The fundamental problem with balancing

Bear with me - This isn't another Nov 10th rant!

As an PvEing Ele who'se reached the South Shivverpeaks for the first time, I feel like the recent AOE changes have hit me hard. Meteor Storm takes a long time to cast. It's oft interrupted. If you do get it off, it was effective in locking down massed characters. Now monsters run out the way a costly and rare (in successfulness) spell has been rendered next to useless. This and other changes are being made for the sake of balance; to remove overly powerful techniques and level the playing field.

However, I suggest that this is counter-productive to gameplay. I propose that moderate, considered imbalances are what makes for a successful game, at least in PvE.

In a perfectly balanced game, for every attack there's a counter attack. For every spell there's a counter spell. Every time you try to do something, they'll stop you, and vice versa. You inflict damage, they heal. You enchant yourself, they hex you. You AOE a group, they move out the way, and when you blast nearby foes, they retreat to get fixed. Stalemate.

It's like two opposing armies. If they're equally well trained, and equally well equipped, in equal numbers on an open field, they'll take equal casualties. So when you realise now that Anet keep levelling the playing field in all areas except the opposition have a much bigger army, you realise that you're at an utter disadvantage!

For me, the key point to GW was the variety of skills and choosing a selection that was more effective. Knowing that ice elementals are weak to fire, you take fire spells and play that strength. If you're in an area where melee fighters mass on your warriors, you take Meteor Storm to flatten them. Some techniques that work well in some areas don't work in others, and the joy is thinking how to jiggle your build to accomodate the changes.

If Anet keep elliminating advantages and strengthening the enemy, they'll destroy all actual gameplay. With perfectly balanced opponents you know every spell and hex and enchantment you cast will be blocked or removed and countered, and there becomes no point in trying. Computer games tend to pit you as the hero alone against overwhelming odds. It's only the stupidity and incompetance of the enemy, and the unique advantages of the player's character, that enable players to win. How else can one space ship destroy an invading alien species, one maverick soldier slaughter entire armies, one Barbarian defate entire planetworths of orcs and goblins? If we're going to be outnumbered 3:1, especially when the henchmen are going to be given a MUCH weaker array of feats than opponents (why have no henchies got interrupts?! Why'd's the Necro neither Hex nor Summon?!) we need there to be weaknesses of the enemy that we can find and exploit.

/signed ?

Stop nerfing our ability to win, plzkthnx.

Blackout the monk.

Hex Breaker or any Hex Removal (I believe N's, Me's, and Mo's all have hex-removal skills.)

Snare, knockdown, and uh.. snare?

Not if you're prepared and coordinated.

Tactics, Strategy, and Coordination will win the day. If the AI is good at manuvering your attemps to kill them, approach them differently.

Fin.

The thing is, almost EVERYTHING in PvE is designed to prepare you for GvG and/or PvP.

When fighting a player, if he/she has 1/2 a brain they will move out of an AOE attack. Also, fire nukers are WAYYYY too cmmon, so this is another way they can encourage use of other elements and facilitate more strategic gameplay. For example, a water/fire elementalist snare-nuker instead of a 16 fire brute-force nuker.

We've heard this a lot, obviously. After playing around with the changes extensively I get the feeling that this is a common reaction because most Elementalist players have never learned how to do anything beyond dropping AoE 'storms' onto a huge mass of monsters standing around a tank.


You've had very different experiences with the skill than I have then. From what I can tell monsters don't flee a Meteor Shower *at all*, since the current version of the AI doesn't run until they've taken multiple hits. Even if they ran after the first hit, as they probably should, the skill would still be great, as it'd deal 100+ damage in an AoE, plus a knockdown that holds a bunch of enemies in place, plus a second hit and knockdown if they're impeded from running at all. I couldn't really test the AI against a Meteor Shower, though, as whatever mobs got caught in the Shower were usually dead shortly after the second hit. This was desert and shivverpeaks, though, they'd probably be a bit more durable in the Fire Islands / WaW.


Is that why you think this change was made? That this was a deliberate attempt to 'nerf' certain characters?

Guild Wars is advertised as a strategy game, where player skill and experience is supposed to be the deciding factor. This ideal has been hard to implement in PvE because the primitive monster AI made PvE take about as much strategy as shooting fish in a barrel. This AI tweak certainly hasn't solved that - and it has its issues of its own - but it's a step towards making monsters behave intelligently.

What's so maddening is how AI expectations vary from genre to genre. If you come from a FPS or RTS background, you're used to good, adaptive AI being a *selling point* of a game. Enemies that will take cover and use terrain to their advantage? That's awesome. But in the 'RPG' genre good AI is taboo. Enemies are expected to beeline for the player, attack the non-threatening, unkillable 'tank', and sit there hacking away in mindless futility while the rest of the players execute them in turn. Even ancient, retarded dragons must stay true to the tired script of vegetatively attacking the paladin in front of them.

