A bit of testing leads me to believe that FW (+6/arrow) and RtW do not (unfortunatly) stack damage. Using RtW (at 15 marks - same as lvl 14 - giving +10/arrow) yeilded the same results as RtW + FW.
Can anyone else confirm this?
I did some testing outside Ascalon on the first few level 3 scorps you run in to (high chance for criticals and pretty constant max damage hits). I welcome friendly discussion and insight.
Favorable Winds + Read the Wind = Stack?
id0l
Yichi
yes they stack. 2 of the main things needed for a good ranger spike
id0l
I know it is a favorable combo for a ranger spike (I use it myself). However, after reading a very interesting (and long) thread - I decided to test it for myself. Seems to me, that they do not in fact, stack. I'm looking for more of a solid answer than "yes they stack." Perhaps you could provide some proof to your reasoning? If required, I will try to supply screenshots if doubt it raised by too many people.
Yichi
go to tombs and run with a ranger spike group. youll see in fact they do stack. Thats about my best advice. Everyone running a good ranger spike build in hoh will use read + favorable
id0l
I'm not questioning whether or not HoH spike teams use the combo. I'm questioning whether or not they stack. You can just assume they do because everyone else assumes they do - but that doesn't make it correct.
Batou of Nine
I would also like to see more people provide proof about this debate. I just read another thread about this, and people are saying it does stack, but no one offers any concrete evidence.
I also tested for a bit and it didnt seem to stack for me either. i tested on the Shatter Gargoyles that are all over the ruins right outside of Ascalon. Lvl 3 and 4 and many of them to test on. From what i observed it seemed i only gained dmg increase of ONE of those skills at any time. When recording my critical hits i compared to pure bow dmg, CAsting RtW, Casting FW, then Casting both RtW and FW. From this i saw that the dmg gain per critical seemed to only apply from RtW. <<< Hope that explanation was clear enough...
This all led me to believe that you only gain the highest amount of added dmg between RtW and FW. Since FW only adds +6dmg, it seemed that RtW dmg is the only one that applied.
Speed Stacking however, i have no idea how to test if that is working or not.
I will test again soon and try and provide clear concise numbers to explain my testing method....
EDIT:: Btw, this thread is in the wrong forum. Probably best in Strategy Discussion or Skill Discussion.
I also tested for a bit and it didnt seem to stack for me either. i tested on the Shatter Gargoyles that are all over the ruins right outside of Ascalon. Lvl 3 and 4 and many of them to test on. From what i observed it seemed i only gained dmg increase of ONE of those skills at any time. When recording my critical hits i compared to pure bow dmg, CAsting RtW, Casting FW, then Casting both RtW and FW. From this i saw that the dmg gain per critical seemed to only apply from RtW. <<< Hope that explanation was clear enough...
This all led me to believe that you only gain the highest amount of added dmg between RtW and FW. Since FW only adds +6dmg, it seemed that RtW dmg is the only one that applied.
Speed Stacking however, i have no idea how to test if that is working or not.
I will test again soon and try and provide clear concise numbers to explain my testing method....
EDIT:: Btw, this thread is in the wrong forum. Probably best in Strategy Discussion or Skill Discussion.
id0l
The proof is in the screenshots. All hits vs. scorpion seemed to be max damage but not critical hits (criticals ~180). I did it a few times to be thorough.
Read the Wind by itself:
Again, for consistencies sake:
Now, Read the Wind and Favorable Winds "stacked":
Again, for consistencies sake:
(you may notice multiple screenshots taken on this one - yes, the darn scorp was evading my arrows)
Read the Wind by itself:
Again, for consistencies sake:
Now, Read the Wind and Favorable Winds "stacked":
Again, for consistencies sake:
(you may notice multiple screenshots taken on this one - yes, the darn scorp was evading my arrows)
id0l
And of course, attributes whilst testing:
Seems to me that stacking RtW and FW doesn't actually do a whole lot in the stacking of damage department. You don't get the +6/arrow at all from FW. Pretty unfortunate. And, I'm not sure why, really. So, it seems the only benefit of using both is the 4x faster arrows (2x from RtW, 2x from FW). Bug or intentional, I do not know; but hopefully this enlightens the RtW + FW crowd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MistressYichi
Seems to me that stacking RtW and FW doesn't actually do a whole lot in the stacking of damage department. You don't get the +6/arrow at all from FW. Pretty unfortunate. And, I'm not sure why, really. So, it seems the only benefit of using both is the 4x faster arrows (2x from RtW, 2x from FW). Bug or intentional, I do not know; but hopefully this enlightens the RtW + FW crowd.
