Me/N Energy Degen
Shwitz
Points taken, smurfhunter. I guess taking chunks of energy could be considered a form of energy degen... I'll continue using both energy burning and traditional energy degen and see which one I like better... heck, maybe I can somehow incorporate both into a build, degen one guy and burn another! Thanks for the input.
smurfhunter
i actually heard of a slightly amusing one where you use signet of weariness, mantra of signets, and make sure someone on your team uses QZ. you can cast it almost non stop, but its only going to work if you have a QZer on your team
(something thats getting more and more common as crappy monks start to rely on their woh spam >.<)
(something thats getting more and more common as crappy monks start to rely on their woh spam >.<)
NatalieD
The difference between "chunks" and actual energy degen is that the enemy can use skills (cheap ones, at least) in between the chunkings. Degen removes the energy preemptively, so to speak, so they never get a chance to cast with it.
Shwitz
Also true... good point Natalie. It lets them cast more initially, since they'll still have energy, but later on they'll be gasping for energy if the degen hexes are kept on the target. It's a trade-off: less energy now, or less energy (and ability to gain it back) later?
clonmac
I like energy degen way better. The reason is because with energy degen, once the target gets to 0 energy, then they are pretty much stuck there for a long time. When you remove chucks of energy with say energy surge or energy burn, then after dropping them to 0 with them, they have another 20 seconds or so before the next strike. This gives them time to either get some heals off or to get some energy management skills off like Mantra of Recall.
Not only that, say the target only has about 4 energy because they used some skills in that 20 seconds window, now when you cast energy burn, you will only be draining 4 energy. So it then wouldn't even be reaching its maximum potential.
The important fact here is that with energy degen, you are always at their full potential. You are always draining their energy at a constant rate. If you have enough degen on the target to stop their energy regen then they have to really think of how they want to spend their energy. Because basically they will have say 40 energy to spend and then that is it. If they decided to spend some of that 40 energy on say hex removal, then you can just recast Wither/Malaise and now they have just wasted some of their energy. So once they've used that energy pool, now they are stuck at 0 energy that won't be regained anytime soon.
So to sum up, I think the point of energy draining your target is to prevent them from casting spells for any period of time. I think the best way to do that is with energy degen and not through drain spiking.
Not only that, say the target only has about 4 energy because they used some skills in that 20 seconds window, now when you cast energy burn, you will only be draining 4 energy. So it then wouldn't even be reaching its maximum potential.
The important fact here is that with energy degen, you are always at their full potential. You are always draining their energy at a constant rate. If you have enough degen on the target to stop their energy regen then they have to really think of how they want to spend their energy. Because basically they will have say 40 energy to spend and then that is it. If they decided to spend some of that 40 energy on say hex removal, then you can just recast Wither/Malaise and now they have just wasted some of their energy. So once they've used that energy pool, now they are stuck at 0 energy that won't be regained anytime soon.
So to sum up, I think the point of energy draining your target is to prevent them from casting spells for any period of time. I think the best way to do that is with energy degen and not through drain spiking.
Yukito Kunisaki
Fear Me!! > ALL your energy degen spells! 
3 Warrior's with smart fear Me!! setups is the ultimate Energy Denial Skill!
No amount of focus switching, energy management, etc. can save you from -XX pips of degen...
But at any rate, since energy degen IS nerfed to quite a degree, I still like using energy theft as a means to keep my energy high. Good for when you're trying to slam high cost skills into your enemy's faces...
3 Warrior's with smart fear Me!! setups is the ultimate Energy Denial Skill!
No amount of focus switching, energy management, etc. can save you from -XX pips of degen...
