(I made this thread at TGH and everyone seemed to like the idea, so I decided to get your oppinions...)
The basic idea is a melee weapon (for instance, a Rapier) with the exact same stats as a Wand/Staff, but it would be for casters. Just incase you don't get it: Warrior skills (ie, interupting attack) would not work with these weapons.
Why? Cause when you're using a caster that has spells that rely on close range (for instance, a smiter using Holy Strike with Signets), it is extremely troublesome (especially in PvP when people run) to stay in Melee/Touch range of your opponent. If you have a build like this, you have two options: Either use a staff/wand and manually (and painfully) stay in range, or, as most people do: Use a sword which you have no attributes for to stay in range - which means you lose all those "20% chance", things.
For example, a Mesmer would probably use a Rapier (seems fitting. Weak in combat, but fancy, etc.) which would have the stats 11-22 (staff max). It would still do pretty much what a wand does, except it could be used to trigger Illusionary Weaponry, rather than a crappy sword you have no attributes in.
A monk could use a Bo/Jo staff, a Necro could use a Scythe/Sickle, an Elementalist could use a Mace or something, and so on. They shouldn't be already existing melee weapons with a cheap-lazy-game-developement-glow around them.
Anyway you get the idea... Or if you don't, read it again. And then go take an English class or something.
Melee Caster Weapons
Weezer_Blue
Shimus DarkRaven
I agree tenfold. If the weapon doesn't exceed any stats the rods/staffs have, I'm all for this idea. I think the big idea here is just giving casters a melee weapon with ~approx the same attack speed as a warrior weapon, in which case, again, I'm all for, but it'd have to utilize more attack time, or less damage, if this were the case warriors wouldn't be needed.
--The Shim
--The Shim
Hot Dead
The caster melee weapons have the max dmg of a max dmg wand/staff but the attacking speed of a hammer (or a bit faster)
so I agree
/signed
so I agree
/signed
NatalieD
Sounds good, except the weapons should be, like, daggers, or something similarly less practical than the warrior weapons. It would be really weird to have swordsmanship skills not work with a rapier.
Slade xTekno
I think it'd be easiest if we made the melee weapons identical to wands in terms of damage, requirements, and attack speed.
However, I think this would simply be an extraneous feature.
However, I think this would simply be an extraneous feature.
Weezer_Blue
Uhh... I don't understand. This is a different sort of caster weapon that's pretty much the same, except for the melee range requirement. I think a warrior or ranger should do better base damage cause that's all their damage.
As for daggers or something... A rapier is a pretty weak sword. You could easily slice one in half with a battle harded sword, and other than perhaps skills like Reposte (which has a fencer on it, by the way), using sword skills like Sever Artery and Gash would be illogical. The most you can do with a rapier is stab someone, and unless you hit them in a critical area, it won't be fatal. Daggers wouldn't really fit casters well, imo.
As for daggers or something... A rapier is a pretty weak sword. You could easily slice one in half with a battle harded sword, and other than perhaps skills like Reposte (which has a fencer on it, by the way), using sword skills like Sever Artery and Gash would be illogical. The most you can do with a rapier is stab someone, and unless you hit them in a critical area, it won't be fatal. Daggers wouldn't really fit casters well, imo.
Weezer_Blue
Cough*Ahem*Bump*Cough
NatalieD
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Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue
As for daggers or something... A rapier is a pretty weak sword. You could easily slice one in half with a battle harded sword, and other than perhaps skills like Reposte (which has a fencer on it, by the way), using sword skills like Sever Artery and Gash would be illogical. The most you can do with a rapier is stab someone, and unless you hit them in a critical area, it won't be fatal.
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Quote:
| Daggers wouldn't really fit casters well, imo. |
I didn't mean that they should all be daggers, necessarily. I'm just saying, it would make more sense for the caster weapons to be the sort of smaller, more convenient, less battlefield-practical weapons that would be favored by someone who isn't generally a front-line soldier. Like a dagger, or a truncheon/baton/jo/whatever. Long staves, rapiers, and maces are the sort of thing I would expect to see on a warrior.
nightrunner
I'm thinking very ornate, bloody sacrificial daggers for necros, rapiers for mesmers, staffs for monks and eles. And I think there should be a big morningstar or chain mace model hammer for warriors 
Shimus DarkRaven
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Originally Posted by nightrunner
I'm thinking very ornate, bloody sacrificial daggers for necros, rapiers for mesmers, staffs for monks and eles. And I think there should be a big morningstar or chain mace model hammer for warriors
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But seriously good ideas all around.
--The Shim
Arcanis the Omnipotent
I'm thinking this would make Mesmer IW builds alot more interesting.
