Hypothetical Scenario: What If ANet Implemented This AI Change Next?

A thought hit me the other day. Imagine if there was another AI change. A change where enemies could choose not to attack through Empathy, or choose not to cast through Backfire, or choose not to do anything through Spiteful Spirit. This kind of change would bring out the true "damned if you do, damned if you don't" nature of these hexes if enemies sometimes played conservatively and waited some of these hexes out. Note how I say sometimes. Also, enemy choices would be partially determined by the strength of the hex cast on them.

All I have to say is, be prepared. It may happen sooner or later.

I've already had AI not casting through backfire, and I thought it was great. Instead of getting their spell out (usually cast it on monk ai) they just dont do anything for 10 seconds.

I'm sure this is an unpopular opinion, but I think they should do this. This goes toward making RP and PvP more similar (which Gaile stated as a goal of Anet), as skills like Empathy are used differently in each (as were AoE skills). Empathy, Backfire, etc are more of a deterrent in PvP against reasonably experienced opponents.

However, I think that there should be a delay after the hex is cast before the monster cancels its skill or stops using them. This is similar to how someone may take a second or two to realize that a hex is on them and stop doing things to hurt themselves.

I also think that there should be some basic decision-making AI in there to simulate the fact that players will sometimes attack or cast a spell even if it *does* hurt them, if end result is in their favor. For example, casting Remove Hex on yourself when you have Backfire on you is usually better than just standing around for however long it lasts, *unless* casting that spell will kill you or put you very close to death.

I think this sort of decision-making should be built into the AoE-over time avoidance AI. A warrior monster may very well take the damage in order to continue attacking a monk unless he's low on health, whereas a caster may move out of the spell immediately. This is the sort of flexible decision-making that occurs in PvP rather than always stopping what you're doing to react to AoE damage or reactive-damage hexes.

i'm all for it.

either way they make it the hexed foe is screwed. they act they pay for it. they don't attack they will pay for it.

I played a Mesmer through PvE, and I would support this change 100%. There is no reason Deep Knights should swing away happily through my 31-per-swing Empathy.

I will be very happy if/when it's implemented.

AI that actually makes intelligent decisions sometimes? No... we can't have that. PvE is too hard. We need mindless AI.

/sarcasm

Anyway to improve the AI of PUG's? ROFL!

LOL I nearly fell out of my chair when I read this! Thank goodness I wasn't drinking any of my coffee at the time

BTW, I've seen many caster stop casting when I have cast backfire on them. So the moster AI does have that part figured out, but they still keep on attacking with Empathy cast on them...

And I personally don't see why they shouldn't be changed to do that.. or have a call which decides if they do - ie say they are at or under 50% health with Empathy cast on them.. thus they stop attacking and run away!

They already have annoying "run" AI in places in the game, why not just expand on it to include stuff like if they have Empathy cast on them, or if they are low on health they try and run away... just like those blasted Grawl do in Old Ascalon! They are soooo annoying! heheheheh

I have seen enemy AI cancel a spell when they were backfired if it would have killed them, but if they can cast one without dying, they usualy do.

On the other hand, I have seen enemies kill themselves via empathy before.

I say, make them stop attacking/casting through them, but as the OP said, make it only sometimes. Such as. . . While I would not have them run as far as they can, a retreat attempt to get away from combat would be nice. If they have retreated a set amount and are still taking hits, the AI would deem retreat impossible, but hold attacks.

Great topic and some very good ideas by Grimm.
This type of a system would make the game much better IMO at the same time it would give the monsters a very unfair advantage which has been pointed out by Anets most recent improvement to the AI.
In a recent trip to fow in a fairly good group,all of the monsters are now smart enough not to stand in an AOE untill they die but during one battle we had 3 people die in the very same firestorm cast by the 'stupid beasts'
3 of 8 were not as smart as the monsters and again I point out that it was a fairly decent group of players I would guess that of the players that I have encountered in the game that the % is much higher in the general population of people that don't have enough sense to get in out of the rain or maelstrom as the case may be.
How many of you have been in a group and suddenly start taking damage for no reason at all, then you spot the guy next to you with Spiteful spirit on him just hacking away.
I am all for Anet adding more changes to the AI just like this idea, it would make the game alot more fun but we also need to see if someone can come up with an improvement of the IQ for the players just to make it somewhat fair.

