New Enemy AI

No no, sorry I have to specify things now, trying to do multiple things at once. This is EVERY group I encounter in NF. They all no matter how far you run, how long you wait ( you could wait a certain time before and they'd be fine) or who they are aggroed too (sometimes they only aggro on one person, so another can go in and rez, happened in FoW) they all come. It got worse since NF came at least for me, I don't know why I'm singled out like that but that's what happens.

Anyone else noticed this other darn behaviour? If you see a patrol crossing, with a ranger in the group laying down a spirit, you can let the patrol go away without aggroing anyone, they go away, and as soon as you attack the SPIRIT the ranger made you'll see the entire group running towards you, from circles away O.o

This AI is frustrating...

frustrating. that is how the new ai affects the customers, whether they think it is easier or harder or whatever, the common fact remains that it has made the pve experience frustrating.

i dont understand why anet had to make the pve ai more "human". in pvp, you deal with 12 people at most, not waves and waves of mobs. no. pve is designed differently from pvp. ai is never supposed to be in pvp so there was no reason to design the ai to act like it was required to defend itself in pvp. and if ever that was what they wanted then a general rebalance of all mobs in all pve maps is also required otherwise you end up with masses and masses of crazy aggro.

and frustrated customers. customers who have already quit the game in frustration.

so i don't care if the ai made life easy or hard or whatever. we can all say it made it frustrating and anet needs to fix that. not stay the course until they bleed customers away. already i have gotten frustrated with the game. its just stupid, totally stupid.

I think Anet intended the AI to be like this as they put AI in pvp...Heroes in HA and GvG, so you might be wrong there.

QFT

been this way since Factions came out, that I’ve gotten used to it.

I actually thought this was the only use for Rebirth in PvE: to ressurect a party member that is dead within danger zone of monsters and bring him to your safety, away from the thing called DANGER ZONE. With that, the Danger Zone is a mere indication of what is earshot range, and needs to be called from now on Earshot Zone. If you lose half party, you will all have to die to regroup, instead of rebirthing. Now, how you can manage that in Shrineless areas? G'luck

This used to happen sometimes, yes, but it was never a consistent thing before the AI update.

My favorite method of leveling up heroes has been to take a couple of them and a couple of henchies, go outside of Senji's to The Skyway, and kill anything that moves -- rinse and repeat as needed. That area's pretty easy, but even there a few low level heroes in a group of five or six, plus the general and constant risk of agroing more than one Jade Brotherhood mob no matter what you do, can sometimes spell disaster. When things start going belly-up, I run, usually with a couple of surviving heroes/henchies in tow.

Prior to the release of Nightfall I'd done the Skyway rounds literally hundreds of times. When something went wrong the Jade Brotherhood would generally chase you about halfway over the nearest bridge. If you went any further than that they'd give up and go back to what they were doing. Wait until they've wandered off, go rebirth the dead henchies -- no biggie. Now they chase you over the nearest bridge and halfway over the bridge after that, they don't wander away for eons, and when they do they auto re-agro on you the second you come withing radar range. Fleeing a bad situation has become pointless, if you don't have the firepower left to take out the mob you will never get close enough to rebirth anyone. To put it mildly, this takes a strategic element out of the game and renders anything save a res you can use in battle, basically meaning a res sig, worthless.

Yes this used to happen occasionally, but so ocassionally that when it did happen it was a serious "What the...?!?" moment. Since the AI change it has happened every time I've had to flee, at least five - six times in the last week or so.

Actually the rubber-banding has gotten much better for me. For the first week or so after Nightfall's release, any time I stopped to cast BotM I teleported back anywhere from dozens to hundreds of feet back. Skill delays were getting seriously annoying, and the dreaded 007 reared its ugly head a couple of times. In the last couple of days things have gotten much better, though. No teleporting back every time I stop and no skills deciding to activate whenever they get around to it. Offhand I'd say the server load is starting to level off.

