Runners: the debate

1. Random Arena isn't a show of skill.

2. Good job on the running thing.

3. Harsh example: Call Runners Dealers and call the people that get run Addicts. Dealers aren't the cause of the problem, they didn't get the addicts on to drugs, they just provide them. However, you can't say they don't contribute to the problem. On top of that, not all addicts effect society in a negetive way. There's a load of them that do though.

When you end up with people who've been run places and have no idea how to play the game, you'll get angry people who get these people on the team and not realise their mistake until their time and or money has been wasted. Who is to blame? Surely the person who doesn't know how to play, maybe they should have learned how to then. But then again, they didn't run themselves to a high level place.

It's the combination of people no knowing how to play the game and runners spamming their low or free services to get these people through the game with money instead of their own skill which is the problem.

You want to be run somewhere because it's tedius doing otherwise and you want to get to the fun par, that's fine by me. If you want to be run somewhere because you can't get there any other way, you are a problem and the runners are screwing over the rest of the community by letting them pass on like a cheat code to a video game because it's 'too hard'.

I didn't like it when my lvl 14 warrior fought against another below lvl 15 ranger and lost because he had an elite skill/good armors.
But then the first time I went to Augury rocks I was so overwhelmed w/ the ascendsion thing; I didn't know where to go, I didn't know what to do. I probably would've stopped playing GW. But then I got a runner to the posts/towns and he told me what I was supposed to do/where. That was a BIG help.
there are pro's and con's, but in Augury at least there should be runners. First time player without a close friend/guild partners, and first time players usually don't, they need help on the three missions. If not the missions themselves then at least knowing what they need to do to progress. Of course I don't really care that much about running in the first place. Heck, I might start a runner.
More important issue is the pricing. When I go to Drok's forge nowdays the prices on items hover above me....a green staff for 100k? without farming/running there's really no way a person can afford a decent gear, even if it's not 100k but 10k. Unless they farm for themselves, and that's why a lot of people run. If you can't beat the system, might as well join it. And running's less degrading than buying money online IMO.

The only downside to running that I have personally encountered involved my very brief foray into the arenas of Guild Wars. I took my lv14 [I think] ranger into the arena at Yak's Bend, hoping to try out the pvp aspect and have a little fun. Instead I got crushed by some random opposing players with an Elite and their Drok's armor. It personally spoiled the fun of the pvp for me quite a bit, but then I figured that low-level arenas on role-playing characters don't really matter much in the long run anyway. I think it is annoying to be so heinously outmatched simply because another player skipped ahead a bit, but it certainly didn't ruin the game for me.

The upside to running, for me, is that when I did it for my Mesmer [fifth character through the game if any detractors are wondering] I was able to bypass the process of upgrading my armor throughout the gaming experience. I made my way to becon's perch of my own accord, hiding behind allies and sticking with my pre-searing 7a set. Then I had someone run me to Drok's so that I could just spend the money once and have my armor, so as to avoid all that time spent farming. Is that cheating or ruining the game for me? I don't know. I don't see it that way. It just saved me time doing repetetive tasks like farming which, since I don't have a W/Mo handy, takes quite awhile with the paltry 1.5k area rewards for places like Scoundrel's Rise.

The second upside of running, for me, was that I later converted my R/W into a runner. I can't run people to Drok's, of course, but the prospect of learning how to run to and fro in other areas has added a lot of fun and interest to the game in the times when I simply am not interested in going through the RP quests one more time.

I guess it might be something that a lot of people look down on. But I think that running adds a very interesting dynamic to Guild Wars and I am happy that they aren't trying to take it out right now.

While there are some compelling arguments for running characters, I still simply do not agree with it. Playing the game through, getting the different armor isn't that hard. Anyone who spends the minimal amount of time can have decent weapons. Gold I've found is very easy to get especially when you don't spend it on things like runners. Aside from that you don't need much.

Sometimes I have to do a double take when I read things like 'bypassing the upgrade proccess' seems to me that's part of the game. I've never had a problem upgrading I can't figure out why it is such a burden.

I do find it good that people have found ways to run through areas, but there has got to be a better way than dragging others through...

sigh...ah well

I love runners!!!

I have used a runner on three (3) occasions the first was to get my 60 Drocks armour on my 2nd Character, this was a team practice runs at no price.

