Petition to kick NPC out of HA

Great, another person who posts without reading the thread. Majority of the complaints is not that the heroes are too powerful, its that its too boring rolling through them. The fun factor of HA (fighting with real people against real people) is gone. That is the problem...

I'm still having fun. I like having a team who gets the simple concept of 'follow targets'. So again. /notsigned

heroes are far from "so powerful" and if you couldnt coordinate a spike or "follow targets" with a real team, then you absolutely do not deserve to play any form of PvP, im sorry...

to quote myself from another thread,

It's that simple m8, i would rather win/lose to real players, then win against heroway...

/signed

the can't get in a group thing is no excuse go back to PVE.

This is obviously turning into a low-experienced vs high-experienced players thread.
The thing is, what apparently alot of lower-experienced people are forgetting, is that the higher-experienced players where in that same situation as you are now. Everyone has been a noob, you cant deny that. The fact is, the lower-experienced players of today, just want an excuse to be able to fight the big dogs.
You wanna know why r10-11+ players only play with people from the same rank, its because most of em have played with the same people for over months now. They know these people, and know if they are good or bad at certain positions.
What i still think that is important in HA, is that you meet people that you can play with, and that they know you for how good you are at a certain position in the team.
If your not a good player at anything, fine, not Anets fault, not anybodys fault, train, and you'll be accepted alot more, stop whining about not getting groups.
If you want to get your fame up with heroway, do it, nobody really cares. Will you get known by better players in HA because you have that illustrious hero below your name ? No.

All i see in all these posts is how good heroway is cuz the heroes listen to calls, and you can make groups faster and stuff. But will you get to learn anything from doing this? Not at all. You dont learn new strats on any map, you are solely relying on your own decisions in a battle, which will never make you a better player then you are at this particular moment. People learn from mistakes, thats as simple as that.

You want these heroes to stay because the 'higher-ranked' people dont take you in their groups? There are 2 answers to that: 1, you really gotta train at a position you like, a position that is necesary in practically every build, and 2, play with people from your own experience, we all had to start the same way, dont look for excuses because you started PvP later then the rest of us.

i love the heroes as a mesmer, makes it so i dont have to work with stupid henches, and also i dont have to look for more sophisticated people to work with which takes to long to do.


However, i did really like having real ppl in HA, so im gonna sign this, just dont make it so heroes arent in pve, they work really well, i like them in PvE


/halfway signed

Did you play HA before NF? Can you honestly tell me that you're having more fun fighting NPCs than real players? I can tell you the vast majority of HAers prefered fighting real players. If you like fighting AI, theres another section of the game for you, its called PvE. Stick to it if you prefer to fight AI. PvP is where real players fight other real players.

Not entirely. I believe his point was that if you kick all the AIs out of HA it'll still be the exact same teams that are exactly as easy to beat - just it'll be humans running the crappy builds instead.

Personally, all I care about is having a place where I can play straight up annihilation with heroes. The Hero Battle gametype can be fun but it gets old and I'd prefer a simpler gametype to prototype builds in. I couldn't care less if they do it through HA, letting heroes in TA or a new arena altogether.

Lord Mendes, you talked to yourself @ post #243. omg

http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showp...&postcount=243

Yeah, but there the issue becomes the metagame itself, because you'll have human teams running around. AI cannot evaluate what is going on around them on the battlefield. AI, particularly in GW here, cannot adapt and change like the players do in PvP. It really doesn't matter if the AI is running an identical build to what we'd see when heroes are banned from HA, because the potential for change is nonexistent with AI. There isn't even a metagame when AI is present when you really think about it.

I mean, after a match in HA versus other human players, what usually happens? Each player on the team contributes to revised strategies and tactics. This is one of the elements of communication that make PvP so worthwhile. Everyone there gives his or her insights into the strengths and weaknesses of the team build, and offers ways to improve. You're getting five to seven different viewpoints there, which can only expand one's knowledge of the game and open new avenues of build design, both for the team and the individual.

There's no communication like that with Heroway. AI can't offer any type of advice in terms of what was being countered where, and what types of problems certain elements of the build suffered from. The strategizing and revision after Heroway loses is minimal at best, because it's only one person using a limited scope of game knowledge. That one player sure as hell does not specialize in everything--especially if said player is a newbie to PvP.