Why the difference? The goal. In a FPS or RTS, the goal is to overcome various obstacles and the gameplay is in the challenge of doing so. But in an RPG, the goal isn't completing objectives, but in harvesting loot from the killing fields. When making a RPG you aren't designing a strategy game, as much as a glorified slot machine with meteors instead of levers and orges instead of cherries.

Your players *are not* looking for a challenge. They're looking to zone out and watch the loot drops in hopes of hitting a jackpot.

This AI change is, perhaps, a sign of Guild Wars attempting to break that mold - as someone who was attracted to the game because it was supposed to be different, I find this encouraging.


The exact opposite - this AI change is adding actual gameplay to Guild Wars PvE, and people do not want it.


I'll just take this as a sign that you've never been involved in any competition in your life as you clearly have no idea how it works.


Only if you're functionally retarded.

In a PvE game it's not the monsters that counter you, it's you who counters the monsters. You know exactly what's coming. The mobs always use the same skills, and are almost always in the same place. You control the timing and potentially even the position of the engagement. The strategies they're going to use are known. In a balanced game, as you mentioned above, there's a counter for everything, and since you can bring whatever tools you want to destroy the opponent's strategy you have no excuse for losing outside of superior numbers. Superior numbers that, I might add, can usually be divided up and defeated easily with proper tactics.


How has this changed? The only difference is that now skills that were only effective because of AI exploits are now poor. That's it. It's still the same game, and if you're someone who enjoyed the strategic aspects, it's actually a *better* game.


You're joking. The strategy that everyone used was one 'gear tank' to hold the aggro, two monks to support him, and two fire nukers to bombard the masses of enemies around the tank. This was done regardless of resistances, classes, skills, or really just about anything. Meteor Shower wasn't a 'tactical choice to counter a strategy', it was a catch all, one stop, no think solution to absolutely every problem in the game, to the point of utter brainlessness. All this talk about jiggling your build is hand waving that has no basis in reality, because people were *not* changing their builds.

This discussion would be much more straightforward if people would stop lying to themselves and everyone else. This has nothing to do with strategy or tactics. The complaints are coming because people wanted to drop Meteor Showers on pack after pack of retarded cattle in the killing fields and pick up their loot, without having to think in the slightest. That the mobs don't march mindlessly to their deaths anymore is a colossal blow to their slot-machine gameplay, and they're complaining loudly because of it.

So let's cut the crap and get to the heart of the issue - do you want Guild Wars to be a strategy game, or do you want it to be a slot machine game?


You mean they'll add enough actual gameplay that the casino dwellers won't have any idea what to do.


I don't know why they don't get interrupts, but they don't have hexes, enchantments, or summons, in general, because they want henchmen to fit seemlessly into teams. Necromancers do not want to be getting into corpse fights with Claude. They made a few exceptions, like Healing Breeze, but in general that's the case - no henchman will put a character of the same class at a disadvantage.


You make this sound like people are having problems overcoming the obstacles in PvE already, when that's the furthest thing from the truth. People aren't trying to figure out how to beat an enemy, because that's usually trivial. They're trying to figure out how to beat a given enemy over and over and over again, as quickly as possible, and with as few players as they can get away with. Unfortunately reality is so far removed from your argument that it's downright laughable. If PvE in this game actually was a challenge, where you had to carefully select your team, your skills, your strategy, and your tactics to be able to complete a mission, I think it would be a lot more fun and rewarding. Too bad that's not the case.

Peace,
-CxE

The really fundamental problem with balancing is that A.Net listens to those whining the loudest. This patch did not really make it harder to play an elementalist. You can still play the old way... but... the update just made it annoying and more time consuming.
I like the fact that the mobs flee the AOE Spells. But i don't like the sideeffect of this prolonging a fight you will surely win anyways. The UW for example was allready a somewhat tedious experience before said patch but now it is far too time consuming to be done by a team that doesn't consist of folks that are willing to stay together for more than 6 hours.

The whole PVE Part just got slower... and yes, in my opinion it also became annoying. Just casting something and seeing them scatter over and over and over again... awwwwwww... makes me want to kill something. Nothing in range though, everything is running.

Very well said. I love how teamwork has a much greater significance now than it did before the update. Those "unwanted" classes might actually get a look in now.

/unsigned >.<

I want this to be a strategy game, not a "slot machine"

/signed

I don't post often (read: at all) but the only peeps complaining in-game are rich solo farmers. Some guy last night was trying to base a case against the update on the price of ectos. When 70% of players have less than 10k, how does the price of ectos really affect them?



This update did a good job, the AI is a little smarter which means the game is a little harder which means I have more fun.

edit:and wtf is a 'town dweller'?