NatalieD
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Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent
I'm thinking this would make Mesmer IW builds alot more interesting.
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Actually, if the caster melee weapons have all the same stats as wands, then no IW mesmer who knows what she's doing would even use one. Regular swords have a faster attack rate.
DeanBB
I like this idea as it makes it much easier to get a monk or elementalist into range for a point blank area spell, like inferno or symbol of wrath. Right now I'm using one of the no requirement crystaline-like swords from pre-searing for this so it would be cool to have a weapon for the actual class.
Thunderbolt300
Now don't get me wrong- sounds like a great idea. Personally I'm an elementalist and I love using point-blank spells and I've had trouble getting myself into close range in order to properly nuke. So- I switched to a sword (one of those +5 energy swords sold in Henge for a while before it was patched) and I get the energy bonus off the sword anyway, and I used that in combat for a while, until I got ahold of a longsword with a zealous enchantment and an enchantment duration extension. Magical properties on swords still apply even if you don't meet the requirement to use them!
The only boon to being proficient with the weapon is the damage increase. Damage from a weapon isn't all that important to me, though.
The only boon to being proficient with the weapon is the damage increase. Damage from a weapon isn't all that important to me, though.
Weezer_Blue
That's really the least important thing to me. The important part is weapons with things such as "Faster Recharge (20% Chance), Faster Cast (20% Chance)" on them. These upgrades give you the edge in a battle. There are no swords with good energy mods either. Also, there should be a 1 and 2 handed version of each.
Also, if there is a war that was fought completely with rapiers, I haven't heard of it. Most of them are either false edged or have no edge and make horrible slicing weapons except with the tip. And you might as well use a spear otherwise. Ranking on battle weapons, Rapiers fall pretty close to the bottom, from everything I have seen.
Also, if there is a war that was fought completely with rapiers, I haven't heard of it. Most of them are either false edged or have no edge and make horrible slicing weapons except with the tip. And you might as well use a spear otherwise. Ranking on battle weapons, Rapiers fall pretty close to the bottom, from everything I have seen.
SilenceWeaver
this would definitely be quite fun.
im also going to agree with arcanus that this would make my IW baby possibly more powerful or fun to play.
while the attack might not be the same as a sword, the extra energy/mods on the caster weapon might offset that and create a new type of IW mesmer that could say, be an illusionist and an IW (really all u need for IW is IW itself, flurry, distortion, and IoW, and maybe say heal sig) that would leave 2-3 slots that could be used for illusion stuff.
anywho, getting off topic, /signed in support of caster melee waepons.
im also going to agree with arcanus that this would make my IW baby possibly more powerful or fun to play.
while the attack might not be the same as a sword, the extra energy/mods on the caster weapon might offset that and create a new type of IW mesmer that could say, be an illusionist and an IW (really all u need for IW is IW itself, flurry, distortion, and IoW, and maybe say heal sig) that would leave 2-3 slots that could be used for illusion stuff.
anywho, getting off topic, /signed in support of caster melee waepons.
Jigs
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Originally Posted by NatalieD
Sounds good, except the weapons should be, like, daggers, or something similarly less practical than the warrior weapons. It would be really weird to have swordsmanship skills not work with a rapier.
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Laurelin Goldtree
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Originally Posted by Hot Dead
The caster melee weapons have the max dmg of a max dmg wand/staff but the attacking speed of a hammer (or a bit faster)
so I agree |
Then, you could include some larger weapons that would be stand-ins for staves...Obviously, you don't want to give someone a staff substitute (ie a sword) that allows them to carry an off hand item-so to balance it, you could make the staff equivalencies big and heavy (same swing rate as a normal staff)-just animated to be 2-handed.
IE Willcrusher converted to melee could be a big, bulky sword:
Korvald's Willcrusher (could be a hammer type weapon)
Chaos Damage 11-22 (req 9 Domination)
Energy +10
Improves Skill Recharge Time Using Dom Skills (20% Chance)
Energy +5
Health +30
Quick Recovery from Dazed
Two-Handed
It would only change the look of the staves/wands in game and one's range...it'd have it's own ups and downs..."Yay! I don't have to lose my extra energy to carry a sword for IW" and "Oh no! I'm too close and they're killing me!"
so...yeah, defintely signed...I want a pretty little feminine sword like the mesmer in the game guide has...
EagleEye33
I dont find this Idea that great, it seems like your just trying to give your caster more power to make things a lot easier for u
Chev of Hardass
Hmm, a little buff to the players so that they don't need to think...............
I am ok with this, IF they add a Strength/Tactics Staff and Wand and Off-hand. IF they add a Wilderness Survival/Expertise Staff and Wand and Off-hand
Seems like you are forgetting the Trapping rangers without any damage output from their staffs.