But at any rate, since energy degen IS nerfed to quite a degree, I still like using energy theft as a means to keep my energy high. Good for when you're trying to slam high cost skills into your enemy's faces...
smurfhunter
actually yukito the reason i never really like the fear me-ing (and i tried) was that if you put it on a warrior, its all that warriors gonna do. really quite depressing, you have to choose between high tactics, (you need 13 for a -4 fear me AND it takes forever to get anything else charged), and, like damage? so.. thats one reason i didnt like them.
but i did think of a new use for malaise! watch. you put malaise on them, make it at least a 10 second malaise. when it goes off, that either means your target focus swapped or theyre dumb. if theyre dumb why bother edenialing them, so pretend theyre smart. if malaise ends (like you no longer have -2 pips) then you hit them with energy surge/burn and you know for a fact that you have them all the way down to 5 energy. using only malaise and energy burn
whoopee ima go try that out now
but i did think of a new use for malaise! watch. you put malaise on them, make it at least a 10 second malaise. when it goes off, that either means your target focus swapped or theyre dumb. if theyre dumb why bother edenialing them, so pretend theyre smart. if malaise ends (like you no longer have -2 pips) then you hit them with energy surge/burn and you know for a fact that you have them all the way down to 5 energy. using only malaise and energy burn
whoopee ima go try that out now
Kabale
You shouldn't assume all warriors are damage-dealers. Like Yukito said, they can be excellent energy deniers. You just have to make sure they can gain adrenaline quick enough. Warrior's cunning/rigor mortis will give them plently of hits and Dark Fury will give them the adrenaline. Echo fear me ftw xD
Yukito Kunisaki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabale
You shouldn't assume all warriors are damage-dealers. Like Yukito said, they can be excellent energy deniers. You just have to make sure they can gain adrenaline quick enough. Warrior's cunning/rigor mortis will give them plently of hits and Dark Fury will give them the adrenaline. Echo fear me ftw xD
Eviscerate {E}
Exe Strike
Fear Me!!
I don't see what the trouble is. If you're not doing damage with these 3 skills, what are you going for? DPS? lol...
Using Evis + Exe Strike when the enemy's hp starts to dive past the 75% mark is the idea really. If their hp is high, just shout your head off.
Good one Kabale. AoE energy denial to me is FAR more efficient than a 1 shot skill lock on one foe...
Exe Strike
Fear Me!!
I don't see what the trouble is. If you're not doing damage with these 3 skills, what are you going for? DPS? lol...
Using Evis + Exe Strike when the enemy's hp starts to dive past the 75% mark is the idea really. If their hp is high, just shout your head off.
Good one Kabale. AoE energy denial to me is FAR more efficient than a 1 shot skill lock on one foe...
2_fingers
Btw, sidenote, there is a boss in pve - one of the necro titans who does the malise and wither combi. I saw this boss at that place north of citadel, the one with the billion avicara (the location name escapes me). It was shocking to see intelligent bosses using their skills on monks correctly.
smurfhunter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki
Eviscerate {E}
Exe Strike
Fear Me!!
I don't see what the trouble is. If you're not doing damage with these 3 skills, what are you going for? DPS? lol...
Using Evis + Exe Strike when the enemy's hp starts to dive past the 75% mark is the idea really. If their hp is high, just shout your head off.
Good one Kabale. AoE energy denial to me is FAR more efficient than a 1 shot skill lock on one foe... but to charge fear me you need sprint which is in the strength attribute. to attack faster you need to choose something like frenzy since all the rest end fi you use a non attack skill (or any skill >.<). and things like aegis and ward against melee are incredibly harsh to a fear me spammer. and the range sucks now, etc etc. i think a dedicated signet of weariness mesmer is better just purely for aoe energy denial.
if you echo it, you might as well switch to sword since you used up your elite on echo. final thrust takes all of two years to charge with *two* fear me's, and it doesnt even do that much damage since your targets hp isnt below 50%.
and on top of all that, in a team build this warrior can at best participate in a percentage of your spikes, unless you want to wait horribly long before each new spike. so if you add those two together you get shitty spike damage, shitty energy denial, overall very crappy.
i think im sticking to my mesmer for now...
