New Enemy AI

lol, just do away with the aggro-circle i guess. The AI is now officially human, if u come up on their radar. Your automatically aggro-ed despite the fact that there may be 20-30 of em in that area.

I have yet to see any contradictions, only lack of understanding from pro-new-AI supporters. In other words, those that "don't get it"... hence confusion and grasping at something to refocus the thread on.

The only difference in opinions from players not liking the new AI is between the farmers and those that find the game too easy now. There is no contradictions from players of the same on either of those issues. Though, it seems pro-new-AI supporters are attempting to twist the issue from broken AI towards the players who are against a weak AI, to derail the topic. The usual forum tactics I must add. - Notice how the topic changed from discussion on AI towards the players? Derailing attempt... Topic thread is about "New Enemy AI"; not "Players that don't like the New Enemy AI". If you can't stay on topic, please start a new thread.

I think that video shows something is wrong with the AI right now, and we've finally heard from Gaile that Anet is at least looking into it. I've had entire groups of mobs do what that video showed. In fact, I've had several full groups do that. Chase us for the "pull", then we charge at them and they flee. This allows me (us when grouped) to reverse kite the entire zone for nearly free kills. If they aren't fleeing like that video shows, they are running in circles for the same result.

I haven't seen this as much in NF as I seen in Prophecies. I chased a Bog Skale a full compass 1/2 length away from his group then he circled back around. I mean what does that accomplish? Just gets you killed running from your group that far.

So I guess you calling people who like the change "halfwits" doesnt count as "attempting to twist the issue towards the players" and isnt a "derailing attempt" right?

Sorry, but I wasnt the one throwing names out earlier and there is no conspiracy here. I did see a lot of contradictions, whether you agree or not is yet another issue obviously.

Now back to the topic, that video showed me what was wrong with the server synch/lag issues, not A.I. issues. There were a couple of times where I had the same problem with me sprinting accross the whole map and still had invisible enemies constantly hitting me. But when I stopped, I rubber banded alllllll the way back to where I started running.

If you believe the video shows A.I. problems and not server synch/lag issues, then ask yourself this and some of you already asked it, how were those gnashers keeping up with the warrior with the speed buffs when the gnashers themselves don't have speed buffs? The answer that they can't, the server synching is screwed up. It's not an A.I. issue in that video, it's a server issue.

It's frustrating to me because it appears they went after solo farming and running as the main goal rather than actually improving the intelligence of the enemy mobs. In other words I think they targeted a few behaviors of players and tried to limit the effectiveness of those behaviors rather than trying to do an overall improvement of the AI.

The new monster AI is more difficult than the pre-NF AI only in the sense that running a marathon is more difficult than running a mile. You do the same thing -- it just takes longer, and that's if you choose to play the way you always did. Of course you can adjust to those changes with new tactics, or just not using any tactics at all and limit how much longer the battles will be. All they did was nerf the "kill the monk first" tactic.

Unfortunately, when they did this it was not in an intelligent manner. Before NF, the monks stood there and "took it", but at least they were healing themselves and their group members in the meantime. Now they leave the group area, and basically remove themselves from taking any part in the battle if you target them first. How smart is that?

With this AI, there is no need for any kind of tactic in my experience. All you need to do is set up a few heroes well, target the nearest critter, then do your best Leeroy Jenkins impersonation and you'll have a high probability of success. So for me we have gone from a very limited, but effective tactic to no tactic whatsoever. Sure, you can bring your crippling shot and other snares if you want, but it's neither necessary nor will it significantly change the outcome or duration of the battle. Don't get me wrong. I'm not for making a snare necessary for every battle. I'm not for making any ONE skill necessary for all battles.

So, yeah, it's frustrating. It's frustrating because it appears as they went after specific things instead of trying to improve the game. It's frustrating because they have given monsters abilities that aren't available to us - such as the ability to keep up with whatever you are chasing no matter how fast it goes. As people have mentioned, the bot farming doesn't appear to have stopped and they've irked a lot of players judging from the number of these forums. Players have always had the ability to increase the challenge level by taking smaller groups so there was not really even any need to do anything about that. So basically they changed several things unecessarily to achieve a certain effect and that didn't happen either.

No Sid it's not rubber banding....