Very good idea. However, I think this should be different for different creatures. I can't see a sage (supposedly ancient and wise) casting itself to death when backfired. I can see a beserking Ettin, Troll, Grawl or Minotaur completely ignoring empathy easily.

Different AI/behavour for different creatures is the best way forward for PvE, I think. This would make getting to know different creatures and finding their weaknesses more interesting (npc's might even be added with bits of lore about your opponents). After all, finding a way to exploit the weaknesses of your mirror at Ascension is one of the more interesting pve experiences, for most players, especially if it is their first time and they have not read a guide or something.

A large diversity of behavioral patterns might be a lot of fun. Imagine imps always running away from warriors and retreating when outnumbered (being somewhat cowardly), ettins standing still or walking around in some random direction if a ranger is firing at them from a distance, taking them a moment to spot where the arrows are coming from, undead relentlessly attacking any monk they see. Lizards hiding under the surface of a lake or stream, perhaps using stealth/assassin-like skills, different monsters having different agro ranges, not always charing in directly but grouping together, etc. So many options. Some of those will make the game harder. But pve needs to be a bit harder anyway, not by just adding bigger, tougher and more monsters (like with the titan-missions) or just adding monks, mesmers, etc to any group of monsters, making every battle seem like a tombs battle with less intelligent opponents (not that there is anything wrong with that, but not all pve fighting should be that way).

Of course, more diversity in behaviour, including weaknesses will make it it a bit easier for farm 'specialists' to exploit these. But players have been doing that anyway, but with a generic strategy for all melee creatures with good drops. However, making the PvE part of the game more interesting should have priority over combating farming (if that is what Anet was trying to do with the recent updates).

Anyway, so many options. I do hope will overcome the design issues relating to AI that they mentioned and open up this large range of possibilities.

If three people on your team died to one fire storm, I would have to assume your general standards (or experience with pugs) are quite poor. When AI outsmarts real players, it's time to find new people to play with.

To the OP: If the AI were to perform exactly how a player would perform, I would make my support very, very visible. I celebrate every day the AI outdoes the average (aka very poor) player.

Or maybe Mursaat Elementalists time together to do spikings :P

Ettins using knockdown chains XD

Interrupting/distracting shot by Jade Bows

yes i like it, but i hope they put some stupid monster that will still attack when empathy, spiteful spirit and not run away from aoe dmg. just like some of the real life player, some of them is stupid enough to stand in aoe.

Yep, some should be smart, some should be stupid. Not all the same. And the ai should have imperfect reactions too, for interupts, for example.

I agree, but for a somewhat different reason than you might expect. Many of the ettin, troll, or minotaur builds involve endure pain, healing signet, or other means to prolong life. In other words, they can still attempt to work around the damage up front in order to apply presure to the opponent. For other monster types, who do not have those style of abilities, they should be more cautious/intellegent in behavior. I am all for making AI by monster class/type, but that would require a lot of time setting up and testing i think. So, its not something i expected right out the gate with the game, but something that was fine tuned over time. Although, considering the aoe change, it does strike some as added content other than a refinement of existing behavior. In either event, it is not a bad move by intent, but some of the actual application could use a little more work.

I've seen humans cast through backfire, die, get rezzed and cast through backfire again! .. Why should the AI be smarter than the average human?

If that level 28 axe stops attacking when Spiteful Spirit is casted on him, then I want the ability to get some 120AL armor, or an attribute 20 heal to mitigate the 250 point bonks ion the head. Of course that won't happen, and it's even less likely that humans will get smarter. So then I want the ability to select what skills and weapons my henchies use. Having a party formation selecton would be nice too. As much as I detest Alesia, I don't want her in the front of my group. I need someone to run into the poison water/lava pit to rez Stefan after he chased an enemy into who was running for the hills to get away from Orions awesomely powerful Firestorm that would kill an entire zone in one cast.

There was a monk in my party tonight that was attempting the Defend Denravi quest who died at least 8 times trying to cast through backfire.

Yes, PvE hostile creatures need the ability to make decisions. If someone is casting for example Fire Storm with Rank 1 fire magic, they won't run away because received damage is so minor anyway. Sometimes they would make sacrifices like couple hostile creatures keep hitting party member(s) even they receive AoE damage. High damage AoE spells like Balthazar's Aura or Meteor Shower would almost always make them run from it. Hostile casters would always run away from Maelstorm because it interrupts spells. They shouldn't be so sensitive for low damage AoE damage unless they have low health. AI should command them to scatter around and even switch targets but they should also focus more to one target. Single burst AoE spells like Fireball, Inferno, Phoenix, etc. wouldn't trigger escape reaction.