Alright, an rpg this not. Virtually nobody in any game called that online does it. RP stands for "roleplaying". It doesn't happen. But in great books like Lord of the Rings and The Shannara series to name two (I know I have missed naming many others, but get over it) the good guys (or people's characters) face evil and it's forces (bosses and the regular run of the mill minions) and in said books when facing the enemy the bad guys often didn't use much in the way of tactics. Evil is anarchy and a lack of organization. So, they depend on numbers and overwhelming the good guys.

Again, how the hero's in books usually end up winning and defeating the evil plaguing the land. Again simplifying things.

Do you have any idea how many people can't execute that strategy sucessfully? I have even taken the time to explain in more detail what people needed to do and they still screwed it up. Thus the reason people who knew what they were doing, started using a smaller group of people they knew had the intelligence to do it.

It is a strategy game and the strategy that is most popular has changed, my guildies and I have used others. But the AI isn't more intelligent, it's simply more erratic. The real strategy part of the game comes from the PvP side, not the story side, or PvE. They are both completely different aspects and appeal to different people. So, now in order to make Flame Elementalists more viable in PvP how will they nerf/change other classes to do it. Most changes seemed geared to the PvE side and ANET continuing a war against farmers.

There are some noticble problems in completing some of the quests. Most notably the Defend quests given by Glint. The monster fought their take tremendous amounts of damage to destroy. The class that does the most damage are Ele's and in particular Fire Ele's. Without their massage damage spells, I have yet to complete one, with the exception of Defend Droknar's Forge. So, inclosing I'll simply point out that I also never...in a backhanded way insulted you as you did to the person you were responding to. Manners do still count.

/signed

i don't like this update because it just concerns PVE players. i don't see why PVE should be made harder since we have PVP for a challenge. making mobs flee aoe just makes other classes stronger, it doesn't balance. nothing can be completly balanced in PVE because human players are creative and always come up with new ways to make fights easier.

and personally i still do 2 man UW runs and 5 man SF runs just as fast as before so this proves there is no balance in PVE.

basically what Anet has done is make the mesmers and necros get partied easyer. i think they should of left the game as it was. at this point my elementalist is just useful for PVP.

and concerning PVE teamwork, it's bullshit. i mean if Anet wants us to farm in full parties, they just need to up the drops. if they'd give larger drops for larger parties it would encourage team play in farming. i mean if same item and gold drops same for 1 person as for 8 ppl, there is no point to make large party since everything splits up.

Does the game itself state that it's practice for PVP? Does the story eveolve so that PVP is the end of the story?
From what I've read they worked real hard to keep Pvp and Pve seperate, a complete option. A way to reach both communities. An option to do Either, or both.

Other note, Alot of higher level people keep talking about how to overcome the change. That is a diversion, and not an argument. Most of the topics deal with the validity of the patch as it aplies to normal players.
The game does advertise diversity, mix and match as you see fit, find the killer combinations.
Their change of AI narrows that diversity, and strays away from one of the games major selling points.


Edit.

Think of it as a PVP/PVE Shooter, like Halo.
If every damned enemy in the story were as good as "Leet" PVP, how well could you complete the missions?
You'd be dead before you even got the first weapon in HAlo 1, about half the time.
EVen Halo 2, on legendary, give the normal FPS player a 1vs1 with any AI, he could take it down with a little practice.
1vs the army, well, only the excellent have even a slim chance.

Ensign doesn't insult, he smites people with the truth.
Someone tell me why Anet should not do this.

Funny, I didn't think that making snares have a use made the game less diverse. Most groups always had 1 AoE nuker. Now there are more choices:

1) Use AoE for deterrance
2) Use AoE + snare for damage, plus critical hits against fleeing enemies (warriors and rangers deal the crits, of course)
3) No AoE's period

I myself never liked packing both Meteor Shower and Firestorm. The enemies would be almost dead by the time the spells went off, plus the recharge times are disgusting. I preferred to carry more 1-shot spells like fireball, meteor, immolate, and incendiary bonds. You'd be surprised how a fire ele can still manage. Plus enemies don't run at the sight of a meteor or fireball after Nov. 11 patch, so I've got nothing to worry about.

The fundamental problem with balancing is that SHIT HAPPENS.

You know, it has to be balanced for it to work. And when things change, that doesn't happen.

...sorry, I'll read the post next time.

They should make AoE spells damage allies. And then people would have a real reason to whine.

i feel like adding that Strategy should be left for PVP. true strategy is human players VS human players.
any kind of attempt to make monsters harder is dumb. it only makes fights longer and boresome.
i do both PVP and PVE and i can safely say that these 2 things are completly different.
PVE does not prepare u for pvp. actually most pve builds are bad in pvp.

and well i don't understand Anet's reasoning... i mean they already had the experience of Diablo I and II. everytime they made monsters harder and nerfed drops it just made the players think a different way around it.
i remember at some point in d2 i would just leave the bot on and never bother to actually pve because it was POINTLESS to play legit. even leveling had become so dull and long that i had to use a bot to lvl up.

what i like about guild wars is that there are no Public bots or cheats. every1 is basically on the same level and pve is actually enjoyable. i fear that with nerfing farming, it will encourage cheats.
and everything is cheatable, is just that right now ppl are not interested in making/releasing any since PVE and farming is still rewarding and relatelely easy when played legit.
if they keep nerfing stuff, 100% farming bots will be released and that would be the end of the game economy and pve alltogether. we already have trade bots and i'm sure farming bots exist in private ebay circles.