I've seen a few posts now that say that enemies in ordinary combat seem to have charge/sprint capabilities even though they're not equipped.
They can move faster than they should.

The video is small but I didn't see any rubber banding - I saw a group of dwarves chasing him from one end of the map to another and then when trying to attack they would just run away.

Poor Sid... that's all I can say. I never called anyone a halfwit directly, I simply stated that anyone with half a wit, therefore being a halfwit would attempt to adapt to broken code. If you, yourself want to adapt to broken code, and place yourself into my "ordained" halfwit section, that it your business; not mine. I even recall saying I thought you were an intellengent person and not a halfwit... I did so in order to help the thread stay on target and I had no reason to believe you were as such... a halfwit... /shakes head.

Lag and server issues are not the problem. No rubber banding was taking place as said above. The video clearly shows mobs having perma-lock aggro, and "chicken little" behavior. Thus running before they even take a hit... watch carefully, those dwarfs are running as soon as he is heading at them.

Apply this same craptastic AI problems to entire groups of mobs where even the meleers are doing the same...

Now I understand some people are not seeing this, therefore they really have no input or understanding. Someone who's opinion and posts I often respect has rescently noted she had never seen this AI act in the way that video shows. I have no reason to disbelieve her, so I would have to say... this apparently is not a 100% thing for all players... which also means to me, it may be hard to track down and fix.

I have rescently been searching all over the net for other complaints from different people (since generally people stick to certain forums) and I found complaints about the "fleeing" AI all over the place. So it is not an issue of tactics nor "adaption", it's a case of buggered code.

At least we have seen Gaile post over at "another" forum and she states they are looking into the problem for us.

I havent seen enemies move faster than normal unless I'm having lag or server issues. And you dont have to see rubber banding for it to be server synching problems. I'm not saying that I'm 100% correct, but looking at it logically it looks more like synching issues in that video rather than A.I. problems especially since I've experienced a similar problem.

There's a problem with the synching of the location of the gnashers that are chasing you and the location of where they actually are. So the gnashers are always on your tail no matter how far and fast you run.

And if you try it with henchies that have no speed buffs and then sprint through a group of gnashers., the henchies will keep the gnashers from following you because they're too busy fighting the henchies. And as soon as you're a certain distance away from the fight itself, you'll rubberband all the way back to your henchies and gnashers.

Wow. Way to make an excuse. So if I said anyone who can't adapt to the new A.I. is a retard and since you choose not to adapt, then you're a retard? And that's excusable?

At least be a man and admit what you did.

Mods sorry for the double post. I cant edit my first post due to the forum lag.

Wow - what a cop out. You insult indirectly and you get called out on it and suddenly it does not apply. Wow - just wow.

So some people seeing it justifes reverting the AI back to the old mindless way?

The point that people wants the old AI basically means you guys are not really complaining about the bug but complaining because it is not the AI you are use to.

Really? I have 7 pages in this thread alone that can't even agree if the new AI is easy or hard.
Some can't even agree if it is about farming or not about farming.

There is no coherent argument about the new AI other than it is a new AI that you guys don't like.

There is one thing i'd like to know... how does A-Net know whether their community likes a change or not? The Feedback in the Boards about the changes are plenty and in case of the bugged AI indicating a great deal of not being satisfied with how things go. With the exception of a few spite posts which are contra everything, even the contra.

So how does A-Net really know how the Community likes the change? They allways state that the majority of players like the changes. How do they know? Do they have some kind of global telepathy system? Or do they take the lack of feedback as appreciation and celebration of the chance?

All i can see is a:
Horde of disappointed board communities.
Lots of frustration in the game channels.
Friends quitting the game in ever rising numbers.
Guildies leaving for good

This is not about adapt, or learning to play. This is about seeing an obvious bug and not wanting to deal with it. This is about friends, the very reason to play, leaving the game. What do i care if the sales figures rise? Of course they do, there was a massive advertisement campaign plus the change was maliciously made just a day before Nightfall Release. Of course the sale figures go up, most people didn't know yet about the fubar AI until after they bought Nightfall and found out themselves. And then came this "fix" which made things even worse, introducing new bugs by the second of release.

For those that still think the enemies locking onto you and chasing you down is an A.I. issue, here's what I found in just the last 6 pages of the bug report thread. From what I read I'm further convinced that the issue is a server/client issue NOT A.I.




