A star just fell in lament for all eles...

"Never ending interrupts" are only effective in shutting the elementalist down because many of their heaviest hitters have such long recharges. Fix that, not the damage.

Wuh? 5+8 = 13 secs recharge. And a 200 damage hit is more than a "threat".

You can put a ranger in that elementalists face and totally stop him from using orb everytime he tries to cast. But you're essentially trading one character for the other, so apart from the damage you're doing with savage shot it's not really an advantage. And while you can quite easily have 5 or more elementalists on the other team spiking with orb you can't practically take more than 2 or 3 interrupters on your team to stop them. Furthermore air has BF, good luck stopping an orb spike with physical interrupts when you have that many opponents equipped with blind.

IMO huge blanket changes to the class like ES adding % damage are a bad idea. What's needed is careful skill tweaks to go through and make sure spells are costed appropriately in terms of costs, recharges, and casting times.

Since fire needs the most work, I'm going to post a list of changes to the fire line, with fireball as my gold standard:

Incendiary Bonds: Cost reduced to 10, AoE increased to "nearby".

Currently compared to fireball this costs 50% more, has more than twice the recharge, and is a delayed impact with a very visible animation (thereby allowing enemies to run before it triggers). The only reason people take this is because there aren't any other half-decent nukes in the fire line besides Fireball and RI.

Firestorm. Damage increased to 5...35 (in line with the other DoTs). Recharge reduced to 10 secs.

Pitiful AoE and horrible recharge make this a nonstarter in pretty much any situation. Now it should be useful to at least force people to move.

Breath of Fire: Recharge reduced to 10 seconds.

See a trend here? The DoT spells are potentially interesting because they have an "area control" mechanic, but in practice it never works because the recharges are too long. My intent is to allow you to harass people with these spells, much like a warrior can stop people from casting by forcing them to kite. If they move, great, they aren't doing anything. If they don't, even better! They're being roasted, putting tremendous pressure on enemy monks.

Searing Heat: Increase burn duration to 1...5 secs. Increase AoE to "in the area". Decrease recharge to 25secs.

This is meant to be another, "if you don't move, you die" spells but it's not very scary. Above changes would force people to move the instant it started up, or eat the full damage and the 5 sec burn at the end. Should be great for forcing people out of wards.

Meteor: Increase AoE to "nearby". Reduce recharge to 20secs.

A strong effect (heavy hit + KD), completely neutered by the horrid recharge and crap AoE.

Meteor Shower: Increase AoE to "nearby". First hit arrives at 2 seconds. Add another hit at the very end.

This skill is almost totally pointless in PvP since people can just run out before the first meteor lands. The above changes would allow it to trap an unaware opponent, but would allow present-minded foes to escape easily.

Rodgort's Invocation: Increase AoE to "in the area".

It's a damage skill that costs 25E. The above change would actually make it 25E worth of "scary".

Immolate: Increase burning to 1...5 seconds.

Immolate is one of those skills that you use because you have to, because there's no other alternative. The idea is to make this a good semi-spammable skill to squeeze out some pressure while your big guns are recharging.

Flame Burst: Remove the retarded PbAoE aftercast.

This skill is almost perfect. It hits an area roughly 1.5x the size of fireball, and costs 50% more. It casts much faster and has a faster recharge, but is PbAoE. The only thing that needs doing is removing the horrendous lag after it completes.

Inferno: Remove PbAoE aftercast. Reduce recharge to 10 seconds. Increase AoE to "nearby".

Terrible recharge makes this very unappealing. The above change would make inferno a cheaper, heavier hitting flame burst with twice the recharge, a fair tradeoff IMO.

Lava Font: Increase recharge to 6 secs. Increase duration to 8 seconds. Increase AoE to "nearby".

This is an interesting skill. I can see where A.net was going with this, sort of a mobile area denial (a fire elementalist's offensive counterpart to a ward), but:

a) "Adjacent" range is pitiful. I'm going to deny you the three foot circle around myself? BFD.

b) It doesn't last long enough. I don't want to have to spend all my time casting 2s lava fonts.

Mark of Rodgort: Reduce cost to 15.

