Not another limited world

Hahaha like Prophecies wasn't guilty of that at all. Hi, Ruins of Surmia, I don't want to kill a million Devourers in a row. What, I don't have to? Oh, now I have to kill a million Charr. Wonderful!

In Prophecies I found Ascalon, The Northern Shiverpeaks and early parts of Kryta to be slightly tidious with my Xth character (I honestly have no clue how many time I have rerolled half of my characters), but pretty much after that, I really start having a load of fun.

Factions, I have completed it with about 4 characters at least and I haven't really gotten bored, but I wouldn't mind either way, I definately don't agree that people should run their first characters, and I have seen this happening, THAT ruins the game.

Personally myself, I think players should be able to travel anywhere, however aren't allowed to access certain missions if they haven't completed the previous, but as I said, either way I'll be fine with it.

I think that is a great idea. I have seen some people call 15k armor "Ascended Armor". Why not have the 1.5k armor have a requirement of being lvl 20 and 15k armor have a requirement of being ascended. Problem "somewhat" solved IMO... I do have a 55 monk but I DO NOT pwr lvl people. I think it is a waste of my time and a pitty to them for not experiencing the fun of doing things yourself instead of taking the easy way out. So the power leveling issue would have to be solved as well, like patching the XP to have only those involved in battle get the it and have the aggro of enemies go for lower lvl's/lower hp (which they do sometimes IMO)

So in a nut shell, I say: Keep the dumb runners and bots, take away the gates, make lvl requirements AND mission requirements to get better armor, and patch the leveling system to not allow us 55 monks to get a lvl 2 to 20.

Not really an issue in Factions. You're level 20 pretty soon. And the Ascension is the second quest on mainland Cantha.

Again, I think this is more of a Prophecy issue. But, honestly, why not let Characters who already have one level 20 character make another PvE character start at level 20. I mean, the whole "leveling" process in Guild Wars is basically training anyways.

This all boils down to "what is fun." Some people consider getting to level 20 grind, and although I don't agree, those people should have options.

After all, the idea here is to make a game that is fun for the most people possible. As long as it doesn't hurt you, what do you care if someone power levels or not?

How in anyway would this make things better?...

Not moaning about Factions or anything... But what was wrong with how Tyria Worked?... It was Fine there are some people that wan the Max armor first, and when they know how and have the money why should they not be able to?...

Its what made GW Diff from every other online game as it does not have level caps on the Equipment and they should not change that just because people think it will remove the point of running.

If people want to run they really should be able to as it makes alot of players happy who already have characters and dont want to go through the whole game again.

... Ok this isnt the only reason people get runs and ok some people just noob there way through the game... but still why shouldnt they be able to if thats what makes them play the game?...

Anti Runners annoy me for the simple reason that they want everyone to play the game like them and im sorry but i love doing the missions... i love running areas... I like grinding and avoiding missions which is harder than doing the missions alot of the time but more than anything i like it when i have the choice to do all of them. for ME that shows alot more though put into a game because they have made each part of the game doable in different ways which requires alot more effort than putting random gates everywhere to stop people getting places.

I mean the Crystal Desert and Thunderhead Keep and such obviously are fantastic because it means you have to put in real effort to get 2 1 or 2 areas of the game. that is FINE... but the idea of gates after every mission makes the game have a much shorter life span than a game when you can do as you wish from one moment to the next.

IMO That is.

Valkyrian, in no way is this a dig at what you said, at least you put forward a constructive idea... i dont think its an awful idea, its much better than keeping the gates in the game. and by this being in the game it would still make grinding viable.

Quoted for truth. Again, if it doesn't effect you, why complain about it?

Honestly I think its cool how people(runners) can be so creative to make money that other way. Im looking for someone right now in this moment to run me from dronkars forge to granite!


i like a good mixture of explor areas and missions... it gives a nice sense of change of pace!

Personally, I think that there should be no gates and, instead, there should be a bigger world actually worth the $50 like prophecies was. Running, power-leveling, getting armor early, etc should all be allowed. That is the point of an open-ended game.