Exe Strike
Fear Me!!
I don't see what the trouble is. If you're not doing damage with these 3 skills, what are you going for? DPS? lol...
Using Evis + Exe Strike when the enemy's hp starts to dive past the 75% mark is the idea really. If their hp is high, just shout your head off.
Good one Kabale. AoE energy denial to me is FAR more efficient than a 1 shot skill lock on one foe... but to charge fear me you need sprint which is in the strength attribute. to attack faster you need to choose something like frenzy since all the rest end fi you use a non attack skill (or any skill >.<). and things like aegis and ward against melee are incredibly harsh to a fear me spammer. and the range sucks now, etc etc. i think a dedicated signet of weariness mesmer is better just purely for aoe energy denial.
if you echo it, you might as well switch to sword since you used up your elite on echo. final thrust takes all of two years to charge with *two* fear me's, and it doesnt even do that much damage since your targets hp isnt below 50%.
and on top of all that, in a team build this warrior can at best participate in a percentage of your spikes, unless you want to wait horribly long before each new spike. so if you add those two together you get shitty spike damage, shitty energy denial, overall very crappy.
i think im sticking to my mesmer for now...
QuixotesGhost
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shwitz
14 Domination
8 Fast Casting
11 Inspiration
9 Curses
1. Panic {E}
2. Malaise
3. Energy Burn
4. Signet of Weariness
5. Mind Wrack
6. Power Drain
7. Ether Lord
8. Res Sig
No defense, no self-heal... how do I make something like this work?
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Originally Posted by smurfhunter
i actually heard of a slightly amusing one where you use signet of weariness, mantra of signets, and make sure someone on your team uses QZ. you can cast it almost non stop, but its only going to work if you have a QZer on your team
I was thinking about making a Panic Mesmer today, and I wonder what would happen if you combined these two builds. Signets w/ Panic, becuase Panic is freaking expensive. 25 energy with a 10 second recharge... Harsh.
I was thinking something like this.... Panic Malaise Drain Enchantment/Inspired Hex/Power Drain Mantra of Inscriptions Signet of Weariness Signet of Humility Leech Signet Res Sig That might free up your energy pool enough to take advantage of Panic's 10 second recharge. Credits to FengShuiBundi for getting me to seriously look at signets on a mes.
Shwitz
An interesting idea, QuixotesGhost. My one dislike with signets is that most of them have 2 second activation times, which seems to me like a huge burden, but the signets you've listed are all pretty quick (well, Weariness and Leech, anyway. Humility is still 2, but that can be dealt with). I wouldn't want to take something like this into the Competition Arenas, but if you drop the Res Sig for something more useful, you might be able to use this for energy denial in 8v8... apply Panic, use Malaise as a cover hex. If they don't remove Malaise, they have no energy regen, and if they do, you can always just slap it back on. Sig of Humility for some painful consequences for people who rely on their elite, Leech Sig and Sig of Weariness for some denial/interruption... pretty good all around build, causes chaos and havoc. Just how I like it. What attribute levels would you be using with this? Seems like Domination, Inspiration, Fast Casting and Curses are the focus... 10-10-9-7 arrangement? What runes?
QuixotesGhost
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shwitz
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shwitz
I wouldn't want to take something like this into the Competition Arenas, but if you drop the Res Sig for something more useful, you might be able to use this for energy denial in 8v8... apply Panic, use Malaise as a cover hex. If they don't remove Malaise, they have no energy regen, and if they do, you can always just slap it back on. Sig of Humility for some painful consequences for people who rely on their elite, Leech Sig and Sig of Weariness for some denial/interruption... pretty good all around build, causes chaos and havoc. Just how I like it. What attribute levels would you be using with this? Seems like Domination, Inspiration, Fast Casting and Curses are the focus... 10-10-9-7 arrangement? What runes?
