I want harder missions then the deep.

I really enjoy this mission, and would like to see more missions like this in nightfall. I mean the current thrend in prophecies, and faction is really boring and stale. Most builds can solo a lot of the stuff in there.

XoO? Heh.

Anyways, it's impossible to design more difficult content. Whatever you do, it's "kills thing, repeat."

In World of Warcraft, some end-game fights require locational positioning (i.e, casters need to be to the side of certain bosses in order to avoid damage). However, with the current methods of aggro management and bodyblocking, that wouldn't work.

What WOULD work is requiring an extremely cookie-cutter build. (i.e. a boss has a stance that makes him invincible, but can only be broken by an Elementalist spell.)

The only way I can see them getting past the problem of creating AI or challanges too hard for players to find a easy way through is by making the mission pvp based - or tournament based sorta like HoH. And if that happens, rank discrimination rears its ugly head again.

Deep = wall + nuke
Urgoz = trap + pull (or wall + nuke also)

The only thing preventing 6 man teams in the deep right now is time and latency. It would take some pretty experienced players to get through it while taking bit longer due to lack of damage output and losing 1 person in a 6 man team is not nearly as bad as losing 1 person in a 9 man or 12 man team.

It's absolutely possible to design more difficult content. They could increase the difficulty by an order of magnitude simply by having the monsters be significantly randomized in location, number, and build.

The question is: would that be more fun for the majority of players, and if so, is it enough so to be worth the extra development time required? Obviously, Arenanet doesn't think so, and as much as I'd like content that requires a little more thought, the reality is that they'd probably be right to think so.

That said, I thought that at least the Factions big bosses were significantly more challenging and fun than most of Prophecies, although admittedly after the Undead Liche they really couldn't get much worse.

/agree
What annoyed me with GW: Factions and probably will in Nightfall is the fact that while the new monsters may look different and such, I still dislike how the "lure, tank, nuke nuke heal splat repeat" element of every single mob I encounter. It starts to get really really boring after a while. The WoW things you mentioned sound interesting but the locational positioning sounds kinda like the cookie cutter part you were talking about. In any case I made enough money to stay off PvE and hope it might get a bit more interesting.

I believe Nightfall will have 3 elite missions.

LOL, show me one build that can solo a bunch of diverse monsters in a Faction mission.

Dude go play WoW if that's what you like

The game mechanics are way different in the two games and personally I find the WoW way retarded - I mean you can *through* friends and foes.

Please for god sakes don't try to take ANY inspiration from WoW and try to apply it to GW it simply doesn't work.

In the terms of large-group combat, the games are similar.

Take either Elite Mission boss. You need to do some weird crap to kill them. Take any WoW Raid boss. You need to do some weird crap to kill them also.

I fail to see how the ability to walk through players invalidates my point. (just makes life much easier.)

How about having really difficult solo maps, one for each profession. Ah, a man can dream..

Like what? When I beat Urgoz, my party started out trying cheap tricks like EoE and eventually just went with dodging around like lunatics spamming all our skills as fast as we could without getting killed. I wish more of the elite mission was as fun as that was.

Better AI, less mobs makes for a more interesting game than bad AI, lots of mobs. Just work on the AI more please, ANet.

And that makes it more interesting because you HAVE to have bring a specific type of char to do the mission - like the stupid Tranquilizing Shot Hunter and such?

I hate raiding with a passion and hope Anet never implements crap like that.

Tried... underworld?

You can 2-man UW...it's far from "difficult".

Underworld can be entirely cleared with multiple gimmick builds. UW and FoW are in no way difficult. >.>

Screenshot of "The Four Horsemen" completed with party window open and displaying 2 people, kthx.

Yes, UW can be cleared with "gimmick" builds. All of PvE can be cleared with those builds. Your point?

None of GW PvE is difficult? How hard of a point is that to make?

You were implying that UW was hard, when you can 2-man something it isn't hard Alleji...I dunno what the hell you're getting at now, but my point stands, PvE is not difficult.

I want a level of just defeating a HUGE boss! no other enemies just a big-ass BOSS. It would have to have like 8 bars of health and changes prof everytime u get its health down a bar. It would also have monster skill self heals.

seeing that anet is working on rpg, I think the hack and slash stat of the will drop. Get people to start using their thinking caps to about in the game I 100% bet if anet makes rpg. people will love it

As for ai, You can only make the AI so hard LOL

what you people keep forgetting is this is a cooperative game... Its designed to be played in groups. Sure you can solo things, whatever. that's what makes it boring... Rinse and repeat farming. hell yea boring as hell so don't do it.

