Petition to kick NPC out of HA

@Siren

I'm not trying to say that there wasn't a significant amount of Heroway happening before the mass exodus from HA (the second exodus, really), I'm just saying that it got a lot worse afterwards.

I was in HA on the night NF was released. I saw about 1 Heroway every run - and made it to the hall almost every run. So, in a 2-3 map run (not counting the inital PvE map) with generally 1-2 three or 4 way maps - that's 1/5 Heroway.

After a few hours, that picked up to maybe 2/5, tops.

I came back a few days later and noticed 2 things:

1.) HA was EMPTY.
2.) When you did finally scrape a team together from the people left in HA, it was roughly 4/5 or more Heroway inside.

So, did PvPers leaving cause heroway influx?
No

Did it make it worse?
Yes

/signed

HA you learn, heroway decapitates skill, oh look i can put skills on my ele hero and watch him nuke st00f@@@@@ But will your learn from other players? Will you learn strategies? No. YOu'll learn how to manage hench like you do in Pve.

You guys speak as if Heroway Diversifies HA? Lol? 80% of HA is heroway under Dark Chambers, and of these teams 90% of THAT heroway runs Multiple elemental heavy teams with Searing/Old School Fire Ele.

I would LOVE No heroes, to let people actually play hard matches, and not a "Win or lose in 2 minutes flat".

its true heros ruined HA but lets put it at it this way... we delt with BS like this with iway now that thats dead we gotta put up with this. All i can say is what doesn't kill you can only make you stronger right? .... iway forced poeple to play better i believe this will do the same. This doesn't mean i approve of heros. I think HEROS SHOULD STAY IN PVE REALM!!!

/SIGNED, heroes are dumb anyway, its just discouraging teamplay on Anet's part.

Helios, absolutely. It has gotten a lot worse since the "second Exodus."

But really, can you blame the serious PvPers for leaving? It wasn't worth their time to continue to go up against Heroway as it became more and more prevalent, and as it became more and more obvious that ANet, as per what Gaile has said, is not going to prevent heroes from entering HA.

Serious PvPers are in it for the thrill of combat, for the challenge of facing a team of live, human opponents. They don't enjoy wasting their time slapping around NPCs when it's never going to benefit them. So when they're seeing a lack of action taken (and damn near reluctance to even consider taking action) on the parts of the dev team to correct this problem, why are they even going to have an interest in pursuing HA? It'd be a waste of their time.

So the cause of this prevalance of Heroway still is the fact that Heroway exists in the first place. If heroes were restricted from HA, we'd still have actual HA matches.

HA being dead before NF is a result of stagnant gameplay itself. The skills haven't significantly changed for a while and in turn, the builds haven't needed to change. Nightfall gave us a lot of new skills to consider. That is what ANet should be focusing on moving toward HA. Not heroes.

People talk about Song of Concentration. That's exactly what should be happening. The new skills should absolutely be implemented in HA. When the paragons start rocking out in HA with those shouts, that's when we need to see people bringing mesmers and necros with NF skills in their bars.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where there are so many newcomers suddenly playing in HA. Take a look at observer mode's match selection but don't be fooled by seeing all of those HA matches. 12 HA matches mean absolutely nothing when there's likely only 24-26 players there TOTAL, as opposed to what could be possible with full teams of human players (a 6v6v6) scenario, with 18 actual human players in one match. What you're saying is incorrect, because it's not as if so many more/new players are now playing HA, due to the fact that a 6-member team usually only needs one human player. And what Gaile has said is absolutely incorrect, because heroes do not allow more players to play. All heroes do is make it so there are less human players on each team, which absolutely sucks for those who understand what competition actually is.

Well, stepping back, regardless of quibbling over wether or not whiney PvPers exacerbated the Heroway problem, we still agree that Heroway was the start, and is still the root, of the problem.

I mean seriously WTF was ANet thinking with this whole Hero thing? I mean it's a complete destruction of every Multiplayer element of the game.

It completely negates ANY need for ANYONE to every talk to another PLAYER again.

Wanna run a PUG? Why bother? HEROS!
Wanna farm? Need a SS/Healer/etc? HEROS!
Need help running a hard mission that the henchies just can't hack? HEROS!
Wanna PvP but no one will let you join a team because you: a noob, annoying, unskilled, unknown, or they're just generally pricks and you don't feel like taking the effort to START YOUR OWN DAMN PUG!!!? HEROS!

Seriously, they should just have made NF a single-player offline version of GW and let those of us who enjoy MULTIPLAYER games keep doing our thing.