And yes I do think it should be fixed.

Sorry all, partially my fault the topic keeps getting pulled off topic - I'll respond to only Ai related issues and refrain from commentary. I was ticked at the bugs at the time I said it... my fault.

Over at GWOnline, Gaile has requested infomation from those who are having the buggy AI. She also states that they are looking into it. Hopefully that means we can have a fix soon.

Since it requires an account to view over there, I'm sure one of the mods here will post what is being requested by the devs here soon... they usually do.

Good news indeed, hopefully they fix it soon.

Some people? What Bizarro world do you live in? This stuff is all over every major fanboard.

I couldnt have said it better myself. Your five points made absolute sense to me.

The problem is that the so-called "majority" that liked the changes are still here and of course still running around telling others to deal with it. The people that were dissapointed left, for good. So of course alot of what you see is "I love the update!", but is a that a true "majority"? While the others who want this fixed bring up valid points but are being called whiners and complainers for having their opinion. In the end, u get fanboys making Anet think they did a spectacular job. While the silent majority just doesnt even wanna bother. Over the past few weeks, my friends list has been shrinking in the amoutn of people online. My previous guild is dead, some of the players left for good. Also good friends of mine went straight back to WoW, when i was the first one to convince them to even try GW. So yes, the poll consensus is a "majority" approval rating for GW changes. While the true majority are playing CoD2, BF2142, WoW, and whatever else im not sure.

I know there gonna be people that are gonna post a reply and completely and utterly call me out. Before u do, i dont really care about this update. I pretty much saw it coming, but i didnt think that they would pull this shady act right before Nightfall came out. O well. Business as usual i guess.

You do know that fanboards are not a fair representation of players, right?

Anyway, on topic, I've not had any problems with the AI to date, yeah, they're a little more aggressive going for soft targets so you equip the soft skins with personal/area defenses.
As for running away...I find if you dont chase they'll stop fast and you can easily kill them with ranged attacks.

Lets say you're right :
Ok I guess I'll have to adapt to that problem too.... since anet wouldn't see that as a problem.

Damnit I think my mouse broke - nevermind I'll adapt

No, no one has said that you should have to adapt to bad server lag and client/server synching issues. Those issues should be fixed. All I'm trying to say is not every bad thing you guys were bringing up is an A.I. issue.

And go buy another mouse.

Enemies do have speed enhancements naturally. Avicara, Grasps and Scythes do, without any speed boost. That shouldn't be, I don't care if they are birds, then ettins shouldn't move fast either, Ettins should be moving with a 33% slow with all that girth, if we're gonna be realistic.

That Sid, isn't a server issue, it's a fact I have noticed playing for the 16 or so months I have been.

So you're saying because those specific enemies have speed buffs then all those other lag issues that me and other people have had with other enemies arent server issues? How did you jump to that conclusion?

Besides, I saw no mention of those enemies you specified in the bug reports people were submitting. Do you even know what issue we're talking about? We're not discussing "realism" here, we were talking about the fact that sometimes enemies will "autolock" on you and you can't escape them no matter how far or fast you run.

No rubberbanding, and I really doubt any lag was happening(that you get when alot of people are on a server), as these pics were take at 2:45am EST on an American server. Most of the chase(over 90% of it) I was about 1-1/2 aggro circles away, but couldnt break it. Then, when I went back, another started after me when I was about halfway away on radar(~same as spirit range). Pics are of same mob(not one in previous sentence), other NPC is Tolis.

Had a really bad occurance yesterday evening. Went back to Cantha to get the missing masters I needed for VSquare. The usual "flee" basd AI was there, so most of the fight was me hitting the AI from behind as they ran around chasing my monks. Wasn't hard, just slow moving and pretty dull. In the third "stop point" I ended up chasing the upper spawn away, which fled (I did not follow) towards where I just came from. The lower spawn point fled forward into the mission but couldn't get past the blocked gate there, so they stood there doing nothing. The middle spawn was the only one that would fight, at least till I hit them.
After clearing out the middle and lower spawns the gates hadn't opened. I had forgotten about the upper spawn. I went looking for them, found a few scattered here and there around the second "stop point", with the loss of time though, I had auto-lost the masters I was needing on that character, so I logged out.

