Runners: the debate

I am disappointed by the prevalance and acceptance of runners in the game. A runner takes money from players to guarantee to get them to their next destination without having to fight all the way. In fact, people using runners don't have to do anything except stay online. As soon as the runner makes it to the next town, the client has arrived.

In mountain climbing there is a practice called "short-roping". If I want to get to the top of Mt. Everest but cannot make it by myself, a Sherpa guide will tie himself to me and drag me to the top. However, even with short-roping I have to place one foot in front of the other all the way up and down.

I have seen level 9 players in Ring of Fire and Thunderhead. They got there by hiring runners. But what is the point? They are not learning skills and would be of no help in a group. In Beacon's Perch most of the people are looking for runners to get them to Droknar's Forge, which is after Ascension. And just what do they hope to do in Droknar's, fit in with groups of infused veterans?

I wish any character who used a runner more than twice would automatically receive a brand on his forehead that reads "lamer". It is the challenge of the quest that makes the game fun, you get no satisfaction from being carried from town to town.

Ok that's my opinion. What's yours?

I can understand and accept the concept of running to a certain place because you want something. I myself want to have my Me/R run to the desert, but not because I plan to be of use, simply because I want a Dune Lizard for a pet. ^_^ Everyone has their reasons, and most people who can afford to get run to Thunderhead and the Ring of Fire have already gotten their or beaten the game beforehand to pay for the trip. However, I in no way encourage it: Getting run to an out of the way town is one thing, getting run through entire countries of the game is quite another. My biggest problem is the few times I've used a runner (I attempted to use one to get me to Copperhammer mines) I ended up paying half beforehand, and the runner turned out to suck and left the game. I've heard similar stories from friends as well, and while I can understand the runner trying to make sure they get paid for their services, it's pretty ridiculous for anyone to fork over money with absolutely no knowledge if they're going to get what they paid for.

So yes, running has it's uses at times, but it shouldn't be the first thought when starting a new character or getting to a new area... The game is meant to be played and enjoyed, not completely skipped over for a few gold.

My view is that people like this do not affect me, so i leave them to it.

If a runner wants to get to the desert at level 10 or whatever thats fine with me, just dont expect to join my group i dont take dead weight.

The only thing i have against it is that first time players should not be run, but they dont have any excuses as anyone with a brain can tell that paying someone to run you is a shortcut.

My sec charachter was partly run, so of course im for it as it let me skip parts of the game that i did not like. I only have a problem if it is abused, like twinkers in the low arenas.

End transmission

Well, imagine the following:

You play since the E34E, through the betas into release. You finished the game 3 times with your monk, warrior and ele. Now you want a ranger, necro and a mesmer. (leaving one slot for PvP.)

What do you do? Play the whole game again even though you beat it three times before? Or do you skip some parts in order to get your char lvl 20 and ready for PvP?

In addition to this case, which of course is my personal case, I bought a second account. And I can assure you neither of the 4 chars on this account are going to 'do' the game without running. In fact, two chars are ascended now. Number 3 and 4 are waiting in Sanctum to get into the desert...

Edit: while typing this post, two other persons posted as well. I totally agree with the fact that 1st time players shouldnt be ran through the game. Also, I think they need to fix something in the lower lvl arenas, because it is really broken now with lvl 10 chars with elite skills and drogs armor.

If it doesn't affect you, I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed. You don't have to group with them, they being in Forge doesn't result in monsters mysteriously doubling in strength or anything, so what's wrong? About the only downside is the increased spam in chat/trade in towns, and that's pretty damn easy to ignore as well.

Let's face it, once through the game is fresh, twice you can do it with your eyes closed, and the third time through, it gets extremely tedious, to the point that even skipping most of the useless/pointless quests, progression still isnt' fast enough.

You should know that even Anet doesn't have a problem with runners. They said that it was a neat idea and they are fine with it.
It doesn't really upset the game and it actually helps in some occasions. It is sometimes nice to have a low level person along with you that has Drok's armor and even elite skills. They are less likely do die and more than likely to help your chances of winning.
Like the others, I think a person playing for the first time shouldn't get run. it takes away the learning experience and the newbie would have ended up not learning the basics. If you have finished however, totally different story. They already know what they are doing and probably know quite a lot to not bother redoing all over again.
The only downside I see is overpowered lowlevels in the Ascalon/Yak's arenas. Then again I find those arenas a joke anyway so why bother.

Runners don't affect my game experience, so I don't care.
When I create a new char, I'm able to bring him to Thunderhead in 25/30 hours, playing all coops and side-quests with skill reward.
But if anyone is too bored/lazy to do it, no problem for me if he get a run. It's his money and his time.