Quote:
go to tombs and run with a ranger spike group. youll see in fact they do stack. Thats about my best advice. Everyone running a good ranger spike build in hoh will use read + favorable
If that is the case, it seems that all the "good ranger spike" groups are pretty wrong. Maybe they ought to rethink their builds to use Kindle Arrows instead, perhaps? 
Questions? Comments? Debate? Flaming? Bring it on.
Questions? Comments? Debate? Flaming? Bring it on.
twicky_kid
if it doesn't stack it should be fixed. its from 2 different sources and makes since it should stack.
id0l
Quote:
Originally Posted by twicky_kid
if it doesn't stack it should be fixed. its from 2 different sources and makes since it should stack.
I agree, and I will probably be contacting Guild Wars supporting tomorrow (today -_-) regarding this issue, and pointing them to this thread.
Kais Unduli
Quote:
Originally Posted by MistressYichi
go to tombs and run with a ranger spike group. youll see in fact they do stack. Thats about my best advice. Everyone running a good ranger spike build in hoh will use read + favorable
Wow, that's basically saying that they stack because you say so. I didn't know it was so easy.
And I've been wondering about this myself. Thanks for the heads up. However, will it work with Kindle Arrows?
And I've been wondering about this myself. Thanks for the heads up. However, will it work with Kindle Arrows?
Indian
Yes They Stack!
Effects are wild as hell..
Effects are wild as hell..
Batou of Nine
^^LMAO!! LOL!!^^
Indian. Read Idol's last few posts and mine before that. What a crack-up. If you are truelly refuting me and id0l, at least offer PROOF! lol 2x!!
Indian. Read Idol's last few posts and mine before that. What a crack-up. If you are truelly refuting me and id0l, at least offer PROOF! lol 2x!!
Indian
Quote:
Originally Posted by Batou of Nine
^^LMAO!! LOL!!^^
Indian. Read Idol's last few posts and mine before that. What a crack-up. If you are truelly refuting me and id0l, at least offer PROOF! lol 2x!! OMG! lol
& these many days i used to think they stack
couldnt see images.. since im blockin images from photbucket..
lol i've been punk'd for over 2 months..
Indian. Read Idol's last few posts and mine before that. What a crack-up. If you are truelly refuting me and id0l, at least offer PROOF! lol 2x!! OMG! lol
& these many days i used to think they stack
couldnt see images.. since im blockin images from photbucket..
lol i've been punk'd for over 2 months..
User Name
Quote:
Originally Posted by MistressYichi
go to tombs and run with a ranger spike group. youll see in fact they do stack. Thats about my best advice. Everyone running a good ranger spike build in hoh will use read + favorable
Conjure Flame + Kindle Arrows + Vamp Bow + Favorable is a better spike than Favorable + Read The Wind.
Mercury Angel
Moved to Arcane Repository.
JYX
So we're absolutely...100%...certain those skills don't stack?
...if so then...does the arrow at least fly faster with RtW and FW together than with just one of them.
...if so then...does the arrow at least fly faster with RtW and FW together than with just one of them.
Eonwe
Read the Wind, Favorable Winds, and Winnowing all stack to my knowledge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by User Name
Quote:
Conjure Flame + Kindle Arrows + Vamp Bow + Favorable is a better spike than Favorable + Read The Wind.
No, it isn't.
Batou of Nine
LOL! another "they stack cause i said they do" argument.
EDIT:: Even if it is "qualified" with a "to my knowledge" statement, it still does not offer anything beyond, yes it works, and no this doesnt work. Reputable forum reputation shouldn't mean a person is assumed as correct... I think the whole point of id0l's thread is to illicite further testing and present proofs from many different people in order to confirm or discard beliefs. Simple Yes and No's will not suffice.