/notsigned

Let ppl have fun with heroes. If you can't beat em, you should probably stop playing because you suck.

Absolutely. A reasonable restriction would have been limit one to a player at any given time. That's actually what I thought they were going to do in the first place. If one player can only bring one hero, then to fill a team for anything, we're at the very least looking at having half a team comprised of human players, which would be a hell of a lot better, and certainly more closely aligned with what the henchies are *supposed* to be for: filling out the team.

Troll much?

If you can't beat AI, you can't be too great...

Wow, man, you really just crystalized the entire argument with a superb one-liner. Trolling? Nah, you damn near revolutionized the sport.

dude, they have hero's battle.
What's the point of hero's battle now.

Running heroway in hoh is not taste they should be getting.

Using hero to get a taste of hoh is cheating yourself. Yes you get your fame, but you don't learn jack nor you would be having any fun for long.

We're not elitist, we just want the unique pvp experience that hoh offers. It's now completely ruined.

example:
all from the god damm 3 team broken tower.

Two heroway vs my human team: we got gank 12v6 because we're human players.

Two human team vs one heroway: One human team capped, then guess what the heroway team do, they go full out attack the team that does not have altar.

GG heroway. If you're using heroway in hoh, it will not do you any good. You will never have the full hoh experience. You have zero respect from hoh players regardless of your rank.

I'm loving the new ability to take heros into HA, as it allows me to finally have a shot at things in there.
Before, everything in HA was 'r6+ ranger team kthnx'. Failing to be of that rank, I was bunched with a party of whammo half-wits or similar.
When, once a week, my guild was online, we'd be doing GvG, which is great fun.

Naturally I've been playing HvH when I'm on my own, and I am indeed somewhat put off by these 1-man HA teams.
But I DO like the fact that I and another guildie or two can go in and attempt some serious PvP, test builds, just about whenever we feel like it.

/signed

This isn't normal AI, this is sets of player unique AIs created frome the thousand skills currently available along with a pair of henchmen. This is also a human controlled AI which can pick targets correctly call retreats and plan spikes. Hero teams work as a unit without worrying about communication. In PvE heros are more reliable than many PuGs. In PvP, my teams always played carefully against henchway because if you let your guard down they'll kill you with focus fire.

One of these days a one player Tombs team is going to hold HoH and I'll be laughing it up. No one ever wanted to admit that they lost to IWAY, yet someone had have been getting owned for those groups to continue as they did. Keeping Tombs a player only affair promotes community and kills some of the monotony.

Culture shock post-- your idea does not apply since there is no existing culture and we the people that make up the culture have some choice in the matter. Several times at the players request, A-net has changed something. Your thinking we should have just accepted all the shortcomings of the game. Culture shock is going from Tombs to GvG and back, what currently is occurring is a huge demographic shift in those participating in Tombs-- hardly culture shock.

LMAO, that would really show them,wouldn't it? Now, you can't prepare for anything, but to fight for your own life, or get owned.

That's funny stuff.

100k to the guy that gets that done

Owned Elitists at my feet...PRICELESS!

or...nerf fire eles with their 119 and 147 damage skills for <= 1 cast time.

I wouldn't say you suck if you can;t beat heroway...Anyone with a brain can control two to three heroes as well as themselves. I beat lots of good teams while using searing flames the past few days.

BTW i decided that I am elitist, apologize or my haxing tiger shall devour you!!! Then I'll join your group because no rank 9 players HA anymore.

Culture shock? Now that I think of it, seriously, it can be somewhat considered in that light.

The PvPers are a GW sub culture, in the sense that they stay amongst themselves, appear xenophobic at times,and will constantly go into tirades about being"Leet". If their culture as a whole feels threatened, then won't they all retaliate against the encrouching insurgents?

GW may not be considered a "Culture" in the global dynamic sense of the term, but within GW,PvPers can be, hence the thought of culture shock can be made relevant when applying a PvE scenario forcibly upon them.

Forced to deal with that which most look upon in that sub culture as being inferior, they take action to be against said action.

But,if they are proved to be the inferior, then what do they do?...Cry to their respective mommies about the game is garbage for doing what they did.

The Elitism is what caused this, and it won't end until the Elitism stops.

What exactly is elitist about wanting to play against more than one actual player in online PvP?

First off, /notsigned

I find this thread hilarious. You feel challenged and threatened because a couple of NPC heroes and one person can beat you? Learn to play, please.

Anyways, someone will flame me for that, but seriously. If you want people to stop using heroes, give them a reason. Invite them into your group. I see no reason for someone to wait for a group of other people their rank when they can simply load up some heroes and go.