To further the chasing issue. In Nightfallen Jahai, I was chest running with 3 Hero's to die for me. So a chest was by the Onslaught boss, I sent the Hero's in got the chest, they died before I got out so they chased me for about a 1 second not chasing me to far. I went down by the mesmer boss, to the southeast towards the assassin titan boss, then towards the paragon boss in the way south near the entrance. Didn't find no more chests so went back to the west by the portal to the Jahai city.

Well as I was on my way back, I had to pass by the Onslaught boss, whose about 10 minutes before, aggro I had. So I'm running towards them, about 2 aggro circles away....THE BOSS AND THE REST COME AFTER ME AGAIN! and chase for me for a little bit, I got away alright but still that is ridiculous beyond all belief. It was almost 10 minutes I had broken their aggro and I was over 4 radar (or compass) lengths away from that damn group, there was no reason they still had to be locked on to me. Could be a bug, I'm not sure but it was only that group.

Also Scythes use a speed enhancement and will follow you for a minimum of 5 aggro circles and a maximum of about 8.

If Anet ever fixes this stuff, well they will get an apology from me for being so cross on this subject. But it's kind of hard not to and kind of entertaining to see stuff like this happening, annoying but entertaining.

Do I like the new Ai No, have I learned to deal with it yes.

After playing all day Saturday leveling up my heroes things started to finally click. I still don't like the Ai but it is manageable, so far. With the new Ai just using henchmen will not cut it any more heroes are a must. My W/Mo has been running around with a healer, mm and nuker hero and a healer, holy, motivation and earth hench. Things are fun again. The critters still run but not very far

I do wish things would go back to the way they were but I don't see it in the future. So I'm dealing with the Bar Room Brawl fighting style we have now.

I don't have nightfall, and it just struck me that I'm one of the ones thats had almost no trouble with the stated issues. I've had some rubber banding but that's about it. Do you guys think its possible that nightfall was initiated with a different 'base ai' that reacted differently to the update than the older, much tweaked prophecies/factions?

Most of the people with problems seem to have problems in Nightfall or with characters from elona, while I (the one that doesn't have it) haven't been affected that much.

But that's just my two cents

That could well be one factor; nice thinking. Though I know of a few people having Nightfall and do not have all (but do have some) of the issues posted.
I saw one player Saturday in a town asking for anyone to join him for a test on the AI. He was asking for people without the "chicken little" effect to join him.
Myself, having the "chicken little" issues didn't join him, but I spoke with him a little. After finally getting a group together, he whispered me and said those without the issues had finally seen it, and many were shocked how bad it was.
The second time out, the "chicken little" effect was gone and the AI was working the way it used to.
The way it varied seems to point to a sneaky bug... and since it's sporatic... it may be hard to trace down.
Now, I know his first group was in Elona. As for the second, I have no idea where he was. I didn't think to ask, but I assume he went to the same area as before... he may have very well gone to Ascalon though...

I've noticed odd AI behavior as well. For instance during the consulate docks mission every time I target an enemy monk the monk will run right at the party, usually right into my heros. While this makes taking the monk out much much easier it can't be the way the AI is intended to function. There is definately a bug in there somewhere. AI breaks down to, in simplest terms, a collection of IF/THEN statements. It could be that in the algorithms governing enemy AI there are conflicting IF/THEN statements or improper values in some of the equations.

I don't have nightfall and I've been seeing this everywhere. My first video was from tyria and here is another: ( http://youtube.com/watch?v=BwkV6QY05lE ) this one is of the "newly improved" Lornar's Pass where i manage to get by only to lag near the trolls and have the never ending aggro army catch up to me.

I haven't noticed any issues whatsoever yet with the AI... perhaps it's just playing styles? See mob, kill mob, mob doesn't chase me.

That's how I play as well, but I have really bad issues with the AI. It's also been mentioned that not everyone is having the problems, so it's not a matter of "everyone needs to play the same" (and that's not a flame, as we play alike) to avoid or "work-around" the problem; it's a matter of Anet fixing the problem... which Gaile said they are working on.