Btw, Thank You Post #21...
Please refrain from these useless comments, i would like to see more ppl actually test and experiement to compare to id0l's findings. Since mine coincide & agree with his, i'd really like to see others test this ....
EDIT:: Even if it is "qualified" with a "to my knowledge" statement, it still does not offer anything beyond, yes it works, and no this doesnt work. Reputable forum reputation shouldn't mean a person is assumed as correct... I think the whole point of id0l's thread is to illicite further testing and present proofs from many different people in order to confirm or discard beliefs. Simple Yes and No's will not suffice.
Btw, Thank You Post #21...Please refrain from these useless comments, i would like to see more ppl actually test and experiement to compare to id0l's findings. Since mine coincide & agree with his, i'd really like to see others test this ....
mr_boo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Batou of Nine
LOL! another "they stack cause i said they do" argument.
Please refrain from these useless comments, i would like to see more ppl actually test and experiement to compare to id0l's findings. Since mine coincide & agree with his, i'd really like to see others test this .... There's a difference here...first Eonwe qualified his statement with "to my knowledge" and secondly, there is a high level of credibility the comes along with his posts.
Given that, I'm not saying that you or id0l are incorrect...give it time and others will eventually test it out and either support or refute your claim.
Please refrain from these useless comments, i would like to see more ppl actually test and experiement to compare to id0l's findings. Since mine coincide & agree with his, i'd really like to see others test this .... There's a difference here...first Eonwe qualified his statement with "to my knowledge" and secondly, there is a high level of credibility the comes along with his posts.
Given that, I'm not saying that you or id0l are incorrect...give it time and others will eventually test it out and either support or refute your claim.
Eonwe
I'm actually testing this right now and getting some very interesting results. As in, casting order is affecting how much damage I am doing. I'll post my results in a bit. Like I said before, it was to my knowledge that they stacked. I was basing that assumption off of what I had been told by Ensign (who is usually 100% correct ;o).
id0l
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury Angel
Quote:
Read the Wind, Favorable Winds, and Winnowing all stack to my knowledge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by User Name
Conjure Flame + Kindle Arrows + Vamp Bow + Favorable is a better spike than Favorable + Read The Wind.
No, it isn't. Eonwe, I assumed they stacked as well, until a certain Quickshot thread (in which they were arguing this topic as well) piqued my interest. They do seem to stack as far as arrow speed is concerned (you end up with 4x faster arrows), but as far as my quick 'n easy test is concerned, the damage doesn't stack. I realize you weren't disagreeing, or agreeing, but perhaps you could do a quick test yourself so I can have a secondary source?
I'm not sure about winnowing, I haven't messed with that yet.
I'm curious as well, as to your opinion on the best spike, and your reasoning? To me, it would seem that User Name's suggestion would be correct, but you seem to disagree. It would be one thing if RtW + FW did stack, but I'm just not convinced anymore after testing it myself.
But I will accept that my testing may have been flawed.
Peace,
id0l
edit: Seems you posted when I was typing up my response.
Anxious to see your results.
Quote:
Originally Posted by User Name
Conjure Flame + Kindle Arrows + Vamp Bow + Favorable is a better spike than Favorable + Read The Wind.
No, it isn't. Eonwe, I assumed they stacked as well, until a certain Quickshot thread (in which they were arguing this topic as well) piqued my interest. They do seem to stack as far as arrow speed is concerned (you end up with 4x faster arrows), but as far as my quick 'n easy test is concerned, the damage doesn't stack. I realize you weren't disagreeing, or agreeing, but perhaps you could do a quick test yourself so I can have a secondary source?
I'm not sure about winnowing, I haven't messed with that yet.
I'm curious as well, as to your opinion on the best spike, and your reasoning? To me, it would seem that User Name's suggestion would be correct, but you seem to disagree. It would be one thing if RtW + FW did stack, but I'm just not convinced anymore after testing it myself.
But I will accept that my testing may have been flawed.Peace,
id0l
edit: Seems you posted when I was typing up my response.