That's precisely why I generally don't design Monk or Ele PvP builds. I never play Monk or Ele. Anything else, I'm down with. Necro, mesmer, ranger, assassin, warrior, ritualist, and very likely paragon. I rock house there. Especially mesmer. I'm pretty much a one-man wrecking crew when I'm in the zone as a mesmer.

Furthermore, my lack of experience doing monk and ele is exactly why I can't (and don't) offer advice to the monk and ele players on my team. I can't offer reasonable, respectable feedback. I won't positively contribute to the metagame there. I know I can't be trained in everything. There are always going to be at least two professions throughout the entirety of GW that I will never attempt to design builds for, and this holds true with most players I imagine. Everyone has limitations.

And a single newbie human trying to command/revise the builds of five AI NPCs is not learning anything due to those limitations and the lack of other humans on the team, who specialize in those particular professions that said newbie human doesn't know very well.

GW is a team game. You need a solid team build, but more importantly, you need solid team players.

A post-heroes HA game environment that still features Starburst will be annoying, definitely, and troublesome. But those human players have a vast pool of knowledge from which to develop new ideas, to revise strategy, or to devise counters. HA has a lot of potential to change here with Nightfall's new skills. The metagame has a lot of potential to change here with NF's new skills.

The problem is that all of that potential doesn't matter because of heroes totally distorting HA. Once we get rid of the heroes in HA, we'll see the metagame shift, especially when people start getting into paragons, as well as the new necro and mesmer skills.

Hell, I think balanced teams will see a renaissance of sorts, because of the cross-conditional effects/requirements of NF skills.

/notsigned

no comment

/notsigned

Newer players need a way to get rank so they can accually be accepted in HA groups. ArenaNet finally allowed this by letting heros in. Untill there is another way to let newer players get rank, I'm not going to sign this.

/signed

/signed

Newer players can get their rank without heroes/hench. Many people started VERY late in pvp. I know someone who started only a month and a half ago, only played balance (no fame farming gimmicks), didn't get into high ranked groups or anything and is now rank 9. The new players need to stop whining about how the high ranked players won't take them in their groups and start making their own groups or join other unranked groups and get their ranked. And guess what, high ranked PUGs usually aren't that great anyways, I can tell you from personal experience. 99% of all good HA teams come from the friends list (or guild list). I've seen unranked friends list groups beat r9+ pugs. So how do you start of? Join/make unranked groups, friends list the good people, and well it all goes from there. Farming your rank up with heroes isn't going to get you anywhere. Unless your some pver who just wants to flash his cool deer emote to go with his Fissure Armor. Heroes are good for that I guess. But if you actually want to get into HA, like I said, Heroes will get you absolutely no where. See Mr Seph's post if you want more info, he did a good job explaining stuff.

The whole concept of an MMO RPG is playing with people and not with NPCs.

The NPCs are just there to help a group out, not to give a noticeable advantage over their opponent.
I'll Explain this. NPCs are originally created to offer assistance to those who cannot find or join a group. For missions and quest.

Yes, it is great to have NPCs around, and people think its the same skill-level as players or even worse. But Its not as it seems.

Yes, players may give feedback, advise and words of encouragement. Also the advantages of thinking for yourself and knowing where to move.
But the recent addition of Heroes, and the buffing the NPC AI and cause this balance to be lopsided.

Heroes are controlled by GW's AI. Its a computer, which processes and compute things way faster then any normal player. GW's AI also had a complete makeover over the past few weeks. More aware of their surroundings and of their opponent's next move. Their micromanagement for things are incomparable to those of a player. Relate this to games like Starcraft or Warcraft III. Players can only micro and do so much at once. However a computer can do all of this in a matter of seconds. Things like keeping track of who is wounded on their team, and also track those who are about to die in the opposing team. Same to running away from A.O.E or attacks and returning to safety.

In addition, a hero can also switch to manual control to its owner. It would be controlled by the owner and the owner can position them in strategic locations, Which makes up for the strategic positioning for a team full of players.

The addition of Player/AI controlled Heroes is a good thing, but should only be restricted to help you progress within the game. But since this combination of PvP with Heroes is already in effect, Players now are reduced to People counting with their fingers and toes VS. Modern time Calculators.