Of course, I'm not gonna invite a lev 7 in Hell's Precipe.

And first chars should not be runned.

Chances are most first time players will never be able to afford a run anywhere. Most typically do not have 3K extra by the time they hit Beacons.

Anyway, how does this affect you at all. Someone is level 3 at THK. Big deal, it's not even that new anymore. They just want to hang out at Grotto with the other poseurs and preeners. I'd rather have them all there than anywhere else where I might see them brag about their l33tness.

That's one thing.

Example: A level 20 Elementalist Monk. They hire a runner to get them to the Temple of Ages. Why? They've never been to the Temple of Ages before. Why? It's too hard.

Now tell me why they are being run there? They're no good to any teams there, because obviously they don't have the skill to get there in the first place. This person is going to waste people's time and money in the Underworld and Fissure of Woe. It's no different than the higher level places in the game.

And these runners spam districts to offer their services.

What can they do about it? It's their way of making money, I don't know, it's not up to me. However it's hurting my play time and many others.

I personally will not be run anywhere by anybody for anything, even if it's free. Why? I've done it many times before, so why waste my time? To learn. To experience. To understand.

If two people join my team in Thunderhead Keep or Tombs or GvG and one of them says they have not been run anywhere with this character and done every mission and quest up to this point/in the game while the other says they were run there because they've played the game many times before with other characters and they've played PvP a few times with that setup, assuming they are not lying, I'll take the person who persisted over the person who got run there.

How are you supposed to understand how skills work and how to use them properly if someone is running between zones while you sit there and watch or have a coffee? How are you supposed to learn how to heal if there is no healing to be done? How are you supposed to learn how to interrupt if there is nothing to interrupt?

I am not against running personally, hell, I'd probably use it myself sometimes if this overuse wasn't the case. But when it has the potential and forfills that potential to hurt mine and other people's play time, that's where I draw the line. Because of that, as stated previously, I am boycotting running. I stick to what I 'believe' (term used loosely) and will hold firm on it regardless of who will stand with me, if any at all.

My main problem with them is that newbies grab runners because they don't know any better or because they've not yet learned the ropes (and by grabbing runners they never will). "Running for free" isn't help, it's spoiling the game for beginners. IMO. It doesn't help that it's much easier to find runners than to find a PUG to do a quest/mission/go to next town.
Nope, they hope to get Droknars armor and possibly some of the elites off the nearest bosses, after which the first 1/2 of the game is much, much, easier. (Not to mention the buttwipes who do this to dominate in the Ascalon and Yaks Bend arena. I've a ranger I'm taking through the game, and in every match in Yaks Bend there was at least couple of guys with elite skills & droks armor.)

That's the view of a PvE'er. For PvP'ers the PvE is mainly an annoyance they want to get through as quickly as possible, and cap the interesting skills they need for PvP. Although I don't really know why they don't just change secondary and cherry-pick the elites they want.

How are you supposed to know that the person you don't want to take can't play their character. Very foolish supposition.

And that there is the flaw which I pointed out. A runner either does it for fun or the money. Running can be benificial, but for the most part, it has been exactly the opposite. The runner can't know and considering level has nothing to do with your understanding of the game, the people who put them on their team later on can't know either.

It is a problem. It needs to be fixed. How, I do not know. My stance is only one of the solutions. As stated before, it's easier to be run somewhere than it is to find a group willing to do it properly.

My only concern with runners is that they make atrocious amount of money in not a lot of time.

Anet did everything they can to prevent players from farming, thus deniying people the way to make lot of money fast. Yet, they never did anything to prevent Droknar runners from becoming the richest players in the game... Go figure... Running people for money IS A METHOD OF FARMING

I don't have a problem with to possibility of making it to Droknar, but it should not be possible to run through it. You should have to fight your way there.

If I have the money, and have already ascended once, why can't I do this.

My opinion about runners is that those who have the money to be ran are generally on alts, and don't want to go through the tedium of the plotline again. Furthermore, they're just going to drok's to get their armor to play GW in easy mode, not to attempt skip everything. Remember, if missions are anything, it's 1 skill point and 2k experience.

I dont really care if they can play their charachter, if i have a the choice of taking a level 10 or 20 ill take the level 20.

Im going on the assumption that you are talking about people running second charachters as i dont think first timers should run.
I really think this is a matter of skill and running dosnt affect it, if i was changing my build i would first practice it and think about what skills i was going to use before i went into a mission. The problem as i see it is people just sticking to a build they think works, and not really making an effort to improve it.