AI behaviour would depend from creature's natural intelligence. However, there shouldn't be totally mindless creatures especially if they are easy solo farming spot.

IMO, it is players job to keep hostile creatures in AoE range if they try to run from it. For example Elementalist Water Magic attribute skills have gained some extra attention because of improved AI.

EDIT:

I have a bit strange feeling that improved AI has also something to do with Chapter 2 assassin if she has mind skills. She could manipulate AI not to sense danger for example they won't feel from AoE or something. Don't know how those mind skills would work in PvP. Just a thought.

I like that idea, even though it sounds kinda mesmer-ish. Have it fit into pvp as well and you would have a winner of a skill probably.

Im all for making the monsters Uber hard and intelligent, but the drops should also represent that, make killing them in teams worth it and a REAL challenge.

You are basically suggesting that all hexes should do 1 thing - make the enemy stop it's actions.
Every single hex will have the exact same effect and the game would die a painful death.

Thats a good point.

That's already happening. Maybe I'm just imagining it, but I'm noticing a definate decrease in players in the major areas.

Lots of ranger-type mobs interrupt. Try a long cast while fighting stone summit scouts, for instance.
My mesmer came up against the perfected armor in Thunderhead back when the ranger interrupts were broken, and it wasn't pretty (I don't remember what interrupts the armor used, but it kept my mesmer and usually also Mhenlo permanently interrupted, and henches alone really can't take down a boss). Luckily the next time I got the monk boss, and my mesmer eats monk bosses for breakfast.

If the level 28 aatxe isn't attacking, you're not getting an awful lot of 250 damage bonks on the head either.

Oh, and in ring of fire - if you're taking an all-hench team, ignor the viziers advice and go in through the front door. It is far easier than taking the lava-with-imps sneakway due to the henches inability to notice that they are on fire.

Perhaps you're right, but people have been saying that since at least June, and AFAI can tell Ascalon still has on average 7-8 English speaking districts here in the EU, same as it had one month after release.

yesterday i got on LA european 1 near 1 AM GMT +1 , they used to be a lot of trader , now it was half emphy, i cant even bought 200 wood :\

I think there should be a proper tactical ackbone for AI first, I keep thinking a system like dungeon seige where you can dictate formation and stances to your henchies to tell them to stand back or attack on sight etc. Just like we tend to dictate during PuGs on PvE.

Telling alesia to get the f*** back can only be an up.

Also, AoE should be tactical decisions, I normally have to tell a group to fall back from an AoE. And I thinkt he same should be for enemies, if they're just a couple of lone minions then maybe they won't fall back from an AoE, but if they have a boss or a large group they might. And I use the words MIGHT, not just "IF (AoE spell cast) THEN run();" But maybe run if they're low on health or if it's seriously damaging.

But once empathy wears off it's still me(us) against him, and 4X the strength. At that point as we're having the stare down, some silly ele will cast meteor shower and cause the axe to run towards all the casters. The new AI kicks in and the Axe is thinking, "hmm, there's the SOB that empathied me." *slap* :Oh look, the monk with SoJ", expired of course. *slap* Looks back at me "aha, youre the one that scratched my nose with that level 12 100 blades, bite the pillow bitch, I'm taking the dirt road this time." *slap slap slap*

Click here to return to the outpost rightfully shamed by superior AI.


It seems LA is virtually empty when I'm there. Dist 1 and 2 are still full of sellers, but by 3 it's usually me and a couple Korean guys. And no, I don't want to buy for 15K ok.

Yeah, I can't deny it seems there are fewer on the servers to me now too. Still, I don't know, perhaps they're more spread out, or doing PvP. I'd love to see some statistics, but ANet's unlikely to release any, *especially* if player count is dropping.

I started a new avatar a few days ago, and fwiw there were still plenty of beginners in pre-sear. Plus it seems many of the people playing GW for the socializing hangs out in pre-sear.

Well, hell, I don't know.

EDIT: if player numbers ARE dropping enough that ANet/NCsoft are getting worried about it, I'd expect them to release a public demo. Like the 10 hour ATI demo, but open to everyone. We'll see what happens when the ATI license expires on the 30th.