/signed

/unsigned

As a long time PvEer it is so hard for us to get into some HA action and earn some fame. For once we have customisable henchmen (heroes) which are good enough to do some HA. Now the same losers that excluded us from their teams turns around and whines?

Not a chance, if you can't win against the heroes you have no business playing in HA, still less excluding other players from your teams.

Generik, Your post contradicts the other.

"As a long time PvEer it is so hard for us to get into some HA action and earn some fame."

"if you can't win against the heroes you have no business playing in HA"

This would mean those PvEers who doesn't have nightfall would have a much harder time getting in some HA Action, for everyone would be using Heroes and the number of extras in HA would fewer. And once in, they would probably have a harder time beating HA.

With this, There would be a new type of Elitist, 1 or 2 man groups other then its original 6.

This problem only seem to have occured when the new addition of Heroes and Nightfall was released.

/unsigned

2 reasons...

1: This allows Players Who want to HA the ability to form their own team and learn/gain rank sense so many HA player wont even let you enter or speak unless you rank3+ and state build there after.
2: I feel if we build them, help run them to maximum performance then they are deserved and no different then a skilled player in a proper build. After all they do need help from time to time.

I don't think anyone's disputing that a good guild group (or at least friends) is better than anything else. However, if you were suggesting that more can be learned from a PUG than a hero team, I don't think you've played in many PUGs recently.

/unsigned

I think heroes is so far the best solution to the rank elitism issues and ironically in pve I've had rank9 people be some of the worst players because they IWAY'ed to their rank.

/signed

Reason is that NPCs, no matter how smart they are, they are still programs, with playing against people, you have surprises and laughters, that's the distinctive difference between PvP and PvE.

I guess what good thing is now the Rank req's will die.

Since you can run Heroway and get rank.


Lol and you'll never see LF R9 Heroway!

As much as I hate fighting zaishen, i mean heroway 24/7, I can see the use of it, so I'll offer a compromise here. Put in a 3 real people limit in HA. This way, the newer players will only need to find 2 other people and their heros to form a group, and the experienced people can not have to fight the 1 man + 3 heros + 2 Hench teams anymore.

Here's why I'm for heros in HA. I can EASILY form a group of 6 very high ranked people off my flist most of the time, however, sometimes there's times where you are missing that 1 person, and I certainly wouldn't mind making an NPC and micro-managing it to round off the team. I can guarantee you that 1 hero under control (well micromanaged) won't affect the quality of the team that much and will perform up to ~95% of the full team's capacity anyways, plus I much rather have a NPC hero under someone's control than some random r9+ PUG.

Now, what would be GREAT, is if they made it so if someone err-7s, the guy who e7 is replaced with a hero under the new "leader's" control with the exact same skills/armor/weapon. Now THAT'd be good stuff.

Not every big group requires fame to let somebody in. Mostly it requires being able to play a certain build. Like Shocker... I mean I can still pick out the IWAY-ONLY players... Dude can u go SB, because we have 2 monks already. So I dont need to take a pet then? HA needs real players if i wanted to have a laugh I'll go to the Jade Quarry (or whatever it is called)

/signed PvP and PvE keep them separated!

I mean last night our monk dropped the res orb outa nowhere and everybody was laughing and stuff...
Or are we going to give our Hero's voices too and them be able to sign into our TS.... It's true AI is going to take over the world

Not a chance, if you can't even get a team of real players you have no business playing in HA.

Look who's whining here, "Nobody want to play with me please get me some henchies so I can play T___T". It is hard for pver to get into HA or any PvP in general that's not because u do pve, it's because you are not good enough for that particular game style. If you want to get into a team go observer mode and observe, why should anyone waste their time to teach you? That's just as stupid as someone expect you to farm 10 green weapons for some complete stranger.

Henchmen are not good enough for HA, they are there to make up the number so losers like you can actually click "enter". If you read the other post you'll see everybody can beat heroway.

2 weeks later you'll realise you cant win with heroway and u'll start crying again, then Anet might have to improve the your hero friends' ai so they'll actually ping on the map telling you where to go ping the target u should be on and ask u to use a specific skill and u may eventually stop crying.

It's people like u that screw up HA. You go in and expect to get fames and get ur cool deer, if u cant u cry and blame the high rank players that dont let u leech their team. If you really enjoy the game you should just go in and play the best u can, if u lose u think about why u lose and learn from ur mistake, see what others do and learn from them, try to understand the game better, be a better player. Every high rank player have done this. You need to understand the fun of HA (or PvP or the game in general) is not that getting the fame/reward, it's the game itself.