Mr. Ensign you sir have HIT THE NAIL IN THE HEAD. /bow

Do you only read certain parts? Don't they challenge you to find killer combinations? I think that's a major selling point. It doesn't advertise, find killer combinations, and we'll delete them, just for you.


From GW site:
"New heroes can be deleted and created at any time, allowing you to create specialized characters or to have fun experimenting with profession combinations, skills, and attributes until you create the hero that suits you best."


Well, some people fire AOE suited them best, then they changed, for those people, thier whole take on their own skills.

It does not say:

New heroes can be deleted and created at any time, allowing you to create specialized characters or to have fun experimenting with profession combinations, skills, and attributes until you create the hero that suits you best, and then when you have that character created just the perfect way you want him, we'll change the AI so that your style of play becomes defunct, and has to be rebuilt from the ground up.


IF you want to argue further, go read all of the GW sight again first.

Furthermore:

The game wasn't broke before. The problem was farming, they did not do the patch for any group of players, and I'm sick of people arguing that the AI tweak was a PVP power balance, or what people call a nerf, meant to equalize players.

They tried to sneak in a patch that almost made a little sense on the surface, and it went so drasticly bad that they HAD to atleast make it copable for some people in a hurry.

I say put it back, EBAY users have already made a ton, if not, you're still not going to stop them.

It wasn't broken before, but it was sure as hell pretty boring to play PvE with one hand and no intelligence.

It's not a fundamental problem with balancing...it's a fundamental problem with the common PvE player. All they want is the most simplistic way to make themselves feel "uber". This game was marketed, and designed as a game that required tactics and skill to complete. As far as I'm concerned ArenaNET failed to deliver....it takes little more than your pre-searing skills and the ability to smash buttons to complete the PvE campaign. It's painfully apparent that this is the case when you spend a hours upon hours at Thunderhead attempting to get a group together competent enough to complete what is in reality a very very simple task. However, GW's failure to force you to play your profession correctly coupled with the fact that most people are perfectly content downloading builds off the internet and never fully understanding why they work, produces what we call a "noob trap". Now instead of thanking ArenaNet for striving to make the game more difficult(and eliminating "noob traps") the PvE masses gather at forums to bitch and moan about how the build they downloaded from the internet no longer works....it's really quite pathetic. ArenaNet is making an attempt to force you to play the game with skill and thought....I guess the majority of gamers aren't ready for that yet.

I think the 3 desert missions were designed as an intro to PVP in Tombs. They are kind of similar. And then there's that one mission near the Bloodstone Fen where you have to attune the 3 shrines while trying to stop the white mantle.

Ye that is quite funny, cause Thirsty River almost uses flavor team builds... Necro area, earthquake area...

If the game was boring to you, before the patch, that is your fault.
(Everything below in " " is GWguru, or something like that from above.)
"All they want is the most simplistic way to make themselves feel "uber""
I would consider myself an average PvE'er. I just want to play the game without having it totally change under my feet with a tiny patch. That is what expansions are for. I don't farm, hell, i'm only level 13 and I get a huge kick out of dying. I got myself ran to ToA, some stranger oddly volunteered to pay for my broke ass Ele/Mes from Lions arch. I would rather go out there and get my but whooped than kill scorpions easily around ascalon all day. Anyways, I don't farm, I don't want to feel uber, I'm carrying a wand that does 4-6 damage for pete's sake(only cause i have an offhand that does better +'s than any 2handerI've found) I don't buy much from other people, I'm earning my own way about 98% as far as XP and items go, me an henchies in bigger badder places.


"GW's failure to force you to play your profession correctly"

The way the designed the game, there is no incorrect way to play.
"New heroes can be deleted and created at any time, allowing you to create specialized characters or to have fun experimenting with profession combinations, skills, and attributes until you create the hero that suits you best."
Sure maybe someone can make a better build, or play with one that's not so good, but it's either lack of IQ, or personal choice. There is no bonus or special "leet" prize for those that get the best combos/builds.

"ArenaNet is making an attempt to force you to play the game with skill and thought...."
Is that what their patch announcement states?

The patches intent was to hamper farmers, period. It is apparent the elementalists were not overpowered, otherwise complaints of their power would have already reached the nerf point long ago.

Suppose you're right(which you're not):
"ArenaNet is making an attempt to force you to play the game with skill and thought....I guess the majority of gamers aren't ready for that yet.[/"

No, most people aren't ready to buy a game because it advertises choices, then have the game maker go nazi and say, you have to play it this certain way.