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Well, one would expect the amount of players online to have dropped by now anyway, at least in the US. After all, the game has been out for quite a while now. Most of people to whom this game appeals will have bought it by now and have had plenty of time to play it. And once you have done pretty much all there is to do in pve, it will eventually start to bore you a little if you play a lot. For those who have moved on to (or started out with) PvP, they game will get boring less quickly (but still it will get boring for them at some point, depending on how much they like it and if they find the opportunity to advance in pvp). I expect that whether you will or will not keep playing regularly until the release of the expansion will be determined to a large degree on whether or not you are in an active, nice guild or have friends in the game that stay active. The amount of districts in Lion's does not tell you everything, or course. I spend a lot more time chatting in our Guild hall than I spend in Lion's. But fewer players online until the release of the next chapter does not mean a dead game.

Sorry for getting off-topic here. Better and especially more diverse AI would be excellent, I think, especially for the new monsters in the next chapter. If this makes the game harder. then Anet can simply adjust the amount of creatures in a particular area so as to keep it playable.

Of course, people will find ways to exploit the AI. That is pretty much the case with any game. But this is how it should be. That is how you are supposed to fight opponents, isn't it? Especially if they are stronger or outnumber you. This is true for pvp as well. You want to exploit the enemy's weaknesses. Covering your own and finding and exploiting their's is what pvp is all about, really (and waiting for an hour to find a group if you are not rank 6, of course. )

Very true

Nah, it should keep a tally and have an announcer voice like Unreal tournament and say things like K.O., devs win or Flawless victory, with some crunching and ripping sounds, maybe a little screaming followed by fatality. Could even have one person's connection get killed at that point. Then when you go back and try it again, it would show the #of attempts like round 762, Fight!. Make a really big and overdone production with it too, just to rub in how much we suck at their game n stuff, er yeah thats it.

Hockster wins the thread.

Hardest part of Villainy of Galrath? Keeping the idiot brigade out of the poison swamps in the beginning of Kessex Peak.

Furthermore, I've always questioned the need for Mhenlo and Lina to run ahead of me, into the entire enemy group, in order to cast a healing spell on me. STAY IN THE BACK! YOU ARE SQUISHY!

That is key... you can't have AI interrupting you in 0.25 seconds because it's machine driven...

While we're at it, please add some henchie commands:

/follow
/attack
/stay

The only problem with this is the Tomps is fairly balanced in numbers with 8 on each side and playing with henchies who don't have the best set of skills on them won't work unles they are given completly set of skills and to level them up to the same level all the foes are so instead of seeing level 17 in the desert you see level 20s like yourself which they should be anyway 3 hits with Hydra they reach max dp.I like Id of the OP but not just for mesmers.

The AI change could work if it was balanced well. Obviously, enemies shouldn't have an automatic reaction to it; it should take them about 1-1.5 seconds to recognize the hex, sort of like how they recognize AoE's now. From there, they could sometimes attack/cast through the hex, or simply flee for a bit, depending on the situation, strength of the hex, and type of mob.

I think this kind of thing would really bring out the true use of the hexes. As it stands, most of the time these hexes are considered unconditional damage against the right foe. We all know that Mesmers prefer more sophisticated methods of dealing with trouble than simple damage.

Yep, mesmers like to present people with a dilema: you cast, you take XXX damage, you don't, you lose energy, xxx health due to life drain, etc. I would like to see differrent responses to this. Same thing for skills such as gladiator defense. And all skills really.

One thing to keep in mind though when we're talking about further enhancing the AI, and if someone already mentioned this my apologies... the AI already has MANY advantages over us. In the high level zones, the mobs are ALWAYS higher level than us. They have greater damage dealing ability, more armor, and faster reflexes. If you add a human-like adaptability to those factors... you may end up with something more than an 8-player group can handle.

In a way, this can happen. However, choosing to flee may actually give the human team the advantage they need. If you Backfired a Mursaat Elementalist, then it ran away, wouldn't that make it easier to kill the rest of the group before the hex victim returned? It would also make things easy if the Elementalist decided to cast through it, since it would practically kill itself doing so. That's exactly what these hexes should be for; the dilemma that Roza pointed out.

I see what you mean though. Mobs shouldn't have ungodly decision-making skills if they already have a strength and number advantage over human teams.