The second run was from Augury Rock to Dunes of Despair. I spent 30 min and still could not get a group together (seems like no one want’s to do the desert missions) so I ran all the way from Augury rock down through Prophets path died, passed the valture drifts, died.

Restart went into the dunes of despair then into the Arid sea area died.
Died.

Restarted the game from Augury and got all the way to Arid sea, realised I went to far and backtracked, Died

Restart the game got to Dunes, went the wrong way ended up at the cliffs above the target died.

I decided to try and form a team so i returned to Augury rock.
After 30 min looking for a group I just took the NPC players.

Died again and again, restarted (died) (dIED) (DIED) HIT THE COMPUTER, RAN DOWN THE STREET RIPPING HAIR OUT, cried, SCREAMED hit the computer and mouse then blamed the tools for my bad playing.

went out for a 10min timeout.

When I was again calm I decided that the 2hrs was waisted and decided to move on to Tirsty River

While in town looking for a group to join again 30min (I could not get a group to take my Lv 20 Monk / War) I read an advertisement for a runner going to Tirsty River for just 500g The runner was so nice that after the run I payed 1000g

The last one was from Augury Rock to the evil Dunes again the same runner who ran me from Augury rocks offered to take me free to Dunes free as he could tell I was frustrated.

He left Augury with just me, he could have put a team together and collected 2000 gold but he did not want any money (such a nice boy) and preceded to run me most of the way before an unexpected problem he died, we restarted and got me to Dunes no prob. I was so relieved that I gave the runner 3000G just for being so supportive, well worth it for all the stress that he saved me from.

I dislike runners and running and will not do it myself. But that is because I enjoy playing this game so much, I don't mind redoing all the quests and missions.

Anet has taken large pains to maintain the balance in this game. But despite the fact that it is possible to stop runners and running (e.g. enforcing level limits on armor and weapons, enforcing that you need to complete certain quests and missions before you can enter a later quest and mission), they have chosen not to. They must have some reason for this.

So the only thing that I can do is simply not party with someone who obviously has been run. This means that I do the lower level quests mostly with henchies and friends, and I won't party with anyone in the higher level parts of the game who are themselves at such a low level that they must have been run. Like, for example, a level 10 waiting for the Elona Reach mission wouldn't get into my party.

I guess it has its uses, it's just annoying when you are in Southern Shiverpeaks (the long way) doing a mission and one of the guys started asking what we meant by "cap signet" for Markis to get barrage and when we asked if he'd ascende he saud "huh?". Look again, doh, he's lvl 14 (didn't notice that). The guy was run to Droks, and by sheer luck leached his way in PuG groups through the missions, the whole time he was confused why story jumped, and why all of a sudden everyone is lvl 20 and the mobs are a lot stronger. He didn't even know he missed out more than half the game. We took him back to Beacon's and poined him in the right direction.

OMG, i never knew people could actually be that thick.....

Take a trip to beacons and look what's in the local chat.

Take a wild guess what they're doing instead.

Oh hell yes. I've found myself in a team at Lions Arch with an ele who didn't know how to target enemies (!!!), and I've had to explain to people past droknar why some weapons have different color, and that you can not wear the armors that drop (!!!).

I don't know if they'd stumbled along or got carried by other players, but they were as fresh as a first-day pre-sear virgin even though halfway through the game. They weren't too bad once I'd given them a crash course in PvE, though.

Still, I like this game, and I feel sortof sorry for them that they've missed out by being run/carried.

Oh! I know! I know! Ask me! me! I know! *waves hand frantically*

Personally, I think that we should stop having these threads.

Why? Because no-one is going to change their minds about it, so it's just pointless bickering, covering the same justifications over and over again.

In favor of running? You won't suddenly become anti-runner just because of what someone else says.

Against running? You won't suddenly become pro-runner just because of what someone has to say.

This arguemnt is as tired and played out as the debate over abortion - neither side is going to change their point of view, and it's pretty unlikely that the practice of it will ever go away. So why bother anymore?