Sometimes I approach mobs to kill them, and they all run off. Not just casters or monks, all of them. I stop running after them, and then they might come back to me.
Best and funniest so far was when I went out to solo farm and my "as-small-as possible monk with pigtails" caused three entire groups of mobs to flee. That was cause for some good laughs. - Made funnier, since mobs usually insta-aggro any monks even out of compass range.

As you can see in the post, farming is possible as I've been doing it just fine. It's when I try to play the game through; the glaring AI issues jump up and bite me.

I've had the enemy healer running at your group occurence several times, usually when his own group is blocking any retreat for him.

What I've noticed is that if you let him go by forcing your group to target enemy melee/casters, he runs past your group and stands to the side/back, healing his people from behind you.

So I am presuming that his programming directs him to run away but stay within healing area. The AI doesn't limit where he runs though. Devs need to add an IF "players are there"/THEN "don't run in that direction" branching.

And STILL some of you can't tell the difference between A.I. issues and server issues..... If you want something fixed at least do some research on what is actually wrong before you complain....

Dude, both Server/AI issues are "issues" regardless of which is which. BOTH need to be fixed. So the complaints are valid to the extent that all of which are still problems. Doesnt matter what category problems belong in, a problem is still a problem.

Did I say that server issues didnt need to be fixed? All I'm saying if you dont know what you're complaining about, it won't get fixed. Too many of you are just screaming "The A.I. sux!!! Change it bak!!!"

I don't think a boss group re-aggroing on me with me being 2 aggro circles away from him, after having been away from him for 10 minutes and a pretty far distance..is a server issue.

I also don't think Kournan Priests running at me ahead of the guards is a server issue either, as they weren't going in between anyone to get stuck, they just ran at me like they were gonna wand me from up close.

Radar and aggro issues are server related. The synching is screwing up the positions for each enemy and where your team actually is. That's why sometimes you'll get aggro from varying distances or get hit by invisible enemies or can't outrun enemies the entire map.

Basically the server and client are not in synch, what you see is different than what the server sees.

Sid Soggybottom's Post seem to be centered around trolling. Sorry if i'm to say this. Server issues are something completely different than AI Issues and no one is mixing them up. Repeat. No one. Except Sid.

Server issues include rubber banding, connection errors, positioning malfunctions or routing problems. Strange behavior is an AI Problem, not a server problem. So please, stop spreading the nonsense that the problems with the AI are Serverproblems when in fact they aren't.

Oh brother. So because I have a different opinion on what is actually going on, then suddenly Im a troll?

I love how people can't even discuss things with someone without pulling the "troll" card. Tell me exactly how I was trolling dude. I've even made several posts describing my points in detail. If you can't understand it, doesnt make me a troll. Look at yourself maybe.

And if you've read my previous posts, before you opened your big mouth, you would have seen that I DID explain why it was a server issues because of positioning malfunctions.

My experience has been, the foes run away so you can't hit them or you get over run by more then your intended to get. Like the arrgo bubble is larger then being shown, and yes hench/heros are not arrgoing others by mistake.

Then there is the fact that they chase you forever and also have quite a long range on their weapons. Much longer then normal.

No, I unaggroed from them they didn't chase me at all. My team was dead, I was the only person running around. I broke aggro, then went about their own business. When I came back that way 10 minutes later, I got about 2 aggro circles away from the group and they came after me. Thing was it was because he was already locked on to me that when I came back he came after me again, how do you think that's a server issue? Rubberbanding I think would be a case of syncing, but not that. Because they weren't in a different spot and everything was on par, they just weren't broken off of me aggro wise completely even though they had left me alone and hardly chased me.

Because it seems that positioning has been screwed up. Mobs might seem closer than they actually appear. And the fact that melee weapons are hitting you from far away. As show in the post just above us:

I don't know if Siggybottom is right or not, but it does look plausible that the problems are from server problems. I had the invisible enemies thing hitting me even when no one was in sight happen to me and then suddenly I'd warp back to the enemies. And aggro bubbles seem too diverse in ranges to be a set programmed A.I. thing.