Anxious to see your results.
Mercury Angel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eonwe
I'm actually testing this right now and getting some very interesting results. As in, casting order is affecting how much damage I am doing. I'll post my results in a bit. Like I said before, it was to my knowledge that they stacked. I was basing that assumption off of what I had been told by Ensign (who is usually 100% correct ;o).
I believe the first thread I saw on this subject mentioned casting order determining whether they stack or not as well. I await your results.
id0l
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eonwe
I'm actually testing this right now and getting some very interesting results. As in, casting order is affecting how much damage I am doing. I'll post my results in a bit. Like I said before, it was to my knowledge that they stacked. I was basing that assumption off of what I had been told by Ensign (who is usually 100% correct ;o).
Interesting if this is indeed true. This is because the spirit was cast prior to preparing RtW. Would seem very, very inconvinient to have to do RtW first then cast the spirit. And not too sure if the +6 damage would last after the first RtW prep (i.e., entering second RtW prep while original spirit is still alive)? Perhaps you can test this too.
Regardless, in either case, I think they are not "stacking" correctly (it honestly shouldn't matter about the cast order), so after we get more evidence/testing collected and presented (screenshots really help, they always request them), I'll contact ArenaNet about it and forward them here.
Regardless, in either case, I think they are not "stacking" correctly (it honestly shouldn't matter about the cast order), so after we get more evidence/testing collected and presented (screenshots really help, they always request them), I'll contact ArenaNet about it and forward them here.
Eonwe
Quote:
Originally Posted by id0l
If you are to cast RtW first, followed up by Favorable, you will get both damage bonuses from each. However, if you reverse the order, and cast favorable first followed by RtW, the only dmg bonus you recieve comes from RtW, and tht extra 6 dmg from favorable is just umm... not there so to say.
Quote:
Yeah, I tested it firsthand to make sure and regardless or not if it's put on a stack of RtW already, it gets replaced by the 2nd one, so only the 1st RtW gets the bonus.|
And not too sure if the +6 damage would last after the first RtW prep (i.e., entering second RtW prep while original spirit is still alive)? Perhaps you can test this too.
If you cast RtW first, then drop favorable you will be getting the bonus from both (as stated before). However, when your initial RtW goes down, and you recast it while favorable is still up, you only get the bonus dmg from RtW. Also, on a side note, I also tested winnowing with all of this. The extra 4 damage you get from winnowing tacked onto everything regardless of the order that I cast it in. So the only problem seems to lie with RtW and Favorable Winds. Edit: Also, as to whether or not the speed bonuses from RtW and Favorable winds stack I cannot say.
Batou of Nine
Wow Gj with the testing and info... im glad further testing has revealed more.
Casting order seems to be such a unnessecary aspect, but for some reason is inherent in the game mechanics. I should retest to see the results found by Eonew. If i get the chance ill get Screenies of test info that matches Eonew's results. I am also curious that if i cast RtW first then FW, then recaste RtW to restart the 24 second duration, will that negate the dmg stacking? or will this remain as the first cast in the stacking and still apply? Physically would the affects move RtW to the second condition or stay as the first? lol, does that make sense? anywhoo, ill test tonight! nice work so far yall... carnivore
i believe i've read the same topic id0l is speaking of. thats why i've said a couple of times that FW and RTW do not stack, just because thats what i remember reading. Also, i believe the properties of winnowing was also discussed in how it only affects arrows not under Kindle
Eonwe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Batou of Nine
I am also curious that if i cast RtW first then FW, then recaste RtW to restart the 24 second duration, will that negate the dmg stacking? or will this remain as the first cast in the stacking and still apply? Physically would the affects move RtW to the second condition or stay as the first? lol, does that make sense?
From what I saw you would only be getting the extra damage from RtW in that case (after you recast RtW when FW is still up).
mr_boo
So let me get this straight...if you cast RtW -> Favorable Winds you would only get the damage stack on the 1st RtW regardless or not if you recast RtW before the 1st one expires? Sorry, if I'm not understanding this or I'm just being confusing....but I think this is what Batou was trying to say and will be testing out as well.