Thanks Draxx, and I agree with a lot of what you said as well. I myself have seen both the good and the bad that came from runners. For those of us who have experienced the full game once, and seen all the mobs and skills used, it is MUCH easier for us to have a defense to why we need an open enviornment to explore and runners to get to places we've seen before with other chars. That open enviornment is what allowed us to get through the game faster the next time with our other characters. But for those new to the game, I would advise that you play through it at least once to get a grasp of what skills are used by all professions and get a grasp of it all.

I guess that is where factions takes grasp of a "linier" enviornment, except they kinda f'ed up when the let you be a lvl 20 in 2 hours, have max armor in 3 hours, and getting your group killed in 4 hours because you lacked the game knowledge to know any better.

I agree with Mordakai, getting to areas by fighting your way felt much better then doing the missions, when I got Factions i decided that I would fight my way to HzH with my tyrian char, I fought my way to Bazaar and found the locked gate and went, nooo! Tried goig though Undercity, noo! 2 days wasted .

But anyway for me running is sometihng fun, I do it to explore and help friends. Of course I do the missions, but I still like exploring. When exploring I don't get the "everyone have done this" feeling even though I know people have explore what I explore but it's anyway a different feeling.

I really hope Nightfall will be more open.

BTW: That about not getting proper skills when it's open, I've seen monks as far as Arborstone using flare and heal party only.

I'd just like to say that

1) I never had trouble finding PUGs in Prophecies unless it could be expected due to the time of day.

2) The skill level of people who weren't run in Factions was not so different than the people who accidentally skipped through Prophecies with their first character. After letting my buddy come over and play a little Guild Wars, I've come to the conclusion that the average new gamer (person who has not been playing games of any sort before Guild Wars) is just not very good. Sure, there are exceptions, but what I am saying is that it's not "running" that made people suck later in Prophecies. They would have been just as bad had they gone through the entire game.

3) I think that opening the gates but restricting the ability to do missions is a great idea. That way you could unlock a good portion of the map without being able to skip the content......explorable yet not skippable. There could, of course, be a couple places just like Prophecies that you couldn't get to without doing the missions and that would keep people from just running through the game.

4) Those of us who hate the gates are not always just wanting to skip content of the game. Sometimes we just want to explore a map without needing a defined destination. Other times we just want to cap an Elite Skill for our character. Either way, I think those closed gates ruined the game for many of us just as runners apparently ruined the game for many of you. Maybe there's a solution that can make both parties happy but it's important that you realize just locking the gates isn't it. I've seen a lot of people saying "keep them locked" and a lot of people saying "just make it the way it was". Can't we stop being selfish and think about something that would accomplish what both sides want?

NOTE: Yes, there are a few responses that do just that....but they are way too few and far between, imo.

I played through Maguuma and every mission on all four of my characters (even my assassin) without being run anywhere once. But I've also never complained about Kaineng City; I have no problem with the gates or anything as I always do all the quests along the way anyway.

To the person who claims they wouldn't mind doing missions 12+ times - sorry but you're more likely to be the exception rather than the rule. I also noticed still not rushing to volunteer to do the mission for anyone else. In effect that proves one thing - antirunners are trying to force their world view and how it should be played on everyone else, in effect taking away options

Removing gates adds options - people can be run, if they choose to, or not. Nothing forcing either way. You clearly get more choice that way, which I'd rather have more of than less of.

Now some myths and realities:

Myth: removing running improves player abilities (or, running ruins the game)
Reality: not really, crap players will still be crap players and they'll just be carried through by groups. Factions groups have not exhibited any generally better playing abilitiy than Prophecies groups, despite being forced to do missions over and over.

Myth: gates are there to prevent PvP abuse
Reality: low level chars can still get max armour from Kaineng and go back and abuse low level arenas. It does not explain why many missions/areas after that point still need gates. 15k armour is irrelevent as it's purely aesthetic.

Myth: you find it fun and acceptable to do same missions over and over, so that negates any counterargument
Reality: you're not the only one playing it, and many people don't find it fun

Myth: gates increase the game quality/make it last longer
Reality: at least on euro servers, I can say I've noticed far less players in outposts and towns for missions. Extremely rarely, if ever, had the Prophecies groups I'd been in needed to swap districts to try to find people. That's not uncommon in Factions, where people have had to scourge districts trying to find players for the mission. Granted that may be because it's just not that great, but it could also be because people don't really feel like doing same missions over and over and over again.