My only problem with this is i do think they know better, i simply cant belive that people actually think that paying or getting a free run to somewhere is what was actually inteded for them to do, its a shortcut and they must know that.
As to finding runners easier than finding a pug to do the mission i agree partly, i had that with...

beacons perch
augury rock
amnoon oases
iron mines (if you wanted to fight and not rely on warriors running the "whole" way)

Look at it this way. Go to augury rock and just sit in the channel (not international district ). You will here dozens upon dozens of requests for and ads for runners. Yet you will hardly ever here a request for a group. In my mind, many people run, not just veterans. Besides, veterans should be good enough at this game to get to Elona's reach from Augury with henchmen. Frankly, running makes it so that people are no longer willing to actually play the game anymore. It's quite pathetic actually.

True. So, you can expect these people to get to know the skills, which set these people on par with the ones doing missions without the drognars armor.

So, the 'selection method' in the situation depicted by Sekkira is totally random. In fact, I would even go for the one who did the run and took quests for certain skills to complement his/her build. Why? Because this implies that this person actually was thinking about his/her build before entering the tombs. But again, this is all hypothetical, how do you call it theorycrafting? Better ask what skills they bring and why....

So what ARE the reasons for being run?

1. Getting droks armor and elite skills to dominate low level arena's
This is interfering with the enjoyment of others in a negative way and should be blocked/forbidden/frowned upon

2. Getting droks armor and elite skills to breeze through the missions and quests in easy mode.
This could influence the enjoyment of others in a negative way because the mission will be alot easier on the team. I think the person doing this should at least inform the team and let them decide if they will take him or not. If you do it with henchman you wil not interfere with the enjoyment of others and therefore i see no objection.

3. Skipping a part of the game because it is too difficult.
There could be several reasons for it ... be it not being able to find good enough team mates to do it, not being able to do it with hench, being a bad player yourself or some other reason. Continuing to try and fail does not nessicarily teach you to become a better player. Being in a group with a better player that takes the time to educate you will.
Now here we have a counterargument to the ppl saying they don't want these "bad" players in their group. Why not take some time and MAKE them better. Most ppl will listen to constuctive crtitisism.

4. Other reasons we have not thought of:

Like

Going to desert and through ascension without doing quests because you want to be able to switch to a secondary profession of your choice before taking these skill giving quests. This is what i am doing with the characters on my second account. They are all lvl 18-20 with just their pre-searing skills.


Conclusion

If it doesn't hurt other players you should be allowed to do whatever you like in this game. Just as IRL

The moment you influence the enjoyment of other players (positive AND negative) common sense should decide if it is allowable or not.


Shaquira

Agreed.

Shaqira you're right and clear.
I may add that I highly respect runners because you have to be really skilled to run successfully from, say, Beacon's PErch to Drok.
I am against being run for all the reasons said above.
Those who want to be run are mainly twinkers (I think but I have no statistics for it), for quests or arenas (faction farm) for me it's the same. I never saw a guy wanting to be run "for fun".
Worst, run people are skilless players. Especially run casters I may say, who were able to take by themselves with their big drok armor monsters on their own, and don't understand when their are in South Shiverpeaks or after why they can't tank all those monsters and why they should stay behind the warriors.

Although I find it difficult to estimate how bad it is to positively influence others (drogs armor, end-game skills in low lvl missions), I agree with the conclusion.

Close this thread now? Before it evolves into a discussion about whether or not runned players are better/worse than playing-mission players?

My thoughts,
I think Anet should have made armor with a char. level requirement. Only be able to equip lets say, Ascalon armor if you are at least level 5 or so and Forge/15k armor if you are level 20. That would cut back alot of running. Makes sence to me.

Might as well go with half the players in the party. Full parties are making it easier.

"Group LF 1 more"
Guy 1: "Me, I've got droks armor!"
Guy 2: "Me, I only have pre-searing armor/skills"
Leader: *Invites #2* "Yeah, we want the useless one. Otherwise it would be too easy, Eh!

If people's looking for difficulty, go grab henchies or a truly stupid PUG. Don't blame it on runners, seriously.

As long as people play GW, there will always be this debate for/against runners.

At the end of the day I don't see how runners affect those that are against running. I used to run a lot. Now I only run if either a friend asks me or if I get a pm from my customer base.

Each of us plays this game how he/she see fit and I think it's a little odd how some people seem to think that they have the right to tell people how to play.

It would be like me going up to somebody on the street and saying to them

"Hey there, why are you getting into that cab, you should really walk to your destination, that's what I do, so you must do the same"

hence:

"Oh sorry you must play the way I play and if you don't you ruin the game for me"???