This skill has been through 3 buffs, but no one uses it. On paper the 25E cost is compensated by the long duration. But fire doesn't have any cover hexes and in practice it will never last that long vs a team with hex removal. So in any sort of organized setting the duration change doesn't really accomplish anything. Putting it at 15E would mean that even if it does get removed, you're still getting a healthy amount of damage from it. It also makes it semi spammable with good e-management, enough so you could incorporate it into a hex stacking team build or some such.

Star Burst{E}: Reduce recharge to 5 seconds. Add "target touched foe is set on fire for 1...5 seconds".

This skill is currently too weak in comparison to flame burst. Since it's an elite you have to forego elite energy management which is a huge sacrifice.

Double Dragon{E}: Remove exhaustion. Reduce recharge to 15 seconds.

I don't think I need to go into why this is a horrible elite...

Mind Burn{E}: Remove exhaustion. Reduce cost to 10.

You can't get any decent pressure out of this because of the cost and exhaustion (remember, no elite energy management!), and the damage is mostly conditional. That needs changing.

Now I'm sure there are skills I missed, but the above list is should provide a pretty good base for people to build a decent variety of effective fire elementalists. I tried to stay away from damage buffs, and focused more on making these skills attractive in other ways.

whel, i agree with you people play an ele not so much anymore, only pvp, but i still play on my elle, becouse i love it, you just have to wait a bit, and with high energy and the right skils you can kill your enemy in no time, and thats what i like about it, and most of the players are dieing to get a "good" build, like tanks or elle's who dont even use elle skils exept energy storage, or elle's who rais there armor with earth magic, and thats what i hate, my build for a elle is very simple and you dont have to think about it, and its fun to play, and what i'm trying to say is: dont think to much about your build, its all about the fun its just a game, even if you like elle or not, i continue with the elle

You need some directions urgently:

Distracting Shot
Energy Cost: 5
Casting Time: 0.50
Recharge Time: 10.00
Description: If Distracting Shot hits, it interrupts target foe's action but deals only 1..13..17 damage. If the interrupted action was a skill, that skill is disabled for an additional 20 seconds.

5+20=25

Its clear that your guild is not "Your math teacher".

I can see, sadly, that you dont hear others opinions and you are just "married" with your ideas. Nevertheless nice ideas on the fire line, i agree on the biggest part of the changes: AoE speels need an urgent buff on cost-cast-recharge-area and the damage elites with exhaustion are useless, but Starburst only needs 5 secs recharge in order to compete with Flameburst, not set on fire.

I was in a hurry and misread your post as saying distracting shot disabled for 8 seconds. I didn't bother to check the skill description on guildwiki.

Now do you have anything substantive to contribute, or are you going to continue being an ass?

Lol, I didn't make a mathematical error, I just didn't read the skill description. Of course to an idiot looking for a snappy comeback the two would be one and the same.

Ok, I'm tired of this bullshit. I have read every substantive suggestion made on this thread. Just because I don't agree with your ES change doesn't mean I didn't read it, it means I disagree, and I've given specific reasons why. You need to get used to the idea that opinions differ and not throw a hissy fit over it.

Global changes are bad. You avoid them unless absolutely necessary, because they're often a balance nightmare. If you change ES, and then have to rebalance the skills anyway to compensate, what's the point? What did you achieve besides giving yourself a bigger headache?

Starburst was the one skill I thought I might have overbuffed. My one concern is that flameburst would completely outdo it given you can pay the cost. I'm not sure how to go with this one though.

For me global changes are "absolutely necessary" if the elementalist is meant to be a damage dealer, but if they are meant for support i agree that drastical changes are not necessary but some slight makeup here and there.

BTW i do not complain that you dont agree with me, i complain about your cromagnon diplomacy. I love to hear people and change my mind with better ideas than mine, and i appreciate above all tolerance and respect, and you seem to lack badly of those two.

Everything you can achieve with a global change, you can achieve with skill tweaks. In most cases, the actual damage of the skills don't need changing (they're quite high already). 90% of the problem is that recharges are so high, so you spend a lot of time twiddling your thumbs.

I'm blunt. If I think an idea is bad, I'm going to say it, and why I think that way. If you think a suggestion I've put forth is stupid, by all means say so, but make sure to explain why.