I'd like to end by saying the fact is running is there because of huge demand for it. Entire guilds and alliances are dedicated to it. To simply deny that fact and try to ram it down all those players' throats just because you don't like it yourself is a pretty poor way to ignore what an awful lot of players want and prefer.

Ok, question.
Why buy a game that has a storyline and missions if you don't want to play them?

What is at the end if you don't want to do the missions? Farming? Showing of? What is the point( I know for some it's PvP, but the rest)?
Having 6 or 8 lvl 20 toons and only 1 went through all the missions, then what do you do?
Why don't we just get a map with zones full of monsters and no missions, then A-net can serve up a new map every month for $50 and all new toons are lvl 20 fully skilled and unlocked. No need to write a stupid story line no one cares about anyway. just some outposts where you can show of the latest "Uber" armour and flash some rank, screem a few "noobs" and then what?

????
Answers? anyone?

I, too, agree.

Yeah, I agree with Koolman and Ashantara. I hope they do make outposts in future chapters accessible through quests and not runs.

You miss the point though. Millions of "stupid" devourers survived due to their numbers, like ants might. (Yes there were different types of "bugs", but not to the same extent as in Factions, Proph just did it "right" where Factions went a little over board.) They were annoying bugs but easily dispatched of. Minotaurs, same thing; tough dumb creatures that just beelined at you and the group. Made them seem like what they were, dumb creatures. Gave the world a life.

What I'm saying is simply from the noob isle till Shiro, each and every mob group was almost the exact same. It had melee, ranged, casters and a healer. Even the insects. So almost every single fight was the exact same over and over and over. Ruins of Surmia used as an example is like using VSquare as an example, only it's aflicted over and over and over yet never changing, ever.
In Proph, different mobs acted differently, many didn't even have healers or casters. The "bugs" in echovald... what kind of bug has a monk, ele assassin, mesmer and travels in a group back and forth? Devourers at least acted like annoying "bugs" and not like an Am Fah in a bugs skin. I got out of the city only to find the wardens (Jade Brotherhood) and "bugs" (Am Fah) still there. Headed over to the Luxon side and found Naga (Jade Brotherhood) and "fish" (Am Fah) there as well*. Nothing ever changed. Not all types of creatures should be "smart" enough to know a balanced group. Good for challenge, but really bad for enviroment and game world illusion.

* Only such a small variation of them I had to actually think about what was differnt about them.

Add to this, the locked gates and limited game world and the illusion is destroyed.

Jades had mages, warriors, mesmers, and ritualists.
Am Fah had healers, necros, assassins, and rangers.

Mantids has healers, mesmers, eles, and assassins.
Wardens had warriors, mesmers, eles, ritualist, and rangers.
Dredge had healers, assassins, warriors, and rangers.

Naga had ritualists, warriors, and rangers.
Fish like species had assassins, ritualists, and monks.
Outcasts had necromancers, warriors, and assassins (I think).

So everything considered, Factions was effectively one balanced group (but not always the SAME group) after another.

Prophecies, on the other hand, went to the OTHER extreme. Most of the groups you faced were of one or two professions.

IMHO neither did it "right", because we really needed a bit of BOTH. Tke the South Shiverpeaks, there were mobs of shadows (necros), mobs of griffons (monks) and mixed and balanced groups of Stone Summit, and the random wurm thrown in for good measure. Then look at Perdition Rock, hydra walked around in a group, flesh golems walked around in a group, drakes walked around in a group. Oh and the what made it oh so very difficult was that very few of the mobs ever had a healer, so it was very difficult to kill them.

Factions wasn't a challenge, correct. I can, and I did, take one build (on my mesmer) right through to the end of the game. In Prophecies however, I changed my build often. Yet remember that most of us spent our time in Prophecies LEARNING about the game mechanics. It was harder not because we had to change our build frequently, but because we were still trying to get the most out of our characters. I KNOW I could take the same build I used in Factions through Prophecies too. It wouldn't be a challenge, but that is because I now know more about the game than I did back when I was first exploring Tyria.