The other thing to remember is that the Linking the games concept Ruins the new content for many people. Its not intentional, but it does. IE Prophecies maxed out levels going to Cantha and finding the content about the same as what they left. well not quite, but that's what everyone always complains about. I don't agree or nothing just repeating what they are always bitching to me about... Face it.. its NOT an expansion. its another game that you happen to be able to link up with. Play from lev 1 and its a little more fun in that you got to level up again, but as we all know the leveling up is rather easy for one reason... because of the high level creatures in the game almost from the 2nd mission on. Do them 2 or 3 times and your good to go at lev 20... the Monestary can level up players rather fast, but that was to maximize high level content for the players coming over from Prophacies. In many ways it made the game as a stand alone a little too easy by comparision. I mean imagine if the Charr were level 23-25 right out of the gate? Lev 20 character build would have been extreamly common. well before Asension. Thats was the problem with Cantha, But allas would people that had prophacies played it if it was more on par with Prophacies Lev table for missions? I doubt it...

The only thing that will make people happy it seems is grind systems to allow exploitation of low level people. IE grind makes better, Lev cap increase.

When this happens it can happen only one way. a completely new and unlinked game chapter. meaning say chapter 5... Its a completely new game with new level 100 bosses and all, and a new level cap of like idk 80.. whatever... (any "CAP" will never be good enough for some people anyway) Then that game will have a private and COMPLETELY separate PVP and PVE area, with absolutely NO linking back to old areas. This is the ONLY way this can happen in the GW world and not drastically effect all the games as a whole.

The introduction of greater then lev 20 characters in PvP will instantly cause the balance of power in the PvP realm to shift to latest chapter only. Cutting the entire PvP multi Chapter multi build concept out of the game forever.

the only thing I would suggest to make PvE harder is make Mobs dependant on the lev of the person playing. so if your in the city missions and only lev 10 well your mobs are not that bad. but if your in the city missions as a lev 20 then you have to fight a min of lev 25-30 mobs and bosses, and Every mob with 3 monks...

Also make the Seldom played Challenge missions a requirement to get further in the game. IE: you have to kill 100 enemies in 1 mission to advance to next regional area in the game.

make UW harder...sure. 50 Nightmares in every room... Re-spawning every 5 mins. Make nightmares at least 4 with every smite group. Have nature renewal a AOE effect throughout UW and Fissue... Have nighmares and Mobs HUNT. meaning not agro attack but HUNT everyone. make agro bubble for MOBS 2 times the size as a players agro bubble.

that would toughen things up a bit for you... Wouldn't it? then again you would likely be all alone in your progress as most will not want to go through all that crap just to play the game. they will likely not be buying a chapter like that... Heck most hate that they can not run through all of cantha without doing primary quests... Imagine if that restriction got worse as described above? See my point? I doubt it. Let me put it another way even an idiot can understand...

If you don't like the game don't play it. Problem solved.

If you want tougher missions, go play nekkid and with a normal weapon. Try doing it without all the fancy stuff.

Guess what? Arenanet already think that their pvE portion is RP. That's why PvE characters are RP characters. Don't expect it to lose it's hack and slash nature, blackman. It's the style of the game.

Well I find the normal missions and quests hard enough for me, sometimes even too hard. Not everybody is good as you and there are still players that are just starting the game. Tried Urgoz Warren and did not really enjoy it = too hard and too long, I ended up with a head-hache, never tried the Deep and I don't feel like traying it either.

If you find this game too easy...... get another game that is difficult/hard enough for you!

I find all the changes/updates already done to make it harder for who's farming not pleasant, I certainly don't need the game getting harder than it is, thank you very much!

I wish to enjoy GW-Prophecies-Factions and (perhaps) Nightfall too.

Amen to that. Not all of us sit behind the computer for hours without a break.
I play healer, and I noticed that many players are really one-hit kills at that stage. It is really frustrating as healer.
Just did Boreas Seabed with some minion masters, and it was really frustrating having to fight all those minions off, every time when they died. We finally managed to kill the kraken, but not after all their minions and flesh golems finally died off.
Please people, this game is to hard for a fast majority, so get off your high horse and help some others through the game.
On a side note: I think that many of those one-hit kills also come here telling the game is to easy. Some people should really change strategy, once they notice they die to often. Superior runes are overrated, and superior vigor is your friend. The monsters you fight, exactly know who's te weak link in your party and you'll be killed in order of how little armour/health you have

Because of cookiecutter and mission knowledge, the only way to make a truly 'hard' mission would be to introduce the one thing that makes pvp a challenge, unpredictability.