Symbol is it really hard to understand that theres a hell of difference between "you are an ass, an idiot because..." and "that is a very bad idea because..." ? Critizise the ideas, not the person, thats what i ask of you.

I love people that say what they think without hesitating but even though theres a lot of space between "oh i think this" and "how should i say this in order to be understood". All my posts are always edited because i try to be as clear as i can and as objective and not offensive as possible. Corrections do not mean lack of spontaneity or sincerity but a commitment with others to express your idea as simple as possible.

Yes there is a difference. One is a personal attack, the other isn't. I don't recall saying anything like the former to you, and as for others-I respond to (in)civility in kind. You can't very well expect politeness when you're acting like a churl, now can you?

My own policy is to avoid making things personal unless provoked. But if people take calling their idea "bad/stupid/horrible" (when I think that the idea is indeed bad ior stupid or horrible) as an insult, that's not my problem, frankly. Attacking ideas is fine in my book. The good ones will survive the criticism, the bad ones will not, and isn't that the whole point?

Anyway, this is offtopic and will be my last post on this matter. If you want to continue discussing my posting style, you can PM me or take it to the mods if it bothers you that much.

Avatar Of Grenth only removes an enchantment when you use an attack skill, not when you just attack.

And there is already a skill like Winds Of Disenchantment in the Necro curses line called: Chilblains, only you get poisoned instead of losing all enchantments. and Chilblains is pretty underplayed for it's effect, probably because it costs 25 energy.

True enough. The Avatar of grenth thing was an over-sight which others have already corrected in the thread. Again, you are right about there already being skills like Winds of Disenchantment already in the game. Chilblains now actually removes 2 enchantments thanks to a recent buff. Plus if a necro uses plague touch, the poison becomes less of a problem. In fact add Virulence to this and you have a lethal weapon.
Anyway, that's the point see. The enchantment hate is 'growing'. Chilblains wasn't that bad anyway as it would likely be used by a softie (necro). That player would have to be in the front-lines as the opposition who would require 'hating' on would probably be in the enemy back-line.
Essentially, the necro is generally not a close-quarter hunter, so Chilblains isn't gonna' cause much trouble anyways. The Dervish however is just that. A melee hunter. His aim is to get to that back-line and rage everyone in it (natural aoe damage). That's why enchantment hate on such a character class is potentially a big deal.

Guess you write and forget what you say.

If you do not read what is posted because its a waste of time and bad proposals its ok, but if you critizise without reading you should abstain yourself from posting in a rush. Whatever from now on i will just focus on the thread, there are plenty of nicer ideas than yours and mine and we are passing by them.

About the Avatar of Grenth:

I only faced them as a boon/prot monk and it was not a huge problem to be strip because i can recast Divine boon, Mantra of recall gives me energy anyway, Guardian lasts 5 secs and recharges in 2, and Reversal of fortune ends anyway if you are hit. But let me tell you this: i earned 2 sigils using a Dervish that weekend and even if stripping an ele was fun i preferred to use PBAoE on her and Avatar of Balthazar to chase her: hell more effective.

*thought out of topic* The nerfing line between balance and useless is very thing. I hope ANET wont nerf Dervishes till making them rubbish... it sounds familiar to me... deja vu? *back to topic* The elementalist will be the most punished character in Nightfall thats for sure. Let us hope that the new skills will be attractive enough to play the upcoming expansion in "hard mode" (ele) instead of "easy mode" (dervish).

About attunements

The quickest balancing strategy would be to make attunements skills, but if like preparations or stances you cannot have two on simultaneously then the remedy would be more harmful than the sickness

Nevertheless my suggestion is still the same: Better % of energy back so we do not need to use twin attunements. But I confess that if the attunements become unstackable skills and the % is modified but is far below the 80% of twin attunements i will cry for asking mods

Don't be a hypocrite. If you expect me to be polite in response to

then you have another thing coming. At the time I posted that was the extent of your post. You completely ignored the mass of suggestions I made regarding the fire line and the nature of interrupts as a counter-instead you decided to throw a fit about the distracting shot comment.

You have absolutely no grounds for complaint, and I am not going to apologize.

