should have been fixed a long time ago.
CONNAN ERVIN
i believe that superior worth his money when u need to make a poverfool char 9 hp may save your life one day that is the diference and for warrior when run around that is very needet
i believe better take a superior vigor that a major one when u have the $$
i believe better take a superior vigor that a major one when u have the $$
CONNAN ERVIN
and forgot something to say my monk become invincible when he have superior vigor at 60 dp he cant be with major rune of vigor he need superior to have 17 ho carculate that and see the big change your like cant be reduced more than 14 hp when u have deep wound usualy hapens when u have major rune of vigor so starter farm in uw need to use it if he dies and change his arenal until he know to use 50hp is only combination in 55 monks when they die in big dps
and i believe in role playing the 50 hp run is the most valuable thing in the game i can make u sure for this
and i believe in role playing the 50 hp run is the most valuable thing in the game i can make u sure for this
CONNAN ERVIN
and that can be used pvp too np if good strategy whay not? some shader enchantmets cant kill
eur0b0y69
I use Majors alot in PvE, i dont see why take them out. Im a W/Mo and i have many different farming spots, for each i use either sword/axe or hammer, buying superior runes each time will cost a lot of money, but majors cost 100gp each , saves me a lot of money. If u dont like them dont use them, but dont take them out of the game.
Age
I think they need to stay as they are as for both PvE and PvP.The only superior runes that are expensive right now are warrior absorbtion and monk and a few others but mostly the monk runes.This is becuase of all the solo builds although they can't be used in PvP you will need your maxium health.
/not signed.
/not signed.
darkdragon99
i'd never use a sup or a major beyound vigor i'd never take a hp hit for 1 more attribute or 2 more than i can get out of a minor for nothing
ghezbora
I agree majors need to be un-sucked. In general, the population uses minors (because they have no penalty) or superiors (because the cost/benefit ratio is superior to majors). Whether you accept the health loss or not, the vast majority think major runes are trash -- if you don't believe me, ask the rune trader.
Making the penalty less severe (-40 sounds good to me too) would just add more variety to the game, since it would make major runes a more serious consideration when making a build.
Whether or not you do or would use them is irrelevant to whether or not it is a good change to the game. I know my monk has 2 superiors and is very happy with them, so I wouldn't be using any majors either way, but I still think it's a good idea.
/signed
Making the penalty less severe (-40 sounds good to me too) would just add more variety to the game, since it would make major runes a more serious consideration when making a build.
Whether or not you do or would use them is irrelevant to whether or not it is a good change to the game. I know my monk has 2 superiors and is very happy with them, so I wouldn't be using any majors either way, but I still think it's a good idea.
/signed