Anyway, unless the second team was all humans, which it wasn't; had watched and blocked the fleeing upper group, there was no way we could have gotten masters, since they would spawn, run towards the stairs, stand there for a second or two, then when anyone or any hero/henchie got too close, they would take off running. Not one or two, but all of them. Not very aggressive for a mutant creature full of hate and spite towards the living... hehe

This is most definitely not a video syncing / lag problem. I can just about recreate the scenario i posted just about anywhere in the game involving a group of casters with melee support. However I've found that the enemies have a tendency to follow if they have hexed you with something such as life siphon or rust just as a couple of examples. I can only break aggro if i can remove the hex and get far enough out of range when they stop to cast again.

Happened to me in the Gate of Pain mission.
Every time I tried to pull a small group, or one or two of those Stryders, and accidentally pulled a larger group, or, if I was trying to pull the Emissaries instead for example, either way, and failed to do so properly, I had a group of 4-5 enemies chasing me down all the way back to the beginning of the map.
Part of me wants to say that's an AI problem and part of me wants to say it's the other issue you've all been talking about.
But when this group chases me down, then retreats a little (while I'm still running away) and then continues to follow again, on a repetative basis, I really think it's an AI issue. Maybe if they followed and didn't back off at all, but they attempt to back off and then continue to follow. So, it seems like both the "autolock" issue or just screwed up AI.
I still beat the mission, so it's not a HUGE hindrance in my playing, either way it needs to be changed.

Well there are a couple different issues going on since Nightfall:

1. Aggro circles seem to cover the entire map at times. Enemies will aggro to you no matter where they are.

2. Lag/client/server synching issues. Enemies will always be at your position no matter how far or fast you are on the map. Sometimes it will appear that there are no enemies around you and you're still taking damage.

Combine those two issues and you can have enemies that aggro to you out of nowhere and you just can't get rid of them no matter where you run or how fast. And sometimes if you run away from your henchies that are fighting the enemies, you'll rubberband back to the group.


.
.

Man i wish i had gamecam for every moment those mobs that I ran 3 circles away from can still aggro me the moment i take a step back. Its not even a rarely occuring issue anymore, is becoming a trend among almost all types of monster, melee, caster, whatever. No, i dont rubberband, they can just see me from that far away, cuz i stop frequently to make sure im not stuck somewhere but the server isnt in sync. W/e that fustrates me, but i wish i could start a GW showcase of all the wonderful AI occurences so far. They funniest one wins a cookie.

yeah running is super hard now

I've been seeing this a lot lately. I retreat from a near wipe and have the monsters follow me for miles. Then when they do stop and go back, as soon as I'm within radar range they start chasing me. I used to see this occasionally, but now it's pretty much every time I have to retreat. It's making retreating a pointless exercise as you can't get within radar range of your fallen comrades, let alone close enough to rebirth them.

lol, running is "bad" apparently. I cant even chestrun nowadays without watching my back for some mobs(and i stress the plural "s") that i aggro-ed almost 30 seconds ago. But then again, chestrunning is "bad" also.

I know they are trying to make the ai more realistic and the anti-aoe change that was long ago was acceptable. This new change in AI is just annoying. This is a game that most play for fun and for me this change took a lot of the fun out. Farming is a pain (all i farm for is gold to buy skills usually), controlling agro is annoying, the avicira who chase me from right outside drok all the way to the azzure near rankor is dumb (i used sprint/charge constant).

If i want realism i'll go PvP. When I play pve i want to earn exp, get gold, or complete missions, all of which are irritating now. I've played many mmo's over the past 5 years and the new ai is probably the worst I have seen. If the AI was like this when I started 16 months ago I probably would have never bought the expansions and would have quit long ago.

Did Anet hire some devs from SWG?

Its a shame this crappy system came out at the same time as Nightfall, for me it definetly took away from what could have been a GREAT expansion.

I have sent a note to check with the designers about the issues that you've reported. I don't have a response yet (it is the weekend now, after all) but I've asked for reassurance that all changes are intended or, if not, for an estimated timeline of when those things that are not functioning properly might be back on track.

I know we made changes to the AI, and there was a period from October 25 to the 31 when the AI was not functioning as planned. Some of the things that people mention have not changed since Prophecies. But obviously some things have.

We'll do a check on the matter and give you an update as soon as one is possible.