Personally having finished the game many many times, having deleted chars, created new ones, finished game again and again I like to go through the game in different ways now.

For example:

The last char I created was a R/Me. I spent my time in pre (up to L9) then came into post. Got myself to Yaks and then got ran from there to Droks where I bought some better armour and then went back to Ascalon/Northern Shiverpeaks to complete all quests, missions etc For every character my strategy involves: go into area, kill all monsters, do all quests, open up map fully, then move onto next area. Sometimes I put all missions on my map but don't do them until much later (or when I feel like it) When I reached around L15 with this ranger, I decided to map Snake Dance, Dreadnoughts and Lornars which takes a while. (I always leave that till later, but decided to do it earlier)

So in essence have fun with the game, experiment, try different things, but leave all this pointless "You should play the way I play" where it belongs ... in the garbage.

My bit said.

Pyrea

I think that people who play the game the first time:

go play the whole game and not partially

I think people who already have finished the game, should play through the big parts at least.
If you don't want to do a mission like Frost Gate, ok, get a run to beacons. But dont go from beacons to Droknars.
If your first character was a monk, and you finished the game easily and you are very good. That doesn't mean you will be very good with a ranger/warrior/necro/ele/mesmer.

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

If you are playing for the first time, then the wise thing to do is to play the whole game out from start to finish as:

1. You learn how to play your char
2. Gain knowledge on the GW World
3. Get approx 75% of skills from completing quests
4. Find out lots of other cool things (list is endless)

But again this is just my opinion, not a law that must be obeyed!

One thing that I would love to see in GW is a GW Marathon where "running teams" start at Ascalon and have to get to say Droks or Denravi. Just a thought

To all the complainers about ANET not nerfing running. You can stop now. ANET is making Lornar's Pass harder and harder with each update. Now only really skilled runners can do it consistently. Most runners spamming beacons are scammers. So don't think runners got it easy still.

Agreed.

Although I understand the reasons for having a character run for armor (when you're on a third or fourth char, who really wants to play through the whole game again to get good armor?), the Beacon's --> Drok run is essentially the same as farming.

Sure, there's no killing for drops, but when you consider...

1) It involves somebody (the runner) essentially going solo through an end-game area and
2) It allows somebody (the runner) to generate an inordinate amount of gold in a very short time.

IMO, It sounds eerily similar to the reasons why ANet has said they're against solo farmers in end-game areas.

Looking at the comments from ANet, Mike O'Brien stated:

Taken from a Fansite Friday interview:

http://www.guildwars.com/community/f...-friday61.html

Taking a party of 5 on a half-hour Drok run at 3k each generates a potential 30k per hour for the runner...and I can't think of any parallels to that kind of earning potential other than a few lucky UW solo farming runs.

Gaile Gray has stated:

Taken from these very boards:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=401

Sure, you could argue that runners aren't "playing" the highest-end content - they're just running through it - but that's really splitting hairs.

Now, before the flames start...

I'm not complaining about anything or anybody, just stating my thoughts. Yes, it takes skill to be a good runner (or a thread about a good build and some practice), but the same applies to solo farming.

I personally have nothing against runners - I've used their services myself on alt chars when I didn't feel like playing through the entire game just to get Drok armor. These alt chars typically went on to play through most of the game with henchies, just to get it done and on to the end-game content.

I also have nothing against farmers - I think everybody's done some farming in GW.

Before somebody feels the need to tell me that ANet has said they have nothing against runners but something against solo farmers, I've already heard that point. I just don't understand the distinction between the two.

Maybe if somebody from ANet reads this, they could clarify this for me?

Just to put some things right:

-You can't do a Droknars run with more than 5 'clients'.
-In Europe at least, prices are between 1.5K and 2.5K maximum.
-Have you ever stood for 10 minutes in Beacons? making a 6-man group as a runner would take you some time I think.
-Once in a while there are people who don't pay (the full amount).

This isn't to say you are wrong so a 'noob', this is just to show you that you might be looking at it a little too nice for runners.


I agree, I have tried doing a run with another lvl 20 guildie of mine, and neither of us made it to the first portal.

As the head of the Runners Academy and the elite runners of Guild Wars, may I add my perspective to the ancient debate?