So is it a server issue and is he right? I have no clue. But I don't see him as a troll. You on the other hand, come off as one yourself.

Agro is broken, mob returns to its normal position/patrol, you get within radar range and they re-agro, how is this a positioning issue?!? They are not closer than they appear, they've returned to their normal patrol route. This is an AI behavior issue, not a desynch issue -- especially as what I'm describing includes no symptoms of desynch (enemies hitting you from miles away, you or enemies rubberbanding, ect.).

Ah yes, go ahead and flame me. I don't care.
Sid Soggybottom's Posts were overly aggresive and insulting in the form of an Analogy.

If i may quote you. And as people told you that they're not complaining about server issues but moreover about AI Issues you just got more aggresive and tried to stir up more flames. That's trolling. Downright there and quite simple.

Doesn't have anything to do with your opinion but moreover with the way you force it into this thread. Your opinion isn't even an opinion to start with. You just want to make yourself look smart and superior by attacking the bugreports of the others. Nope sorry, you're just another "gnuaaaarrr sT0p d@ wh1ning" Troll that crawls out when a point is made and brought to discussion. Yes. This analogy insult was intended.

@Childe
Doesn't matter if those things sound plausible. Positioning mistakes are not AI mistakes. People point at AI mistakes and not positioning mistakes. If a mob sees you from a larger distance, that's not a server issue. If he chases you across the whole map. It's not a server issue. If he wands you from a larger distance it's not a server issue (height difference). If enemys aggro lock on targets, it's not a server issue. If the casters start running and run for hours, it's not a server issue. AI Issues are not Server Issues.

I can vouch for that behavior as well. Mobs tend to be a lot more aggressive, particularly if you are running to try to res. You'll lose them and they will return to patrol and then you can be two aggro bubbles away from them and they will start to run at you. There are no desynching symptoms when this occurs, none of the texture draw in or mystery melee hits normally associated with desynch. Another clue that this isn't a desynch issue is that if given enough time, I mean like a good ten to fifteen minutes, this behavior ceases. It's almost as if they enter a heightened aggressive state when they are initially aggro'd and this state persists for a much longer time than I think they intended for it to, if they did intend for such a behavior to exist at all. That is one of the complications of AI scripting though. The more complex you make an AI the more unexpected interactions you get with the IF/THEN statements.

Funny. Your post smells more like trolling since you've only posted to flame me, whereas I was trying to make some discussion with some points.

So who is the troll here?

Aside from all the new agro problems and playing red light green light with enemy AI while trying to rez your team. If we are going to be forced to baby sit a NPC at least they can give us a way to control them. The body blocking and invasion of toons personal space for escorting npc’s is a pain, having to run around the npc to attack another target, or them running off to attack another mob as soon as one mob is down. And I don’t see why casters have to be body blocking me when I am playing my melee character.

Flagging the position of hero’s and henchmen isn’t all that great at times I have them flagged so I can pull if I have Olias or Master of Whispers in my party I have to set them behind everyone else other wise they both run past the other flagged hero’s to attack the target I am pulling then the other follow making flagging them getting them to stay pointless.

Last is the enemy AI running off and end up aggoing the map, I don’t mind them breaking away to heal but when you have to chase them or better yet when your henchman and hero’s will not break off the purist even when you call another target, this type of pvp tactic doesn’t work well in a pve environment because you have enemy AI missing form a pvp environment. Yes a lot of people hate a part of the game they don’t play because it’s not why they play the game.

But then again these are all the same problems that have been around since Factions.

No I didn't get hit at all, they came to me from their area. I mean I seen them move from their area, the 2 aggro bubbles or so it was to me. They were minding their own business till I went back and they re targeted me. I was running to fast to be hit by anything but they came, they weren't actually hitting me.