Really, I think you are using a Aftershock combo, don't want to think about where your target is and just want to mash buttons, but hey, that's just my oppinion.
I am ok with this, IF they add a Strength/Tactics Staff and Wand and Off-hand. IF they add a Wilderness Survival/Expertise Staff and Wand and Off-hand
Seems like you are forgetting the Trapping rangers without any damage output from their staffs.
Really, I think you are using a Aftershock combo, don't want to think about where your target is and just want to mash buttons, but hey, that's just my oppinion.
The Acolyte
I'm not crazy about this idea. If you want to use a weapon for damage and have that be one of your primary attack methods, make a W/E (or W/caster class)...there are some killer combos with this class setup, especially with earth magic. Otherwise, if you are a caster your primary method of attack should be casting. The only reason my ele uses a hand held weapon is if I've drained my energy (usually because the fight is long, but occasionally because I mis-managed my energy) OR if I've cast Mark of Rod on an enemy and am making em burn while my mana regens. That's it...otherwise, a weapon for a caster is totally unnecessary.
Acolyte Devathi
Acolyte Devathi
Weezer_Blue
First of all, I've never seen the EQ AS combo as effective, and certainly not the W/E Hammer Knockdowons and Aftershocks. Secondly, it would not make my character more effective, as you so sardonicly imply. And I certainly am not trying to make it so I don't have to "think". (most of the thinking is done before the build is in use, anyway).
Using caster spells that require melee range without a caster weapon that promotes melee range is a bad idea. Trying to stay in range with a staff just doesn't work - your enemies move too much, and, especially if they move during your cast time, your spell or combination of spells will lose it's effect. While this will still happen with a melee caster weapon, it would speed up the reaction as the controls don't allow you to keep up as well as an automatic follow system would.
However, there is an easy way around this: Just use a sword, right? No. Because then not only do you lose base weapon damage for if you're low on energy, you (and much more importantly) lose the upgrades that could come with your weapon, and you lose the weapon mods as well (if I remember correctly, they're still reliant upon attribute). Acolyte missed the point by a long shot as well. If I don't want any warrior skills at all... Why would I take a warrior weapon. Even worse: Why would I sacrafice my primary class for one?
Using caster spells that require melee range without a caster weapon that promotes melee range is a bad idea. Trying to stay in range with a staff just doesn't work - your enemies move too much, and, especially if they move during your cast time, your spell or combination of spells will lose it's effect. While this will still happen with a melee caster weapon, it would speed up the reaction as the controls don't allow you to keep up as well as an automatic follow system would.
However, there is an easy way around this: Just use a sword, right? No. Because then not only do you lose base weapon damage for if you're low on energy, you (and much more importantly) lose the upgrades that could come with your weapon, and you lose the weapon mods as well (if I remember correctly, they're still reliant upon attribute). Acolyte missed the point by a long shot as well. If I don't want any warrior skills at all... Why would I take a warrior weapon. Even worse: Why would I sacrafice my primary class for one?
Weezer_Blue
I think with the new contest coming out, it would be a nice time for new weapons... Especially since A.Net said so themselves.
jesh
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Originally Posted by SilenceWeaver
this would definitely be quite fun.
im also going to agree with arcanus that this would make my IW baby possibly more powerful or fun to play. while the attack might not be the same as a sword, the extra energy/mods on the caster weapon might offset that and create a new type of IW mesmer that could say, be an illusionist and an IW (really all u need for IW is IW itself, flurry, distortion, and IoW, and maybe say heal sig) that would leave 2-3 slots that could be used for illusion stuff. anywho, getting off topic, /signed in support of caster melee waepons. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent
I'm thinking this would make Mesmer IW builds alot more interesting.
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Weapon power has nothing to do with IW, I can't believe how many people have said this. A 3-4 shortsword works just as well.
And Weezer, you still get the effect of weapon upgrades even if you don't meet the attribute requirements. Hence the value of the Henge of Denravi swords with +20% enchant mods.
Elena
/signed oh how i'd love to see my N/R to fight side by side swining a schyte at monsters and having his wolf bite its leg *wanders off in a dream world*
SilenceWeaver
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Originally Posted by SilenceWeaver
while the attack might not be the same as a sword
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ya see for IW attack=attack speed so i was just not paying attention.
Weezer_Blue
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Originally Posted by jesh
And Weezer, you still get the effect of weapon upgrades even if you don't meet the attribute requirements. Hence the value of the Henge of Denravi swords with +20% enchant mods.
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Mayar third Keeper
/signed
Chev of Hardass
It still sounds like you want to remove some player skill from the equation.
How about those staffs for my trapping ranger friends?
Player skill over time spent. This is not a button pushing game, you are required to think.