I think it's alright to get some runs but they shouldn't like take you all the way accross the map. it's alright for a noob to get like a run to piken,sardelac,and grendich but runs like droks and LA i thonk anren't very fair

I can't remember where I read it, but there was someone who proposed to close the exit to lornar's pass in beacons to non-ascended players. This would finish droknar-running once and for all. Having droksarmor and elites before the desertmissions is cheating the game in a way. It's still easier for second or third chars to play the game cause of storageaccount. You can wield a max dam weapon being lvl 7 by putting it in your storage with your lvl 20 char. It took my second char (me/mo) 3 days to get to droknar playing all coops and sidequests using Korvald's (green) items. Getting a run doesn't save u so much time, especially not if you're in a helpfull guild. Your guildmates can rush you through all ascelon missions and beyond in no time. I can't think of any reason why you should get a run to droknar, it hardly changes anything. Nerf droknar-running, that's what I think.

I've never understood why people think that running amounts to cheating.

Since it's possible to do, it's part of the game universe.

Think of it this way, if - in the real world - you can think of a legal but unique way to market a product it isn't cheating, it's being innovative.

The people who can look at the world - whether it's in a game or in your neighborhood at home - and find ways to profit are being creative.

There's no cheating involved in running. It takes advantage of how characters work when equipped with certain skills that are made available by the game.

None of this means that you have to be a runner, or that you have to use them. All I'm saying is that its a part of the game that's made possible by the skill sets available and the way that a character can use these skills in the environment created by the developers.

5. reasons for hiring runners

1.player is realy lazy
2.player is making a monk/w farmer so dont need to lvl much
3.player wants droknars armor to make the game to easy for him (puff)
4.player is to lazy to do a certain mission
5.player just wants to be stand out in the end areas of the game (loser)

well thats all i got to say.......

What a one sided post you made there how about

6. player is bored of jungle missions but loves the desert /skip
7. player only wants unlocks for pvp, who cares about the story?
8. player wants to get to sorrows (for instance), and wants to get there quick

As to no.8

Why fight there, what possible benifit is there other than drops (which suck). This may or may not be my opionon, but it is others, Just because you may enjoy it dosnt mean everyone will.
thats why i like running, its one of the things that lets you play how YOU want to play.

I could think of more but you get the point.


i bet you call people noob when they disagree dont you.

I'd like to share my point of view. No more or less than that. I probably wont touch on everything brought up in the topic, as it got rather broad, nor would I even begin to try and change anyone else's opinion.

Running is a service for those who havent either the time or the inclination to get from one particular location to another. Its largely for those who have already completed the game at least once, so these players know already how to get from any one location to any other, should they further develop the character and play in some more linear fashion.

Being a service, such as it is in the real world, one pays for quality and experience, has the ability to shop around, and also has the ability to not seek the service at all.

Players on their first time through should ideally not get run anywhere. This is why I frown on free runs and do not offer them. The lack of a free run filters the majority of these players. The great majority of low level players in the game at this point in time are 3rd and 4th characters and are therefore pretty well funded, being able to make their own choice on how they wish to advance additional characters.

Since players that do get run are almost always trying to put a second, third, fourth, eighth character on a faster development track and almost always finish the development of the character off with friends and/or guildies in my experience, it has little impact on mission areas. If one finds this not to be the case, they can choose not to invite a character lower level than they feel can contribute for the particular mission. I've had level 12's be great team members in S. Shiverpeaks missions while level 20's have failed in the same regard though, so skill is of course not level dependent.

Quality of PUG play is pretty spotty. Its possible to get most of the way through the game and still not be aware of some of the basics of play, builds and strategy. Experienced players dont go back to replay missions often, those who do usually dont play in PUGs, and those who do usually lack the patience to make an effort to help a new player advance in strategy and understanding. Goes both ways though. Some inexperienced players also simply do not listen to advice. Running isnt at fault here. For lack of a better way to put it, its a part of the game culture.

Finally, as regards the low level arenas. They are what they are now and have been that way a long time. Its unfortunate, but this was an issue three months ago or more, and wasnt addressed then. Its gone beyond being a running issue now. It should either be left as it is, or skills and armor deemed unacceptible for a given arena should simply be greyed out and unusable. End of problem.

The fact that things are possible doesn't mean that it's a good thing to do. It's also possible to rob a shop, everyone knows it's a bad thing to do so you don't. (at least I hope )

Agreed. I think it's a good debate, but I would guess nothing would ever change. Even if Anet decided that running is bad, it's too ingrained on the community for them to take it out....and I think running is very bad.
I wouldn't go as far as saying that these topics should stop though.