What kind of drugs are you on? That was so obviously not the intent of GW. If they wanted simply to add difficulty, they could have simply raised the HP level of everything, or armor, or resistances.

There are so many people that back this patch 100%, love it, and yet, they're on the forums, not playing the game they think is great. There was virtually no complaint of how the AI was before. I think they all are playing devils advocate just to get people's goat, for some inner need to prove themselves.

I'm sick of people who are acting as if they were asking for this patch for months.

yes....because adding level 900 monsters that continue to stand in 14 Fire Storms in a row is adding difficulty. That's not difficulty that's grind...mobs SHOULD move out of AoE damage. It's the most basic natural instinct to move AWAY from something causing pain...even animals have this instinct. It was completely rediculous that entire mobs would stand in a Fire Storm and get obliterated while you feverishly click Fire Storm repeatadly waiting for it to recharge...that's not skill it's monotony.

This patch has gotten me to play PvE for the first time in months and ya know...it's actually somewhat entertaining. Unlike the grind to unlock skills/runes it used to be.

Sure, but until we get a better TLA for the genre it'll continue to be a RPG.


The vast, vast majority. Furthermore, that majority won't notice a change in AI at all, because real AI abuse requires coordination. Once you get a little bit of coordination PvE is laughably easy.


Without digging too deeply into what 'intelligent' AI means when it's something as simple as what we have in this game, I think that arguing that monsters are now 'more stupid' because they don't gather up in little monster orgies inside of Firestorm is going to get you laughed at.


Honestly, I think that the AI change has opened the doors for making a lot of elementalist skills more reasonably powered. Skills like Firestorm or Searing Heat or Eruption are such complete and utter pieces of shit that they're downright laughable, but at the same time they were such good skills for exploiting monster AI that they *couldn't* be brought to an appropriate power level for fear of unbalancing PvE too much. Now that monsters are starting to react in a reasonable manner to AoE (emphesis on starting), those skills can now be evaluated on their merits without being held back by the AoE exploit loophole.


As I've mentioned, most PvE games are really just glorified slot machines, and the 'powergamers' are those looking for exploits to get them ahead of everyone else in the virtual casino. Believe me that the 'power' PvE community is always looking for the latest bugs and exploits that will let them farm faster. The difference, it seems, is that while bug exploiting is considered an unfortunate part of competitive play, in PvE games it's considered a birthright and people will bitch endlessly about *bug fixes* because it cuts into their farming.

I caught, exploited, reported, and ultimately helped get the Arid Sea chests fixed. That happened early on before most players even heard about the area. Can you imagine what would happen if they made that change now? This forum would be filled with hundred page posts by people bitching about the change to 'their farming spot', just as we've seen when the original change to chests was made, or when Protective Bond was brought back in line, or whenever any imbalance or bug is fixed that affects people's ability to mindlessly farm for gold. PvP balance changes are embraced - PvE balance changes are fought with petitions.


This has never been true, and the only reason people ever got that impression was because monsters would stand in Firestorm. That AI exploit has not only polarized the Elementalist class, but the way people think about the game in general. Particularly later in the PvE game against high level monsters, Fire Elementalists are patently *bad* damage dealers.


There's a difference between being curt or blut, and being insulting. It's a sad bit of social commentary that people fail to differentiate between the two.


The funny part is that fire isn't even bad now. Meteor Shower is still outstanding. Fire elementalists are now going to avoid Firestorm and Searing Heat, two skills that are laughably underpowered if you can't convince someone to stand in them. Fireball is still the hands-down most powerful skill in the line, and maybe someone will actually notice that now.


They made a patch that makes a *lot* of sense even after careful examination, and one that hopefully is a sign of things to come. Unfortuantely any change to the 'fragile balance' that is PvE sets off a bitch-fest, pretty much universally. And by balance, I mean 'people really don't give half a shit whether things are balanced or reasonable or even make sense as long as they have a good farming spot'.

I mean can people even believe themselves? I'm reading these petitions and people are threatening to quit the game forever because monsters don't stand in Firestorm. Is that what gaming is about to you?


Try playing a Water Elementalist. It's the most fun I've had in PvE since the beta events.

Peace,
-CxE

Interesting point there. PvP games are balanced, but do not result in stalemates. This is because to win, requires a mix of skill (like a shooter or darts, the most skilled person generally wins), intelligence and knowledge of the game (like chess) and awareness of the likely strategies used by opponents (much like paper-scissors rock and MTG). Generally, 8 vs 8 battles do not result in stalemate-like situations (it happens sometimes, but not as often as in, say, a game of socker). The system in the game (with all the counters) keeps pvp play evolving (the thing called the metagame) and if an almost perfect build that cannot be countered is found, they nerf some skills (like they did with spirits) to restore balance and diversity. Some players complain when that happens, prbably because their strategies need to be modified, but most pvp players are happy with that.