Oh and presumably some of the Faction team did work on Prophecies. Remember the game was in development maybe 5(?) years. My understanding of the split was that it happened just before Prophecies was to be released. So those of you who are sitting there thinking the "original" team is responsible for Nightfall and the "infidels" are responsible for Factions may very well find themselves sorely disappointed.

Factions was (IMHO) a testing of a number of concepts. They threw them out to use in the form of a game to see how they were received. Some weren't received well, some were not, others are still in debate, and some we haven't even bothered to comment on. I doubt Anet is going to stop trying new things just because they don't want to disappoint the fans. Without change, games quickly become boring.

As for locked gates, I agree that they should exist, but not as restrictive as they are in Factions. Remember that those who got run to Drok's missed out on a very crucial cinematic at the end of the Dragon's Lair mission. If they have finished the game before, fine, but many people who get run haven't, and many of us are sick of being abused by low level characters claiming to be "leet" in missions such as Ice Caves of Sorrow when we refuse to take characters below lvl20. (For the record, I will take them but only if they are friends or guildies). Furthermore, I'm sick of people complaining that they can't get a group because they are of a lower lvl. Certainly, lvl =/= skill, but remember that until we hit gameplay, the character lvl is all you have to go on, along with chat dialogue. Kick someone because they don't seem to know what they are doing "oh I'm really leet" just doesn't cut it for me, and you get abused. My ignore list is only so long, and I'd rather leave that for real idiots as opposed to self-proclaimed "leet" players, who evidently have no idea what they are doing.

^ talk about off-topic

No, it's on topic in reference to the limited game play in reference to the amount of various play vs mobs and locked gates. Lock gates are not Faction's only limited game play issue; other issues are the lack of content: Missions, differences in Mob structure, lack of PvE end game content, locked gates stopping exploration, faction farming effectively stopping game play for grind, and more.

I agree with your build list 100% Lady L, and that's my point (I even stated that I had to really think about what the differences were). The rits were healers with some channeling mixed in for the most part, so other than that single rit/monk mix, look at each mob type. They are built almost the exact same. A few different skills here and there and a different skin and it was the exact same fight over and over again.
Pull group, take out monk/rit first and the rest would fall in seconds. You follow that through out the entire campaign and it's a breeze. No variation. So it was the same game play from start to finish.
Now, don't get me wrong, I still enjoy playing around in Factions, but I do not enjoy doing the missions, whereas I still do the missions in Tyria as those are much more fun and one reason is the different mob build ups. The other reason is the timed missions which also limits game play in that you have to rush through it.
I'm just hoping that Nightfall ditches the locked gates and puts in something that restricts merchants/missions from working till the players have completed specific quests/missions. That leaves the game open while still allows for exploration. I'm also hoping that "dumb" mobs act like "dumb" mobs using what nature might, brute strength and numbers to survive vs seeing each and every mob group act like they were just in town doing the whole "glf X".
Purely my opinion here, obviously, but those mantids would have been much more fun if the assassin bugs would "pop" out of the ground in mass numbers. The caster "bugs" fell from the trees like the spiders did in Maguuma. If they came in groups of their own rather than in a "balanced" group, they would have seemed more like bugs rather than insect versions of Am Fah.

Nice way to obsfucate and confuse there - nobody's saying that at all, what they're saying is you shouldn't be forced to do the same ones over and over again to get to the bits of the game you do find interesting, or to achieve other goals e.g. capping skills or just plain wanting to explore. Nobody should be forced to redo missions over and over (and over and over and over and over... you get the picture) especially if you happen to find some missions insanely boring and/or irritating. I've completed Factions several times over I might add, and one of my main original characters (my Mesmer) frankly I just didn't feel like going through everything yet again just to get him forward a bit... that char is still at Kaineng because of locked gates making it a chore to redo a set path every time, as opposed to being something fun.

Yes that is what ppl are saying, You your self want to skip part of the game TO GET TO THE FUN PARTS. Well as I said scrap all missions and let's just have a new map every month with fun parts.