JYX
This has already been tested somewhat. Results in the thread here.
id0l
I have done my part by emailing ArenaNet support (bugs/skills and special abilities). I left a detailed message and asked them to visit this thread for screenshots and documentation. Hopefully we shall see a response shorty.
Peace, id0l Eonwe
Quote:
This has already been tested somewhat. Results in the thread here.
Got the same results shown below. |
Ok so I did some testing last night after seeing a post on guru (lol), and got some wtf results. I did my testing on a rockshot devourer (Lvl 20) with the following set up. 0 Marksmanship Normal Max Damage Bow, un-customized I determined the normal arrow damage to be 3. Read the Wind adds 3 damage at 0 marks Favorable adds 6 damage regardless of attribute level Winnowing adds 4 damage regardless of attribute level The Results: Order of casting - RtW -> Winnowing [10 dmg] Here we are getting both bonuses from rtw and winnowing, an extra 7 damage. Winnowing -> RtW [10 dmg] Once again we are getting both bonuses from rtw and winnowing. RtW -> Favorable [12 dmg] Here we are getting both bonuses from rtw and favorable, an extra 9 damage. Favorable -> RtW [6 dmg] This is where everything sort of fouls up. The bonus that we should be getting from favorable winds based on the previous set up is not there. The only bonus damage we get is the 3 extra damage from RtW. RtW -> Favorable -> Winnowing [16 dmg] Here we have all of the bonuses stacking, for a total of +13 extra damage. Once again, note that the RtW was cast before the favorable. Favorable -> RtW -> Winnowing [10 dmg] Here we are getting only the bonuses from RtW and Winnowing. The bonus damage from favroable is not there. Favorable -> Winnowing -> RtW [10 dmg] Once again, favorable was cast before RtW, and the bonus that we should be getting is not there. However, we are still getting the bonuses from both Winnowing and RtW, an extra 7 dmg. Winnowing -> RtW - Favorable [16 dmg] Here we are getting all of the bonuses again. Note that RtW was cast before favorable, and that we are getting +13 dmg. Winnowing -> Favorable -> RtW [10 dmg] Here the RtW is once again cast after the favorable, and the damage bonuses we get only come from winnowing and Rtw, for +7 dmg. Winnowing -> Favorable [13 dmg] Favorable -> Winnowing [13 dmg] Just used this part as sort of a control. The damage we get from both spirits is not affected by the order in which they are cast. Only when RtW is introduced do the numbers change. Ok so, certainly some interesting results. What it comes down to is this. If you cast RtW before favorable winds, you'll get the damage bonus from both. However, if favorable is cast first, only the damage bonus from RtW is seen. Winnowing stacks no matter what with either, and the casting order does not affect the damage. Also, on a side note. If you cast RtW first, then drop favorable you will be getting the bonus from both(as stated before). If your prep RtW goes down, and you recast it while favorable is still up, you only get the bonus dmg from RtW. Bugeater
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_boo
So let me get this straight...if you cast RtW -> Favorable Winds you would only get the damage stack on the 1st RtW regardless or not if you recast RtW before the 1st one expires? Sorry, if I'm not understanding this or I'm just being confusing....but I think this is what Batou was trying to say and will be testing out as well.
Any time you re-cast something that is already present (be it a hex, an enchant, and it now seems also a prep), it gets put back on the top of the stack as if it was just cast fresh.
This is a little mis-leading as the icons stay in the original order on your screen. But if you were to do a disenchantment or hex removal, you can actually remove one of the icons that's not the last one on your screen but was the last one cast. This also follows with Eonwe's finding that if you re-cast RtW it get's put on the top of the stack and the bug shows up. As a side note, this also brings up other odd questions about effect stacking. I wonder if stance or shout order ever affects things. I'll have to keep an eye out.
mr_boo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugeater
Any time you re-cast something that is already present (be it a hex, an enchant, and it now seems also a prep), it gets put back on the top of the stack as if it was just cast fresh.