I don't understand why people do not appreciate Anet for having the same concern for balance when it comes to PvE. A game in which a few professions with specific spells and skills are really good for half of the game (the pve part), such as AOE-fire-nukers, invincy-monks etc. is imbalanced. If there are only a few 'optimal builds', people will be playing these all the time, making the game boring. Of course, some people care more about hoarding money or items or getting fissure armour than overall game balance. Which is their right, as players. Anet should not.

You couldn't have barked up a better tree. This is to ALL who think it's stupid for monsters to stand in fire.

The words feral, wild, inhuman, brutal, insane, cold-blooded, and bestial all apply to some or all adversaries for any player in the RPG part of the game.
Most of those definitions are pretty blunt, and some even state, with no thought to consequences and lacking intelligence or reason.

Any starving wild animalwill put itself in grave danger at a chance to get a mouthful of flesh.
A monster helbent on killing you just might be willing to stand in your firestorm if it means tasting squishy flesh.

Most wild animals(on the planet earth, present day), even those that have rabies will not attack every human it sees while not touching other animals around it. The way animals react on earth is a moot point, this game is not simulating rats, or even bears and tigers. Animals, real ones, kill to eat, and only get agressive to non meals when they feel threatened. If something non meal runs away, the animals usually let it.

It's a damn fantasy world with godamn made up magic and monsters. You want realism, there would be a shit tone less fighting, go elsewhere. If you think this whole game is based on realism, take off your tinfoil "platemail" leave your parents basement, and get a job. Leave the knives daggers and swords at home too.

Realism, is not a bunch of creatures that cast spells at you or want to cut your tongue out and use it as jewelry.

Question, any normal human(this is role reversal here), that is being attacked, that would suddenly have fire fall on his head, well, personally, If I knew what I was fighting wanted to kill me, my friends, family, wife, and kids, well, yes, I'd stand in that fire in hopes I could get that one valued throat slash in.
Cause why? If the bastard can rain fire on me, I'm probably doomed anyways.


Still got questions?


Now about the actual AI.

Alot of one hit attacks that can do 100+ will not scare monsters off, but my current firestorm that does average about 14damage a tick will make him run away to find a target.

Before the patch my firestorm would not even take an 10th of some monsters I've fought in the full 10 seconds. Now they get out of the bastard, cause it scares them more than anything, sure doesn't hurt them with any effect now now.

Or say, I died, hey, it happens, the 2fighter henchies are whailing on a monster, doing WAY more damage than my 14 a second for 3-4 seconds at most.
He's got no problem standing there.

If he's going to run from my few seconds worth of 14 damage, he should run from any other strike doing the same amount of damage or more.

Sure, bring on the arguments about how the AI is so much smarter now, so much more "realistic".

*edit, IT's the idea as a whole as I'm talking about, don't be taking things out of context, that's for cheesy politicians.

I see now why I only post in the OT sections. LOL.

I can see both sides of the balance issue though, but I am confused as to when the issue became so devisive.

It got that way when people decided to back up the patch they love, on the forums, instead of playing the game when it's supposedly more fun than ever for them.
It got that why when people say that it's whining, or that you're just too stupid to think around it.

The point of the update was to hinder those that farm(*edit, farm, probably for the ebay farmers, not the farmers trying to trade ingame, though that is speculation), not to make it more challenging, or to nerf skills. If their intention was to nerf fire AOE's, they would have edited the skills down.

every point you think you are making is fundamentally flawed in that your opinion is biased based on the fact that you are know under the assumption that your fire ele is useless..perpetuated no doubt by the fact that you really have little understanding of how the game works and what your skills are doing.

Animals DO NOT attack when they feel threatened...animals attack when they feel threatened AND can't find a reasonable escape OR feel as though they have the upper hand. Sorry to say...stepping 10 feet to the side and removing yourself from AoE damage is HELPING you in battle..any creature(whether fictional or real) SHOULD and most definately WOULD possess the innate instincts to do this(hence the reason it survived and wasn't completely whiped out with the rest of the creatures that don't possess this instinct)....and if your opinion weren't clouded by the fact that you're sole interest here is to make your Elementalist "uber" again you'd probably realize this.

Dude, for one, don't tell me what I think, and what my assumptions are, nor what my interest here is. You honestly have no idea.
I'm freaking a lvl 13, I'm not uber, and I never will be, and I never want to be.

You're only reapeating, "it's dumb to stand there" in glorified words.

But you did prove my point further, this game is obviously not the real world, if animals only attack if they have the upper hand, have no means of escape, and all that.

Anything that sees me, aside from the few monsters that don't aggro period will attack, weather they have a chance of surviving or not. That alone would show that the creature might not step out of my pidly firestorm that does 14 each second.

The trigger added is just a really sad imitation at reason.