Myria says it best, that's what happened.

I agree with Amity and Truth completely with both what is going on with monsters running across the map to attack you (not actually hitting you, but chasing from several aggro bubbles away) and his assessment of what Sid constantly does throughout these forums. Sid seems to have gone into troll mode again.

Yeah, I've noticed this more aggressive aggro as well.

Used to be that only a few of the tougher areas would have AI that would be quite so aggressive in "remembering" you from a previous engagement. Mobs such as the mindblades mesmers and vengeful aatxes in UW in particular had a VERY long aggro range once you've aggro'd them once. And these are the guys you'd most often be running from due to a party wipe. Rebirthing in these areas was always fun.

But it seems like in Nightfall, almost _every_ area is a "hard" area. Most mobs will remember you attacked them long after they've gone back to their patrol patterns. I generally trust sprint to cause them to forget aggro, but these days, I'm not sure how far I have to sprint away. Maybe 2 radar ranges away, but that's rather difficult if there are still several mobs roaming the map.

Anyway, last night I was hunting ruby/diamond/sapphire djinn and their roaring ember friends.. got taken out a few times (just gotta love the way henchies group together w/ "mistrust" on them).. unfortunately the res shrine was about 2-3 aggro circles away. And as soon as we rez'd the mob would come running for us..

The only reason I was having my party rez'd at the shrine was due to their long range of aggro, since they would all come for me even when I was rebirthing about 1.5 aggros outside of their "normal aggro".. I would live, but invariably they'd take out the hench/hero I just rebirthed.. it got pretty pointless to just add to their dp.

The long aggro range doesn't bother me too much, but it can be annoying sometimes since it's unpredictable which mobs will do it, and which won't. Many of the high level insect mobs won't, but many djinn's and harpies will.

Not only that but the fact that they can cast and attack while running and doing lots of damage to you, and you can not do that to them in return.
Any casting or attacking makes you stop, thus bringing them closer to you and with them all the while attacking while you are not even in range or while they are still moving, so it seems to me.

lol ya, I dont remember the temple mish in kaineng. the temple guarding would have 3 to 4 "breath of fire on us", thats like 100+ dmg per second poor monks

Wow. What's with you people? I disagree with some of the opinions and I'm a troll? Coming out of nowhere just to post to say that I'm a troll seems more like trolling behavior to me

Last night a guildy and I went to VOG to open the sides etc for map title, once there the agro was weird. Sure lots to fight etc, nothing new there. But when he needed to res, etc.. the mobs that made recent kill would run back and keep chasing us. They were at the bottom of the valley when he approached to res using rebirth, they charged back at top speed and hovered over the dead henchies etc.. So he would retreat, they would also, then as soon as he got near the dead (half radius away) they would fly back and stop him with interupts etc..

Also he would run back to closest portal and almost have to leave and rezone efore they would break off after chasing him all over the valley. Oh and the monk boss (lil purple squirt) runs up and back all night, he never attacks just plays tag and runs away. We finally trapped him in a nook and opened up on him. Lil sucker is funny as hell but most likely a glitch.


In mineral springs the killer chickens chase you thru the portal and beyond.


Hope it helps,

Just did a run for a guildie from pikens to LA. For the most part I had no trouble, just the usual problems for an amateur runner. However, in the area outside grendich I saw evidence of the bugs everyone is talking about.By the time I hit portals in several of those areas I had 3 or 4 mobs following me. Usually when they hit the end of the next mobs normal 'end chase' line(twice their own normal aggro) they might stop chasing me. But I could tell from the number of banishes hitting me I had much more than normal.

I came too close to dying in a place I had no business dying. I'm still betting that nightfall is being much more heavily affected than tyria or cantha, as no other section of the run(other than those two) behaved abnormally. Because they were alone in their strange behavior(even the normal zones occasionally had a lone follower trailing me) I know they were unintended glitches. But the glitches are apparently less frequent than in Nightfall.

But that's just my two cents