I do think it's a shame that I have to turn off my chat when I go into towns, or if I want to take a low level character into an arena it's completely unevenly matched...but hey it's just a game. Atleast I don't have to worry about getting scammed. There are plenty of other games I can play that offer a better interactive community, so I can jump on GW relatively worry free.

I completely agree. That's why the next paragraph in that note made the point that it should be legal. I said:

Think of it this way, if - in the real world - you can think of a legal but unique way to market a product it isn't cheating, it's being innovative

(edit added)

By the way, since this is the day after a big holiday, a lot of people took the day off. I'm sitting in a nearly-empty newsroom with time on my hands (which is OK with me) ... but that's why I'm posting so much today.

Robbing a shop in RL is illegal ..... running in GW isn't!

Running is nothing more than just another way to play the game. Some people farm, some run, some only PvP, some only PvE, some only participate in FoW/UW runs, some sell their services to get a client to the Forge Master for FoW armor or through the desert missions to speed up ascension and some....(insert activity here). We all purchased this game to be entertained, and for the million games sold, there are a million ways to be entertained. For a while my Ele gave everything she found away at the Great Northern Wall, and would run the recipient of the item for free through the mission. My W/Mo farms to make money for the other seven characters I have and my lowly lvl 7 Necro just runs around outside AC when I get bored.

Running is not bad. It is just another way to enjoy the game...until they nerf it...

Agreed, although you can say that about anything...doesn't necessarily make it right or wrong.
I'm sure that buying gold outside the game for some is 'just the way they play the game'.

I do have my misgivings about purchasing gold with real-world dollars. I'm no expert on the EULA, but I've read that buying is not against the rules, but selling is. I can't say that I honestly know, but I am against it. There are those who have honestly earned the 500k they spent on a "perfect" fellblade and then there are those who have not. I can't believe that having so much money floating around has not negatively affected the economy at least in some small measure.

Put simply, if it can be done entirely in-game, then it legal and does count as another way of playing the game....buying gold on E-Bay can not be done in-game...therefore its a no-no...regardless of the EULA.

No, I agree I believe it's against the EULA. I was just illustrating the point that people can rationalize anyway they want. If one played EQ2, they have a service for buying stuff outside the game. I am against that, but for some people that's the way they play.

Putting in running (not the running but the fact you can drag anyone through) was a mistake, that's my opinion. I will speak out against it but I have to live with it if I wanna play GW.

BTW cool avatar pic.

Oingo Boingo...one of the best groups ever...Danny Elfman is a genius. Not cover art, just an old logo.

Maybe it is time to cut down on it for a while as it is hard for Warrior to get picked in missions.

There are two different aspects here: good/bad and legal/illegal.

Since we have accepted real world examples, lets look at free speech. Most of here accept that this should be legal, however good or bad? Well, free speech covers someone asking for money and feeding homeless people (good), it also covers the KKK member calling minorities inferior (bad). You can't have legal free speech without allowing both - it's regulated if you start regulating it and no longer free.

To some extent running seems to be that way. Running a new player to droks to get the best aromor to "own" in the ascalon arena is bad. However running a player who has had five chars beat the game but wants to unlock a few skills id good. Thus we find running to be legal, but both good and bad, like speech. In this case there could even be the neutral case of a single player only (henchies) wanting to make the game easier (there are many of us, though I will not run a char ahead of one that made it there in the normal means). Yes, it changes the game, but "ruin" in single player only games is in the eye of the beholder. I've had as much fun as my w/mo that was run to droks as my mo/me that made it there by normal means.

The question is if the bad is so bad that you screw the good players, in speech that happens in cases such as yelling "fire" in a theatre. Personally I would say no, plus for most of the bad of running there are other fixes (such as not allowing droks armor in low level arena's). You just need to pay attention - if you make the litmus test "things the majority do not want to do" then most likely something you like will get removed and you will have noone to blame but yourself, once you agree that regulating actions that are "good", a "good" action you do will be regulated. That's why a fairly free system has the most people happy.