If you're going to be elitist about rank, I see no reason for us, the unranked/low ranked, to respect anything you have to say.

/notsigned

Someone needs to answer this question.

/signed

Get heroes out of HA asap. Why?

Because HA is PvP, and PvP stands for Player-versus-Player. Playing against bots, put quite simply, is boring - or in other words, it can never match up to the excitement of fighting other players.

The opposition again and again are bringing up this argument that 'If we cannot beat the bots then we shouldn't be PvPing.' It's not about that at all. It's about enjoyment of PvP - and heroes in HA change that to boredom of PvBot.

In the first place, ANet contradicts its own promotion of teamplay. They nerf solo farming in PvE to get people to play with other players, then they add these all-customisable Heroes to the game? Someone tell me what exactly ANet was thinking. And that's PvE - then they dare to bring them into PvP, to the height of skill and team co-ordination gameplay?

Heroes and henchmen are not players therefore they should not be in PvP battles in the first place. An arena was created for Hero use and that is where they should be kept in the PvP islands.

If the people that are playing Heroway are low-ranked and can't get into good teams, then maybe... oh wait, should I say it... maybe... maybe that's the fault of the rank system, and the rank system is the thing that needs changing. And that's an age old discussion. If people are playing Heroway for fun, then the question needs to be asked, why aren't they playing in the arena created specifically for Heroes? If that Arena isn't good enough, maybe that needs changing.

And that's all I have to say about that.

yes yes and yes... get the hero's out of ha its pvp not hero arena's

I love it. I keep seeing the same thing over and over: It's PvP, not PvAI! Newsflash, there is at least one player on that AI team. It's still PvP, even if it's 8Pv1P. The heroes can be built from the ground up by the player and micro-managed to an almost human-player extent. What exactly is the problem? Seems like it would take more skill (but very possible) to win with heroes, thus introducing a new potential.

Instead of shunning it, embrace it. Try a 3P+3H build. Try adding a godly AI interrupter to a 5-man build.

I dont have fun beat heroway in ca. 1 min
I want play pvp .
Heroes go to Zaishen Challenge !

/signed

I have pwned ur teams, and i will keep pwning them (with or without heroes) until u give up HA... and that will never change.
I'm sorry but these l33tests ur hench are beating are actually cookie-cutter twats that cant play for schit. The good players will still walk all over u and ur AI friends, rank u in the face, and make u quit HA.
/signed, id rather beat six of u excited skill-less retards because it is so much more fun and makes my epeen grow ten times bigger.

rank is the most insignificant measure of PvP skill, and i have played with horrible players that sport a tiger (or even phoenix). Rank has absolutely nothing 2 do with heroes, and if you think that you are good because you (or actually ur heroes) can beat a rank9 team full of IWAYers, that in no way makes you leet.
Do i feel threatened? hell no. On the contrary, i laugh at heroways that still lose when they r ganking me 12v6, and i dont feel challenged one bit. I feel bored.

for all types of pvp the team should be half made up of human players at a minimum.

HA is a joke when 9/10 teams (at least untill you hit the 1st relic run anyway) are 1 human player teams.

Yes its easy fame but if I wanted to steamroll AI or npc's i'd be playing pve, not HA.

And how about a compromise? Heroes will be available to all players below r3. When they get their rank, they lose heroes.

/signed

Not that beating heroway after heroway after heroway playing only that searing flames build is bad. Its amusing to win matches in under 1 minute and all, but after 1-2 hours of this, you kinda want a challenge. After 6v6 was introduced in HA, alot of top-pvp'ers left it for what it was, cuz its just no fun anymore.
Now, Anet introduces the heroes into HA, some top-pvp'ers still play it, for getting easier fame, others leave cuz this makes things even more boring.
I used to play HA sometimes for 5 - 6 hours a day, now i cant stand sitting on a chair farming Heroes for 2 hours in a row.

I agree with this completely. Yesterday, got ganked in halls by the non-holding team (we werent holding either), and their motivation for doing this was: "We are not stupid, we are r6, everyone knows you have to kill the highest ranked group first in Hall of Heroes."

Edit: I think even Anet sees the dying evolution in the international districts in HA though.
With 8v8, there were 4 id's in euro times. They changed it to 6v6, it ended up with 3id'd, and now with all the heroes, its 2 id's in the oh so fun euro times.

So you're just saying you want real players so they can be dumb and stand in nukes or not kite as often, become less superior... I find the ability to add Heros a more of a challenge at times, with their reflexes buffed.