It's a simple trigger that is sometimes insanely stupid. A bone dragon(i think that's what they're called) should hardly blink if I use firestorm on him. But no, even If I took all points out of fire, firestorm is doing so little damage as to be laughable, the biggest monsters in the game will still run away from it, maybe turn to fight me, maybe a different target all together.
Now, if I get a creature down to a tenth of his life(or whatever level, 25%), I would have no problem with him trying to run away or switching targets.

You cry, it's realism.
It's freaking not, and you can't argue the point.
You'd do better trying to get everyone to believe that clouds are black if you look at the earth from space.

*Edit*
Furthermore, a magically created creature is not likely created with self preservation in mind. Take some elemental. All they do is wander around till you show up. they don't eat, they don't find shelter. Most monsters, in any sci fi or fantasy world, are basically creations programmed to kill.
They are minions, basically, from some things as high up as gods. They are programmed to kill.
So, in almost most past fantasy writings, the former AI of these monsters is held more true to the storyline in how they were created.
Programmer(or evil god)
HHmm, if I make a hundred of these creatures, with claws and big teeth, well, i'm going to make them as ferocious as possible. I'm not going to program them with anything else, why should I?
Most any evil power in any story, thinks it's invincible and this gets passed on to it's minions, and that is it's weakness.


I wil concede a point. Sometimes in a fight, such a simple thing as a sidestep is purely instinctual.
If that were the case, everything in the game should randomly sidestep any given attack. To work it into a realistic code for games like this would be immensely ridiculous. You're talking full out, tactical fighting down to foot placement and stance, you're not going to get anything like that outside of a virtual 3d full scale room.

On this medium, and this type of game(RPG), any attempt at simulation of real world circumstances would be futile and impossible to control. If you want to push realism, make fighting in water slower, movement and everything. when people fall down on hillsides, have them roll down the hill. There are a plethora of things like that that NEED to be added to a game to make it realistic.

This game is so far away from any sort of realism, it's stuck where it's at, and adding overly simplistic triggers only makes it worse(IE the patch where the monsters sprinted away). Utterly futile to argue that it's realism.

Argue me if you will, you know you're wrong, and so does anyone else reading these posts.

So what about the humans, Forgotten, Centaurs, and all those other creatures who kill humanity just because they're annoying?

Your logic loses.

/unsigned

Oh, and don't forget the Charr. The crazy, feral, bestial race that happens to know how to work advanced magic, and has shown no sign of eating humans. Should they stand in the firey-pain circle too?

Whew... Since I have no intention of particpating in PvP that often, that's good to know.

But seriously, I kid..well not really. No really, I'm kinda glad they make things more of a challenge....seems sorta opposite of a trend I've noticed in alot of games.

So I guess I agree and if I was cool I'd do a '/not signed' to the OP, but since I'm not I won't.

Simply one example, taken completely out of context.


Oh, didn't you read that part? The whole post was not about eating humans, but offering several explanations, that could span acrost every race of monster, of why they would not have a sense of self preservation. Just because everyone has this ideal of selfish, and not selflessness programmed into them, you call can't imagine it.

Lets me and you fight. You can have a buddy poor flaming coals on me. I'll suffer through it, guarantee you. You'll be totally missing vital parts of your anatomy, and I'll have burn scars, big woop.(That's sarcasm, kinda, in no way a threat, just an example)

/retarted

You lose for not having reading comprehension skills.

Wow, way to call me retarded and be offensive to everyone who has a mental disability, simply for not having time to do more than skim.

/You lose, for using mental disabilities for insults

Now, let's see; currently, the combat system can't deal with specific-damage point flee triggers. So they put in a conditional trigger; If taking damage from an AoE effect, move. It's a simple, effective way to stop AoE nuking from being the end-all approach to kill monsters.

You are the one saying that making it realistic is impossible to control; this isn't realistic, per se. It's a change to encourage other elementalist styles of play, not a change to make the game more realistic.

How ironic, that you're the one crying about the change because it isn't realistic.

I didn't call you or anyone else retarded specifically, maybe i was just calling the /unsigned part retarted. What does that really mean, /unsigned, your name is already up in the corner.

I'm not crying, I'm actually laughing at you, but not to the point of tears yet.

The change wasn't to put elementalists in line, or they would have edited the skills that were overpowered, as is the trend for such fairness patches.
The change was to put an end to the biggest farmers, elementalists.

You missed alot.
I'm not saying it isn't realistic now.
Someone said that it was not realistic before the patch, and I listed several reasons that it was reaslistic before the patch.
I then went into detail about realism in a pc video game, and about how little can be achieved, and how pathetic it really is.

I do not support the change, I am opposed to it, because there is no reason I should buy the game, to have it change this drastically under my feet.

If you're going to reply to people, you should really know what's going on.
You remind me of Donnie(sp?) from the Big Lebowski.