I just cant understand those saying they cant get a team because they are unranked, why cant they just go make an unranked team? Please please tell me the reason.

HA is for people/people

Hero Battles is for hero's/people

The only place heros should be allowed in pvp is hero battles..cuz ah common sense here.

and plus, do you really want the favor system to rely on henchmen?....being in america i say hell no

/signed

I am SOOO sick of bringing a group full of friends into HA and only finding heroway.

Ah, so how do I get to play as the Ghostly Hero? As you say, HA only has players involved...

err... is that a sarcastic remark?. that has no relevance to the concept of removing heroes from HA. Ghostly Hero is somebody you are to defend. a NPC that can not be controlled by anyone.. It shouldn't even be mention. Plus its been there before the new Heroes system was introduced

AI was never allowed in HA, EVER. Ghostly Heroes, Minions, Pets, and Henchmen are all just myths.

/notsigned
if u cant beat Hench, wat chance do u have against decent teams?
also i think 6v6 > 8v8 for hA.

Henchmen and Heroes are no where alike.
Henchmen you only have rally control over them.
Heroes is fully customizable and also the rally control.

The chances against a decent team full of players would be better. Heroes are controlled by AI, therefore computing and microing moves and actions much faster than any normal player.

Its like "People counting with their fingers and toes VS. Modern time Calculators"

wanna tissue?

There's the irony of your assessment. Guild groups (or at least friends) don't just appear out of nothing.

Example. I hooked up with my first PvP-minded guild through a friend's HA PUG experiences with them. After I joined the guild, I needed to set-up Vent and TS, and then also started doing GvG fairly frequently, specializing in mesmer, and often would call my own builds, because my guild mates knew that I knew what I was doing.

HA was similar. They'd have a basic role for me to fill, and the rest of my skill bar was largely up to me, because I knew what would fit within the framework of such a character goal. I would have never gotten that HA experience (actually, the entire PvP experience) had I not had those connections born out of PUGs.

Don't be so quick to shrug off PUGs, man. Yeah, a lot of them have the craptacular insta-leavers when things go bad, but the good PUGs are the ones that build your networks. I'm no longer a part of TCS, but the experience there was still invaluable, and that entire run with TCS came out of a networked PUG group from a friend of mine.

My current guild, Rare, has a similar story; Desbreko had hooked up (PUG) with Savio & CO for some Grenth's Footprint/Sorrow's Furnace runs, and joined the guild a month or so after that, in fact leaving our original (and inactive) guild of QKT. I was already part of TCS at that point. I did some AB with Rare during the Factions preview weekends, with that temp account we created, and shortly after that, when TCS and I went our separate ways, Desbreko hooked up my official account with a guild membership.

The membership in Rare lead to more networking, hooking up with a few different groups for a variety of different game modes, especially after the alliance feature was introduced. When MEEP is doing GvG, I always make sure to see if they have a free spot open. A call for AB over alliance chat usually grabs one or two people from SMS, sometimes even a MEEP. HA, same deal.

All of that came from a networked PUG group from a friend of mine.

And then, I've got a few good, solid players for HA on my friends list, that I met through PUGs.

PUGs themselves aren't bad. It's the lousy PUGs that are bad. But even a bad PUG is better than heroes, because at least with a bad PUG, you've still got humans on your team, and thus, the potential for intelligent feedback and build design growth and improvement.

'

lol, "to quote myself from another thread".
I wasnt talking 2 myself, just quoting myself.

IWAY noob! /jk :P

/signing again cuz i feel like it.

read the arguments nub...

sorry i was sleepy

Never. Your so-called AI is nothing but bunch of scripts with predefined behavior. If you can't fool it, try better. I agree heroes are better at interrupting and attacking called targets than average but so are skilled players. If you constantly lose to hero team, thats because:
1. You're bad/average player
2. You aren't bad but foe is better which means that he knows how to set hero builds, knows how to equip them, knows how to control 4 characters including himself..
If 2 then he would probably defeat you anyway in decent human team.

/notsigned

Hey, pro-nub, while u r posting here, heroway winning HA.

/signed