Personally I'll start playing around with:
Domination: 11+3 Inspiration: 11+1+1 Fast Casting: 6+1 Curses: 6 I'm going to mess around around a bit with Inspiration and Domination levels to see what works best. It might be useful to pump Inspiration all the way to 15 for faster sig recharges and more energy to keep panic going. Malaise is fairly respectable at 17 seconds for 6 curses (I'm guessing it's either focus switched or removed before then). Still gotta get Panic unlocked before I do anything with it however.
JayOfTeror
Quote:
Originally Posted by clonmac
Through out the time I am using Wither/Malaise, I spam Ether Feast as much as possible. Even if I don't need the health. It doesn't drain much energy, but like I said, you don't want it to. But what it can do is drop an enemies energy to 0 making Malaise come off, this let's you know that they are at 0 energy and that you can cast Ether Lord.
Hmmm. Why not just echo Inspire Hex? When they cast Wither/Malaise on you thats great. Use those two hexes to build up your energy. Than cast heals. Echo the Inspire Hex and when he cast Ether Lord thats great. Use that hex to build up your energy and cast heals again. Or cast offense. Whatever you want. I think its very possible to use hexes to your advantage, especially in PvP battles. Has anyone experimented with an Echo Inspire Hex Build? Regards, -J
Yukito Kunisaki
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayOfTeror
Hmmm. Why not just echo Inspire Hex? When they cast Wither/Malaise on you thats great. Use those two hexes to build up your energy. Than cast heals. Echo the Inspire Hex and when he cast Ether Lord thats great. Use that hex to build up your energy and cast heals again. Or cast offense. Whatever you want. I think its very possible to use hexes to your advantage, especially in PvP battles. Has anyone experimented with an Echo Inspire Hex Build?
Regards, -J I think Arcane Echoed Inspire Hex would just be better in terms of elite usage. Echo should be for non-spell spammable skills for efficiency in my book.
clonmac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki
I think Arcane Echoed Inspire Hex would just be better in terms of elite usage. Echo should be for non-spell spammable skills for efficiency in my book.
I agree, the only reason to ever use Echo with a spell is if you are tight on energy and want to only spend 5 energy to echo a spell versus 15 energy.
As for Echo'ing Inspired Hex, JayOfTeror, it sounds like a good idea (although I tend to stay away from builds that force me to rely on the enemy to be efficient), but Inspired Hex and Echo have very different recharge times. So after the first usage, you will find that it will be hard to coordinate it after that. Also, usually when you want to remove a hex, you want to get it off of you very quickly. So, to take those extra couple seconds to Echo your Inspired Hex first just doesn't really fit in the big picture.
smurfhunter
if you want to free up your energy pool, i wouldnt take malaise. as a skill thats only effective when spammed, and even then questionably effective, i doubt it can do much for you.
what would be cool is a mo/me that runs life bonds and does that signet of weariness thing... maybe something like this: blessed signet life bond mantra of inscriptions signet of weariness balthazars spirit spellbreaker /martyr (?) aegis resig and then you did something like 13 divine favor, 12 prot, and the rest in inspiration? (oooh i forgot about domination for the signet of weariness.. um.. you definetly need to run dual superiors for this... ) the idea would be to add this on as a 4th monk to do the life bonds, while at the same time doing some dedicated aoe energy degen (with signet of weariness)... that explains the first 4 skills, then i added aegis since it helps teams keep up the rotating aegis (in tombs), i was thinking either martyr to let the 'real' prot monk take a better elite like restore conditions without losing any efficiency in terms of condition control, (while giving this hybrid mesmer a good kind of heal), or take spellbreaker to take advantage of the high divine favor (since the only other thing you use with that is blessed signet) *and* this kind of hybrid character would work really well under QZ, since all the signets (weariness/blessed signet) would recharge really fast, and it could help out your own monks deal with the increased energy cost of QZ. kind of veering off topic but i thought it would be cool
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