Why the hell shouldn't they - They'll stand in an 80+ dmg Cyclone axe swing but Run for the hills when I pop an 8 point Symbol of Wrath!

The idea behind the patch is a sound one but it stops there. The AI didn't become "Smarter". Test it yourself, Take any Class with a Monk secondary to any battle area. Use a Non AoE Skill with points at MAX and see if they RUN. Now cast Symbol of Wrath in a Mob with 0 Points in the Smiting and see what happens... Then talk about "Intelligent" AI

It is dumb to stand there; may I ask your point?
If I was in a fight to the death and my opponent had set up something that was shooting pressurized water at me, I would dodge it. It obviously can't injure me, but it sure as hell is annoying. I would imagine its fairly similar with magical fire from the sky :P
Well for one thing, I highly doubt a bone dragon can blink. Another thing, I don't know many people that wait until a problem is almost killing them before they try to fix it. It doesn't make too much sense to me.
How many races are magically created? Elementals, possibly titans, and undead? The AI evolves with technology The limitations of other games shouldn't be used as an excuse for why GW shouldn't incorporate new technology.


The monsters aren't dodging the attacks; they are merely moving out of sources of pain. Theres a huge difference between accounting for every minute detail and giving creatures reflexive actions.
So you're basically saying that you would prefer changes that don't show how little you know about the game? Moving on ice or in tar is slower. Get a bit further before you argue about mechanics. If you make blanket statements like the above: "You're wrong, and I won't listen to you because you're wrong", you will just make yourself look stupid.

That is one reason to move, I listed several viable reasons to tough it out, all applicable to one or several monsters.

I'm not talking about game design, I'm talking about a theoretical evil wizard or god. You missed that boat entirely. Here, let me repost that one point.
Obviously none of these creatures are just natural evolutions, magic had an influence, maybe it just mutated, whatever the case, they got twisted in some form or another. I'm using story, well established pseudo mythology from many works of fiction to illustrate my point. If you don't understand that, I say dragon, you think big lizard with wings, blows fire(or the oriental version). Well there's a common concept about vampire, they drink blood.
None of this is real, but it's commonly accepted that's the way these creatures would be if they existed.
"Furthermore, a magically created creature is not likely created with self preservation in mind. Take some elemental. All they do is wander around till you show up. they don't eat, they don't find shelter. Most monsters, in any sci fi or fantasy world, are basically creations programmed to kill.
They are minions, basically, from some things as high up as gods. They are programmed to kill.
So, in almost most past fantasy writings, the former AI of these monsters is held more true to the storyline in how they were created.
Programmer(or evil god)
HHmm, if I make a hundred of these creatures, with claws and big teeth, well, i'm going to make them as ferocious as possible. I'm not going to program them with anything else, why should I?
Most any evil power in any story, thinks it's invincible and this gets passed on to it's minions, and that is it's weakness."

Overconfidence, insane killer, whatever the case may be, it's different than a bear crappin' in the woods.


They are currently only moving out one very specific, and sometimes very minimal amounts of "pain" while not having a problem at all with a majority of sources of immense "pain."

Again, somone takes one tiny part of an idea out of context. It was an example, in water, I never noticed a slowing effect.
I did not mention tar or Ice.
What I mentioned were just examples of all kinds of realism, more than I could list, could be theretically added, if that were the purpose of the game.

And you tell me I need to get further...

Read the whole argument of realism vs video game in the past several posts, come back when you can keep atleast a whole idea in your head.

If you're going to run away from water during a life or death fight, you may want to avoid fighting at all costs.

"Well for one thing, I highly doubt a bone dragon can blink. Another thing, I don't know many people that wait until a problem is almost killing them before they try to fix it. It doesn't make too much sense to me."

OK, relate that to your life and death fight invovling presurized water, but it's now a fake supersoaker.

You:
"If I was in a fight to the death and my opponent had set up something that was shooting pressurized water at me, I would dodge it. It obviously can't injure me, but it sure as hell is annoying. I would imagine its fairly similar with magical fire from the sky :P"


Me:
"Lets me and you fight. You can have a buddy poor flaming coals on me. I'll suffer through it, guarantee you. You'll be totally missing vital parts of your anatomy, and I'll have burn scars, big woop.(That's sarcasm, kinda, in no way a threat, just an example)"


Most people in a struggle, life or death, won't care about, or even notice,annoying. And that's people, imagine some unrealistic creature, wanting to devour your soul or something. What's a little watter, or some hot coals bouncing offa me?

If you were fighting on gravel or pavement, would you try to move the fight on over to the nice soft non abrasive grass?


I'm not saying every creature will stand that and take the damage as an absolute. But if they're going to only flee/escape/sidestep AOEs, even if the damage is negligible, that's not right at all.
I'm arguing that the absolute idea of it's dumb to stand there, so I will ALWAYS move, but only for this specific skill, is also not right at all.