/not signed
How about those staffs for my trapping ranger friends?
Player skill over time spent. This is not a button pushing game, you are required to think.
/not signed
dawnrain
Perhaps a more equitable suggestion is to have the developers modify the "follow" ability so that it can be used on enemies as well. Have this ability as a secondary action (primary action is attack) that can be triggered with a keyboard shortcut, comparable to the way the primary action is triggered with the space bar.
Hannibel
/not signed
melee weapons should be with melee characters, that's what they made them for, they made them have advantages that they could use these type's of things.
melee weapons should be with melee characters, that's what they made them for, they made them have advantages that they could use these type's of things.
jesh
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Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue
I stand corrected... However you'd still lose out on the upgrades that PvP weapons come with.
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Prepatch, I would have liked a staff head that made my damage physical.. now that Mark of Pain does nothing without a snare, I don't see that much use for it.
Weezer_Blue
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Originally Posted by Hannibel
/not signed
melee weapons should be with melee characters, that's what they made them for, they made them have advantages that they could use these type's of things. |
As for the follow on enemies, it would also work... but it wouldn't be as cool
darkdragon99
how about war staffs you use as melee weapons every caster class can have one a bloody war staff for a blood necro and so on.
Schorny
What has the right tool for the right job to do with thinking?
Comeone guys. A melee caster weapon won't be more powerful as ranged caster weapon, in fact it would deal less damage, because of kiting. The damage will no where near that of a warrior. And you can't use attack skills with it.
It is simple a new option. You don't have to grind for it or have to spend 1000 hours for it. It is just a weapon for casters that need to stay in melee range.
It is no threat to balance nor will it favor time spend over player skill. Please post serious reason why this is a bad idea...
Comeone guys. A melee caster weapon won't be more powerful as ranged caster weapon, in fact it would deal less damage, because of kiting. The damage will no where near that of a warrior. And you can't use attack skills with it.
It is simple a new option. You don't have to grind for it or have to spend 1000 hours for it. It is just a weapon for casters that need to stay in melee range.
It is no threat to balance nor will it favor time spend over player skill. Please post serious reason why this is a bad idea...
Chev of Hardass
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Originally Posted by Schorny
It is no threat to balance nor will it favor time spend over player skill. |
One word.........
Orders
jesh
Yes, send all your casters to the front lines with melee weapons and orders. Sounds like a total winning strategy to me. 
By the way, you realize you can already do that, if you're derranged enough? Caster classes still don't have IAS skills, and there aren't any melee attacks they could use to even make it worthwhile.
By the way, you realize you can already do that, if you're derranged enough? Caster classes still don't have IAS skills, and there aren't any melee attacks they could use to even make it worthwhile.
darkdragon99
it's not replacing the old ones it's adding a new one for the close range nukers and touch skills you know caster do have melee range spells.
Hannibel
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Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue
It's just about the same thing with trappers and beast masters. They simply aren't given the tools for the job so they end up using tools they have no use for. How useful can a staff possibly be to a trapper who has no stats in it? Where is the gnarled staff of wilderness survival or the whip of beast mastery with special attributes that help these players? In the same sense, where is the monk's kunlun bamboo staff or the mesmer's rapier? I don't want them to be useful with melee attacks such as Eviscerate or the like - I want them to be fit tools for those who need them. A.net has cornered all casters who need melee range (for instance, Holy Strike) to use weapons they have no attribute in and thus are much less effective. 20 percent less effective, actually.
As for the follow on enemies, it would also work... but it wouldn't be as cool |
rangers aren't spell casters, beast mastery skills aren't spells, traps aren't spells, spells are for casting, spell casters cast spells that's why they're called spell casters, staffs and wands are made for casting spells, melee weapons for casters.... traps and beast skills were made not be spells, because rangers aren't spellcasting class they're classified more as melee class, since there attacks arent spells.
Chev of Hardass
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Originally Posted by jesh
Yes, send all your casters to the front lines with melee weapons and orders. Sounds like a total winning strategy to me.
By the way, you realize you can already do that, if you're derranged enough? Caster classes still don't have IAS skills, and there aren't any melee attacks they could use to even make it worthwhile. |
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Originally Posted by darkdragon99
it's not replacing the old ones it's adding a new one for the close range nukers and touch skills you know caster do have melee range spells.
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For those of your arguing that Warriors have Melee weapons and casters should too: Go play a warrior some time. To be a sufficent IWAY warrior you only have to press "T" and spacebar. To be an effective warrior in any non-warrior heavy build you need to be constantly aware of your positioning and the positioning of your targets. A good warrior will use the arrows, or some directional control (including angle of attack), not just target spacebar combo.
Go mash buttons somewhere else.