If you have read the whole thread there is ideas that would leave the map open for exploration and skill capping, but not let you skip missions just to get to the fun ones. The gates are a nessesary evil, and I hope they have some kind of blocks in Nightfall.

1. No one would pay $50 a month for Guild Wars, no matter how good it was. No game is worth that much cash.

2. Instead of ditching stories and missions all together, (?!?) just make them better. As has been said on other threads, don't make the bonuses time-based, and don't make missions the only way to progess in the game

What I love about Prophecies was there are always alternatives. Do I want to collect stuff to get armor, or buy it? Do I want to progress through the missions to move on, or just explore?

I don't want to eliminate choices. I want more choices.

Removing the missions and story is not even an option. Just remove the gates. I can't believe some people actually like gates. Why do you want to be forced to do certain missions before you can get a Certain Elite, for example? How is that fun (especially I you don't know you had to do the mission, and waste valuable time trying to get into someplace you just can't. For no good reason.)

Why are they a "necessary evil"? The only purpose is to artificially lengthen a short game.

This is not a game balance issue, we are all level 20 already. This is not an Armor issue, we all have access to max armor at Keineng Center (sp?)

So, why do you want to force me to play the game a certain way? I'll still do the missions, but I'll enjoy them more knowing I'd doing them by choice, not by force.

Anet, make the game the most fun for the most people. Unlocked gates don't hurt anyone, those that want to do the missions in order, and not stray off the path, can do so. But those of us who are Mavericks, and want to stray off the path would like the ability to do so.

Not so much as "skip the mission" or just "to get to the fun parts". but something to do or somewhere to see when you don't feel like doing VSquare (for example) yet again because the "other side" brought in all henchies and caused an instant fail because Mhenlo/Togo got killed. The locked gates stop the player from playing all together if they don't want to do that one or another mission yet again. If the locked gates were not there, at least the player could go off and explore some and come back to the mission when they are less irritated or in the mood to try again. As it is now, the player is forced into doing the mission or quests... or Anet is really just holding the hands of the players and saying "Here now, you do this one next. After this one, go over here and talk to this person so you can go here". I don't want my hand held and to be shown how to play the game by the makers. I want to figure out and find something on my own. That's part of the fun and Faction's locked gates removes that part of the fun... and kills the illusion of a living world at the same time.
I'm all for "road blocks" though as it does give a just reward for completion of something. However, the "road blocks" should not block off exploration; instead future missions/merchants and such should not be available to the players untill they have gotten past the previous ones.
Infusion for example was a briliant way of getting the players to do certain missions otherwise they would instantly die while exploring. But the option was still there to do that.
Natural bridges are another way to limit exploration and put in road blocks, such as getting to the Crystal Desert via the mission.
These types of road blocks make since to the lore and game world. A guard standing by a gate for no reason other than to not let you pass cause you haven't completed VSquare for the 10th time, makes no since.

well said.

PLZ read post # 24
Take away the roadblocks, but make it so you can't do mission #3 if you diden't do #2 and so forth, then you can still explore and fight all you want, but not finish the game by jumping over the missions.

Post #94 is start of Sarcasm.

So, you're anti-gates, too? Sorry, 94 didn't sound much like sarcasm, except maybe being sarcastic to anti-gaters (why buy a game with a story at all, etc, etc.)

You still didn't answer my question of why you thought gates were a "necessary evil."

I want to enjoy the game, including the storyline, but the locked gates do not enhance my enjoyment because they tear me away from the fantasy and ruin my 'immersion' in this world which in turn negatively affects my immersion into the sory.

The locked gates - and the timed missions - have ruined the story for me.

What can I say on this... Gates in the middle of a desert. Think about Gates in Crystal Desert. Seriously, All players here have created a circle:


Blocked Gates -» Players blame about exploring and must follow missions -» Anet removes the gates -» No Gates -» Players blame about runners and "kill the fun" by running -» Anet put the Gates -» Blocked Gates..........

Better think about another design of gameplay outside this circle than starting blaming in each side.