Thanks Gaile; could you also be sure to pass along the common opinion that the current state of the game is no longer fun, challenging or slightly enjoyable?

As we have seen, many of the problems are not effecting everyone. In this, those that are not having problems are un-informed and inexperienced (thus not on the same page) as those with the problems. This should be taken into consideration and passed along as well; therefore those with problems and issues towards the game state should be addressed first and foremost.

Smart business addresses problems and complaints... something ANet has done fairly well in the past. Please do not allow the devs to blow off the players with complaints simply because some people are not having addressed issues.

Thanks in advance for trying to help make the game fun and challenging again.

Edit: Not completely related to the AI issues I'm having; but here's yet another thread of "bored" players thanks to the current changes: here

Even many that are not having problems with the AI, like myself, are not enoying the game anymore due to rescent changes. Perhaps Anets devs would care to respond to such changes and keep players happy, vs the current path?

Well I took several screenshots of this but here's what the problem is Gaile, as you can see I didn't move during the little experiment, but as soon as I tried to get close to Rebirth and the mobs were on the edge of the map, it appears to me that the whole minimap is now a mobs aggro circle and moving back and forward slightly caused them to retreat/come back.

Needs to be fixed as it's ridiculous as if this is an "intended change" where you cant even get close enough to res, it really sucks, and is even worse in the Realm Of Torment areas.

If u would like a real good example of the aggro-system we have nowadays. Go to Ice Floe outside Marhan's Grotto in Tyria. Step by step:

1. Make sure u have a Mo/W or Mo/R w/ Spellbreaker. Many builds out there.
2. Cast all the needed enchantments before aggro-ing anything.
3. Run through the Mursaat mobs and see what happens.

Those mursaat will chase you for the ENTIRE map. Not just a few aggro-circles, not just a radar, the WHOLE map. After chestrunning there for more than enuf times that i can't count. At the end of every run, I have at least 8-10 mursaat chasing me non-stop even if i run them outta my radar completely. All i have to do is wait 10 seconds and they'll be back in aggro-range again leaving not enuf time for some skills to recharge since i cant spam SB. Honesltly, what was the point of the aggro-circle then? What was the point of the radar? What was the point of even running skills, if running is apparently a no-no now?

This is pretty funny to see. Just tried it... they indeed create a congo line. Did you get some from out of aggro range and off compass as well?

/sarcasm - Apprently to catch up with the "chicken little" running AI, or "flee-bots".

Thank you, Gaile.

just my .02 offering to this issue.

It is my understanding that monsters use to follow you forever back when you could lure char all the way back to the res shrine in pre-searing. When they added the ascalon title in they supposedly made it so monsters would gain experience again so you could actually get the title.

Is it possible that the 'new' ai issue of perpetual chasing is really old code that snuck back into the game as part of this title change?

I ran them outta the radar/compass completely, gave em 10 seconds, and before u know it, they're casting spectral agony on me again. U cant get rid of em. Its in almost every single map now, monsters might have changed but the same catch me if you can AI is still there.

Well couldn't rez Koss and Dunkoro as I ran and everytime I came back they would aggro on me right away again. Not to mention them doing 29-50 damage to me when I have 40 armor. BUT OH! I forgot it doesn't count as 40 until you are level 20. Duh.

Really really really annoying. Can't adapt when you have no skills to, because OH! They have them all in the endgame!!!!!! Hahaha damn forgot about that. Well not all of them but a good chunk of them, that should be in Kamadan. (Flail anyone?)

See, this is what I don't get. This is nothing new! I've had this happen quite a few times back when Factions came out. Just random mobs tend to spot you even off the radar, especially if you already encountered them, and half your party died. The second you go and try to res them, the mobs start running full speed from off the radar straight at you. They know exactly where you are and what you're doing, sometimes. This has happened to me a few times in Kaineng, and once in SF.

I've had lots of weird quriks with the AI long before this update. We can't write all this off as screw-ups from the recent update. No doubt, they still need to be fixed.

The rubberbanding issue has gotten a lot worse, I've noticed. Not just with the NF release, but about 2 weeks before that. Just seems to get worse and worse. I've had times where I will run half a zone before I realize there's no enemies, and my heroes are stuck 3-4 radars away. I then sometimes have to run all the way back, and just when I get within range, I bounce back in the middle of my heroes, like I never left. Very odd.