And to the fool who said that's what Hero Battles are for, Hero Battles is a horrid layout. Cap bases and fight to get 20 kills with dumbed down faction, not worth my time. Last nite I did HA with Heros and Henchies and beat a real team, I had 3 monks, my 2 hero monks and me, as I locked targets for my interuppter and other characters. If you guys can't beat it, learn to do better than because it's obvious it's human error that cannot defeat Heroway if you can't.

I don't think people would come on here and complain simply because they aren't real. I can however see for example the original poster complaining because he lost to them and is disgraced he lost to bots.

Go to team arenas if you want real PvP. Oh wait, I forgot these elitists would rather die without their precious rank that absolutely means nothing in other PvP aspects of the game...

I see you dont really get the point here. Most of us players are not complaining about losing to heroway. We are simply saying that heroes make HA incredibly boring. Winning from searing flames eles on every map with 1/2 guys controlling them just isnt really that hard.

But hey, its not called 'Heroes' Ascent for nothing i guess ....

I'm sure u r a noob if u prefer having heros in ur team or u actually think heros are better or u are not good enough to be accepted.

And then what? They'll still be just as green, they'll just be rank 3 beginners. By playing in teams in HA you learn how to play there. Playing with heroes teaches you nothing. Essentially you just admitted it's a fame farming mechanism. If you want to play HA do it the right way and maybe learn something.

If you think PvE, err sorry I meant the current HA is even a slight taste of what HA use to be, you're mistaken. Guess what? Inexperienced players could get a group before. There were plenty of unranked groups before, join them and work your way up like the rest of us did. And honestly, even if now you can get yourself an NPC group in seconds, what is it gonna do for you? Do you honestly even enjoy it or are you just grinding it up so you can flash a cool emote?

You're right, games are meant to be fun, I completely agree with you there. The HA experience of fighting with other real players against other real players was a very fun, enjoyable experience. Thats why I and many others played HA. But now its just get some NPCs and grind vs other NPCs to get a cool emote? Is that your definition of fun? Because I can tell you its certainlly doesn't fit MY definition of fun.

The "newbs" could have their fun before by making their unranked groups and playing with real people against other real people. Right now, no one is having fun (at least not MY definition of fun...). The only people are happy are the ones who don't care about fun and just want to grind up a cool emote...

Its not because we can't beat them that we are complaining, its because its ****ing boring to beat them. The fun element is gone. "Let ppl have fun with heroes" ? Nice joke, rolling through NPCs is not fun, IMO. The old HA was fun, the new HA is grind for ur cool deer emote with heroes. See my post on pg 7 for more info, not gonna repeat my rant over and over again...

See response to above quote, actually why am I even responding to you? You obviously haven't read much of this topic. Its not that we can't beat them, get that through your heads people, its that its ****ing boring to beat them.

Wow, how many ****ing times so I have to say this. Its not that we are losing to NPCs, its that rolling through NPC teams is NOT fun. Fighting with a team of real players, vs another team of real player IS fun.

Heres a damn good reason. To have fun! Man, who'd of thought of that one. Playing with NPCs vs other NPCs is not fun. Playing with other real players vs real players is fun. And that is why you take the time to form or join a group. Unranked players can find groups as well as make their own unranked groups. Stop acting like its impossible to start off. Its not. I know people who started unranked after factions or even later (at a time when the whiners say its only r6+ or r9+ groups and anyone else it is impossible to HA) and only played balance builds (formed unranked balance grps) and are now well respected r9+ players. Best of all they had fun playing that balance.

I'm not being elitist about my rank. ANet could remove fame/rank for all I care. I just want the FUN element of HA back...


Finally, I love how all you people saying who want Heroes to stay can't respond to my post on pg 7. I clearly countered all the main points in that post. If you can prove anything I said there wrong, please do. But untill then it seems my post (and anyone posting similar stuff) is right.

Everyone knows that if they kick the npc's out of HA then normal humans will just take on there roles. i.e. Star burst elements with 2 monks or 1 monk one rit.

If everyone is really gung ho about nerfing cheap builds limit the number of primary professions that can go in per team.

Using Starburst is an issue concerning the metagame. It's irrelevant here.

/signed

I want to fight against real people !

One or two heroes/henchmen is ok, but not when there are 90% of the team !

/notsigned x 100000

Learn to PvP. You wanna know why heroes are so powerful? Because they take the skills they're ordered to and follow targets. Maybe if you tried something better then a pug, you'd own them. gg.