Gates or not, GW: P and GW: F were great. Both have different feelings. That was one of my reason I play this game and like it no matter what the players think about the Chapters. Faction make me feels different while playing than always have the same old feelings and get tired in few sec and quit GW.

yea i enjoy tyria's different settings, like snowy mountain shiverpeaks, the desert, the forests, and everything...cantha is just, valleys, slums, and a bit of snow on Shing Jea, so i want it to be like Tyria in terrain and views, but cantha to take out the runners, takes the fun right out of it...i've only gotten a run to Droknar's Forge, but that was only so i had a spot to sell, i've done all the quests so far to beacon's, LA, kaineng, the desert, or where ever i need to go...besides, you can save some money...

Take the "elit" mission weekend for example, a lot of ppl that weren't ready for (did not have all the skills, or the knowledg of playing their character) could get in to the "elit missons" and try it, same thing as being run straight to Cavalon or HzH. But being forced to play through the missions before you reach that point in the game teaches you to use the skills and let's you experiment with diffrent buildts, and to cap the elit skills on the way.
Since you can't tell when making a group for a mission if a player has played his/her way to that point or been run there, I think they are a nessesary evil.(give them a Title that says what the last mission in sequence completed was untill they have beat Shiro)


Before you FLAME ME, they might not be better players but atleast they have played against + lvl24 monsters not just the baby monsters on Shing Jeia Island

You still won't be able to tell whether they are good just by looking at how far they've come in the game. Excellent players with lots of experience on multiple character might have been run far into the game and they'd perform great, and bad players might have made it through all the mission because they happend to get decent PuG's eventually.

Mission progress is a poor indicator of playing expertise.

People are going to complain either way. Personally I like the fact that runners were absent from the picture in Factions.


Honestly I'd like the missions to be NON-LINEAR. I think this would take HUGE leaps and bounds in the right direction. If we start at a central point in the world, and are allowed to choose and pick our path through the missions which wary in scope and difficulty it will nearly eliminate both sides of this arguement. I like this idea, as Elites would be more accesible than they are now, and we'd have more opportunity to use the best elites in more of the game.

This is an excellent point in which I agree. Anet did it once, albeit on a small scale, with the Crystal Desert missions in Tyria. Didn't matter in which order, you just had to finish them all before you got to fight your doppelganger.
Doing it on a larger scale shouldn't be very difficult and after you complete all of the missions, the last mission on the map will be accessible.

But it shows player experiance, then if they still are usless at least you don't get, Oh where do you get that skill, Ok I missed that, I got run here.

For the last time, that problem was unique to Prophecy. It would not be a problem in Factions, because you can buy skills anywhere. And someone could just as easily miss an Elite skill if they don't know where to look.

There is NO game reason to have locked gates in Factions. We're all 20 level (or soon will be). We all have max armor (or should, anyway).

In fact, the Skills issue is one reason there should NOT be locked gates, so people like MMs won't be handicapped in the first missions until they get Flesh Golem.

Let us run and get the skills we want, then do the missions with the characters we want. Why do you have a problem with this?

as long as you can't enter the mission/outpost, I'm fine with whatever the team does

you know what, just sell all the skills in Shing Jeia to lvl1 straight away
never mind just serve it on a silver platter from e-bay
thank god for henchis

As usual, your sarcasm misses the point.

Or do you honestly think that keeping Flesh Golem locked in the Skyway is for "game balance?"

I'm not asking for Elite skills to handed to me. All I'm asking for is a chance to cap them BEFORE I do some missions, if I choose too.

Again, this is about choice. You can choose to go through the game, in order, and finish way before me and get all the Elite skills then. I prefer to make a character I actually want to play first, then do the missions with said character, rather than a handicapped version.

I honestly don't see why you find my choice so offensive! It's not like it would change the way you play...

You can't tell player experience from the toon, it could be their first, or their tenth - and free exploration will yield a lot more experience then rushing through the missions.

There are no skill quests - after your first mission - in 'Locked-Gates Cantha'. Someone might have gone all the way to HzH with the skills they received in Shin Jea Monestary.

Locked Gates are a reason to stay away from free exploration and thus finding and doing quests outside of the primary quest. And since it are specifically those side quests that yield skills, locked gates are actually going to work against skillacquisition.

And why is that? What are you reasons against free exploration?