This is a little mis-leading as the icons stay in the original order on your screen. But if you were to do a disenchantment or hex removal, you can actually remove one of the icons that's not the last one on your screen but was the last one cast. This also follows with Eonwe's finding that if you re-cast RtW it get's put on the top of the stack and the bug shows up. As a side note, this also brings up other odd questions about effect stacking. I wonder if stance or shout order ever affects things. I'll have to keep an eye out. Yeah, I tested it firsthand to make sure and regardless or not if it's put on a stack of RtW already, it gets replaced by the 2nd one, so only the 1st RtW gets the bonus.
Batou of Nine
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr boo
This is a little mis-leading as the icons stay in the original order on your screen. But if you were to do a disenchantment or hex removal, you can actually remove one of the icons that's not the last one on your screen but was the last one cast. This also follows with Eonwe's finding that if you re-cast RtW it get's put on the top of the stack and the bug shows up. As a side note, this also brings up other odd questions about effect stacking. I wonder if stance or shout order ever affects things. I'll have to keep an eye out. |
LvL 20 Ranger
Marksmanship:: 12
Wilderness Survival:: 12
Expertise:: 9
Weapon:: 15-28 piercing dmg <Halfmoon (+14%dmg^50%hp)>
Added Dmg statistics from skills::
RtW:: +9 dmg
FW:: +6 dmg
Kindle Arrows:: +20 fire dmg
Test Subject::
Lvl 3 FLASH GARGOYLES
Dmg Tests (the order shown is the order they were used)::
Normal Bow Dmg:: 122
Bow dmg + RtW:: 131 (122+9) <-- Correct/Working
Bow dmg + RtW + FW:: 137 (122+9+6) <-- Correct/Working
Bow dmg + FW + RtW:: 131 (122+9+0?) <--Bug?
Bow dmg + RtW + Fw + RtW (casted while first RtW was still active):: 131 <--Bug?
The rest is just for fun Dmg Testing using Kindle Arrows::
Bow dmg + Kindle:: 176 (Subjects took 54 fire dmg= 122+54)
Bow dmg + Kindle + FW:: 182 (122+54+6)
Bow dmg + FW + Kindle:: 182 (122+6+54)
FW + Kindle + Dual Shot:: 252 (99+99+54)
As you can see my regular dmg testing results of RtW and FW directly match what has been established, that casting order matters. Which also matches Eonwe's findings. The second set however seemed to not matter. Using Kindle Arrows instead of RtW, with FW was not affected by the order in which i used the skills.
This leads me to believe that casting order of RtW and FW are actually a game bug and not intentionally done that way. Since id0l has reported this, i hope that they can address this or at least tell us why it is that way. For a spiking build i am now trying out Kindle and FW which seems to work well...
I forgot to take screenshots, but i hope all those specific numbers were clear enough yall! enjoy!
dry
That's pretty enlightening. One thing that suprises me is the damage output though. 100+ base damage on a bow ranger is pretty kickass :/
Batou of Nine
Quote:
Originally Posted by dry
That's pretty enlightening. One thing that suprises me is the damage output though. 100+ base damage on a bow ranger is pretty kickass :/
BUT...Keep in mind, i was testing this on LvL 3 monsters... So...ya.
Glad you found the thread useful though! =D
Glad you found the thread useful though! =D
mp3monster
This thread is helpful. I'd like to see the results with Ignite Arrows if anybody wants to put in the time. Unfortunately I have a disease known as "Lazyness Maximus".
EDIT: I'm also curious if the speed stacks with RtW + Favorable in all cases; IE RtW --> Favorable or Favorable --> RTW/
EDIT: I'm also curious if the speed stacks with RtW + Favorable in all cases; IE RtW --> Favorable or Favorable --> RTW/
leeky baby
the reason why ranger spike teams use Fw and RTW os because if they have one of them up they still got x2 speed and +6 dmg.This is because the spirt can be kileld easy as its proberly on level 11 and the read the wind can be drained so they have more of a chance that they have one of them up if they got both,they also use winnowing for extra +4 dmg i dotn no if this stacks
mp3monster
Well I know the winnowing stacks no matter what, this was proven in above posts. As for RtW being drained; how? You cant drain rtw and every spike team I run we always refresh rtw so its constantly up. So whats the benefit of having both rtw and favorable winds?