Running provides people a way to maximize the use of your time. Everyone is a winner when it is done right. I have beaten the game start to finish with the four characters on my primary account, doing every single mission and quest. I can get anywhere in the game with henchmen regardless of the profession I am playing. But to take new characters to level 20 and ascended and through the entire game with henchmen or even awful PUGs I will never die (none of it is "hard") but it will take me literally weeks of very frequent play. And it proves nothing just redoing what I have done four times so that I can try the last two primary professions in the Underworld. Why go through that? In one afternoon with a few guildmates I can have a couple of new perfectly equipped, ascended, and level 20 role playing characters of new professions with the elite skills and ready to tackle PvP, UW, SF, and FoW. Doesn't that make sense? It does for me.

Twinkies in Ascalon arena is not a runners fault. Blame that on Anet laziness or unwillingness to fix the glaring problems that have existed since release.

It is my opinion that runners not only contribute to the problem with lowbies in high level places, not only contribute to twinks being in the Asc arena but also contribute to the economic woes with thier huge amounts of personal wealth. Running is the most profitable way to make money in this game. Runners make far more money than farmers do. To them money is no object & as such drive up prices of items.

Oh brother. That is so completely stupid, it's barely even worth a reply.

Go look through the sell forum, especially months old threads. The people that paid the rediculously high prices were the farmers that exploited UW during the 5 ecto every run period. The average prices on everyday perfect items hasn't gone up much at all. The whole "runners drive up the prices" is as misinformed as it was when the popular theory was "farmers drive up the prices".

Not to mention that the typical runner does not make scads of cash. Tell me how many of the runners in Augury are running for tips or 300 per destination are making millions?

It is not the runners fualt it is the person who got ran there and they should know better to fight in the Ascalon Arena with Forge Armor on if not they are wimps and have no skill as to play in the arena.When they get past 15 thet better start learning or they will always get owned and they maybe the ones that leave in the LA comp arenas.It is also the Guild leader responsiblty if this person is in guild.

Running isn't actually that great a way of making money compared to regular farming. Let's say you make 15k (5x3k) for a droknar run, the time it takes to get a full group and do the run itself you can farm more gold in that time (assuming you know how and where, usual places). Desert runs are even less profitable to get a full group and do the runs, I timed those and it's just not worth it if you're after gold.

Single biggest reason (for me anyway and probably quite a lot of people) to get run to places - already played through most of the game at least once and it gets repetitive doing things all over again.

Ahem. Then please tell me why I can't even pay for Droknar armour?

Agreed also. Thats my viewpoint on running. Though its a good way to earn money and assist some noobs, if it has too negative of an impact, it should be ruled allowable or not. My character I remember being ran to Grendich Courthhouse, but for free. Also, in certain cases, the only good runner is a free runner, cause the prices offered to some people are ridiculous. Cmon people, the noobs are people, they have SOME common sense too...really...

running is a double edged sword.

for people that have never been through game it makes it harder to find people that want to fight to the next town. you must then go to the henches instead of a pug. that will make for a rather boring pve experience.

on the other hand other people that have gone through the game before don't have to take the mass amounts of time to fight through the game to get their next character to the good parts.

i'm on my 7th pve character. my first character was a monk and it took me a week to get through the game the first time. monk is probly the fastest with pugs and henches so i could imagine other classes. took about 2 weeks with my warrior.

you get through the content you have been through time and time again very fast, but other's that have never been there have to mostly rely on henches if they want to fight. some do run through the game and have never played through it. that makes for horrible pugs later on in the game when henches are not an option.

for the most part it doesn't hurt the game. still the fastest way to make money and alot of competition are driving down the price of runs.

You cant blame the runner for doing something that is totally legit. As for the twinks, YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE. There is nothing you can do to stop them from being the way they are. If you close Lornars Pass, they will just run to the desert and use desert armor instead. Does a 40-50 armor difference total really change anything? The guy is a twink either way to prey on new guys with a (not really huge) advantage. As for lowbies in high level areas..umm who the hell cares. I wont invite anyone under 20 in any mission past dragons lair. I dont really know anyone would. So, how exactly does this affect anyone at all? Whats the worse that can happen..they spam the channel asking for gold IF they are new players. My friend started this game about 2 weeks ago and i ran him through the entire game just to prepare one of his characters for pvp. He has been in random arenas for over 2 weeks now and i think hes doing great. PVE and PVP are two seperate entities and while you can learn some things in PVE id say its VERY limited. This game isnt rocket science people. A good week or two in randoms and you learn very well how to play this game..at the minor cost of being a total noob at the beginning and your team cursing you for being clueless. Who cares its random arenas. If anything you should blame Anet for not making an arena that only someone with a newly started account can get into. For example if your account is under 20 hours you have the right to participate in "so and so" arena. That would keep the pros out and the twinks who usually played the game once through most likely wont be able to get in.