Erh, Symbol, Cynn, could you continue by MP?
About the Dervish:
I don't think Dervish skills are broken at all. In fact, I think they're just fine the way they are. However, like many said, their Primary Attribute is completely broken. RoF and CoP was the best way to abuse it.
I don't want to continue a flame war, Symbol, but about the Dervish, you will have to nerf it via a global change (its Primary Attribute), not by skill tweaking.
For the elementalists... Even a cut by half of the recharge and casting time of every of its spells wouldn't make me use it for damage, you would always have energy problem (excepted if you use elite E-management)...

Ensign, I am still very eager to see you giving your feedback on how to fix an ele PVE and PVP wise with your concepts.
Since the damage buff we ask for is too much of a threat when dealt in PVP, and understandable for PVE. And the damage fixed for PVP purposes is just too pathetic when brought into PVE gaming expereince.

Shall i say, Mob level (Level 20 PVP Where there is no pressure output from an Ele's Damage spells OR PVE, where this gets even more fugly) or armour level affects (Specialy Rangers and warriors) are the major contributing issues in Ele's Gimped form?
Or is the the Cost of spell, Recharge and Cast time? Or is it because an ele is stuck with his elite forced to be an E-Management? Or like every one mentioned above, the damage it self is too pathetic any way? I am just curious.

By the way, i do agree with glountz. Happens to be a fugly fact.
Well, will see how dervish goes. Waiting to make one as soon as i get nightfall to see the difference.

PS: Kindly Do let me know if i am not very clear with my vocabulary while posting and I shall get someone to proof read and fix it next time.

There are alot of good fixes and arguements here. I do agree with the global changes need to be avoided. By changing the global rules, you risk screwing something else up. It's better to buff and reconstruct existing skills to prevent the global changes from affecting cross-class builds.

On the debated arguement here I'll be blunt, the distracting shot misconception is NOT a big deal. All skills in guildwars are commonly referred to as "Skills." Skills are categorized by spells, enchantments, SKILLS, etc. There are alot of interrupt skills in guildwars, especially in the mesmer line that don't specify if the "skill" pretense specifies a universal skill or a skill that is catergorized as a "skill" (I.E. Troll Unguent).

For Example:

Cry of Frustration - Spell
If target foe is using a skill, that foe and nearby foes are interrupted and suffer 10-37 damage.

We all know from experience cry of frustration will interrupt your spells as well.

Or how about:

Blackout - Hex Spell
For 2-6 seconds, all of touched target foe's skills are disabled, and all of your skills are disabled for 5 seconds.

When I get hit by black out all my spells and enchantments are disabled as well.

The aoe buffs are explanations symbol has made are great ideas. Especially in regards to his usage as AOE as pressure to remove warriors from targets (stay and burn principle). With the distraction shot aspect, its a mistake anyone can make because of the games' reference to "Skills" and it's failing to specify if the term is universal to all skills or just skills labeled as "skills."

You shouldn't hate on his post and ignore the important points in his arguement just because of something so trivial. There are changes put forward by some of these ideas that are plain no brainers. (Like that retarded PBaoe aftercast.... wtf man?)

I've done my fair share of arguements on elementalists and yes they have been beat down by the nerf bat quite a bit. However, eles are FAR from useless in normal and high level play. The problem is that the rickety construction of some of these skills limits the roles an elementalist can play and with this the threat an elementalist can portray on the battlefield. We know that because elementalists have bad DoT we won't be expecting them to be damage dealers. But elementalist are still quite powerful with wards, snares, and other utility spells.

Somehow this thread has contorted into trying to make the elementalist into the highest damage dealer in the game in order to "compete" with other classes. I do agree that Estorage is busted to a degree, but some simple non elite energy spells can help fix this problem (or even something simple like ensigns idea of an exhaustion buff).

The aoe changes to fire magic are great ideas and the elementalist becoming more of a field control master would definetly add more dimension to the state of PVP without jeopardizing the entire balance of the game. Desperately trying to make universal changes to mass elementalist damage has the possibility of turning elementalist spike teams into unstoppable firing squads. I would have no problem throwing out some fire AoEs on a warrior and watching the idiot burn while he wails on my monk. Just a slight bump up in some of the skills is all an ele needs to be moved up to par.

And get rid of that damn aftercast....