i talked to someone that has a running only character and she told me she makes about 150k a night if not more, i was shocked then asked her if she was a famer =X that didnt go to well in fact, she said she uses the gold to help out guildies with weapons/armor and stuff.... hey i got ran to some places, droks(spelling?), the dessert and plenty of other places, and didnt pay a dime. ^^ my guild is full of awsome people who are very helpful, and understanding to nooblets like me who have been playing GW for about 15-20days so far =P when i was runned to droks there was one other person in guild that needed an alt to get there to so we all (maxed party) ran there....well i was on the snowy ground sun bathing most of the time but it was fun. if u want to spend the gold to get somewhere go ahead ....i just wouldnt pay in full up front. ive already heard of people getting "scammed " and stuff trying to buy their way into being runned into new towns and such .....but play at ur own risk. if u get scammed , thats ur dam fault =P maybe u should ask a guildie to help u get runned there instead of paying someone^^ ne one need a n/me runner? lol jk! gop FTW!

Then im a big ''LAMER'' i did my first char normal but after the running PLAGUE started!!

The problem is not the players/runners but the game itself. I just ascended a new character, a mesmer. It is my sixth or seventh (I have a second account) and I let it partially run to some towns. I fought f.i. from Maguuma Oasis to Augury Rock, but after that somebody ran me. I'm not going to fight my butt again through all the missions and quests; the Chrystall dessert is walking, fighting, walking, fighting etc. I have done that twice; I have seen it. I haven't paid. I have a game-friend and we run each others characters to some towns.
The problem is that it is easier to find a runner than a serious group who will set out to a new town or outpost.
Suggestion? Less monsters and mobs and more smaller side-quests with good droppings, so you can, whatever build you have, move from a to b, But to use your fighting skills and gain XP, you have to form a group to hunt for a mob.

I agree, the game shouldn't allow people at any level to be dragged through

But isn't that the gameplay?

If there wasn't people running, would there not be more people willing to group in these areas? Maybe that's the problem.

I agree somewhat, my suggestions would be level restricted armor (to stop lowbies from running), and maybe a character class that can help a character get through tough area's..... maybe someone that can render the group invisable or mask thier scent. The success rate would be varied so maybe you'd still have an encounter to make it atleast challenging. Dragging people through as it is now seems rather sloppy and more of an exploit than part of the gameplay. Atleast we can come to some halfweay point that will make both the runners/ anti-runners happy.

lol you copied my idea of a debate

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=82375

I'm neutral on running. I don't really care if there is some lvl 8 noob in The Ring of Fire as long as hes not in my group. Then again if they make a large group of griffons to block runners I won't mind it .

Now for a point of view from a runner:

1-I started running after the patch when farming became less "productive" but I still farm occasionally. I enjoy running, and learning all the areas to be run is a skill in itself and takes time to learn and once learned takes time to do-this is why I charge. I do not scam but know of others that do and have had it happen to me-not only as a runner, but while being run. You roll the dice-you take your chances.

2- I do not make "inordinate amounts of money"-mainly because most people being run are in a hurry to get to where they want to go and will not wait for a full party. If I make them wait, there are usually enough runners to take them right away. In addition, the amount of runners running cheaper, for tips or for free knocks down my asking price. I take whom I can get when I can get them.

3- I do not agree with running noobs so I keep my prices high and that does "filter" somewhat- but there's still no guarantees. People lie,like it or not and you can't "eyeball" who your client is in the chat areas.

4- Running someone from Ascalon to Lion's Arch for 3K (which takes about an hour by the way) is no more a ripoff than finding a Tanzit's Cleaver on a drop and selling it for 50K. No matter how you make your money in GW, it's all based on supply and demand (as in real life) and the basis is greed and capitalism(shudder).

The bottom line is-why the debate? No matter what the topic in this game, there are good and bad points to it. If you don't like it-don't do it. Just because some noob bought his money and paid for the run to Drok's and bought his or her armor and is a level 3-doesn't mean you have to add them to your party. Eventually they have no recourse and go back to leveling the right way, armor or not.

Because that's why god gave us forums

You bring up some good points. I didn't quote them all because of space, but although I disagree with running people through you are right that you can ignore it all. This is coming from someone who plays mostly solo on occation though, as I have given up expecting this is going to be a MMO with any sort of depth or goals.

I don't think that those who are paying for their runs are passing any areas they haven't played before on another character. After all, where do they get the money to pay, then?

Ebay, IGE, Guild...ect ect. Plus there are those who do it for free,

Yes, and I assume those who are playing their first time through know the locations that the runners are advertising. [/sarcasm]