Zone that changes for every group (Bnet D2 style), with changing spawns (class, position, patrol route, etc) so that groups would have to be balanced to be ready for everything.

Have you tried GvG? Way way harder than anything PvE can throw at you.

How about introduce something that puts PvE mesmers in high demand.

Tbh I'm all for making stuff harder, I love the challenging things they added, like the elite missions and Rotscale. But I hope they make it harder by clever means, rather than just giving unfair disadvantages to the players. -15 health degen... auto damage, teleporting to foe's locations with knockdown... I don't like this way of making it harder. A limited amount of it is fine, but I dunno... I think there are better ways of making challenging content. Enemies with clever builds that complement each other. Or randomize more like Avarre says, so that you can't have cookie cutter builds designed for one situation, you need to be balanced and ready for whatever it will throw at you.

Ugh. The Elite missions arent "hard" in terms of being challenging....they're just very very long and tedious and boring.

As Loki said, improve the AI instead of just throwing more mobs at us. 4 hours of repetitive pull and kill, kill, kill of the same mobs is not challenging nor fun. But sadly it seems like a lot of you enjoy that crap.

To me, harder means that a mission takes more time.
The deep on its own takes almost 3 hours.
Urgoz seems even longer to me.

There is NO way I want to spend MORE time on a mission than what the current elites require.

Make harder missions = Make AI better, no tanking or aggro control, AI will always targets the weakest target ect. Loads of ways to get to Rome.

The Deep and Warrens are hard enough. Anything tougher would require a SOLID cookie cutter build. Right now you can enter the Deep or Warrens with any class in the game and make it through.

I completly agree with artay. I want a entire mission were all you do is fight one Huge dude. He takes up like the whole screen and there are these really great cinematic camera angles through the whole fight.

Mazes and puzzles, those would rock!

I have noticed this as well - other than Kanaxi(sp) at the end, the Deep runs pretty smoothly, especially with the 4 Warrior, 2 Ele, 2 Necro, 4 Monk setup.

The few teams that I've joined in Urgoz seem to have a hard time killing quickly - much more painstaking, IMO.

i would love some clever good long pve content.. pref a shit long quest thats divided into several minor quest.. like talk to a dude att the end of urgoz, giving u a quest that need you to complete the deep (or somt similar place). a lot of sub quests in main quest that give you a nice reward in the end. (an a special title or somt..) and some of the mission could have completly random spawns of huge groups of low monsters or single high lev bosses.. and rewards must be none tradable only within ur same account.. (so if u get an axe f.ex u can give it to your war or somt but not sell it. (and same drop never drops twice for same account to prevent farming..)

How about instead of harder missions you try doing them with different characters/builds? Play a mesmer yet? Think you're any good? Go prove it. Try monking. How are your ranger interrupting skills? When you've done it all with it all, then you can complain.

I think maybe his point is that you're talking crap.

First of all: The two-man gimmick builds can not clear UW or FoW, they can clear certain areas of it.

Would the next person who feels the urge to say that UW and FoW are easy kindly first go do the Four Horsemen quest? If you can do that "easily" then you're qualified to talk.

Secondly: PvE is easy because you're playing cookie-cutter builds in cookie-cutter guild-teams using cookie-cutter tactics someone else developed for you. That's your choice, but don't bitch about PvE being too easy when you do this.

Have you ever gone in to a mission or major quest without knowing what awaited you or having someone hold your hand? No? Because that's where the difficulty in PvE lies. As a mission is exactly the same every time, you can always develop an optimal team build and tactic to beat it. By never developing that build or tactic yourself, but simply used what other have developed for you, you've cheated yourself out of any challenge.

People read spoilers, get run, have experienced guildies hold their hand and instruct them every step of the way - and then complain there were no surprises and everything was easy? Pff.

A) I have two man cleared the entire FOW using an ele and a monk.

B) I have seen pictures of Four Horsemen completed with 3 people.

C) Urgoz gets interesting if you dont trap... but a good Mesmer still makes the hardest parts easy as hell.

D) The Deep is kind of a joke.

E) There ARE ways to make PVE more difficult, and the forerunner of those is unpredictability. If you dont know what to bring into a mission, because you dont know what itll throw at you this time, it gets a bit more interesting.